So I'm thinking, what combination of classes makes for the most flexible and versatile combination in WoW? A team of 5 warriors isn't great, just as a combo of 5 priests isn't too good either.
Now, I just don't want 5 characters that can fill all roles effectively. Five druids could obviously manage most instances, if not all, but they would all have to fight for the same loot, leaving mail and plate of no use to any of them.
Thus, I figured if any of you have any inputs, feel free to give them. In a constructive manner.
(Note: This is speculation from my side. i do not claim that the classes perform as I've described them in reality, only that's my view of them. I haven't played WoW for five months, but I am thinking of maybe starting again, and this thought intrigued me.)
Main Tank: Warrior vs Druid vs Paladin
Any of these are capable of tanking exceptionally well, but to take advantage of plate drops I'm going to remove the druid from the group. That leaves the paladin and the warrior, and while the former can tank, and excels at tanking large amounts of mobs, the warrior I'd say is more dependable and more efficient at tanking single targets, such as bosses.
Choice: Warrior
Main Healer: Priest vs Druid vs Shaman vs Paladin
I'm not very experienced when it comes to healer, but based on intuition I'd pick the priest, simply because the priest is the class that is mainly designed to heal. On the other hand, the paladin can heal very well and ver fast, while providing excellent buffs in the form of blessings and auras.
The druid, while a great healer, has a harder time healing without using his HoT spells. Healing Touch is effective, but takes a long time to cast, and his lack of a ressurect-ability without a cooldown is a serious minus.
The shaman has chain heal and totems, great in their own ways, but from I've understand have a harder time managing their mana than the other classes. Since this whole setup is based on not having raid gear, I figure the shaman is a bit harder to cooperate with.
Choice: Priest
Support: Druid vs Shaman vs Paladin
I'd definately pick the druid here. The druid can, with one build, be both tank, secondary healer and DPS depending on the situation. The paladin, while an excellent healer and tank, has a harder time dps'ing. And the Shaman, from my understanding, also has a hard time keeping up with cat dps.
Choice: Druid
DPS 1 & 2: Hunter vs Rogue vs Mage vs Warlock
Thus we come to the last stop. And for this, we need multiple forms of damage, and lots of CC. All of them have it all, so the decision is a tough one. Personally, I don't think it matters that much what classes you pick, but since we're trying to get the "best", I'll have to select two.
The mage is a good first choice. Polymorph, Conjure Water & Food, Direct damage spells. It allows for effective and very useful CC, the water is great to easily reduce downtime, and the direct damage spells easily allows the mage to focus on one target, which goes well with the single-target tanking warrior, as opposed to the warlock which usually relies on DoT's. A destruction warlock outside of raids would suffer greatly from a low mana-pool in regular instances.
A hunter or rouge then? I'd go with the hunter. Ranged DPS which is always nice, and traps which are not only limitd to humanoids such as Sap. Since we allready have polymorph for that, I opt for the hunter. Plus we get someone to take the mail loot, finishing up with one plate class, one mail class, one leather class and two cloth classes.
Choice: Mage & Hunter
Final Setup
Main Tank: Warrior
Main Healer: Priest
Support Tank/Healer/DPS: Druid
DPS: Mage
DPS: Hunter
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Any of these are capable of tanking exceptionally well, but to take advantage of plate drops I'm going to remove the druid from the group. That leaves the paladin and the warrior, and while the former can tank, and excels at tanking large amounts of mobs, the warrior I'd say is more dependable and more efficient at tanking single targets, such as bosses.
Choice: Warrior
Well unlike the normal Bear form the Dire Bear has 400%+ def. I think that would more then make up for the lack of plate armour. Plus druids (even tank druids) can do excelent healing and DPS should they need to. And it's always good to be flexible.
I'm not sure about the rest of the team though, but it looks reasonably sound.
Well unlike the normal Bear form the Dire Bear has 400%+ def. I think that would more then make up for the lack of plate armour. Plus druids (even tank druids) can do excelent healing and DPS should they need to. And it's always good to be flexible.
I'm not sure about the rest of the team though, but it looks reasonably sound.
Which I am aware of. The point I was trying to make was only to conserve plate drops and not have them vendored or disenchanted, not that they are needed for tanking specifically.
And your second point is exacly why I'd like to have a druid anyway. He's flexible and can be tank, healer or dps dependng on the situation. But if they druid is the main tank, he cannot start healing in the middle of the fight (at most times) since he's the tank
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I didn't think it needs further elaboration, anyway here you go.
Don't assume that. If I just wanted a list, I wouldn't have bothered to post my elaborate arguments to begin with :rolleyes:
Quote from "Calyx" »
Prot warrior holy priest no additional comment.
Combat sword or dagger rogue. Never goes out of mana, sustainable high dps. Sap.
Destro lock, very nice burst damage, soulstone in case of wipe, should you have mana problems life tap is your friend. Imp for extra health.
Enhance shammy with the remaining points spent in resto. Fo totems additional dps, occasional healing and to do something with the mail.
Ok, I see what you mean. I don't know if the warlock is all too good for 5-mans like these, sure he can lifetap, but since he's destro and not afflicion, be will pretty much be counting on being healed up again afterwards. And the soulstone, while nice indeed, isn't all that necessary in my mind. From my experience, either you don't wipe at all, or you wipe more than the soulstone covers for
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Thus we come to the last stop. And for this, we need multiple forms of damage, and lots of CC. All of them have it all, so the decision is a tough one. Personally, I don't think it matters that much what classes you pick, but since we're trying to get the "best", I'll have to select two.
The mage is a good first choice. Polymorph, Conjure Water & Food, Direct damage spells. It allows for effective and very useful CC, the water is great to easily reduce downtime, and the direct damage spells easily allows the mage to focus on one target, which goes well with the single-target tanking warrior, as opposed to the warlock which usually relies on DoT's. A destruction warlock outside of raids would suffer greatly from a low mana-pool in regular instances.
A hunter or rouge then? I'd go with the hunter. Ranged DPS which is always nice, and traps which are not only limitd to humanoids such as Sap. Since we allready have polymorph for that, I opt for the hunter. Plus we get someone to take the mail loot, finishing up with one plate class, one mail class, one leather class and two cloth classes.
Choice: Mage & Hunter
plus hunters have Viper sting, draining like 3k mana, which is ALWAYS nice =)
when you say this, im of course thinking of 5v5 pvp. if you mean something like an instance, then... yeah. xD
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
World of Warcraft - Finnegin- Level 80 Enhancement Shaman
for main tank i'd take warrior but not for the plate. the Warriors biggest advantage is blocking. with every block you cut off around 300-400 damage. with 3 hits blocked its already 1k dmg. demoralizing shout also reduces the damage taken significantly, not to mention thunder clap that also works on bosses. imagine that decent geared warriors have around 20% block and parry.
feral druid is solid dps as cat and very decent in tanking, even with some dps gear on. 20k armor and 20-30% dodge is awesome, no? so i suggest a feral druid as dps that can tank if the main tank dies.
as of healers i think paladins are the best. no shield spells for the others (like priest) but short and strong (and cheap) direct heals and plate+shield make him extremely strong. Add the bubble and you got an idea about mass healing in heroics.
in dps i expect at least 1 mage. the dps output together with his crowd control and aoe make him a must have for every group (thats why i'm a mage, bwahaha!).
for the last spot theres a random dps. rogues have some crowd control and are the best melee range dps in the game. Hunters are decent in almost everything and help with aggro management (missdirection owns). Warlocks can do miracles if they know how to play and shadow priests are the most welcome mana batteries in the game.
(Note: This is speculation from my side. i do not claim that the classes perform as I've described them in reality, only that's my view of them. I haven't played WoW for five months, [B]but I am thinking of maybe starting again,[/B'] and this thought intrigued me.)
you should come join me carlos and fenatic on anetheron ; )
anyhow, i think the classes all have equal pros and cons really. it seems like pallys have harder times with single targets but all you have to do about that is just wait a little longer before you start dropping bombs. a druid tank might not have a shield, but they get a little more life than warriors and they a shit load of armor. right now im only up to karazhan in raid experience, but i know there's certain fights where you'd rather have this or you'd rather have that, but usually you can get by with an alternative.
but my dream party is (bear in mind im a fire mage) pally tank, holy priest,(tank and healer don't really matter) then a mage(fire for instances) a balance druid, and elemental shaman. I've yet to have a party with a balance druid and ele shammy but it would kick so much ass.... i'd be critting up the ass and hitting ridiculously hard... lol i would love to find a party like this... sigh
oh and the thing about the support tank/healer/dps is kinda unfamiliar to me. i mean, i've seen off tanks, but not in any heroics or instances. only in karazhan so far. usually we just have healer tank 3 dps. although today we did have a fury warrior offtank. made it a little easier actually.
Which I am aware of. The point I was trying to make was only to conserve plate drops and not have them vendored or disenchanted, not that they are needed for tanking specifically.
And your second point is exacly why I'd like to have a druid anyway. He's flexible and can be tank, healer or dps dependng on the situation. But if they druid is the main tank, he cannot start healing in the middle of the fight (at most times) since he's the tank
Hmm... And if the druid was healer he couldnt help tank... Probably be best to have the druid as DPS with option of pulling back and assisting the priest or going dire bear and helping the tank?
a feral druid healing would hardly have enough mana to heal efficiently. Depending on the role (tank/melee dps/caster dps/healer) the druid has completely different sets of gear. Feral dps uses agi/strength and crit alot. Feral tank armor, strength and stamina. balance (spell dps) anything with spell dmg and crit on them and resto (healing) everything that adds to healing. In end-game raid instances its impossible to use a combo set of equipment and be efficient in everything. Only on a certain boss in Karazhan we had resto druids tank, and that because this certain boss has a buff that increases your life for several thousands (and also gave you aggro).
Only feral dps can tank efficiently in normal instances (if he knows what to do) and semi-efficiently in heroics. Warriors in dps gear have too low hp to manage tanking in heroics even if they swap weapons.
a feral druid healing would hardly have enough mana to heal efficiently. Depending on the role (tank/melee dps/caster dps/healer) the druid has completely different sets of gear. Feral dps uses agi/strength and crit alot. Feral tank armor, strength and stamina. balance (spell dps) anything with spell dmg and crit on them and resto (healing) everything that adds to healing. In end-game raid instances its impossible to use a combo set of equipment and be efficient in everything. Only on a certain boss in Karazhan we had resto druids tank, and that because this certain boss has a buff that increases your life for several thousands (and also gave you aggro).
Only feral dps can tank efficiently in normal instances (if he knows what to do) and semi-efficiently in heroics. Warriors in dps gear have too low hp to manage tanking in heroics even if they swap weapons.
Well my highest WoW char was 30 before I stopped playing. (Belf Paladin.)
So yea, I was just talking from my experience. Still be better to have someone who can do two things rather then one though, right?
you should come join me carlos and fenatic on anetheron ; )
anyhow, i think the classes all have equal pros and cons really. it seems like pallys have harder times with single targets but all you have to do about that is just wait a little longer before you start dropping bombs. a druid tank might not have a shield, but they get a little more life than warriors and they a shit load of armor. right now im only up to karazhan in raid experience, but i know there's certain fights where you'd rather have this or you'd rather have that, but usually you can get by with an alternative.
but my dream party is (bear in mind im a fire mage) pally tank, holy priest,(tank and healer don't really matter) then a mage(fire for instances) a balance druid, and elemental shaman. I've yet to have a party with a balance druid and ele shammy but it would kick so much ass.... i'd be critting up the ass and hitting ridiculously hard... lol i would love to find a party like this... sigh
oh and the thing about the support tank/healer/dps is kinda unfamiliar to me. i mean, i've seen off tanks, but not in any heroics or instances. only in karazhan so far. usually we just have healer tank 3 dps. although today we did have a fury warrior offtank. made it a little easier actually.
who said that quote, i cant find it
also, there is me and ferret on destromath.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
World of Warcraft - Finnegin- Level 80 Enhancement Shaman
Still be better to have someone who can do two things rather then one though, right?
depends on what you want to do. you definitely need some key roles to be filled with specific classes in end level game. A good feral druid can help with both dps and offtanking in many occasions but only as long as theres a good healer in the group. and you need pure dps classes too to make things work. Now raiding is completely different...
Just a note guys, your all providing excellent arguments, but i noticed the name of the thread is the most FLEXIBLE 5 man team, not the best 5 man team.
for main tank i'd take warrior but not for the plate. the Warriors biggest advantage is blocking. with every block you cut off around 300-400 damage. with 3 hits blocked its already 1k dmg. demoralizing shout also reduces the damage taken significantly, not to mention thunder clap that also works on bosses. imagine that decent geared warriors have around 20% block and parry.
Right. But once again, I did not say plate because I consider it superior to leather, but because I just thought it would be a waste to disenchant all those plate drops
Quote from "FingolfinGR" »
as of healers i think paladins are the best. no shield spells for the others (like priest) but short and strong (and cheap) direct heals and plate+shield make him extremely strong. Add the bubble and you got an idea about mass healing in heroics.
I have no healer experience, so I guess that's be true.
Quote from "FingolfinGR" »
for the last spot theres a random dps. rogues have some crowd control and are the best melee range dps in the game. Hunters are decent in almost everything and help with aggro management (missdirection owns). Warlocks can do miracles if they know how to play and shadow priests are the most welcome mana batteries in the game.
Where does that place the shaman?
Quote from "Fudlow" »
you should come join me carlos and fenatic on anetheron ; )
I live in Europe...
Quote from "FingolfinGR" »
oh and the thing about the support tank/healer/dps is kinda unfamiliar to me. i mean, i've seen off tanks, but not in any heroics or instances. only in karazhan so far. usually we just have healer tank 3 dps. although today we did have a fury warrior offtank. made it a little easier actually.
That was mainly meant to that if a fight requires a slightly different approach, I want the druid for example to be able to switch roles temporarily. Not necessarily during the fight though.
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druids can do that easily with good enough gear (that they can get easily from questing/leveling) which is one of the reasons i added a feral in my dream group. Any healer might need backup, even from a spec that doesnt suit it that well.
from my (little) healing experience, even with pretty crappy gear as a paladin, i'm pretty hard to go down and let the tank go down if he knows what hes doing (which is hardly the case in pugs). The mana regained /5 sec is enough for one "small" heal (that non critically heals for over 1000 health and takes 1.5 sec to cast). Paladins need to be really good to heal people that take ae damage (meaning all taking damage at the same time) which is easier as a shaman (with high aggro) or priest (prayer of healing really rocks) and even as druid (tranquility i think).
as for the shamans i never really liked them as a class, but truth is they can work very well both as healers and dps (melee and caster). Where caster dps can heal decently (again with high cost). Mana totem is pretty cool for the rest of the caster dps/healers too so i guess they're nice
as for the shamans i never really liked them as a class, but truth is they can work very well both as healers and dps (melee and caster). Where caster dps can heal decently (again with high cost). Mana totem is pretty cool for the rest of the caster dps/healers too so i guess they're nice
they got the spell damage and healing totem too, which i love.
Provides the best aggro, stun, and life. Easy to keep alive and going, as all they need is heals and no mana.
Healer - Holy Pally/Holy priest
These two I think go head to head. While the Priest may be more effective at healing, they do depend a bit on shielding. Being a paladin, I also have to say paladins are very efficient at healing, and they have plate armor. It's harder to bring him down if for whatever reason the tank doesn't hold aggro or patrols run in.
Support - Druid
Can take up role as tank or healer if either dies.
Dps - Dual weild Warrior and mage
DW warrior at least has a chance to take up role of a tank if for whatever reason the main tank and the support dies, as well as dishing out a good amount of damage. Mages have an amazing amount of damage, and that definately helps speed instances faster.
I've seen Fuddy tank instances up to lvl 50ish, which is saying alot. We can probably run any instance 60 and under by ourselves.
DW warrior at least has a chance to take up role of a tank if for whatever reason the main tank and the support dies, as well as dishing out a good amount of damage. Mages have an amazing amount of damage, and that definately helps speed instances faster.
I certanly hope though taht you do not mean for the Fury warrior to continue as a tank without a shield
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Now, I just don't want 5 characters that can fill all roles effectively. Five druids could obviously manage most instances, if not all, but they would all have to fight for the same loot, leaving mail and plate of no use to any of them.
Thus, I figured if any of you have any inputs, feel free to give them. In a constructive manner.
(Note: This is speculation from my side. i do not claim that the classes perform as I've described them in reality, only that's my view of them. I haven't played WoW for five months, but I am thinking of maybe starting again, and this thought intrigued me.)
Any of these are capable of tanking exceptionally well, but to take advantage of plate drops I'm going to remove the druid from the group. That leaves the paladin and the warrior, and while the former can tank, and excels at tanking large amounts of mobs, the warrior I'd say is more dependable and more efficient at tanking single targets, such as bosses.
Choice: Warrior
The druid, while a great healer, has a harder time healing without using his HoT spells. Healing Touch is effective, but takes a long time to cast, and his lack of a ressurect-ability without a cooldown is a serious minus.
The shaman has chain heal and totems, great in their own ways, but from I've understand have a harder time managing their mana than the other classes. Since this whole setup is based on not having raid gear, I figure the shaman is a bit harder to cooperate with.
Choice: Priest
Choice: Druid
The mage is a good first choice. Polymorph, Conjure Water & Food, Direct damage spells. It allows for effective and very useful CC, the water is great to easily reduce downtime, and the direct damage spells easily allows the mage to focus on one target, which goes well with the single-target tanking warrior, as opposed to the warlock which usually relies on DoT's. A destruction warlock outside of raids would suffer greatly from a low mana-pool in regular instances.
A hunter or rouge then? I'd go with the hunter. Ranged DPS which is always nice, and traps which are not only limitd to humanoids such as Sap. Since we allready have polymorph for that, I opt for the hunter. Plus we get someone to take the mail loot, finishing up with one plate class, one mail class, one leather class and two cloth classes.
Choice: Mage & Hunter
Main Tank: Warrior
Main Healer: Priest
Support Tank/Healer/DPS: Druid
DPS: Mage
DPS: Hunter
I'm not sure about the rest of the team though, but it looks reasonably sound.
And your second point is exacly why I'd like to have a druid anyway. He's flexible and can be tank, healer or dps dependng on the situation. But if they druid is the main tank, he cannot start healing in the middle of the fight (at most times) since he's the tank
Ok, I see what you mean. I don't know if the warlock is all too good for 5-mans like these, sure he can lifetap, but since he's destro and not afflicion, be will pretty much be counting on being healed up again afterwards. And the soulstone, while nice indeed, isn't all that necessary in my mind. From my experience, either you don't wipe at all, or you wipe more than the soulstone covers for
plus hunters have Viper sting, draining like 3k mana, which is ALWAYS nice =)
when you say this, im of course thinking of 5v5 pvp. if you mean something like an instance, then... yeah. xD
feral druid is solid dps as cat and very decent in tanking, even with some dps gear on. 20k armor and 20-30% dodge is awesome, no? so i suggest a feral druid as dps that can tank if the main tank dies.
as of healers i think paladins are the best. no shield spells for the others (like priest) but short and strong (and cheap) direct heals and plate+shield make him extremely strong. Add the bubble and you got an idea about mass healing in heroics.
in dps i expect at least 1 mage. the dps output together with his crowd control and aoe make him a must have for every group (thats why i'm a mage, bwahaha!).
for the last spot theres a random dps. rogues have some crowd control and are the best melee range dps in the game. Hunters are decent in almost everything and help with aggro management (missdirection owns). Warlocks can do miracles if they know how to play and shadow priests are the most welcome mana batteries in the game.
you should come join me carlos and fenatic on anetheron ; )
anyhow, i think the classes all have equal pros and cons really. it seems like pallys have harder times with single targets but all you have to do about that is just wait a little longer before you start dropping bombs. a druid tank might not have a shield, but they get a little more life than warriors and they a shit load of armor. right now im only up to karazhan in raid experience, but i know there's certain fights where you'd rather have this or you'd rather have that, but usually you can get by with an alternative.
but my dream party is (bear in mind im a fire mage) pally tank, holy priest,(tank and healer don't really matter) then a mage(fire for instances) a balance druid, and elemental shaman. I've yet to have a party with a balance druid and ele shammy but it would kick so much ass.... i'd be critting up the ass and hitting ridiculously hard... lol i would love to find a party like this... sigh
oh and the thing about the support tank/healer/dps is kinda unfamiliar to me. i mean, i've seen off tanks, but not in any heroics or instances. only in karazhan so far. usually we just have healer tank 3 dps. although today we did have a fury warrior offtank. made it a little easier actually.
Hmm... And if the druid was healer he couldnt help tank... Probably be best to have the druid as DPS with option of pulling back and assisting the priest or going dire bear and helping the tank?
Only feral dps can tank efficiently in normal instances (if he knows what to do) and semi-efficiently in heroics. Warriors in dps gear have too low hp to manage tanking in heroics even if they swap weapons.
Well my highest WoW char was 30 before I stopped playing. (Belf Paladin.)
So yea, I was just talking from my experience. Still be better to have someone who can do two things rather then one though, right?
who said that quote, i cant find it
also, there is me and ferret on destromath.
depends on what you want to do. you definitely need some key roles to be filled with specific classes in end level game. A good feral druid can help with both dps and offtanking in many occasions but only as long as theres a good healer in the group. and you need pure dps classes too to make things work. Now raiding is completely different...
I have no healer experience, so I guess that's be true.
Where does that place the shaman?
I live in Europe...
That was mainly meant to that if a fight requires a slightly different approach, I want the druid for example to be able to switch roles temporarily. Not necessarily during the fight though.
from my (little) healing experience, even with pretty crappy gear as a paladin, i'm pretty hard to go down and let the tank go down if he knows what hes doing (which is hardly the case in pugs). The mana regained /5 sec is enough for one "small" heal (that non critically heals for over 1000 health and takes 1.5 sec to cast). Paladins need to be really good to heal people that take ae damage (meaning all taking damage at the same time) which is easier as a shaman (with high aggro) or priest (prayer of healing really rocks) and even as druid (tranquility i think).
as for the shamans i never really liked them as a class, but truth is they can work very well both as healers and dps (melee and caster). Where caster dps can heal decently (again with high cost). Mana totem is pretty cool for the rest of the caster dps/healers too so i guess they're nice
don't u have a mage?? how do u not love shamans?
Provides the best aggro, stun, and life. Easy to keep alive and going, as all they need is heals and no mana.
Healer - Holy Pally/Holy priest
These two I think go head to head. While the Priest may be more effective at healing, they do depend a bit on shielding. Being a paladin, I also have to say paladins are very efficient at healing, and they have plate armor. It's harder to bring him down if for whatever reason the tank doesn't hold aggro or patrols run in.
Support - Druid
Can take up role as tank or healer if either dies.
Dps - Dual weild Warrior and mage
DW warrior at least has a chance to take up role of a tank if for whatever reason the main tank and the support dies, as well as dishing out a good amount of damage. Mages have an amazing amount of damage, and that definately helps speed instances faster.
I've seen Fuddy tank instances up to lvl 50ish, which is saying alot. We can probably run any instance 60 and under by ourselves.