Anything permanent is worth having. 5 stat points and 20 hit points is 15 stats and 60 hit points accross all difficulties. Sure, its not a lot on its own, but no point in missing these out.
So they are completely perfect as is and couldn't be better in any way? Of course it's good to get them just because you can, but they really aren't all that great of rewards for all the hell-trekking you do in Act III, not to mention doing the same things in Hell, fighting monsters in the Disused Temple or whatever it's called that do hundreds of points of damage in one hit and being rewarded with 20 hit points. It just doesn't make sense
That's like saying just because every monster in Hell can drop an HR you should kill them all. Your chances are so infinitesimally small it's really not worth it if you can spend the same effort and time off doing something with greater return.
In the same way, if you can be off running bosses or leveling, getting a far superior return for your time and effort investment, then 20 measly points is nothing.
The rewards should have been scaled with the difficulty level.
I agree though, it wasn't anything "fun" to go after, and the hits points really should scale a bit with difficulty levels (40 nightmare, 60 hell? for 120).
Its really not the same than anything else simply because they are permanent. And guaranteed. Still, your character probably won't suffer much from having 60 less HP, but people put a lot of points in vitality. Isn't that like 20 points in vitality? (depends on the character) Why would anyone throw that away?
Other than the fact I absolutely hate doing these quests and Act 3 as a whole except the end, they are worth it, in my opinion.
I have to disagree with SFJake. Adding quests to the advanced difficulty levels would increase the replayability of the game. I would love to see some kind of reward for repeating the whole game a second and even a third time on higher difficulty levels. I just think that players deserve something for their effort, and if that reward happens to come in the form of lore then so be it. Thats exactly the kind of thing that would keep the game fresh and interesting and more fun for longer, which I consider a good thing.
Yes, there were certainly players who stopped playing a character after beating the game on normal difficulty. But is that really a good reason not to add any unique content beyond that point? Perhaps those players would have been more inclined to continue playing if they weren't going to simply repeat the same exact quests. Maybe the only reason they stopped playing is because there WASN'T any additional content beyond normal difficulty.
Does anyone remember playing goldeneye on nintendo 64? Its a james bond game. For each mission, you were given certain objectives that must be completed. Blow this up, steal this, interrogate this guy, etc etc. On higher difficulty levels, you were given additional objectives. You would still have the same objective(s) from the easier difficulty settings, only more objectives were added in an effort to make the mission more challenging and interesting. I'm not saying this would be the best way, or even an appropriate way to arrange diablo 3 quests. I just think this is an excellent example of how adding quests on higher difficulty levels would enhance the replayability of the game and make it more fun. It also makes for a game that is easy to pick up and play, but still offers challenges once the player has become good at the game.
How can it make any sense, lore wise? Everything repeats itself between difficulties, with difference and its harder, yes. But you are asking for class specific quests that makes sense and go across all difficulties.
Besides, I refuse that any important in-game lore be out of reach for anyone that only completes Normal. I've known quite a few that never stepped in Nightmare in D2, and instead just made another character and started over (the idea of completing the game "again" with the same character, even if it was harder, was boring as hell to them).
If there are unique quests that lasts a long time, or unique nightmare/hell quests, their impact on the Lore should be minimal, or they should even be detached from it (uber tristram).
The quests must make sense, lore wise, the difficults dont. Simple as that. Ofc, so a quest chain make sense it must be achated to our character level, not to your progression in game.
And the idea of complete the again with the same character was boring execly because theres nothing different and 0% continuity. Maybe if they have acces to some new quests or continue something undone the game will have more appeal to ask the player to finish it 3 times with the same character.
And I don't see why all the lore canon must be so noob friendly. Ofc the main story (main quests) must be, but I see no reason of why the greatest challenges of the game must be a nonsense. It's almost like people don't want well elaborated quests.
Well, its true that more lore through difficulties would be good to get the player to play them, but how? You still are going to do all the same thing, so what, different difficulties gives you access to different little bits of lore? Why? How would that make any sense lore wise?
I'm really split here, because its not that I would personally dislike lore late in hell, but the player that does not complete anything else than Normal shouldn't be missing on important things.
If its only some things that makes sense Lore wise, but are not really important at all, just to give you something different to do passed normal, then I guess that would be good.
Well, its true that more lore through difficulties would be good to get the player to play them, but how? You still are going to do all the same thing, so what, different difficulties gives you access to different little bits of lore? Why? How would that make any sense lore wise?
These are really sensible questions to ask. Difficulties are really just present to give you something more to do with the game without actually adding more to the game, like lore. That's what we have quests for.
And if this was at all misinterpreted when I said it, I think the rewards for finishing quests should scale with the difficulty they are accomplished in, not the lore in the quest. There is no relation between lore (a creative expression) and difficulties (an incremental tool), but there is a relation between what you get from the reward and the difficulty level.
(Above paragraph is not aimed at anyone specifically.)
For instance, 20 health means nothing in Hell. Nothing (yes, I do agree it's good that it's a permanent 20 additional health, but it's so small it would be like adding 2% to Gold Find or something). The reward, health, in this case, should be scaled to the difficulty, meaning that more health should be given. Because of the difficulty incrementation, the enemies are harder and you are still only fighting with what you had before. In the same way, the reward should increment, as well.
Well, its true that more lore through difficulties would be good to get the player to play them, but how? You still are going to do all the same thing, so what, different difficulties gives you access to different little bits of lore? Why? How would that make any sense lore wise?
We're talking about side quests here, not the main storyline. There are no rules saying D3 has to repeat 3 times exactly as D2 did. Side quests, by definition, are not required to advance the main storyline, so even if D3 repeats the main storyline every difficulty level there is no reason why the side quests can't be different.
If you're concerned about the 'lore' then lets consider the 'lore' introduced by the diablo II side quests. Take for instance act I. Some side quests include killing blood raven and killing the countess. The stories of blood raven and the countess might be interesting and all, but have absolutely nothing to do with the main storyline involving the prime evils. In nightmare difficulty those could easily have been different bosses with completely different stories. This way, each difficulty level could theoretically introduce new side quest stories and monsters without ruining anything established in previous difficulty levels.
So to answer your questions, the point of doing this is to make the game more interesting each time around. I don't see how it wouldn't make sense lore wise. In normal the rogue encampment is terrorized by blood raven. In nightmare just think you already killed blood raven, so now they could be facing a flying pink elephant, or whatever fearsome foe you want to come up with. It doesn't really matter. It just adds some variety, some spice.
Oh yeah I don't really wanna lose sight of my original thought, which was that side quests happening in randomized map chunks opens up a lot of possibilities. Having different quests in different difficulty levels is just one possibility.
I'm a little bit more excited about some of the other possibilities. Like blizzard might be able to add new map chunks with side quests through patches. It seems like that might be easy to do through a programming standpoint. The randomizer is already there to piece together the map, all they need is a new chunk which can be thrown in.
Of course, maybe instead of having different quests in different difficulty levels, every time you create a game the quests might be different, depending on how the random map thing comes together, regardless of difficulty level. For example the first time you make a normal game, you might find the quest to kill blood raven. The next time you make a normal game you might find the quest to kill the flying pink elephant instead. Both those quests would then also exist in nightmare and hell, you just might have to make a number of games on each difficulty level in order to eventually see both quests. I think this is slightly more interesting than having blood raven in EVERY game you ever create for example.
But I guess we'll see what blizzard does with these side quests. I'm sure there are a lot of possibilities I haven't thought of.
How great your info is!But Can you give some more sample questions and answers.I really want to get more info about this topicIt really useful for me. Thanks.
There is no relation between lore (a creative expression) and difficulties (an incremental tool), but there is a relation between what you get from the reward and the difficulty level.
While that is true, I'm not inclined to agree that it means no new lore should be added in the later difficulties.
I'm in agreement with just about everyone else that the main storyline should be completely expressed finished in Normal, nothing else makes sense. However I do not see why a side quest could be Nightmare/Hell specific.
Take the books. The books most certainly add much lore to the series, however that knowledge isn't given to player who play Diablo II, and undoubtedly all the info won't be given to them in D3 either. So in order to grasp all of the lore first-hand, you need to also read the books.
The same point could be made for side quests. To experience all events first-hand, you would have to play through all difficulties. Although all the lore will naturally be available on various fan sites in due time if you want to read up on it.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
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While that is true, I'm not inclined to agree that it means no new lore should be added in the later difficulties.
I'm in agreement with just about everyone else that the main storyline should be completely expressed finished in Normal, nothing else makes sense. However I do not see why a side quest could be Nightmare/Hell specific.
Take the books. The books most certainly add much lore to the series, however that knowledge isn't given to player who play Diablo II, and undoubtedly all the info won't be given to them in D3 either. So in order to grasp all of the lore first-hand, you need to also read the books.
The same point could be made for side quests. To experience all events first-hand, you would have to play through all difficulties. Although all the lore will naturally be available on various fan sites in due time if you want to read up on it.
While that is true, I'm not inclined to agree that it means no new lore should be added in the later difficulties.
I'm in agreement with just about everyone else that the main storyline should be completely expressed finished in Normal, nothing else makes sense. However I do not see why a side quest could be Nightmare/Hell specific.
Take the books. The books most certainly add much lore to the series, however that knowledge isn't given to player who play Diablo II, and undoubtedly all the info won't be given to them in D3 either. So in order to grasp all of the lore first-hand, you need to also read the books.
The same point could be made for side quests. To experience all events first-hand, you would have to play through all difficulties. Although all the lore will naturally be available on various fan sites in due time if you want to read up on it.
You are very right phrozen. I don't see why we couldn't have more lore/quests in nightmare/hell. I would even embrasse that idea since it's an incentive to go up a notch and experience something new.
Hm. Guess I'm wrong. I agree. I'm primarily concerned with my original argument, though. That rewards need to scale with difficulty.
Agreed. Just about the only quest reward worthwhile in Nightmare and Hell were the three quests that gave you extra skill points, and arguably the Socket reward as well. Blood Raven's quest even lost its reward!
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
It's will be great to have many rare random hided quests. It's not only great for multi-players but for single it's a reason to replay, find what you don't see yet.
The one answer that solves all the questions asked is just make the random quests worth it. Cpl skill points as a reward or even a side quest that takes you into a dungeon where you fight a mini boss etc. I think the random side quests is a wonderful idea. You could be telling your friends. Hey bro I just did this random quest in act 1 near (fillin the blank's) waypoint and I got this cool sword/fought a cool mini boss that gave loads of experience. Your buddie would be jealous and he may never get the same side quest as you in his whole experience with diablo 3 lol. Wouldn't that be cool? Enough randomized quests to guarantee some things would be unique. Only 1/8 of the D3 community ever getting the same quest as you. Pretty awesome I say, what a way to make your friend jealous. I did happen to get off topic though, sorry lol. No, I'm not worried about people bypassing them because the only reason we bypassed so many of them in diablo 2 is because we had all done them 150x over. We got so caught up in...dude lets lvl to 80, buy stuff. make the perfect character and pvp, do runs etc. Regretably Diablo 3 will be just the same after a couple of years but for the first year or two when people are actually enthralled by the story line and not being rushed through the entire game in 15minutes. I think it will add hours of fun, randomization and monopolization lol.
I read a few more posts and I agree also. As you move up in difficulties there should be new challenges/harder mini bosses and quests etc. Maybe even more lore and extend the process of completing that difficulty. HELL maybe even a whole new act...
Ppls at diablo3.net.ua are assuming that side quests will be very useful in Diablo 3, it is possible that they can offer
1. Some great rewards.
2. Unique content
3. Even MF can be increased for doing quest chains
4. They can be just fun)
The more the better. I hope they put this badboy on a Quad Layered BluRay. I would love this game to be loaded with side quest. I want to feel like i have to do them to know more about the story.
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That's like saying just because every monster in Hell can drop an HR you should kill them all. Your chances are so infinitesimally small it's really not worth it if you can spend the same effort and time off doing something with greater return.
In the same way, if you can be off running bosses or leveling, getting a far superior return for your time and effort investment, then 20 measly points is nothing.
The rewards should have been scaled with the difficulty level.
I agree though, it wasn't anything "fun" to go after, and the hits points really should scale a bit with difficulty levels (40 nightmare, 60 hell? for 120).
Its really not the same than anything else simply because they are permanent. And guaranteed. Still, your character probably won't suffer much from having 60 less HP, but people put a lot of points in vitality. Isn't that like 20 points in vitality? (depends on the character) Why would anyone throw that away?
Other than the fact I absolutely hate doing these quests and Act 3 as a whole except the end, they are worth it, in my opinion.
Yes, there were certainly players who stopped playing a character after beating the game on normal difficulty. But is that really a good reason not to add any unique content beyond that point? Perhaps those players would have been more inclined to continue playing if they weren't going to simply repeat the same exact quests. Maybe the only reason they stopped playing is because there WASN'T any additional content beyond normal difficulty.
Does anyone remember playing goldeneye on nintendo 64? Its a james bond game. For each mission, you were given certain objectives that must be completed. Blow this up, steal this, interrogate this guy, etc etc. On higher difficulty levels, you were given additional objectives. You would still have the same objective(s) from the easier difficulty settings, only more objectives were added in an effort to make the mission more challenging and interesting. I'm not saying this would be the best way, or even an appropriate way to arrange diablo 3 quests. I just think this is an excellent example of how adding quests on higher difficulty levels would enhance the replayability of the game and make it more fun. It also makes for a game that is easy to pick up and play, but still offers challenges once the player has become good at the game.
The quests must make sense, lore wise, the difficults dont. Simple as that. Ofc, so a quest chain make sense it must be achated to our character level, not to your progression in game.
And the idea of complete the again with the same character was boring execly because theres nothing different and 0% continuity. Maybe if they have acces to some new quests or continue something undone the game will have more appeal to ask the player to finish it 3 times with the same character.
And I don't see why all the lore canon must be so noob friendly. Ofc the main story (main quests) must be, but I see no reason of why the greatest challenges of the game must be a nonsense. It's almost like people don't want well elaborated quests.
I'm really split here, because its not that I would personally dislike lore late in hell, but the player that does not complete anything else than Normal shouldn't be missing on important things.
If its only some things that makes sense Lore wise, but are not really important at all, just to give you something different to do passed normal, then I guess that would be good.
I think a majority of players will do quite a bit of them, and probably all of them actually ...
These are really sensible questions to ask. Difficulties are really just present to give you something more to do with the game without actually adding more to the game, like lore. That's what we have quests for.
And if this was at all misinterpreted when I said it, I think the rewards for finishing quests should scale with the difficulty they are accomplished in, not the lore in the quest. There is no relation between lore (a creative expression) and difficulties (an incremental tool), but there is a relation between what you get from the reward and the difficulty level.
(Above paragraph is not aimed at anyone specifically.)
For instance, 20 health means nothing in Hell. Nothing (yes, I do agree it's good that it's a permanent 20 additional health, but it's so small it would be like adding 2% to Gold Find or something). The reward, health, in this case, should be scaled to the difficulty, meaning that more health should be given. Because of the difficulty incrementation, the enemies are harder and you are still only fighting with what you had before. In the same way, the reward should increment, as well.
for the first bit after release anyway.
We're talking about side quests here, not the main storyline. There are no rules saying D3 has to repeat 3 times exactly as D2 did. Side quests, by definition, are not required to advance the main storyline, so even if D3 repeats the main storyline every difficulty level there is no reason why the side quests can't be different.
If you're concerned about the 'lore' then lets consider the 'lore' introduced by the diablo II side quests. Take for instance act I. Some side quests include killing blood raven and killing the countess. The stories of blood raven and the countess might be interesting and all, but have absolutely nothing to do with the main storyline involving the prime evils. In nightmare difficulty those could easily have been different bosses with completely different stories. This way, each difficulty level could theoretically introduce new side quest stories and monsters without ruining anything established in previous difficulty levels.
So to answer your questions, the point of doing this is to make the game more interesting each time around. I don't see how it wouldn't make sense lore wise. In normal the rogue encampment is terrorized by blood raven. In nightmare just think you already killed blood raven, so now they could be facing a flying pink elephant, or whatever fearsome foe you want to come up with. It doesn't really matter. It just adds some variety, some spice.
Oh yeah I don't really wanna lose sight of my original thought, which was that side quests happening in randomized map chunks opens up a lot of possibilities. Having different quests in different difficulty levels is just one possibility.
I'm a little bit more excited about some of the other possibilities. Like blizzard might be able to add new map chunks with side quests through patches. It seems like that might be easy to do through a programming standpoint. The randomizer is already there to piece together the map, all they need is a new chunk which can be thrown in.
Of course, maybe instead of having different quests in different difficulty levels, every time you create a game the quests might be different, depending on how the random map thing comes together, regardless of difficulty level. For example the first time you make a normal game, you might find the quest to kill blood raven. The next time you make a normal game you might find the quest to kill the flying pink elephant instead. Both those quests would then also exist in nightmare and hell, you just might have to make a number of games on each difficulty level in order to eventually see both quests. I think this is slightly more interesting than having blood raven in EVERY game you ever create for example.
But I guess we'll see what blizzard does with these side quests. I'm sure there are a lot of possibilities I haven't thought of.
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I'm in agreement with just about everyone else that the main storyline should be completely expressed finished in Normal, nothing else makes sense. However I do not see why a side quest could be Nightmare/Hell specific.
Take the books. The books most certainly add much lore to the series, however that knowledge isn't given to player who play Diablo II, and undoubtedly all the info won't be given to them in D3 either. So in order to grasp all of the lore first-hand, you need to also read the books.
The same point could be made for side quests. To experience all events first-hand, you would have to play through all difficulties. Although all the lore will naturally be available on various fan sites in due time if you want to read up on it.
You are very right phrozen. I don't see why we couldn't have more lore/quests in nightmare/hell. I would even embrasse that idea since it's an incentive to go up a notch and experience something new.
I read a few more posts and I agree also. As you move up in difficulties there should be new challenges/harder mini bosses and quests etc. Maybe even more lore and extend the process of completing that difficulty. HELL maybe even a whole new act...
1. Some great rewards.
2. Unique content
3. Even MF can be increased for doing quest chains
4. They can be just fun)