Since Bashiok's response to a fan inquiry last week (see Alt Options, Tiered Skill Slots, and the Infamous Auction House), the subject of skill cooldowns has been on the rise again in the Diablo fan community. So far, we've learned that in addition to higher resource costs, higher-tiered skills may also have longer cooldown periods, with as much as two minutes for the Barbarian being already known.
A bit of post-post followup on Bashiok's part left us with the team's reasoning behind the cooldowns, which have been met with both approval and skepticism, as well as a small idea of how Runes (Diablo III) will play into cooldown limitations on higher-end skills.
Official Blizzard Quote:
Q: So teleport has an 8 second cooldown, what about it? For all we know, a Golden rune will decrease the cooldown by 1 second a level, leaving it with a 1 second cooldown with a level 7 rune.
Bashiok: Or delay the cooldown from triggering for X seconds...
[...]
Bottom line is that cooldowns allow for skill complexity or power by limiting them in a meaningful way because it can mean long-term balance even as stats inflate. We do want to make sure we're only using them where appropriate, though.
And, of course, cooldown timers are nothing new to the Diablo series. Several skills in Diablo II, including Blizzard (Diablo II) and Frozen Orb, among others, forced players to wait precious few seconds, encouraging the usage--or spamming--of other skills in the interim. But Diablo II's timers were significantly shorter than those of Diablo III's highest-tiered skills. We wonder, what makes things different in the latest game to merit such significantly longer cooldowns?
Official Blizzard Quote:
Diablo II had a single resource mechanic (mana), and the biggest end-game skills in Diablo II are low-to-mid tier skills in Diablo III. The big "end-tier" skills we have are more complex and usually wouldn't make sense as spammable skills, or would likely outright have to be pulled from the game if it turned out they ever could be spammable. And we have varied resource systems that we can't just throw a problem-solver at, like Diablo II could with mana potions.
For instance Call of the Ancients literally calls down the four barbarian ancients to fight alongside you. How would that work if it was spammable? Should we make it cost 100% resource to keep you from being able to spam it, and then leave you drained to cleave back enough fury to follow it up with anything? That doesn't sound like something *I* would take. Maybe someone could find a build for it, I don't know.
And in case you invest in skills with long cooldown periods and discover that they don't fit into your playstyle, respeccing will be viable option in Diablo III, if not a panacea. We've known for some time now that the team is intent on implementing respeccing of some caliber in Diablo III (see ScyberDragon's excellent Diablo III FAQ).
As we draw ever-nearer to the likely third quarter beta release, it looks like Blizzard is holding true to its promise of revealing major game mechanics to an eager fan crowd.
Official Blizzard Quote:
Q: First and foremost, I am not positive if it's been confirmed if we can even respec in Diablo III. I am assuming we can, which leads me to my question
What is the potential cost for re-specializing your character's talents? Also, is there a limit to how often we can respec? Does the cost for increase for each respec?
Bashiok: We're going to be ready to share a bit more on this real soon.
Official Blizzard Quote:
akumagin: @Diablo Any updates on the Demon Hunter resource system?
Diablo: @akumagin It's in, it's working, and we'll be ready to share more starting next month.
Oh, you naughty dog, Bashiok, playing the soon(TM) card. Oh well.
With a new mechanic announcement on the horizon, tons of great information already in our pockets, beta just out of reach, and Blizzcon 2011 fast approaching, it's truly an exciting time to be a Diablo fan. Stick around for all the latest as our decade-long wait finally comes to a close.
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This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
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hmmm, i sure hope a level 7 rune will be hard to find... I dont want every other noob spamming a 1 second cd teleport. On the other hand, does it really matter? I dont know... I think i just want level 7 ruens to be extremely rare.
akumagin @Diablo Has there been any changes in the resource systems of the barbarian and the wizard and is the D3 team happy how they work?
Diablo @akumagin There have been a number of changes to both, but current iterations have been stable for a while and are working quite well.
I think this would be of interest too for you guys
What changes could they have made to the fury and arcane power resource systems?
I figured two topics are enough, especially since we have no information on what changes those might have been, so there's no real information to discuss.
I am curious to see how the Wizard's resource actually functions now, though. Last I heard, they felt that the version at Blizzcon was...I don't know. Dysfunctional? Pointless? I can't really think of a way they could come up with something unique. I would guess that the Barbarian is pretty much still the same. Notice that neither you nor he specified when those changes took place--he could be talking about development as a whole. For all we know, the iteration last Blizzcon is how both of the characters still use their resources.
Sounds good. I'm glad to hear about the low-mid range skills in D3 being comparable to the end-game skills in D2. I think when people think 2 minute cooldowns on top tier skills, they're imagining frozen orb with a 2 minute cooldown.
Yeah I'm definitely a fan of the longer CDs on high tier skills. In my head it equates to League of Legends ultimates, which generally have cooldowns in the range of 50 seconds to 2.5 minutes. That kind of limit makes you very careful about how you use them, and gives you interesting options for whether you would rather increase their power (AP/AD) or make it usable more often (cooldown reduction).
Plus, the more cooldown variation there is the more skills can be incorporated into your build reasonably. You might have 3-4 core spammable skills, a couple powerful moves for special situations, and one long CD "ultimate" for those oh shit moments, bosses, or especially large groups.
*edit* Just to be clear for my analogy, LoL ultimates are generally REALLY powerful. We're not talking about a 2 minute cooldown on frozen orb (great example of the mindset some people have I think). We're talking about a 2 minute cooldown on an ability that shoots 16 frozen orbs omni-directionally from yourself. I think that's a good Diablo equivalent.
This definitively will push players to walk/kill monsters to get from point A to point B, unlike Diablo II. Teleport is a double edged sword really. It has to be frustrating to the developing team that you can skip an entire act by some insane cast rate, yet it allowed us to focus on end content more effectively.
If the level 7 rune lets you cast 2-3 teleport before a cooldown appears and if they are as rare as I think, I will certainly use another rune.
I love this... its just more of an opportunity for char customization. Runes for changing cool down time etc... more DMG higher cool down... less DMG more spammable etc... quality.
Yeah I'm liking the cooldowns as well. Its easier for blizz to balance the game when necessary, makes you feel more powerful when it counts, and doesn let douchebags spam the shit out of teleport (hopefully).
I think it is interesting to hear the kind of things you can do with these runes. We are talking just about CD reductions in our minds and they mention delaying CDs for a set time. It just makes me think what sort of surprises will we see for these massive CD abilities.
Yeah I'm definitely a fan of the longer CDs on high tier skills. In my head it equates to League of Legends ultimates, which generally have cooldowns in the range of 50 seconds to 2.5 minutes. That kind of limit makes you very careful about how you use them, and gives you interesting options for whether you would rather increase their power (AP/AD) or make it usable more often (cooldown reduction).
Plus, the more cooldown variation there is the more skills can be incorporated into your build reasonably. You might have 3-4 core spammable skills, a couple powerful moves for special situations, and one long CD "ultimate" for those oh shit moments, bosses, or especially large groups.
*edit* Just to be clear for my analogy, LoL ultimates are generally REALLY powerful. We're not talking about a 2 minute cooldown on frozen orb (great example of the mindset some people have I think). We're talking about a 2 minute cooldown on an ability that shoots 16 frozen orbs omni-directionally from yourself. I think that's a good Diablo equivalent.
I think LoL's and Dota's ultimate are a good exemple. The big difference is that those games are completly different. LoL is a PvP game and a PvP that does not evolves constant fightning.
The relevance of PvP in my argument is that, when you're fightning against people, situations that requires tatics (short term strategies) are constant and allways different. So the ultimate rly have a strategic function there.
In games like Diablo the strategies are long term based. I mean great part of being strong in this kind of game is planning and theoricrafting. In a game like this, i dunno if long cooldowns will add anything to gameplay. To me it feels like you will just save it for the rare/unique/boss monsters to instant own then.
Then you say the bosses will be balanced in a way that use this skills will not own then. So.. What if your skill is on cooldown ? Will the boss be impossible ?
To me it feels like you will just save it for the rare/unique/boss monsters to instant own then.
Then you say the bosses will be balanced in a way that use this skills will not own then. So.. What if your skill is on cooldown ? Will the boss be impossible ?
Who says all the high end high CD abilities are high single target damage?
As long as they're powerful, they could have a variety of effects. Some might be powerful against a boss (a particularly strong buff or high damage attack, Dots), some might be more effective against large swarms (Large area CC abilities, AOE damage, AoE Dots, basically AOE), or as an oh-shit button (teleports, highly defensive buffs or shields, lifestealing moves).
Of course most bosses would be killable without using a high CD move (who knows about act bosses and such), but it would certainly make it easier to burn some of those high CDs. And that's what generates the interest--when do you use them? If a skill is spammable, there's not really a choice. You can use it whenever. If a skill takes a minute to recharge, suddenly it's a more important decision.
This is the same for PvE and PvP. In fact, I would argue that it's a more important feature in PvE BECAUSE of the more constant threat. In League, you don't use an ult unless you're fighting a champion (for most people, there are exceptions, which follow the choice dichotomy I was discussing). Because fights aren't more frequent than the cooldowns most of the time, you can pretty much ult whenever.
In Diablo, you will always have the option to ult, and always have a potential situation where it can be useful. Therefore it's a more important decision when you use it.
Edit* Plus, you can potentially have several (or all 7!) high CD uber skills
I find after reading a lot of discussion, that there are a lot of people that want Diablo III to be Diablo II... Cooldown guys is awesome, it makes the game way more exciting imo. I also think people should try and trust Blizzard a bit more in what they do. Since they are the best development company around if you ask me.
I personally played a lot of dota and as of late I am filling my game time with LoL. Hero's in these games have CD on their spells as well and in my opinion it makes the game way more tactical and make you think about which spell should follow after another. Not just a noobish spamfest, I personally like a bit more of a challange.
Also played years of Diablo I & II and liked them a lot, but I am even more excited about III right now and what I have seen so far from the game makes me happy. Just trust the guys @ Blizzard a bit more, and it's not like the game will be finished when it's released. enough room for changes after, lets first see how it is going to turn out for now...
Cooldown is not the issue for some players, it's how long the cd is. I'm not gonna argue anymore to any D3 feature/gameplay since beta is around the corner. We'll just have to experience the game then we'll see.
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I love all loot fest kind of game! I will be playing all of them for the next few years. Loot fest games I'm looking forward to: LotR: War in the North,Torchlight 2,Borderlands 2 and of course Diablo 3.
I'm interested to see how this works out. I don't think myself a very wise or knowledgeable gamer so i'll sit the fence and wait until I play it. Long cooldowns being entered into D3 can either take away the feel or if done right probably open new windows into strategy and playing, giving it all new replay-ability. Who knows, lets see how blizzard does this and either tear them apart, or applaud them on beta. That is if they will show enough for us to make a judgement on ending tier skills.
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A bit of post-post followup on Bashiok's part left us with the team's reasoning behind the cooldowns, which have been met with both approval and skepticism, as well as a small idea of how Runes (Diablo III) will play into cooldown limitations on higher-end skills.
Official Blizzard Quote:
Q: So teleport has an 8 second cooldown, what about it? For all we know, a Golden rune will decrease the cooldown by 1 second a level, leaving it with a 1 second cooldown with a level 7 rune.
And, of course, cooldown timers are nothing new to the Diablo series. Several skills in Diablo II, including Blizzard (Diablo II) and Frozen Orb, among others, forced players to wait precious few seconds, encouraging the usage--or spamming--of other skills in the interim. But Diablo II's timers were significantly shorter than those of Diablo III's highest-tiered skills. We wonder, what makes things different in the latest game to merit such significantly longer cooldowns?
Official Blizzard Quote:
Diablo II had a single resource mechanic (mana), and the biggest end-game skills in Diablo II are low-to-mid tier skills in Diablo III. The big "end-tier" skills we have are more complex and usually wouldn't make sense as spammable skills, or would likely outright have to be pulled from the game if it turned out they ever could be spammable. And we have varied resource systems that we can't just throw a problem-solver at, like Diablo II could with mana potions.
For instance Call of the Ancients literally calls down the four barbarian ancients to fight alongside you. How would that work if it was spammable? Should we make it cost 100% resource to keep you from being able to spam it, and then leave you drained to cleave back enough fury to follow it up with anything? That doesn't sound like something *I* would take. Maybe someone could find a build for it, I don't know.
And in case you invest in skills with long cooldown periods and discover that they don't fit into your playstyle, respeccing will be viable option in Diablo III, if not a panacea. We've known for some time now that the team is intent on implementing respeccing of some caliber in Diablo III (see ScyberDragon's excellent Diablo III FAQ).
As we draw ever-nearer to the likely third quarter beta release, it looks like Blizzard is holding true to its promise of revealing major game mechanics to an eager fan crowd.
Official Blizzard Quote:
Q: First and foremost, I am not positive if it's been confirmed if we can even respec in Diablo III. I am assuming we can, which leads me to my question
What is the potential cost for re-specializing your character's talents? Also, is there a limit to how often we can respec? Does the cost for increase for each respec?
Official Blizzard Quote:
akumagin: @Diablo Any updates on the Demon Hunter resource system?
Oh, you naughty dog, Bashiok, playing the soon(TM) card. Oh well.
With a new mechanic announcement on the horizon, tons of great information already in our pockets, beta just out of reach, and Blizzcon 2011 fast approaching, it's truly an exciting time to be a Diablo fan. Stick around for all the latest as our decade-long wait finally comes to a close.
If you want to arrange it
This world you can change it
If we could somehow make this
Christmas thing last
By helping a neighbor
Or even a stranger
And to know who needs help
You need only just ask
hmmm, i sure hope a level 7 rune will be hard to find... I dont want every other noob spamming a 1 second cd teleport. On the other hand, does it really matter? I dont know... I think i just want level 7 ruens to be extremely rare.
I figured two topics are enough, especially since we have no information on what changes those might have been, so there's no real information to discuss.
I am curious to see how the Wizard's resource actually functions now, though. Last I heard, they felt that the version at Blizzcon was...I don't know. Dysfunctional? Pointless? I can't really think of a way they could come up with something unique. I would guess that the Barbarian is pretty much still the same. Notice that neither you nor he specified when those changes took place--he could be talking about development as a whole. For all we know, the iteration last Blizzcon is how both of the characters still use their resources.
Regardless, there you go, hijacking my topic
Then don't go off topic! Sheesh Common enough forum rule of thumb
(No hard feelings, really. What if you were giving a speech and some random guy came in and started speaking over you? Yeah.)
Can't wait to hear about the respec system!!
Plus, the more cooldown variation there is the more skills can be incorporated into your build reasonably. You might have 3-4 core spammable skills, a couple powerful moves for special situations, and one long CD "ultimate" for those oh shit moments, bosses, or especially large groups.
*edit* Just to be clear for my analogy, LoL ultimates are generally REALLY powerful. We're not talking about a 2 minute cooldown on frozen orb (great example of the mindset some people have I think). We're talking about a 2 minute cooldown on an ability that shoots 16 frozen orbs omni-directionally from yourself. I think that's a good Diablo equivalent.
If the level 7 rune lets you cast 2-3 teleport before a cooldown appears and if they are as rare as I think, I will certainly use another rune.
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I think LoL's and Dota's ultimate are a good exemple. The big difference is that those games are completly different. LoL is a PvP game and a PvP that does not evolves constant fightning.
The relevance of PvP in my argument is that, when you're fightning against people, situations that requires tatics (short term strategies) are constant and allways different. So the ultimate rly have a strategic function there.
In games like Diablo the strategies are long term based. I mean great part of being strong in this kind of game is planning and theoricrafting. In a game like this, i dunno if long cooldowns will add anything to gameplay. To me it feels like you will just save it for the rare/unique/boss monsters to instant own then.
Then you say the bosses will be balanced in a way that use this skills will not own then. So.. What if your skill is on cooldown ? Will the boss be impossible ?
Soon we will all have our hands on this game that has consumed our minds for soooo
many years!!!!!!!!!!
Who says all the high end high CD abilities are high single target damage?
As long as they're powerful, they could have a variety of effects. Some might be powerful against a boss (a particularly strong buff or high damage attack, Dots), some might be more effective against large swarms (Large area CC abilities, AOE damage, AoE Dots, basically AOE), or as an oh-shit button (teleports, highly defensive buffs or shields, lifestealing moves).
Of course most bosses would be killable without using a high CD move (who knows about act bosses and such), but it would certainly make it easier to burn some of those high CDs. And that's what generates the interest--when do you use them? If a skill is spammable, there's not really a choice. You can use it whenever. If a skill takes a minute to recharge, suddenly it's a more important decision.
This is the same for PvE and PvP. In fact, I would argue that it's a more important feature in PvE BECAUSE of the more constant threat. In League, you don't use an ult unless you're fighting a champion (for most people, there are exceptions, which follow the choice dichotomy I was discussing). Because fights aren't more frequent than the cooldowns most of the time, you can pretty much ult whenever.
In Diablo, you will always have the option to ult, and always have a potential situation where it can be useful. Therefore it's a more important decision when you use it.
Edit* Plus, you can potentially have several (or all 7!) high CD uber skills
Cooldown is not the issue for some players, it's how long the cd is. I'm not gonna argue anymore to any D3 feature/gameplay since beta is around the corner. We'll just have to experience the game then we'll see.