I did read your other quotes, but I won't reply to them since it will go nowhere as we see things diffrently.
On this note I can say that there is room for both worlds. You can have casual, ungoverned "meat grinder" kind of PvP in arenas via a matchmaking system for the people who like that. You can also have a more organized and rule/setting governed type of PvP that is supported and self policed by individual communities within the game itself.
What you are proposing is casualisation, wich initself is not a bad thing aslong as you leave options ( if cost and resource effective ) for those who wanna take things further, albeit on their own peril and governed/ran by themselves via 3rd party communities.
I can most definitely promise you that in a not very long time the people who did start pvping in a very casual way/manner ( and liked it, not all are going to ) will want to progress in some form, after they have gone through the more "blizz governed" casual pvp mini-game they might seek out further challenge, thats where 3rd party communities might come into play for them aswell.
As you say it will not be the first thing someone completly new to Diablo will seek out but it is a good way to add longevity to the game and will not cost blizzard any money, as long as the "tools" are provided for the community to develop for themselves. Think use-map settings in Starcraft, how many hours of insane fun have that iniative not brought the original SC community?
Also the whole idea behind letting the community run the pvp side of things ( could very well be alongside a more casualised blizzard sanctioned pvp ) is to avoid the stat padding of official ladders, rankings and all that sort that comes in "official this or that's" wake.
Another, almost even more important aspect is ofcourse the balance issues that probably will arise, certain item combinations together with certain skills and runes will be hard to balance, therefore a single community can agree upon not using x y z skills, items and so forth for the benefit of everyone INSIDE that perticular community without affecting the "more casual blizzard arena" or the PvM side of the game, aswell as beeing resource light on blizzard to further develop the PvM and casual arena side of the game.
It is a win win situation, and one that lets people participate to whatever degree they want.
What you're asking for is Blizzard throwing a lot of development effort into custom Arena games, when their overall goal is specifically to not focus development on competitive features. I think this is something that people forget to realize when saying "Blizzard SHOULD this.." is that it actually ISN'T in Blizzard's best interest to do as you suggest.
Their design for PvP is focused towards casual PvP. They've stated this multiple times. If they implement a feature~set that is focused towards competitive play, it muddles the focus of their design. It creates confusion as to how much support is supposed to be offered, etc.
I'm a bit curious... why is there such a NEED to add competitive PvP into a game that it's developers have already said wasn't their goal? Why do those that are more competitive seem to be entitled to having it in a new game? I know that people liked it in Diablo 2. However, that isn't a goal with Diablo 3 and why should it be? It isn't like Diablo 2 is going away...
"So for me, if a community builds around it similar to the community that built around Diablo II, then I will feel like it’s a success. If that community is vibrant and wars with each other, and with us, and struggles and fights to make the game better, then to me that's worth continuing to work on the game. That’s success." - Jay Wilson, Director of Diablo 3
Ecut sits there and criticizes the Diablo 2 community and how bad they were and how they arn't welcomed in D3. Yet Jay Wilson, his idol is basing the games success on if Diablo 3's community can match up to Diablo 2's. Even uses such words as "community is vibrant and wars with each other, and with us, and struggles and fights to make the game better". You don't get that kind of a community if Blizzard holds everyones hands and doesn't give us the ability to craft it ourselves. You don't get that in "casual" arena where losses and wins apparently mean nothing to the mass majority. You don't get that in a predominantly PvM game.
There is no confusion at all, it is actually quite simple and straight forward.
Blizzard can tinker and play around with an officially supported casual version of PvP but at the same time give the option of creating private pvp games together with options to tweak the experience as the creator of that perticular "game" see fit.
This private game will not show up as an official blizzard arena game and cannot be joined via match making system.
Everyone is happy.
What you want on the other hand is to pigeonhole people wich I think takes away from the game without really benefiting either side of this argument / camp.
These private games could be setup within the range of options that blizzard provides, wich should not be a very resource heavy thing to accomondate since they themselves ( blizzard ) must have some sort of interface in place to work with "official match making arenas" to begin with.
Options such as:
Nummber of players
Duration of match
Map
Game mode: CTF, LMS, TvT, 1vsX, 1v1, 2v2 etc
switch teams randomly after x fights
'use map setting' like tools could be implemented aswell to further enhance and indirectly support the pvp side of the game without investing any time in it, let the communities develop for themselves. Remember Big game hunter ( BGH), one of the most played starcraft maps ever and also happend to be community created.
Think big using little manpower and resources. No confusion, no forced pvp elitism and no whine about pvp imbalance due to items, skills or other things relating to character balance wich also affect PvM balance.
I think the problem you have with this might be something your not conveying.
Do you even realize how long the options you just stated would actually take a large development company like Blizzard to actually do? Interface design alone could take a month or two through quality control. Its not some trivial task as you seem to think. It takes sizable effort.
In addition, you've failed to give a reason why these features would actually be worth the time investment as well. They go against the design that Blizzard has set forth, they would split the community between public and private PvP, etc. I've given reasons they shouldn't add it. It really is like going to a Pokemon forum and complaining that their next game isn't an FPS, because you want it to be. Diablo 3 isn't a competitive PvP game. Why is that so hard to grasp?
"So for me, if a community builds around it similar to the community that built around Diablo II, then I will feel like it’s a success. If that community is vibrant and wars with each other, and with us, and struggles and fights to make the game better, then to me that's worth continuing to work on the game. That’s success." - Jay Wilson, Director of Diablo 3
Ecut sits there and criticizes the Diablo 2 community and how bad they were and how they arn't welcomed in D3. Yet Jay Wilson, his idol is basing the games success on if Diablo 3's community can match up to Diablo 2's. Even uses such words as "community is vibrant and wars with each other, and with us, and struggles and fights to make the game better". You don't get that kind of a community if Blizzard holds everyones hands and doesn't give us the ability to craft it ourselves. You don't get that in "casual" arena where losses and wins apparently mean nothing to the mass majority. You don't get that in a predominantly PvM game.
I don't believe I've stated that the Diablo 2 community is bad, or how they aren't welcome. Specifically I stated that those (like yourself) that cannot come to terms with the fact that Diablo 3 is a new game, with a new design, and gameplay...maybe shouldn't buy it. If you're so fixated on the fact that Diablo 3 doesn't have what you loved about Diablo 2... then perhaps you should keep playing Diablo 2.
Many people actually like the new direction Blizzard has taken with Diablo 3 and don't want them to change gears and focus more on even further PvP additions. Blizzard isn't 'holding your hand', they are making a game that has more structured rules. You don't like that, and you lash out. Just because Blizzard didn't design the game FOR YOU doesn't make it a bad game design, or anything of the sort. It just means its a new game that you might not enjoy playing. Which means you stick with a game you do like instead... how is that a bad thing?
1) Put basic tools in place for the community to use in any way they wish but not officially supporting the PvP side of the game
- This would include making x arena maps, y game modes ( CTF, FFA, TvT DM, LMS) giving a wide range of options, implementing a "hostile by concent" in regular games so people can atleast hit eachother ( if both concenting to it ) in regular games.
- This will lead to 3rd party communities making their own rules for the games, 3rd party ladders and 3rd party tournaments all wich are self policing and where "overpowered" abilities will be banned and managed in a way to make the experience as balanced as it can for the members within that community.
- Release mod tools for PvP arenas and let the community create their own pvp maps
I'm curious if either of you stating this is a middle ground ACTUALLY read it. This option creates the EXACT confusion I was stating would happen. It gives people the impression that Blizzard is supporting competitive play when they clearly stated they would not be. It would take a large amount of development time to achieve, taking development time from other areas. It suggests implementing hostility which the majority of people are COMPLETELY against (and Blizzard has stated would NEVER be implemented). This isn't a compromise at all, its giving the competitive PvP players what they want without actually considering the ramifications at all.
Blizzard has openly stated they have no interest in managing two games (separate PvP and PvM featuresets, balance, etc). This is why the Arena mode is being designed as a casual system where people can just duke it out. Stop trying to shove something into the game that even the developers don't want.
The ONLY thing I could possibly think would be a viable 'middle ground' would be private Arenas. Same Arena rules as public, no customization, no extras, just Arena that you can invite people to. However, even that idea has turned sour in my mind due to my experience with the competitive PvP crowd here.
Not every game needs a ton of competitive options. You wouldn't go on a Farmville forum and demand they add competitive PvP with ladders, customization, etc...would you? Why do that kind of stuff here when clearly the developer's intent is casual?
Shut up with the "its to confusing" already. The only one that is confused is you. Blizzard can easily implement such PvP features without supporting eSports end point.
Second nobody said anything about hostility you are just giving us garbage to distract us.
Blizzard doesn't need to run "two games" all the have to do is give us our PvP features and never touch the PvP again. We will handle EVERYTHING else.
You are just an angry person that doesn't want to share.
Shut up with the "its to confusing" already. The only one that is confused is you. Blizzard can easily implement such PvP features without supporting eSports end point.
Second nobody said anything about hostility you are just giving us garbage to distract us.
Blizzard doesn't need to run "two games" all the have to do is give us our PvP features and never touch the PvP again. We will handle EVERYTHING else.
You are just an angry person that doesn't want to share.
They are giving you PvP features. You just are unable to accept them. As for the confusion comment, it was Blizzard that stated that implementing more competitively focused features would lead to confusion as to what level of support they giving PvP.
As for hostility, you didn't actually read the suggestion you stated yourself was a middle~ground did you? Right in the suggestion it asks to add 'hostility by consent', which is dueling or willful hostility...both of which Blizzard has stated they will never implement.
Blizzard would end up having to run 'two games' as they give people the impression that they are supporting eSports. Adding a large amount of features primarily focused on competitive play will create such an impression. In addition to creating the confusion, it will make Blizzard look bad due to half~implementing a competitive system. If it was as simple of an issue as you make it seem, why wouldn't they just do it?
As far as me being angry goes...I'm not? I have little to be angry about as Blizzard has stated their plans and their plans are what I want. If anyone is angry it seems to be you.
I only get angry when people accuse me of not reading the material and call me ignorant even if they don't outright say it.
Fist let me reword what I said about hostility. It would not be hostility if it was consented between players it would be duels like you have in WoW.
For the last time I know what Blizzard has said and where they stand. I am telling you and Blizzard it would not be confusing. They give us our features such as rankings and privite arenas and just say "we don't support eSports. The players will make it one on their own.
As for why they just don't do it? I think they are going to, it seems pretty inevitable to me.
For the last time I know what Blizzard has said and where they stand. I am telling you and Blizzard it would not be confusing. They give us our features such as rankings and privite arenas and just say "we don't support eSports. The players will make it one on their own.
I'm just going to comment on this part. This sounds a lot like putting a loaded gun on the table of a kindergarten class, saying "Don't touch it", and walking out for a couple hours. It creates a very mixed view as to the actual intentions. If Blizzard wanted to support that style of gameplay, they would. They wouldn't just do it half~way. Instead, they've stated that they do NOT want to support that style of play. Seems like them doing as you ask would be going against their statements.
Woah, just... wait, what? I don't even... I can't... What? How is that similar?!
I'll admit it is an extreme analogy. However, the point it makes is that you'd no~one would ever do something like that without actually having the intention. Why would Blizzard add features they knew would be used for eSports and then go and say they don't support eSports.
For the same reason they added map making tools for their strategy games. It adds to longevity of the game, it creates great environment for player creativity. Hostility was quite similar in Diablo 2. PvP wasn't supported much, but it was very open for creativity of players. This is precisely the reason why they shouldn't and most likely will not restrict PvP in Diablo 3 to simple random matchmaking arena.
There is a bit of a difference here. Blizzard specifically had that as an intent with those games. It wasn't like they designed the game stating they weren't going to support custom maps, but did it anyways. Here they have actually stated that they were not going to support eSport play. Adding the features needed for it, but continuing to stay they aren't supporting it... is akin to my analogy.
You keep talking like they need to add these features to keep the longevity of the game. The reality is, Inferno may very well take the majority of the community MONTHS to finish. This is with one character alone. This also doesn't include the fun challenge achievements, testing various builds, playing other classes, etc. By the time the game gets stale for the majority of the community they will likely have released an expansion. That means more content to master, possibly another class, etc.
So what reason do they NEED to add these features?
They stated they want to support PvP, so there is alot of expectations from that alone. Giving less possibilities than in previous games of the series hardly can be called a support. It's called a restriction. eSport is just a part of PvP and it involve solid balance, tournaments, maybe spectator mode on top of that, and definitely some people that would want to watch that. Everything else are tools for PvP that may or may not be used to create eSport environment. Everything that was mentioned before is not a design that would support eSport, but PvP as a whole.
They ARE supporting PvP, however, they aren't supporting PvP in the way you want them to. You see it as a restriction because the previous games didn't really have a system. They just ad a tacked~on hostile mode, that Blizzard themselves stated was a bad idea. Now we're getting an official system that is integrated, has matchmaking, etc. For a lot of us, the new system gives us an environment that is exactly what we want.
No, they don't need to make it to keep the longevity. I specificaly said they would add to longevity, which is quite important difference that make this part of your post invalid, also answers your question.
It doesn't quite answer the question. They have no NEED to actually implement these features. They have a PvP system in the works already to offer PvP~based longevity. With the PvM gameplay and future expansions, the game will last many years already. There isn't any need to add features that would create confusion and not represent Blizzard well.
As I said before, it can hardly be called a support. Few small, closed maps and tons of restriction for matchmaking (like gear score which will most likely not work anyway, inside the game). What I consider support is making what was available before without the known flaws, like forcing PvE players to participate in PvP.
Why are you so sure that they will not make thoes modes and your vision of PvP is the same as theirs? Could you provide me with official quote stating that it will never be implemented? All I know is that they do indeed consider custom games.
I don't believe I've stated that custom games will NEVER be implemented. They did however state that duels and hostility would not. Custom games they stated that the player~base itself is a good reason to NOT implement them. So it seems that Blizzard will be thinking long and hard about the benefits of adding them vs how it'll affect the community. Which, in my eyes, it'll affect the community negatively (and I believe Blizzard knows as such).
Now, as for support...how isn't it support? They are implementing official guidelines to playing PvP. Not giving support would be to not implement PvP at all. You need to clear your mind of Diablo 2 PvP and realize this IS A NEW GAME. You aren't entitled to Diablo 2 style PvP at all. This new style of PvP is one that the majority of players can jump right into and have fun. It doesn't need the features you proposed to be good because the whole point of it isn't being highly competitive. Its a new way to look at PvP that tries to just keep it fun and entertaining and that isn't a bad thing.
The problem is, so many old Diablo 2 players are fixated on the fact that they managed themselves in Diablo 2 (aka no support). Now that you're getting support (structure, matchmaking, etc), you feel like they are taking stuff away. However, that's not the case...they are actually giving you more SUPPORT for structured PvP. The side effect of giving more structured PvP is that now Blizzard manages PvP instead of the community. That is support, its just not support for a playstyle you might want.
They have no need to implement PvP at all, the game might be finished right now, yet it will be there. It's not a valid argument.
It's a perfectly valid argument. They had already put PvP to the side though, so your statement is wrong. PvP isn't the reason the game isn't out yet, so it wouldn't be 'finished' now if weren't doing PvP. The reality is, there is no need to implement the features you want in order for PvP to be good. The system they have proposed will be a fun system for the majority of players.
The only possible reason I could see a NEED to add such features is to allow 3rd~party competitive play (aka eSport). The only reason those people need these features is so that they can setup ranking systems to give them some method to compare themselves to others, essentially fluffing their ego. Why is that needed as part of Diablo 3 at all?
Duels and hostility is not what this topic is about. I could care less if they were added or not.
We have already discussed that negativity is an invalid argument because it's not the game that creates it or encourages it. It is the players that do. Furthermore negativity is subject to opinion which makes it even more invalid. The fact that it is to confusing is also an invalid argument.
You keep bringing up Diablo 2 when no one mentioned it. I never compared Diablo 3 PvP to Diablo 2 PvP because they are not the same exapecialy no without hostility. I would know I have played both of them.
Diablo 3 is already set up to be a great eSports game all it need is rankings and custom areans and maybe a spectator mode. Which all of this can be done and more a lot easier than creating a new expansion (which they are going to do anyways).
It is not support when they can easily implement such features but won't. As in Diablo 2 they weren't capable of doing so.
They have already stated that the game is finished, they finished weeks ago. All they are doing is server stress test which help the game as a whole. They have even stated that the only thing they are going to be working on in next few months is the PvP. We all know that they already gotten soo far since last Blizzcon. It is not like they are going to stop working on the PvP when it comes out either.
Sooner or later they will implement such features to make it an eSports anyway. They don't have to support it, the community will make it a great eSports without Blizzard.
As a side note stop acting high and mighty by accusing everyone that disagrees with you as wrong or saying they avoided you question. The only fact there is, is that everything here is people's opinions and last time I checked opinion can't be right or wrong they can only agree or disagree.
You cannot have a eSport without proper balancing. Look at every "true" eSport game out there. Each side is well balanced to ensure fair gameplay for every contestant. A game that relies 100% on randomly generated items and has no intentions of balancing class skills cannot be an eSport. It can be a very popular pvp game, but that's not the same thing.
Personally, I don't care what kind of pvp is offered in D3, as long as it isn't forced upon those that do not wish to participate in it.
Duels and hostility is not what this topic is about. I could care less if they were added or not.
Consentual hostility was specifically mentioned in the suggestion that you yourself stated was a middle ground. Please pay attention, I'm tired of repeating myself.
We have already discussed that negativity is an invalid argument because it's not the game that creates it or encourages it. It is the players that do. Furthermore negativity is subject to opinion which makes it even more invalid. The fact that it is to confusing is also an invalid argument.
It is a valid argument. Its just an argument that you don't agree with, and just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it invalid.
You keep bringing up Diablo 2 when no one mentioned it. I never compared Diablo 3 PvP to Diablo 2 PvP because they are not the same exapecialy no without hostility. I would know I have played both of them.
I bring up Diablo 2 because the 'features' you guys keep asking for are essentially a return to Diablo 2's system. As I actually prefer the new system, I don't want to see a return to the old ungoverned one.
Diablo 3 is already set up to be a great eSports game all it need is rankings and custom areans and maybe a spectator mode. Which all of this can be done and more a lot easier than creating a new expansion (which they are going to do anyways).
No, Diablo 3 is not setup to be a great eSport. It doesn't even have PvP at all currently, how could you possibly think that? It doesn't have classes balanced for PvP, so any balance would be purely player~driven. Its developers declared openly that they have no intention of supporting eSports in any official manner...that itself says the game is not setup for eSports.
They have already stated that the game is finished, they finished weeks ago. All they are doing is server stress test which help the game as a whole. They have even stated that the only thing they are going to be working on in next few months is the PvP. We all know that they already gotten soo far since last Blizzcon. It is not like they are going to stop working on the PvP when it comes out either.
Yes, they are going to work on PvP. Have I said ANYTHING to the contrary? They have never stated they will be working on adding features to promote competitive PvP play via a player~driven PvP community? Nope, they haven't.
Sooner or later they will implement such features to make it an eSports anyway. They don't have to support it, the community will make it a great eSports without Blizzard.
Why would they? They specifically stated they have no desire to make the game into an eSport. There is no reason for them to. If you truly believe this though, why are you even complaining here? If they are going to add it...sit back and let it happen, no?
As a side note stop acting high and mighty by accusing everyone that disagrees with you as wrong or saying they avoided you question. The only fact there is, is that everything here is people's opinions and last time I checked opinion can't be right or wrong they can only agree or disagree.
Actually when people make comments like "Blizzard WILL do this.." when Blizzard specifically states they will not, they are wrong. If I'm accusing people they are wrong often, its probably because they are making comments that specifically go against Blizzard's statements. If you see this as acting high and mighty, I'm sorry?
This thread is amusing. It appears to boil down, at least in the last few pages to:
"I think it will be easy for Blizz to add these specific features, and because a group of us wants it, Blizzard should" vs "But Blizz said they wouldn't. For these reasons."
The best part is when features start getting listed, and refered to as "easy" to add. Even better when said features include CTF. That doesn't sound like easy to add to me. Heck, given Blizz's work speed, we'd be waiting till 2014 to see it.
Diablo 3 is not going to be an eSport get over it and stop posting about it on the forums. They game was never intended to be really focused on PvP and personally I would rather them come out with more amazing content instead of having to move some of their team over to focus on PvP and either delay potential content or have its quality suffer...
How many people want Diablo to be an eSports? I know I would, it would give Diablo pvp a whole new meaning. I think it would work great and get better the more blizzard works with it. You can compare it to wow pvp (I'd rather not lol) Diablo has Line of Sight, Cool-downs, Crowd Controls, Buffs, different builds for variety and does take teamwork and skill to win. Diablo 3 has already become way more complex than click-to-smash like in Diablo 2 (don't get me wrong I love Diablo 2). They could incorporate multiple pvp version like TDM, LMS, CTF or whatever the players want.
I was lucky enough to go to last years Blizzcon and exsperiance the Diablo 3 pvp multiple times. All the classes were very balanced there was no annoying healer like in wow and it was a whole lot more fun than wow. They could also incorporate an arena system and have the finals at Blizzcon every year. Sense they don't do Warcraft tournaments there is a spot open. If started early the eSports would last a long time since there is going to be 2 or 3 exspansions with the game.
I know the said they wouldn't do it but they also said that if there was enough of us who wants Diablo 3 to be an eSport they would do it. So who wants a more competitive pvp?
I think your on to something, that diablo has all the makings of a competitive esport. I also think it should be a little more seperate from the main diablo game,
What you're asking for is Blizzard throwing a lot of development effort into custom Arena games, when their overall goal is specifically to not focus development on competitive features. I think this is something that people forget to realize when saying "Blizzard SHOULD this.." is that it actually ISN'T in Blizzard's best interest to do as you suggest.
Their design for PvP is focused towards casual PvP. They've stated this multiple times. If they implement a feature~set that is focused towards competitive play, it muddles the focus of their design. It creates confusion as to how much support is supposed to be offered, etc.
I'm a bit curious... why is there such a NEED to add competitive PvP into a game that it's developers have already said wasn't their goal? Why do those that are more competitive seem to be entitled to having it in a new game? I know that people liked it in Diablo 2. However, that isn't a goal with Diablo 3 and why should it be? It isn't like Diablo 2 is going away...
"So for me, if a community builds around it similar to the community that built around Diablo II, then I will feel like it’s a success. If that community is vibrant and wars with each other, and with us, and struggles and fights to make the game better, then to me that's worth continuing to work on the game. That’s success." - Jay Wilson, Director of Diablo 3
Ecut sits there and criticizes the Diablo 2 community and how bad they were and how they arn't welcomed in D3. Yet Jay Wilson, his idol is basing the games success on if Diablo 3's community can match up to Diablo 2's. Even uses such words as "community is vibrant and wars with each other, and with us, and struggles and fights to make the game better". You don't get that kind of a community if Blizzard holds everyones hands and doesn't give us the ability to craft it ourselves. You don't get that in "casual" arena where losses and wins apparently mean nothing to the mass majority. You don't get that in a predominantly PvM game.
Do you even realize how long the options you just stated would actually take a large development company like Blizzard to actually do? Interface design alone could take a month or two through quality control. Its not some trivial task as you seem to think. It takes sizable effort.
In addition, you've failed to give a reason why these features would actually be worth the time investment as well. They go against the design that Blizzard has set forth, they would split the community between public and private PvP, etc. I've given reasons they shouldn't add it. It really is like going to a Pokemon forum and complaining that their next game isn't an FPS, because you want it to be. Diablo 3 isn't a competitive PvP game. Why is that so hard to grasp?
I don't believe I've stated that the Diablo 2 community is bad, or how they aren't welcome. Specifically I stated that those (like yourself) that cannot come to terms with the fact that Diablo 3 is a new game, with a new design, and gameplay...maybe shouldn't buy it. If you're so fixated on the fact that Diablo 3 doesn't have what you loved about Diablo 2... then perhaps you should keep playing Diablo 2.
Many people actually like the new direction Blizzard has taken with Diablo 3 and don't want them to change gears and focus more on even further PvP additions. Blizzard isn't 'holding your hand', they are making a game that has more structured rules. You don't like that, and you lash out. Just because Blizzard didn't design the game FOR YOU doesn't make it a bad game design, or anything of the sort. It just means its a new game that you might not enjoy playing. Which means you stick with a game you do like instead... how is that a bad thing?
I'm curious if either of you stating this is a middle ground ACTUALLY read it. This option creates the EXACT confusion I was stating would happen. It gives people the impression that Blizzard is supporting competitive play when they clearly stated they would not be. It would take a large amount of development time to achieve, taking development time from other areas. It suggests implementing hostility which the majority of people are COMPLETELY against (and Blizzard has stated would NEVER be implemented). This isn't a compromise at all, its giving the competitive PvP players what they want without actually considering the ramifications at all.
Blizzard has openly stated they have no interest in managing two games (separate PvP and PvM featuresets, balance, etc). This is why the Arena mode is being designed as a casual system where people can just duke it out. Stop trying to shove something into the game that even the developers don't want.
The ONLY thing I could possibly think would be a viable 'middle ground' would be private Arenas. Same Arena rules as public, no customization, no extras, just Arena that you can invite people to. However, even that idea has turned sour in my mind due to my experience with the competitive PvP crowd here.
Not every game needs a ton of competitive options. You wouldn't go on a Farmville forum and demand they add competitive PvP with ladders, customization, etc...would you? Why do that kind of stuff here when clearly the developer's intent is casual?
Second nobody said anything about hostility you are just giving us garbage to distract us.
Blizzard doesn't need to run "two games" all the have to do is give us our PvP features and never touch the PvP again. We will handle EVERYTHING else.
You are just an angry person that doesn't want to share.
They are giving you PvP features. You just are unable to accept them. As for the confusion comment, it was Blizzard that stated that implementing more competitively focused features would lead to confusion as to what level of support they giving PvP.
As for hostility, you didn't actually read the suggestion you stated yourself was a middle~ground did you? Right in the suggestion it asks to add 'hostility by consent', which is dueling or willful hostility...both of which Blizzard has stated they will never implement.
Blizzard would end up having to run 'two games' as they give people the impression that they are supporting eSports. Adding a large amount of features primarily focused on competitive play will create such an impression. In addition to creating the confusion, it will make Blizzard look bad due to half~implementing a competitive system. If it was as simple of an issue as you make it seem, why wouldn't they just do it?
As far as me being angry goes...I'm not? I have little to be angry about as Blizzard has stated their plans and their plans are what I want. If anyone is angry it seems to be you.
Fist let me reword what I said about hostility. It would not be hostility if it was consented between players it would be duels like you have in WoW.
For the last time I know what Blizzard has said and where they stand. I am telling you and Blizzard it would not be confusing. They give us our features such as rankings and privite arenas and just say "we don't support eSports. The players will make it one on their own.
As for why they just don't do it? I think they are going to, it seems pretty inevitable to me.
I'm just going to comment on this part. This sounds a lot like putting a loaded gun on the table of a kindergarten class, saying "Don't touch it", and walking out for a couple hours. It creates a very mixed view as to the actual intentions. If Blizzard wanted to support that style of gameplay, they would. They wouldn't just do it half~way. Instead, they've stated that they do NOT want to support that style of play. Seems like them doing as you ask would be going against their statements.
I'll admit it is an extreme analogy. However, the point it makes is that you'd no~one would ever do something like that without actually having the intention. Why would Blizzard add features they knew would be used for eSports and then go and say they don't support eSports.
There is a bit of a difference here. Blizzard specifically had that as an intent with those games. It wasn't like they designed the game stating they weren't going to support custom maps, but did it anyways. Here they have actually stated that they were not going to support eSport play. Adding the features needed for it, but continuing to stay they aren't supporting it... is akin to my analogy.
You keep talking like they need to add these features to keep the longevity of the game. The reality is, Inferno may very well take the majority of the community MONTHS to finish. This is with one character alone. This also doesn't include the fun challenge achievements, testing various builds, playing other classes, etc. By the time the game gets stale for the majority of the community they will likely have released an expansion. That means more content to master, possibly another class, etc.
So what reason do they NEED to add these features?
They ARE supporting PvP, however, they aren't supporting PvP in the way you want them to. You see it as a restriction because the previous games didn't really have a system. They just ad a tacked~on hostile mode, that Blizzard themselves stated was a bad idea. Now we're getting an official system that is integrated, has matchmaking, etc. For a lot of us, the new system gives us an environment that is exactly what we want.
It doesn't quite answer the question. They have no NEED to actually implement these features. They have a PvP system in the works already to offer PvP~based longevity. With the PvM gameplay and future expansions, the game will last many years already. There isn't any need to add features that would create confusion and not represent Blizzard well.
I don't believe I've stated that custom games will NEVER be implemented. They did however state that duels and hostility would not. Custom games they stated that the player~base itself is a good reason to NOT implement them. So it seems that Blizzard will be thinking long and hard about the benefits of adding them vs how it'll affect the community. Which, in my eyes, it'll affect the community negatively (and I believe Blizzard knows as such).
Now, as for support...how isn't it support? They are implementing official guidelines to playing PvP. Not giving support would be to not implement PvP at all. You need to clear your mind of Diablo 2 PvP and realize this IS A NEW GAME. You aren't entitled to Diablo 2 style PvP at all. This new style of PvP is one that the majority of players can jump right into and have fun. It doesn't need the features you proposed to be good because the whole point of it isn't being highly competitive. Its a new way to look at PvP that tries to just keep it fun and entertaining and that isn't a bad thing.
The problem is, so many old Diablo 2 players are fixated on the fact that they managed themselves in Diablo 2 (aka no support). Now that you're getting support (structure, matchmaking, etc), you feel like they are taking stuff away. However, that's not the case...they are actually giving you more SUPPORT for structured PvP. The side effect of giving more structured PvP is that now Blizzard manages PvP instead of the community. That is support, its just not support for a playstyle you might want.
It's a perfectly valid argument. They had already put PvP to the side though, so your statement is wrong. PvP isn't the reason the game isn't out yet, so it wouldn't be 'finished' now if weren't doing PvP. The reality is, there is no need to implement the features you want in order for PvP to be good. The system they have proposed will be a fun system for the majority of players.
The only possible reason I could see a NEED to add such features is to allow 3rd~party competitive play (aka eSport). The only reason those people need these features is so that they can setup ranking systems to give them some method to compare themselves to others, essentially fluffing their ego. Why is that needed as part of Diablo 3 at all?
We have already discussed that negativity is an invalid argument because it's not the game that creates it or encourages it. It is the players that do. Furthermore negativity is subject to opinion which makes it even more invalid. The fact that it is to confusing is also an invalid argument.
You keep bringing up Diablo 2 when no one mentioned it. I never compared Diablo 3 PvP to Diablo 2 PvP because they are not the same exapecialy no without hostility. I would know I have played both of them.
Diablo 3 is already set up to be a great eSports game all it need is rankings and custom areans and maybe a spectator mode. Which all of this can be done and more a lot easier than creating a new expansion (which they are going to do anyways).
It is not support when they can easily implement such features but won't. As in Diablo 2 they weren't capable of doing so.
They have already stated that the game is finished, they finished weeks ago. All they are doing is server stress test which help the game as a whole. They have even stated that the only thing they are going to be working on in next few months is the PvP. We all know that they already gotten soo far since last Blizzcon. It is not like they are going to stop working on the PvP when it comes out either.
Sooner or later they will implement such features to make it an eSports anyway. They don't have to support it, the community will make it a great eSports without Blizzard.
As a side note stop acting high and mighty by accusing everyone that disagrees with you as wrong or saying they avoided you question. The only fact there is, is that everything here is people's opinions and last time I checked opinion can't be right or wrong they can only agree or disagree.
Personally, I don't care what kind of pvp is offered in D3, as long as it isn't forced upon those that do not wish to participate in it.
Consentual hostility was specifically mentioned in the suggestion that you yourself stated was a middle ground. Please pay attention, I'm tired of repeating myself.
It is a valid argument. Its just an argument that you don't agree with, and just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it invalid.
I bring up Diablo 2 because the 'features' you guys keep asking for are essentially a return to Diablo 2's system. As I actually prefer the new system, I don't want to see a return to the old ungoverned one.
No, Diablo 3 is not setup to be a great eSport. It doesn't even have PvP at all currently, how could you possibly think that? It doesn't have classes balanced for PvP, so any balance would be purely player~driven. Its developers declared openly that they have no intention of supporting eSports in any official manner...that itself says the game is not setup for eSports.
It is support when they implement PvP in an official manner. They are not supporting the type of PvP you want, quite a different thing.
Yes, they are going to work on PvP. Have I said ANYTHING to the contrary? They have never stated they will be working on adding features to promote competitive PvP play via a player~driven PvP community? Nope, they haven't.
Why would they? They specifically stated they have no desire to make the game into an eSport. There is no reason for them to. If you truly believe this though, why are you even complaining here? If they are going to add it...sit back and let it happen, no?
Actually when people make comments like "Blizzard WILL do this.." when Blizzard specifically states they will not, they are wrong. If I'm accusing people they are wrong often, its probably because they are making comments that specifically go against Blizzard's statements. If you see this as acting high and mighty, I'm sorry?
"I think it will be easy for Blizz to add these specific features, and because a group of us wants it, Blizzard should" vs "But Blizz said they wouldn't. For these reasons."
The best part is when features start getting listed, and refered to as "easy" to add. Even better when said features include CTF. That doesn't sound like easy to add to me. Heck, given Blizz's work speed, we'd be waiting till 2014 to see it.
I think your on to something, that diablo has all the makings of a competitive esport. I also think it should be a little more seperate from the main diablo game,
http://www.youtube.com/user/ndstad?feature=mhee
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