I'm reading this fascinating book right now and it attempts to answer all these questions that economists wouldn't usually waste their time with. One of the more mainstream questions that the authors address however is why did crime suddenly plummett in the mid-90's.
In the late 1980s crime was still described as epidemic and it had been rising for the past twenty years at least. All these experts were predicting that by the year 2000, crime would be the worst America had ever known as it would continue to climb each year. But soon after the U.S. reached the early nineties, crime had suddenly began to drop consecutively and dramatically each year after. Most experts were confounded and attempted to justify why their predictions were wrong.
Many people were attributing the drops in crime to innovative policing techniques, others to the increase in numbers of police and police department's budgets. They were even claiming that the socioeconomic gap between blacks and whites had been greatly reduced which helped reduce crime. Many of these theories were partially correct. But what the author of Freakonomics claims is that probably the biggest factor in the crime drop is one that most prominent economists had failed to acknowledge. And it was a single event that would dramatically change the face of U.S. politics and economics, respective to crime especially.
This even was Roe v. Wade. Before this famous court ruling in the 1970s, there were only a few states in the U.S. that one could legally have an abortion performed. But after the Supreme Court ruled in favor of Roe, a legal abortion could be performed at just about any medical clinic in the U.S. The result of this were millions of women from that day forth having abortions.
What this all had to do with crime was this. Most women who wanted abortions were either single, poor, uneducated, or all of these things. Statistically, most criminals in the U.S. come from families of lower socioeconomic status. It is also statistically true that most criminals are in their criminal prime at the ages of late teens to mid-twenties. So basically, as the 1970s rolled around, millions of babies that would have been born to low-income single parent families, were simply never born. They were aborted. A large portion of those babies that would have been born, based on statistical analysis of criminals would likely have become involved in crime in one way or another. By the time the 1990s came around, these babies who were never born would have been in their prime age for committing crimes. Only thing was, they didn't exist. They were never born. And so as people expected crime to continue to rise into the 21st century, criminals became a much smaller portion of the population and crime dramatically went down as a result.
This may be offensive to some; the notion that abortions made crime dramatically fall, but it makes a lot of sense to me. And the book presents all the demographic data that supports this theory. Obviously there were other factors that made crime fall, but the authors argue that the most overlooked and probably most significant factor in it was legalized abortion.
I highly recommend this book for many other reasons as well. It discusses why today's public school teacher cheats as much or more as the average student. It discusses why so many crack dealers live with their mothers when the assumption would be that they have lots of money. It talks about sumo wrestling and the incentive for some sumo wrestlers to cheat in matches. It's just overall a fascinating book.
Haha, that's a really interesting theory. And it makes so much sense too.
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"So I like climb out the window and I fall because we’re on the third floor , but it’s cool, because I land where my arm used to be, but it’s not there so it doesn’t hurt. And I’m thinking, yeah, man, this no arm thing is kinda chill."
So, basically Crime didn't stop, it just ran out of "gas" then?
Not something to be proud of... "Oh we didn't change anything, we just killed the future criminals!" Right...
I dont think that they were thinking "w00t, were killing future criminals", they were probably more concerned with the abortion and young single female mothers and finances and all that
And I dont think anyone was proud of it either, as Siaynoq said, most economists seem to be ignorant of the cause or only partially correct
Personally, If I was trying to think of all the possible factors that would decrease crime I would not think about abortion but I can see were the guys coming from
Im seriously considering getting this book if i can find it in NewZealand though
So, basically Crime didn't stop, it just ran out of "gas" then?
Not something to be proud of... "Oh we didn't change anything, we just killed the future criminals!" Right...
Yeah, you can never completely get rid of crime. And as Genesis was saying, no one was really hailing legalized abortion as this wonderful method to wipe out crime. The book merely says that it was an unintended consequence of Roe v. Wade for crime to go down dramatically.
What the authors of this book do is work mostly with data. Polls and statistics that tell an irrefutable tale. But what the economist of the book does is dissect that data and interpret it in a very naked and real way.
Don't get me wrong, there are bits of social commentary throughout the book, but it's more like pointing out such ironies as while white suburbanites everywhere were emulating black culture, so were black people emulating the corporate culture of rich white people. This irony was in reference to the way the Black Disciples of Chicago ran their crack business in the very same way that McDonald's and Wal-Mart functions.
A sociologist who was doing working on his doctorate was initially studying why black people remained disprortionately poor in the U.S. But while doing his field research, he stumbled upon members of the Black Disciple gang who nearly killed him, but somehow he convinced them he wasn't a cop or a rival gang member and he got to hang out with this gang for a couple of years and learn inside and out how the economics of crack was affecting poor Chicago neighborhoods. And before the gang was eventually raided by the federal government, one of the higher ups in the Black Disciples who was the gang's treasurer, gave this sociologist their ledger that tracked all sales and costs of their crack industry. What this sociologist learns from all this data is utterly astounding.
Man, i have this book and my uncle says that i should read it. o.O
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''May the Gods give you the strength and power to bear the madness which flows through our minds.''
''Zubin, I've always imagined you as a crazy raver. The kinda guy that spends all night dancing to trance music while waving glow sticks and popping ecstasy.'' - Murderface
''May the Gods give you the strength and power to bear the madness which flows through our minds.''
''Zubin, I've always imagined you as a crazy raver. The kinda guy that spends all night dancing to trance music while waving glow sticks and popping ecstasy.'' - Murderface
I dont think that they were thinking "w00t, were killing future criminals", they were probably more concerned with the abortion and young single female mothers and finances and all that
And I dont think anyone was proud of it either, as Siaynoq said, most economists seem to be ignorant of the cause or only partially correct
Personally, If I was trying to think of all the possible factors that would decrease crime I would not think about abortion but I can see were the guys coming from
Im seriously considering getting this book if i can find it in NewZealand though
No no no. I didn't mean it that way. It's just, when you think about it along the lines of "We killed the future criminals...thats why there is less crime..." It just kinda...you know...messed up...
No no no. I didn't mean it that way. It's just, when you think about it along the lines of "We killed the future criminals...thats why there is less crime..." It just kinda...you know...messed up...
But that's the beauty of the book. It is merely taking the data and telling the story of the data. Statistically, most criminals come from poor single parent families. And most abortions being performed were by poor single mothers. And once abortion was legalized, the majority of them were had by those same mothers. Literally hundreds of thousands to begin with and abortions remained on the rise.
I also forgot to mention that in those states where abortion was already legal: New York, California, Washington, Alaska, and Hawaii, crime had dramatically fallen in those states before the rest of the states in which abortion was illegal.
But that's the beauty of the book. It is merely taking the data and telling the story of the data. Statistically, most criminals come from poor single parent families. And most abortions being performed were by poor single mothers. And once abortion was legalized, the majority of them were had by those same mothers. Literally hundreds of thousands to begin with and abortions remained on the rise.
But doesn't that say something? We try and fail at lowering crime then we fuck up and legalize abortion and then ta-da, less crime.
But doesn't that say something? We try and fail at lowering crime then we fuck up and legalize abortion and then ta-da, less crime.
I don't know, maybe its me. Just seems....
As I said, no one was trying to lower crime via legalizing abortion. The reasons for the Roe V. Wade ruling are in no way related to crime whatsoever. But the drop in crime was an unintended consequence. No one thought back in the 70's that legalized abortion would have that effect.
Your reaction is actually a common one. But I still don't understand why people are so indignant toward this unintended consequence.
As I said, no one was trying to lower crime via legalizing abortion. The reasons for the Roe V. Wade ruling are in no way related to crime whatsoever. But the drop in crime was an unintended consequence. No one thought back in the 70's that legalized abortion would have that effect.
Your reaction is actually a common one. But I still don't understand why people are so indignant toward this unintended consequence.
It's not that I am so much upset as I am supprised. I mean sure, abortion was legalized for its own reasons, but shouldn't we be trying to help them and raise our kids right so they don't end up having babies, or even better, teach them not to take what isn't theres?
Then again with the kind of government and entertainment we have its not a supprise that kids go around stealing and fucking without a pill/condom...
(Government refering to government in general, not dems or repubs or liberals or conservatives.)
It's not that I am so much upset as I am supprised. I mean sure, abortion was legalized for its own reasons, but shouldn't we be trying to help them and raise our kids right so they don't end up having babies, or even better, teach them not to take what isn't theres?
Well, education can't always alter human behavior. And most women who get pregnant in their teens, they usually had mothers who also got pregnant in their teens. So it's a viscious cycle.
And sure, everyone should try to raise their kids right. But I suppose it's never quite as simple as that. For a number of reasons.
Quote from "LinkX" »
Then again with the kind of government and entertainment we have its not a supprise that kids go around stealing and fucking without a pill/condom...
It may seem bad in the U.S. But keep in mind that over ninety percent of the population growth is taking place in underdeveloped countries. But the correlations between population growth and crime rates have yet to be studied as extensively. I would think an overpopulated country would have more crime, but the U.S. is not as overpopulated as many other countries and yet we still have a lot more crime relative to other countries.
Well, education can't always alter human behavior. And most women who get pregnant in their teens, they usually had mothers who also got pregnant in their teens. So it's a viscious cycle.
And sure, everyone should try to raise their kids right. But I suppose it's never quite as simple as that. For a number of reasons.
True. But that's still not a get out of jail free card for our public schools. They are some of the worst schools in the world. Our kids are, essentially, the Alabamians of the Earth, no offense to Alabama or its people.
Quote from "Siaynoq" »
It may seem bad in the U.S. But keep in mind that over ninety percent of the population growth is taking place in underdeveloped countries. But the correlations between population growth and crime rates have yet to be studied as extensively. I would think an overpopulated country would have more crime, but the U.S. is not as overpopulated as many other countries and yet we still have a lot more crime relative to other countries.
I don't see the problem being as much overpopulation but more economy. Of course the gov is going to say the economy is great, but where is it great? The slums? They don't usually vote so they don't count! Then the American doller is going down in value too. Shoot, the Canadian doller is more then the American Doller for the first time in history! The government can say whatever it wants, our economy is fucked all to hell.
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In the late 1980s crime was still described as epidemic and it had been rising for the past twenty years at least. All these experts were predicting that by the year 2000, crime would be the worst America had ever known as it would continue to climb each year. But soon after the U.S. reached the early nineties, crime had suddenly began to drop consecutively and dramatically each year after. Most experts were confounded and attempted to justify why their predictions were wrong.
Many people were attributing the drops in crime to innovative policing techniques, others to the increase in numbers of police and police department's budgets. They were even claiming that the socioeconomic gap between blacks and whites had been greatly reduced which helped reduce crime. Many of these theories were partially correct. But what the author of Freakonomics claims is that probably the biggest factor in the crime drop is one that most prominent economists had failed to acknowledge. And it was a single event that would dramatically change the face of U.S. politics and economics, respective to crime especially.
This even was Roe v. Wade. Before this famous court ruling in the 1970s, there were only a few states in the U.S. that one could legally have an abortion performed. But after the Supreme Court ruled in favor of Roe, a legal abortion could be performed at just about any medical clinic in the U.S. The result of this were millions of women from that day forth having abortions.
What this all had to do with crime was this. Most women who wanted abortions were either single, poor, uneducated, or all of these things. Statistically, most criminals in the U.S. come from families of lower socioeconomic status. It is also statistically true that most criminals are in their criminal prime at the ages of late teens to mid-twenties. So basically, as the 1970s rolled around, millions of babies that would have been born to low-income single parent families, were simply never born. They were aborted. A large portion of those babies that would have been born, based on statistical analysis of criminals would likely have become involved in crime in one way or another. By the time the 1990s came around, these babies who were never born would have been in their prime age for committing crimes. Only thing was, they didn't exist. They were never born. And so as people expected crime to continue to rise into the 21st century, criminals became a much smaller portion of the population and crime dramatically went down as a result.
This may be offensive to some; the notion that abortions made crime dramatically fall, but it makes a lot of sense to me. And the book presents all the demographic data that supports this theory. Obviously there were other factors that made crime fall, but the authors argue that the most overlooked and probably most significant factor in it was legalized abortion.
I highly recommend this book for many other reasons as well. It discusses why today's public school teacher cheats as much or more as the average student. It discusses why so many crack dealers live with their mothers when the assumption would be that they have lots of money. It talks about sumo wrestling and the incentive for some sumo wrestlers to cheat in matches. It's just overall a fascinating book.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
So dumbasses like me can understand, because that does sound pretty interesting
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
Not something to be proud of... "Oh we didn't change anything, we just killed the future criminals!" Right...
I dont think that they were thinking "w00t, were killing future criminals", they were probably more concerned with the abortion and young single female mothers and finances and all that
And I dont think anyone was proud of it either, as Siaynoq said, most economists seem to be ignorant of the cause or only partially correct
Personally, If I was trying to think of all the possible factors that would decrease crime I would not think about abortion but I can see were the guys coming from
Im seriously considering getting this book if i can find it in NewZealand though
What the authors of this book do is work mostly with data. Polls and statistics that tell an irrefutable tale. But what the economist of the book does is dissect that data and interpret it in a very naked and real way.
Don't get me wrong, there are bits of social commentary throughout the book, but it's more like pointing out such ironies as while white suburbanites everywhere were emulating black culture, so were black people emulating the corporate culture of rich white people. This irony was in reference to the way the Black Disciples of Chicago ran their crack business in the very same way that McDonald's and Wal-Mart functions.
A sociologist who was doing working on his doctorate was initially studying why black people remained disprortionately poor in the U.S. But while doing his field research, he stumbled upon members of the Black Disciple gang who nearly killed him, but somehow he convinced them he wasn't a cop or a rival gang member and he got to hang out with this gang for a couple of years and learn inside and out how the economics of crack was affecting poor Chicago neighborhoods. And before the gang was eventually raided by the federal government, one of the higher ups in the Black Disciples who was the gang's treasurer, gave this sociologist their ledger that tracked all sales and costs of their crack industry. What this sociologist learns from all this data is utterly astounding.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
Like a cat, tied to a stick
Fuck you, I'm a dragon.
''Zubin, I've always imagined you as a crazy raver. The kinda guy that spends all night dancing to trance music while waving glow sticks and popping ecstasy.'' - Murderface
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
Cuz there was one on mine.
''Zubin, I've always imagined you as a crazy raver. The kinda guy that spends all night dancing to trance music while waving glow sticks and popping ecstasy.'' - Murderface
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
No no no. I didn't mean it that way. It's just, when you think about it along the lines of "We killed the future criminals...thats why there is less crime..." It just kinda...you know...messed up...
I also forgot to mention that in those states where abortion was already legal: New York, California, Washington, Alaska, and Hawaii, crime had dramatically fallen in those states before the rest of the states in which abortion was illegal.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
But doesn't that say something? We try and fail at lowering crime then we fuck up and legalize abortion and then ta-da, less crime.
I don't know, maybe its me. Just seems....
Your reaction is actually a common one. But I still don't understand why people are so indignant toward this unintended consequence.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
It's not that I am so much upset as I am supprised. I mean sure, abortion was legalized for its own reasons, but shouldn't we be trying to help them and raise our kids right so they don't end up having babies, or even better, teach them not to take what isn't theres?
Then again with the kind of government and entertainment we have its not a supprise that kids go around stealing and fucking without a pill/condom...
(Government refering to government in general, not dems or repubs or liberals or conservatives.)
And sure, everyone should try to raise their kids right. But I suppose it's never quite as simple as that. For a number of reasons.
It may seem bad in the U.S. But keep in mind that over ninety percent of the population growth is taking place in underdeveloped countries. But the correlations between population growth and crime rates have yet to be studied as extensively. I would think an overpopulated country would have more crime, but the U.S. is not as overpopulated as many other countries and yet we still have a lot more crime relative to other countries.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
True. But that's still not a get out of jail free card for our public schools. They are some of the worst schools in the world. Our kids are, essentially, the Alabamians of the Earth, no offense to Alabama or its people.
I don't see the problem being as much overpopulation but more economy. Of course the gov is going to say the economy is great, but where is it great? The slums? They don't usually vote so they don't count! Then the American doller is going down in value too. Shoot, the Canadian doller is more then the American Doller for the first time in history! The government can say whatever it wants, our economy is fucked all to hell.