I swear...this looked the trailer of some cheesy horror movie.
In our modern world, it's natural for people to look for some tangible scientific facts to understand religion but when these facts are used to justify religious views it becomes just sad. It happened in the gay marriage thread and it will certainly happen here.
And trying to justify a religious notion/view by scientific findings is nowhere near the concept of understanding/gaining true knowledge as it is of arrogance, close-mindedness and condescension.
But in all seriousness, we are making a deal of it because we are debating Science vs. Religion. So, if we follow logic and common sense, a frequent argument made by Christians can be discussed in this thread -,-
Depending on your upbringing, religion and faith can be a very difficult topic. Myself my mother was a dress your best for Sunday appearances Methodist, my dad after their divorce became a zealot evangelical Christian speaking in tongues and all.
At the age of 6 I took a flashlight outside my mom told me not too, when I got caught because it was missing she made me put my hand on a huge 3x3 feet (.9x.9 meter) table bible and swear I didn't disobey her, fearing a spanking more than the book I lied. She then told me I lied on the bible and that I was going to hell. So at the ripe age of 6 I was fucked LMAO! I gave that bible 6 foot clearance every time I went into the living room where it laid for a few years. I thought it would flip open and suck me in or something.
Then 4 years later my dad noticed during one of my 2 week visits up to his place I was into secular rock music and feared for my spiritual safety. That lead to me and my sisters being forcibly immersed into an 8 hour session of educational tapes by a washed up musician converted Christian named Craig Harrington (34 years later I still remember his name) who in a nutshell said that following would send me to hell: Cartoons like Casper the Ghost, Scooby Doo, TV programs like Bewitched, rock music, masturbation, and various other secular extracurricular activities. So again at the age of 10 I had barely begun life and already I was screwed and going to hell for the 2nd time.
I had a fair amount of soul searching to do over the years, it wasn't until I was 16 and ended up dying for several minutes having an out of body experience that I started to draw my own conclusions. I won't go into the how I died part of the story, but suffice to say this was 1982 before any programs on the topic had come out, at least I hadn't heard or seen anything on the topic. I floated up into the ceiling and looked down on my body, I could see everyone below me and hear everything they were saying. The experience is as clear in my head today as it was the day it happened, I realized I didn't belong there yet, I had a choice, I could go up or back down into my body. I chose not to look up because I knew if I did I would go up, so I focused on getting back to my body.
From that I learned that there is nothing to fear in death and that it doesn't just end there. I also started to realize many people seek out religion or some spiritual faith so they can have control over the one moment they have no control over, death. The hard truth is no one has died long enough to go check out the other side and come back to explain it as fact. In other words everyone is guessing, the blind leading the blind. Accept for those who believe that God relayed his message in the hands of a man long since dead into scripture. So then it becomes a matter of belief and faith in that belief. Those that do have faith typically read their spiritual materials again and again and again, if you read something enough you will eventually believe it.
Lord knows I tried to get into these paths, my gut and my heart tell me he didn't leave a message in the hands of a man. I believe that all of mans endeavors to describe what God is severely deficient guess work. I believe God is self revealing in all the creation around us, communicating using metaphor example of how things are. I believe not one facet of humanity adequately describes God’s context, purpose, or plan.
Oh, lol, I thought no one saw my post so I deleted it By the way, Nekro, do you remember everything from your outer body experience? Could you please describe how did it feel?
It felt horrible. Fascinating though(I mean after it happened).
And I wasn't floating above of my body like Vegas. I felt like sinking into some miserable feeling and arms were wrapping around me, pulling me down...
LOL. Just kidding.
It was very similar to what Vegas said. I admit I got scared at first- I felt completely disconnected from my body. Then I relaxed and there was just a choice to make- move on or get back. I have no idea why I got back because I remembered it seemed just as easy to move on. Must have been on a whim I suppose. When I think I could have been enjoying a capuccino and free cookies with God, and playing the latest games right now instead of that endless wait for D3 and trying to earn a living while studying, I truly regret my decision.
Talk about being stupid.
Science, practiced correctly, is the epitome of skepticism. Religion is the epitome of faith.
I can't be religious because in my opinion the only intellectually honest position anyone can have about anything is skepticism. If you want to shun reason, that's fine, just realize the laughter soon follows.
Basically, I don't care if you believe that either Jesus or the Easter Bunny will save your eternal soul or just make you feel warm and fuzzy after a bad day, but keep it to yourself. The instant you want your fairy tales taught as reality in PUBLIC SCHOOLS, where my children will attend, I'll see you buried.
No, science is not perfect, it doesn't have all the answers (yet), but honest science admits this with pride. Religion does precisely the opposite. Beware of anyone telling you they have all the answers; they are indeed selling you something.
The Pentateuch is the 1st 5 books of the bible attributed to being written by Moses. Many theologists started noticing things that didn't make sense like Moses writing about his own funeral in the 3rd person in the past tense in the 2nd book. Or other things like Numbers 12:3 saying "Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on earth." One would not expect the most humble man on Earth to say hey and I'm the most humble man on earth! I agree it shouldn't matter but there are those who will debate the issue into the ground.
BTW I threw down some votes in your direction on your art, nicely done.
Thanks!
I see all of your points for sure and knowing who wrote the books is important. But to bring out that JW's still believe that he wrote it kinda sounded like they still believed the earth was flat like it was something absurd. When really, authorship is a pretty fuzzy thing.
For instance, the Book of Enoch is supposed to not be written by him based on the fact that there are continuity issues with the writing. Which I think happens to be the stupidest assessment to make. And also the most obvious. Enoch was one of the very first humans according to the bible, and whatever he wrote, if ever, was certainly written and rewritten a thousand times before our oldest copy(which happens to be from the caves of Qumran that we discovered in the...1940's?). It was also originally probably an oral story anyway. So Enoch was probably dead for a thousand years before his tale was ever even taken to paper...or bear skin or w/e they used.
@Don...The existence of a God is just as plausible as multiple universes. Also, I may be wrong but I feel a lot of you in this thread have a very constricting and simplistic view of God that could definitely use some different views.
Personally, I'm a deist. In my mind God would not be anything we can comprehend...Fuck...I was really trying to get around going into Anaxamander and Thalese philosophy. Oh well.
Thalese tried to figure out where the universe began. He tried to single out a point of origin based on the surroundings around him. What did he see? Water. Something that could take the shape of anything. Something that could actually change in form mysteriously(btw to give context Thales was an ancient philosopher). In fact, water was probably the only thing he ever saw change in state of matter. All life as he knew it was only sustained by water. So, he made the assessment that the original matter that created all life was water.
However, Anaximander a later philosopher, disagreed. Anax said that for the matter to be the thing that which started it all, it must have no opposite. In other words, if there was SOMETHING here before there was ANYTHING, that something must in effect be everything at once and have no opposite. It must not have an opposite because if it did, that would mean that there was something else. Meaning it could not possibly be the single point of origin. Everything we see and feel can only be described by opposites. We would have no idea what cold is without hot, for, it would always be cold and if there was no such thing as hot it would be indescribable what cold actually was without reference to hot. So he concluded that, the "God matter" must be completely indescribable without any definable shape or appearance.
Those little stories were used to describe my ideas on the subject. God would be a completely abstract concept literally out of the reach of logic in any way. An idea I like to play with is that if God was here before everything that he was in fact everything. Not even the space between atoms existed. There was nothing but "God". This concept gives the idea of no beginning much more plausibility in my mind anyway. So, if there was nothing else besides God, and God decided to create something, then those things are just pieces of god. So everything that "exists" today is actually everything that existed 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 years ago. Everything that existed those many eons ago were but one thing. One philosophical notion really puts science on the chopping block. Science is an analysis used by our senses. One philosophical thought says that we cannot trust our senses because we are perceiving difference when it does not exist.
If everything had an single point of origin, everything from that single point of origin without any opposite is still a part of that single origin. Meaning, there are no opposites and our senses cannot be trusted at all.
So with that idea in mind, I also like to play with the idea that we could all be one. One piece of existence only perceiving an illusion of any difference. So in effect, God in this instance would merely be everything and nothing at all, all at once. It's almost mor of a Buddhist philosophy.
So anyway...All that was to describe a different way to think about "God".
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I admit I got scared at first- I felt completely disconnected from my body. Then I relaxed and there was just a choice to make- move on or get back. I have no idea why I got back because I remembered it seemed just as easy to move on. Must have been on a whim I suppose.
Yup, that was exactly it, I still have pause for thought over what a split second decision it was and how easily I could have moved on.
@ Others, I'll have to post more later, work is looming for me now.
Don't you think you went way too damn overboard against the people who are religious but are NOT religious FANATICS, Kiserai? You are going to bury someone just because he actually believes in something and believes that something is historically true? Next thing you are gonna do is start killing people just because they believe in God and in so many other things?
It's because of people like you who have no tolerance for anything and are ready to kill someone just because they are different than the others that society is fucked up.
Well, it's a strong figure of speech but that's more or less all it is. Though if someone did go to that extreme, a very small part of me would wonder if they were just returning the favor. Yes they're fanatics, but religion is still to them what not only 'gives them the right' to kill non-believers, but actually demands that they do. Whether the Bible or whatever text actually says that doesn't actually matter, you see? If you want a person to do good, they don't need divine motivation. But if you want a person to do something as awful as, say, genital mutilation (the GM 'crowd' is essentially 100% faith-based)...well for that you need that person to believe God demands that they do so.
And no, it wasn't overboard at all. Do I dislike fanatics more than the average believer? Of course. But that doesn't mean the average believer is any less delusional, in my opinion.
Do I think someone of genuine faith to be stupid? No. Some are, sure, but not all.
To me religion is like drinking; if you keep it to yourself and don't take it to an extreme, what do I care? But if you need religion (or beer) to get through your daily life, I do think that's pretty sad--absolutely your choice, but still pretty sad.
What is GOOD without divine motivation? There is no such thing as good or bad without an ultimate qualifier. Without that, good and bad is nothing more than a figment of our imagination. Well, rather, just a concept that has no real application other than helping a species survive. Anything else is pointless. Without an ultimate standard, ethics are nothing more than social illusions.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
If the only reason you don't go out and rape and kill on a daily basis is that you might make God angry at you, you're a psychotic, horrible human being.
I do not believe in God. I never have. I've been staunchly atheistic for as long as I can remember, even as a very young child I did not believe.
I don't go out and kill and rape on a daily basis.
I just proved you don't need faith in God to be moral. I am moral (relatively speaking) without an ounce of 'divine motivation'.
You might say God 'programed' us to feel this way, but that negates the Christian idea of free will, doesn't it?
What a typical response. Did I say that God was what kept me from doing something bad? No. I merely pointed out the very relevant concept that without an ultimate standard, morals do not actually exist. And it would be impossible for me to be a horrible human being as you so eloquently put it. Nor did I ever say that morality does not exist in the minds of humans. What exists and does not exist can certainly be relative to every person. However, without a standard the existence of morality will never be anything more real than the creatures Blizz comes up with out of their heads. Morality without a standard is only as real as you want it to be. It's a standard that we created in order to live with each other more efficiently. People use the terms good and bad without really understand what they are implying in terms of social and religious context and how those 2 thing intertwine so intimately to give us our own ideals today on which just about everybody bases their lives around despite the fact that they might not even be religious at all.
But in any case, way to jump the gun there bud. Fanatical religious folks and full blown atheists have so much in common I swear...
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
How does the social construct of money work, then? There's no ultimate standard for value, which is why things like inflation can occur. Sure, every single penny is backed up by gold or something, right? That hasn't been true for a very long time.
It 'works' because 99% of people 'agree' that it works, and because we need it to for society to function, because I want my money to actually buy things and so do you.
Morality is more or less the same thing. There are a few universals found in most cultures (no murder, the incest taboo, etc.) but even these have been found to be fungible to a notable degree. No ultimate standard doesn't mean morality doesn't exist, it just means it exists within a context of relativity, which shouldn't be news to anyone witha perspective larger than their own personal experiences, if even that.
...Hhhmm..I see what you mean with the hot and cold thing. But, I think the example was used more to illustrate how we use language to understand what we see and feel. In the same way I think it's an reasonable assessment to logically follow that pattern of thought by Anaximander as I tried to describe(in a terrible way that would have definitely got me a failing grade in class haha).
I agree with rejecting that kind of skepticism. Some philosopher from thailand I believe had the famous concept from his experience as a butterfly in a dream. He said it was so real that he no longer knows if he truly exists in the dream world or the other. But I choose to think it's bs...It pretty much comes down to what you said. There's really no point in rejecting senses and honestly it's just not practical at all. We trust them because they help us survive. Likewise, it makes science very trustworthy as well.
Why exactly is "I think therefore I am" a false statement? Introspective research to self awareness can be a pretty powerful argument.
@Kiserai- All I have to say is go do some research on odd cultural ethics. Not murdering is DEFINITELY not a universal moral concept found in all cultures. In fact, cannibalism might be a more commonly accepted act than you might think.
If there is anything that was ever subjective, it's certainly morality!
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
@Don
Why exactly is "I think therefore I am" a false statement? Introspective research to self awareness can be a pretty powerful argument.
I am not a philosopher nor even a student of philosophy so forgive me for my crude description; it is an idea I read on, but I try to recite the idea as well as I can.
The Descartes' argument of "I think therefore I am" is flawed in the sense that your own thoughts are not the ultimate proof of your own existence. It was related to the (impractical) notion of doubting our senses. As you yourself said, it is a logically plausible idea that we all do not exist as separate entities, that we are just "sections" of the same, bigger entity, unaware of each other.
Definitely valid. I've heard that one more than once. Doesn't mean I like it though.
Since I choose to be practical, I choose to believe that self awareness is a pretty powerful thing. There's nothing like that incredible feeling of self awareness that happens after a few brief moments of introspective reflection. It's a fleeting feeling but it's so weird I can't help but agree with "I think therefore I am". But thats just my opinion of course.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Deism I can appreciate; and I find it a matter of taste whether we call the "origin of the Universe" God, or by any other name. It makes no difference whether we call it 'God', 'Big Bang' or 'Process through which the gravity of black hole rolls the space-time with infinite density and creates a new universe'.
This exactly. I was studying Baruch Spinoza on my Philosophy class the other day, and he demostrated that god exists by defining god as "That that exists". There you have an irrefutable argument for the existence of god. Of course, you can just rename "That that exists" as reality, or 10th dimension. So according to him, god is just reality, not some antropomorphic being that messes with human lives. It makes a lot of sense.
Weirdly presented thread/poll, really.
Science and religion do not exclude each other (see Einstein). Neither "religious" nor "scientific" are appropriate words to define a functioning method of a person.
Science is not an entity and therefore does not master or control anything, merely explains it. Science is also created by man (lol). Science is a collection of laws that have been described by humanity, nothing more, and science is quite faulty, explains very little, and while people try to hang on to it to answer all life's questions that's really not what science is for.
Science is also very weak when working with untestable results. And there's a lot more in the world than science is aware of, unfortunately. You can only go so far with it. When it comes to looking for the meaning of life, the universe, and everything, I find philosophy far superior.
The existence of a powerful creator entity would be part of the laws we're not aware of, and this entity would follow those laws just like we do. In fact, the main reason for this entity's power may simply be their superior knowledge of the laws that govern our reality. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Pretty much all oppositions against creators among scientists come back to the theory of evolution. Some poor guy invented a theory, and every materialist started frantically holding on to it because god forbid we were actually created by someone who we can't describe. :rolleyes:
Because there is no logical reason for the existence of "God" and the existence of "free will" to have any form of correlation.
This.
Free Will is a choice, God can't dictate your choices, and if it could, then why wouldn't it make us all act perfectly good and righteous? If it could dictate our choices, why wouldn't it make us all worship it?
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I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
No it won't. It most definitely won't. There are so many undiscovered things, and so many things that can't be discovered. After they discover what happened that caused the formation of the universe (and I mean, FULLY understand), they will come up with an explanation like "X caused Y to happen". What caused X to happen? Z? What caused Z to happen? A? What caused A to happen? So on so forth. You can't keep going back with science..it has its limitations. There is no evidence to how the universe got created. I might be wrong, but I'm absolutely sure they don't know where the "starting materials" of our current day universe originated from. And what they originated from originated from. I hope you grasp this, since your entire concept of things is absolutely absurd.
Actually, your perceptions on science is like Miss Teen USA lecturing a brain surgeon on neuron mechanics. Just because science does not have the answer right now, does not mean it will not HAVE the answer. Example, the internet. The tool you take for granted. The idea of fusing every single computer in the world to create a world network seemed impossible, yet it was done. Flying seemed impossible, yet it has been done. Saying that all the unknowns in science are God's work not only make you look foolish, it makes you look like a coward.
Science has no limitations, and people have been reminded of that every day. I don't think you realize how fast science is moving right now, maybe even too fast. Universities like Harvard, MIT, Yale, etc are all working day and night trying to make your life better, and to figure out all the answers you have. Let me remind you that 10 years ago, wireless internet was a dream, and now, we have wireless internet on planes.
Science, again, is NOT a religion. Religion deals with magic, fantasy, Gods, etc. Science deals with proofs, and you cannot deny that.
Lol@what a failure your first line is. It doesn't make any sense. Guess science didn't teach you grammar. LOL.
Did you even understand a word that I said? There is absolutely no way that science, unless given 2 billion years, could unravel the VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY beginnings of the universe. They're having a fucking tough time cracking the very first piece of the puzzle. They cracked puzzle 1. They still have about 20 million to go in that subject ALONE. Yeah, they found out that the universe came to existance due to the big bang. What banged? How did the thing that banged come to exist? How did the thing that spewed the thing that banged come to exist? How did the thing before that, and the thing before that, and the thing before that, and the thing before that...etc. come to exist? If you really think Science can unravel that, you're fucking crazy. No joke. You need mental help. Even if (and that's one..HUUUUUUUUUGE motherfucking if) reached the very first beginning, they will in no way be able to track even further back, they will just have to accept the fact that God created the very first thing.
Religion deals with magic? Sorry, I must have missed the verse in the Quran that said "Thou shalt believeth Harry Houdini and make sacred Chris Angel, or I shall smite thee and send you to be torn apart by their stage assistants in the deepest pits of hell". Sorry, man, I must have gotten the abridged version of the Quran, along side the other 1 billion or so Muslims. Call CNN, expose the truth THIS VERY SECOND!
Religion deals with fantasy? Sorry, I must have missed the verse in the Quran that said "Thou shalt believeth that Diablo, Mephisto, Baal, Duriel, Andariel, and The Butcher all exist 200 miles south of Imagination Land. Do not tred the path of sin, or Diablo shall make it rain fire upon your village. Oh, and Pikachu will electrocute your ass". Sorry, man, I must have gotten the abridged version of the Quran, along side the other 1 billion or so Muslims. Call Fox News, expose the truth THIS VERY SECOND!
How in fuck's name does science always rely on facts? They have tons of theories, one of which that there are copies of us and everything around us somewhere else in the universe, or better yet, we might be THEIR copies. Do they have proof of that? Have you met Mephisto's Lamentousino V 2.0 down in Texas after he crash landed when he was out to get some tacos from Taco Bell's branch on Earthinium 2.0? Give me a fucking break.
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Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions
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I swear...this looked the trailer of some cheesy horror movie.
In our modern world, it's natural for people to look for some tangible scientific facts to understand religion but when these facts are used to justify religious views it becomes just sad. It happened in the gay marriage thread and it will certainly happen here.
And trying to justify a religious notion/view by scientific findings is nowhere near the concept of understanding/gaining true knowledge as it is of arrogance, close-mindedness and condescension.
But in all seriousness, we are making a deal of it because we are debating Science vs. Religion. So, if we follow logic and common sense, a frequent argument made by Christians can be discussed in this thread -,-
Edit: That video made me want to stab myself.
At the age of 6 I took a flashlight outside my mom told me not too, when I got caught because it was missing she made me put my hand on a huge 3x3 feet (.9x.9 meter) table bible and swear I didn't disobey her, fearing a spanking more than the book I lied. She then told me I lied on the bible and that I was going to hell. So at the ripe age of 6 I was fucked LMAO! I gave that bible 6 foot clearance every time I went into the living room where it laid for a few years. I thought it would flip open and suck me in or something.
Then 4 years later my dad noticed during one of my 2 week visits up to his place I was into secular rock music and feared for my spiritual safety. That lead to me and my sisters being forcibly immersed into an 8 hour session of educational tapes by a washed up musician converted Christian named Craig Harrington (34 years later I still remember his name) who in a nutshell said that following would send me to hell: Cartoons like Casper the Ghost, Scooby Doo, TV programs like Bewitched, rock music, masturbation, and various other secular extracurricular activities. So again at the age of 10 I had barely begun life and already I was screwed and going to hell for the 2nd time.
I had a fair amount of soul searching to do over the years, it wasn't until I was 16 and ended up dying for several minutes having an out of body experience that I started to draw my own conclusions. I won't go into the how I died part of the story, but suffice to say this was 1982 before any programs on the topic had come out, at least I hadn't heard or seen anything on the topic. I floated up into the ceiling and looked down on my body, I could see everyone below me and hear everything they were saying. The experience is as clear in my head today as it was the day it happened, I realized I didn't belong there yet, I had a choice, I could go up or back down into my body. I chose not to look up because I knew if I did I would go up, so I focused on getting back to my body.
From that I learned that there is nothing to fear in death and that it doesn't just end there. I also started to realize many people seek out religion or some spiritual faith so they can have control over the one moment they have no control over, death. The hard truth is no one has died long enough to go check out the other side and come back to explain it as fact. In other words everyone is guessing, the blind leading the blind. Accept for those who believe that God relayed his message in the hands of a man long since dead into scripture. So then it becomes a matter of belief and faith in that belief. Those that do have faith typically read their spiritual materials again and again and again, if you read something enough you will eventually believe it.
Lord knows I tried to get into these paths, my gut and my heart tell me he didn't leave a message in the hands of a man. I believe that all of mans endeavors to describe what God is severely deficient guess work. I believe God is self revealing in all the creation around us, communicating using metaphor example of how things are. I believe not one facet of humanity adequately describes God’s context, purpose, or plan.
I hope that can be useful to others.
Also, YOU ARE GOING TO HELL!!!
Lol I know it must not have been funny at the time it happened but still....
Hey Akuma, I just read your post. Man, that was some freaky stuff.
Ya we should definitely make a thread on spooky experiences.
It felt horrible. Fascinating though(I mean after it happened).
And I wasn't floating above of my body like Vegas. I felt like sinking into some miserable feeling and arms were wrapping around me, pulling me down...
LOL. Just kidding.
It was very similar to what Vegas said. I admit I got scared at first- I felt completely disconnected from my body. Then I relaxed and there was just a choice to make- move on or get back. I have no idea why I got back because I remembered it seemed just as easy to move on. Must have been on a whim I suppose. When I think I could have been enjoying a capuccino and free cookies with God, and playing the latest games right now instead of that endless wait for D3 and trying to earn a living while studying, I truly regret my decision.
Talk about being stupid.
I can't be religious because in my opinion the only intellectually honest position anyone can have about anything is skepticism. If you want to shun reason, that's fine, just realize the laughter soon follows.
Basically, I don't care if you believe that either Jesus or the Easter Bunny will save your eternal soul or just make you feel warm and fuzzy after a bad day, but keep it to yourself. The instant you want your fairy tales taught as reality in PUBLIC SCHOOLS, where my children will attend, I'll see you buried.
No, science is not perfect, it doesn't have all the answers (yet), but honest science admits this with pride. Religion does precisely the opposite. Beware of anyone telling you they have all the answers; they are indeed selling you something.
Thanks!
I see all of your points for sure and knowing who wrote the books is important. But to bring out that JW's still believe that he wrote it kinda sounded like they still believed the earth was flat like it was something absurd. When really, authorship is a pretty fuzzy thing.
For instance, the Book of Enoch is supposed to not be written by him based on the fact that there are continuity issues with the writing. Which I think happens to be the stupidest assessment to make. And also the most obvious. Enoch was one of the very first humans according to the bible, and whatever he wrote, if ever, was certainly written and rewritten a thousand times before our oldest copy(which happens to be from the caves of Qumran that we discovered in the...1940's?). It was also originally probably an oral story anyway. So Enoch was probably dead for a thousand years before his tale was ever even taken to paper...or bear skin or w/e they used.
@Don...The existence of a God is just as plausible as multiple universes. Also, I may be wrong but I feel a lot of you in this thread have a very constricting and simplistic view of God that could definitely use some different views.
Personally, I'm a deist. In my mind God would not be anything we can comprehend...Fuck...I was really trying to get around going into Anaxamander and Thalese philosophy. Oh well.
Thalese tried to figure out where the universe began. He tried to single out a point of origin based on the surroundings around him. What did he see? Water. Something that could take the shape of anything. Something that could actually change in form mysteriously(btw to give context Thales was an ancient philosopher). In fact, water was probably the only thing he ever saw change in state of matter. All life as he knew it was only sustained by water. So, he made the assessment that the original matter that created all life was water.
However, Anaximander a later philosopher, disagreed. Anax said that for the matter to be the thing that which started it all, it must have no opposite. In other words, if there was SOMETHING here before there was ANYTHING, that something must in effect be everything at once and have no opposite. It must not have an opposite because if it did, that would mean that there was something else. Meaning it could not possibly be the single point of origin. Everything we see and feel can only be described by opposites. We would have no idea what cold is without hot, for, it would always be cold and if there was no such thing as hot it would be indescribable what cold actually was without reference to hot. So he concluded that, the "God matter" must be completely indescribable without any definable shape or appearance.
Those little stories were used to describe my ideas on the subject. God would be a completely abstract concept literally out of the reach of logic in any way. An idea I like to play with is that if God was here before everything that he was in fact everything. Not even the space between atoms existed. There was nothing but "God". This concept gives the idea of no beginning much more plausibility in my mind anyway. So, if there was nothing else besides God, and God decided to create something, then those things are just pieces of god. So everything that "exists" today is actually everything that existed 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 years ago. Everything that existed those many eons ago were but one thing. One philosophical notion really puts science on the chopping block. Science is an analysis used by our senses. One philosophical thought says that we cannot trust our senses because we are perceiving difference when it does not exist.
If everything had an single point of origin, everything from that single point of origin without any opposite is still a part of that single origin. Meaning, there are no opposites and our senses cannot be trusted at all.
So with that idea in mind, I also like to play with the idea that we could all be one. One piece of existence only perceiving an illusion of any difference. So in effect, God in this instance would merely be everything and nothing at all, all at once. It's almost mor of a Buddhist philosophy.
So anyway...All that was to describe a different way to think about "God".
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Yup, that was exactly it, I still have pause for thought over what a split second decision it was and how easily I could have moved on.
@ Others, I'll have to post more later, work is looming for me now.
Well, it's a strong figure of speech but that's more or less all it is. Though if someone did go to that extreme, a very small part of me would wonder if they were just returning the favor. Yes they're fanatics, but religion is still to them what not only 'gives them the right' to kill non-believers, but actually demands that they do. Whether the Bible or whatever text actually says that doesn't actually matter, you see? If you want a person to do good, they don't need divine motivation. But if you want a person to do something as awful as, say, genital mutilation (the GM 'crowd' is essentially 100% faith-based)...well for that you need that person to believe God demands that they do so.
And no, it wasn't overboard at all. Do I dislike fanatics more than the average believer? Of course. But that doesn't mean the average believer is any less delusional, in my opinion.
Do I think someone of genuine faith to be stupid? No. Some are, sure, but not all.
To me religion is like drinking; if you keep it to yourself and don't take it to an extreme, what do I care? But if you need religion (or beer) to get through your daily life, I do think that's pretty sad--absolutely your choice, but still pretty sad.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I do not believe in God. I never have. I've been staunchly atheistic for as long as I can remember, even as a very young child I did not believe.
I don't go out and kill and rape on a daily basis.
I just proved you don't need faith in God to be moral. I am moral (relatively speaking) without an ounce of 'divine motivation'.
You might say God 'programed' us to feel this way, but that negates the Christian idea of free will, doesn't it?
What a typical response. Did I say that God was what kept me from doing something bad? No. I merely pointed out the very relevant concept that without an ultimate standard, morals do not actually exist. And it would be impossible for me to be a horrible human being as you so eloquently put it. Nor did I ever say that morality does not exist in the minds of humans. What exists and does not exist can certainly be relative to every person. However, without a standard the existence of morality will never be anything more real than the creatures Blizz comes up with out of their heads. Morality without a standard is only as real as you want it to be. It's a standard that we created in order to live with each other more efficiently. People use the terms good and bad without really understand what they are implying in terms of social and religious context and how those 2 thing intertwine so intimately to give us our own ideals today on which just about everybody bases their lives around despite the fact that they might not even be religious at all.
But in any case, way to jump the gun there bud. Fanatical religious folks and full blown atheists have so much in common I swear...
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
How does the social construct of money work, then? There's no ultimate standard for value, which is why things like inflation can occur. Sure, every single penny is backed up by gold or something, right? That hasn't been true for a very long time.
It 'works' because 99% of people 'agree' that it works, and because we need it to for society to function, because I want my money to actually buy things and so do you.
Morality is more or less the same thing. There are a few universals found in most cultures (no murder, the incest taboo, etc.) but even these have been found to be fungible to a notable degree. No ultimate standard doesn't mean morality doesn't exist, it just means it exists within a context of relativity, which shouldn't be news to anyone witha perspective larger than their own personal experiences, if even that.
...Hhhmm..I see what you mean with the hot and cold thing. But, I think the example was used more to illustrate how we use language to understand what we see and feel. In the same way I think it's an reasonable assessment to logically follow that pattern of thought by Anaximander as I tried to describe(in a terrible way that would have definitely got me a failing grade in class haha).
I agree with rejecting that kind of skepticism. Some philosopher from thailand I believe had the famous concept from his experience as a butterfly in a dream. He said it was so real that he no longer knows if he truly exists in the dream world or the other. But I choose to think it's bs...It pretty much comes down to what you said. There's really no point in rejecting senses and honestly it's just not practical at all. We trust them because they help us survive. Likewise, it makes science very trustworthy as well.
Why exactly is "I think therefore I am" a false statement? Introspective research to self awareness can be a pretty powerful argument.
@Kiserai- All I have to say is go do some research on odd cultural ethics. Not murdering is DEFINITELY not a universal moral concept found in all cultures. In fact, cannibalism might be a more commonly accepted act than you might think.
If there is anything that was ever subjective, it's certainly morality!
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Definitely valid. I've heard that one more than once. Doesn't mean I like it though.
Since I choose to be practical, I choose to believe that self awareness is a pretty powerful thing. There's nothing like that incredible feeling of self awareness that happens after a few brief moments of introspective reflection. It's a fleeting feeling but it's so weird I can't help but agree with "I think therefore I am". But thats just my opinion of course.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
This exactly. I was studying Baruch Spinoza on my Philosophy class the other day, and he demostrated that god exists by defining god as "That that exists". There you have an irrefutable argument for the existence of god. Of course, you can just rename "That that exists" as reality, or 10th dimension. So according to him, god is just reality, not some antropomorphic being that messes with human lives. It makes a lot of sense.
Science and religion do not exclude each other (see Einstein). Neither "religious" nor "scientific" are appropriate words to define a functioning method of a person.
Science is not an entity and therefore does not master or control anything, merely explains it. Science is also created by man (lol). Science is a collection of laws that have been described by humanity, nothing more, and science is quite faulty, explains very little, and while people try to hang on to it to answer all life's questions that's really not what science is for.
Science is also very weak when working with untestable results. And there's a lot more in the world than science is aware of, unfortunately. You can only go so far with it. When it comes to looking for the meaning of life, the universe, and everything, I find philosophy far superior.
The existence of a powerful creator entity would be part of the laws we're not aware of, and this entity would follow those laws just like we do. In fact, the main reason for this entity's power may simply be their superior knowledge of the laws that govern our reality. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Pretty much all oppositions against creators among scientists come back to the theory of evolution. Some poor guy invented a theory, and every materialist started frantically holding on to it because god forbid we were actually created by someone who we can't describe. :rolleyes:
evolution is a theory for speciation, not creation.
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
This.
Free Will is a choice, God can't dictate your choices, and if it could, then why wouldn't it make us all act perfectly good and righteous? If it could dictate our choices, why wouldn't it make us all worship it?
I hate the way you cling to ignorance and pass it off as innocence
Lol@what a failure your first line is. It doesn't make any sense. Guess science didn't teach you grammar. LOL.
Did you even understand a word that I said? There is absolutely no way that science, unless given 2 billion years, could unravel the VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY beginnings of the universe. They're having a fucking tough time cracking the very first piece of the puzzle. They cracked puzzle 1. They still have about 20 million to go in that subject ALONE. Yeah, they found out that the universe came to existance due to the big bang. What banged? How did the thing that banged come to exist? How did the thing that spewed the thing that banged come to exist? How did the thing before that, and the thing before that, and the thing before that, and the thing before that...etc. come to exist? If you really think Science can unravel that, you're fucking crazy. No joke. You need mental help. Even if (and that's one..HUUUUUUUUUGE motherfucking if) reached the very first beginning, they will in no way be able to track even further back, they will just have to accept the fact that God created the very first thing.
Religion deals with magic? Sorry, I must have missed the verse in the Quran that said "Thou shalt believeth Harry Houdini and make sacred Chris Angel, or I shall smite thee and send you to be torn apart by their stage assistants in the deepest pits of hell". Sorry, man, I must have gotten the abridged version of the Quran, along side the other 1 billion or so Muslims. Call CNN, expose the truth THIS VERY SECOND!
Religion deals with fantasy? Sorry, I must have missed the verse in the Quran that said "Thou shalt believeth that Diablo, Mephisto, Baal, Duriel, Andariel, and The Butcher all exist 200 miles south of Imagination Land. Do not tred the path of sin, or Diablo shall make it rain fire upon your village. Oh, and Pikachu will electrocute your ass". Sorry, man, I must have gotten the abridged version of the Quran, along side the other 1 billion or so Muslims. Call Fox News, expose the truth THIS VERY SECOND!
How in fuck's name does science always rely on facts? They have tons of theories, one of which that there are copies of us and everything around us somewhere else in the universe, or better yet, we might be THEIR copies. Do they have proof of that? Have you met Mephisto's Lamentousino V 2.0 down in Texas after he crash landed when he was out to get some tacos from Taco Bell's branch on Earthinium 2.0? Give me a fucking break.
Rise and rise again, until lambs become lions