Yes...I can see your guys' view on their honor in the modern terminology and common sense. But remember that every household in japan..."at the time"...were farmers. They believed so dearly that honor was the greatest thing to obtain. Being able to "serve" their lord was such a big honor to their family and village.
Honor in japan was just as great as being titled as a knight in Great Britain. Having the title of Knight brought enormous respect to the person..."honor".
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Those before me shall quiver in my wake as I unleash the fury within!
I'm not doubting for a moment that honor was important to them. But I am suggesting that those lords who employed the Samurai might have used the theme of honor to manipulate them and make them do things that were in fact not honorable. But in order to retain their honor, the Samurai had to do what they were told lest they be stripped of it.
I'm not degrading the concept of honor. I think it is an important abstract concept that people can live by and be righteous. However, if retaining honor simply means obeying orders, do you not see how a more educated and crafty lord might abuse those beliefs?
It is a tough choice to make. Although many people do go with ninjas because they are agile and asassins of the night. As kids many boys dream of being a ninja because of all the cool things they see on TV and in the games they play. But it is a false representation of ninjas.
They were a ruthless breed of assassins, who would work in groups under the cover of darkness to intrude on an enemies territory in order to take out their leader. This would usually take place when a commander or leader of a group of people would be unsure of their ability to win a battle and therefor would try and termiate the enemy commander and end a war before it began. Where is the honor in that?
Using weapons such and katars, throwing stars and the weapon commonly mistaken for a samurai sword. The ninjas would use their stealth and agility to travel within a camp without being seen or heard to accomplish their mission.
Samurai's on the other hand we honorable men. They would train day in and day out so that when the time came, they could serve their community and their country. It is true that they would rather die then be defeated and in many cases they would take their own life instead of being slain by an enemy. But this was their way of dying with honor and dignity.
These skilled warriors using a katana accompanied with either a wakazashi or tanto would fight armies three times their size and be victorious. Then when it came to fighting a foe head to head they were honorable in both victory and defeat, allwoing their foe to die with the honor they deserved. These were holy men, fighting to defend their families and living strictly by the ways of their religion.
So what would you prefer? A dishonorable assassin or a noble warrior?
Personally being a lover and collector of samurai swords, I would have loved to live my life as a samurai. Devoting my life to training and discipline, hoping that one day I would get to serve my country and die like a hero.
Weird comment to make. That is military tactics. If you are saying that's not honor, then, I guess, when one US soldier finds himself looking at the back of an Iraq soldier, he calls him up and they have a duel. War doesn't work like that. In war, there is no cheating, there is only winning and losing, you should never, never ever be merciful to your enemy. If you can send a ninja up his house, that is what you should do.
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Samurai's on the other hand we honorable men.
And they were all killed off.
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These skilled warriors using a katana accompanied with either a wakazashi or tanto would fight armies three times their size and be victorious.
Weird comment to make. That is military tactics. If you are saying that's not honor, then, I guess, when one US soldier finds himself looking at the back of an Iraq soldier, he calls him up and they have a duel. War doesn't work like that. In war, there is no cheating, there is only winning and losing, you should never, never ever be merciful to your enemy. If you can send a ninja up his house, that is what you should do.
Very true. If you have the choice to stop a war before it begins through a couple of deaths, or cause thousands to die, towns to burn and perhaps even starvation to occur, then I'd go with the first one.
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I would have to choose ninja. i like the idea that they can get their job done without being caught most of the time by just sticking in the shadows. As for the whole honor thing, if u ask me ninja's are alot more honorable then samurais. Samurais for one killed themselves out of loyalty, most of the time just because they didnt get there job done, how stupid is that??? I mean seriously, if the lord or emperor or whoever told them to kill themselves was smart, wouldnt he just conserve to have a bigger army. Also they had no say in what they did, whatever there leader said to do they did FOR HONOR. Although this is a good attribute to have, im sure there were some situations that they shouldnt hav followed there leader, but since if they disobeyed there leader they now hav to kill themselves, huh sounds like a good system right? NO.
As for the ninja, although they probably dont get much honor they are alot smarter and think for themselves alot more. ninjas dont just follow a leader to there death, depending on what type of ninja they are they will do the job accordingly and in a way that they arent caught.
Thief Deadly Shadows a game that i have been playing recently, the main character Garret, he isnt only a thief, if u ask me he is also a ninja, if u have played the game i think u can see what im talking about.
i wanna be an anime Ninja. like Gennosuke, or Jubei Kibagami. they rock, they are more honourable thatn their rel file couterparts.
although being an anime Samurai like Hemura Kenshin or Matsumoto Musashi would be awesome too.
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-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
You guys bring strong points to the ninja side of the disscussion. However...you say that if the emperorer or lord that commands the samurai's may misuse their power for evil bidding...then cant that be possible for the lord that commands the ninjas?
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Those before me shall quiver in my wake as I unleash the fury within!
So, since we have discussed which is more honorable...Ninja's or Samurai's...we should start discussing which holds the most superior weaponry and armor...
Ninja's...depended on no armor...for agility and speed.
Samurai's...wore decorated plated/leather armor for defense and representation of their shogun.
Ninja's were equipped with a chopped down Katana/Wakisashi, the occasional claws attached to their knuckles and throwing stars/Shurikans.
Samurai's were equipped with the notorious Katana and Wakisashi. Along with some that preferred spear, polearm, and double Katanas.
Now in specific events...which weaponry and armor was ideal and which one overall is considered the best.
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Those before me shall quiver in my wake as I unleash the fury within!
Sorry to dissapoint you thas but i went ninja. Samurais showed to much mercy to their opponents, they respected their foes too much. Why face them? Your going to kill them anyway...might as well do it quietly and quickly. Ninjas are both more effiecient and more effective....as they require less armor etc and get things done alot quicker and more silent. Honor is something that should be shown to allies and peers ONLY...not your enemies. They do not deserve the chance to live when they had their back turned, only because a samurai wants to be 'honorable'.
Its like your standing there with your blade in hand, facing your enemies back, and you politely tap them on the shoulder and say "oh excuse me i thought id do the honorable thing and let you know im about to kill you, so you know feel free to run or fight back or whatever"
I suppose you could say that modern day ninjas are assassins? Quick, silent, effeicient.
For weapons, clearly a samurai, since they probably had the finest weapons in the world at that time. As for armor, I don't know. I like the idea of having nice armor to protect me, but you get an arrow in an empty spot, sword stuck in behind you, roof falling in, anything, and that armor isn't going to help you.
I'd rather just keep out of battle, best armor there is
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
what good is armor if u cant protect urself, if u ask me a ninja could woop a samurais ass. a ninja could dance circles around a samurai with their heavy armor on.
Samurai armor wasn't too heavy, but it doesn't allow jumping. And, no, ninja won't kill a samurai. If there is someone to kill a ninja, that's a samurai, that's how it always meant. Due to zansin.
Phrozen, I wonder if you are planning on making any philosophy threads? I'm a bit hungry for a discussion. I actually had one topic I wanted to steal from another forum, too...
Samurai armor wasn't too heavy, but it doesn't allow jumping. And, no, samurai won't kill a ninja. If there is someone to kill a ninja, that's a samurai, that's how it always meant. Due to zansin.
wait dude what do u mean? first u say samurai dont kill ninjas then u say they do. at least that what it sounded like to me, please clarify i dont understand lol.
I could've sworn I had posted in this thread. Anyways, I like samurais, because of Thasador's reasons. I am a man of honor. I will not stab you while you aren't looking, that is childish and death worthy.
Hmm, I seem to remember that certain ninjas only became ninjas because they didn't want to comit seppuku. Since I'm not a perfect person by any means, and since I don't want to kill myself, I'd have to stick with the Ninja side of things.
I voted both, but only because I'd have been a samurai at one point in time.
Honor in japan was just as great as being titled as a knight in Great Britain. Having the title of Knight brought enormous respect to the person..."honor".
I'm not degrading the concept of honor. I think it is an important abstract concept that people can live by and be righteous. However, if retaining honor simply means obeying orders, do you not see how a more educated and crafty lord might abuse those beliefs?
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
They were a ruthless breed of assassins, who would work in groups under the cover of darkness to intrude on an enemies territory in order to take out their leader. This would usually take place when a commander or leader of a group of people would be unsure of their ability to win a battle and therefor would try and termiate the enemy commander and end a war before it began. Where is the honor in that?
Using weapons such and katars, throwing stars and the weapon commonly mistaken for a samurai sword. The ninjas would use their stealth and agility to travel within a camp without being seen or heard to accomplish their mission.
Samurai's on the other hand we honorable men. They would train day in and day out so that when the time came, they could serve their community and their country. It is true that they would rather die then be defeated and in many cases they would take their own life instead of being slain by an enemy. But this was their way of dying with honor and dignity.
These skilled warriors using a katana accompanied with either a wakazashi or tanto would fight armies three times their size and be victorious. Then when it came to fighting a foe head to head they were honorable in both victory and defeat, allwoing their foe to die with the honor they deserved. These were holy men, fighting to defend their families and living strictly by the ways of their religion.
So what would you prefer? A dishonorable assassin or a noble warrior?
Personally being a lover and collector of samurai swords, I would have loved to live my life as a samurai. Devoting my life to training and discipline, hoping that one day I would get to serve my country and die like a hero.
And they were all killed off.
Ninja are as skilled, but in a different area...
Only of those armies have the same technology.
As for the ninja, although they probably dont get much honor they are alot smarter and think for themselves alot more. ninjas dont just follow a leader to there death, depending on what type of ninja they are they will do the job accordingly and in a way that they arent caught.
Thief Deadly Shadows a game that i have been playing recently, the main character Garret, he isnt only a thief, if u ask me he is also a ninja, if u have played the game i think u can see what im talking about.
unzip, strip, touch, finger, grep, mount, fsck, more, yes, fsck, fsck, fsck, umount, sleep
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
although being an anime Samurai like Hemura Kenshin or Matsumoto Musashi would be awesome too.
Ninja's...depended on no armor...for agility and speed.
Samurai's...wore decorated plated/leather armor for defense and representation of their shogun.
Ninja's were equipped with a chopped down Katana/Wakisashi, the occasional claws attached to their knuckles and throwing stars/Shurikans.
Samurai's were equipped with the notorious Katana and Wakisashi. Along with some that preferred spear, polearm, and double Katanas.
Now in specific events...which weaponry and armor was ideal and which one overall is considered the best.
Its like your standing there with your blade in hand, facing your enemies back, and you politely tap them on the shoulder and say "oh excuse me i thought id do the honorable thing and let you know im about to kill you, so you know feel free to run or fight back or whatever"
I suppose you could say that modern day ninjas are assassins? Quick, silent, effeicient.
Is that a boxer at the bottom?
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
For weapons, clearly a samurai, since they probably had the finest weapons in the world at that time. As for armor, I don't know. I like the idea of having nice armor to protect me, but you get an arrow in an empty spot, sword stuck in behind you, roof falling in, anything, and that armor isn't going to help you.
I'd rather just keep out of battle, best armor there is
unzip, strip, touch, finger, grep, mount, fsck, more, yes, fsck, fsck, fsck, umount, sleep
Phrozen, I wonder if you are planning on making any philosophy threads? I'm a bit hungry for a discussion. I actually had one topic I wanted to steal from another forum, too...
wait dude what do u mean? first u say samurai dont kill ninjas then u say they do. at least that what it sounded like to me, please clarify i dont understand lol.
unzip, strip, touch, finger, grep, mount, fsck, more, yes, fsck, fsck, fsck, umount, sleep
I voted both, but only because I'd have been a samurai at one point in time.
Like a cat, tied to a stick