Edit: I'm taking Nektu's stance on your guys whole conversation.
The best post of this whole thread lol...
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I do not believe in the whole "fallible/infallible" thing because I believe everyone and everything is fallible and the word infallible exists to describe something we cannot achieve... but, if I were to take your stance:
- assume god is infallible. Well, I have way too many issues with this. For one, man was created in his image, apparently. Man is very fallible. So that means god is also. Secondly, if god is infallible, why was he unable to create a perfect human being? Why do humans have all this baggage? Why do humans feel anger and hate and lust, things that have been labeled as bad by Christians?
If god is infallible, than humans are exactly as he intended them to be. Being his creations, they'd also be infallible. They'd be perfect the way they are, in all their good, in all their evil, because an infallible creator can create precisely what he wants, and an infallible creator will have absolute understanding of what he has done, of what humans do, why they do it, etc.
Yes, the book of Genesis states that men was created in God's image. But what the interpretation is His image of how He sees us. Not to be exactly like Him. But after the fall, that's when things went down hill for humanity. I think Adam and Eve would have stayed in the garden along with humanity if they had obeyed the one thing God told them not to do. Which they didn't. They had chosen to disobey because the serpent made it look so appealing. Here is where I say free will entered in or what you like to say:
Free will is a part of reality. Just as everything else.
We feel anger, hate and lust because it is human nature and yes it was created in us. Kind of like our own attributes. But it's how we act on them.
No, comparing a creator to a creator. It's the only comparison I can possibly make. I can't compare the infallible to something else because that's illogical. If I can't compare it, I can't discuss it, and neither can you.
Maybe to you. But, we won't if you don't want to. Fair enough?
If you bring something in a discussion, it will be scrutinized and clarification may be requested. If you do not wish to clarify what you've said, do not bring it into the discussion.
Alright. That's very fair, my apologies. According to the Bible I'm an adulterer, a sexual immoral person(not in a homosexual way), I've been a liar, a God slanderer, I've taking God's name in vain, I've come just short of murder by nearly strangling someone to death, I've not honored my father and mother, I've put other gods before God, I've stolen, I've been a false witness. And by those standards, I deserve to be judged by God.
I don't know what you were talking about but I was talking about god's attitude towards people.
So was I. God's attitude towards humans is unconditional love, hence the sending of His Son Jesus to die for humanity. What other way to show it but by sending His only Son to die on a cross for the sins of the world.
God is the cause of humans. Thus, everything a human ever does has been caused by god. God should have predicted, as all other things, that human nature would turn away from him in certain forums. So basically god decided that "x amount of humans will turn away from me and I'll punish those". Makes no sense. No, it's not our fault. Our ability to turn from the creator is something he put into us, somehow. It's called wanting freedom.
You call it freedom, I call it free will. To have the knowledge that He may or may not be there, and then acting upon it. But who is to say who is going to turn away from Him or believe in Him. You? Me? Doubt it.
I don't think we know what god wanted passed along or written down.
You and I don't. I agree. But it doesn't mean that it couldn't have happened.
As I've stated in that quote I was not talking about specific women. I was talking about how the words used had a patriarchal hint about them.
Where? I think I know what you're talking about but want to be sure and check that out and not talk out of my ass.
God said love and understanding. Christianity said hate and judgment. All I see from religious people is how they judge everyone, think everyone should be punished, everyone deserves this, deserves that, gays should die, etc. The amount of Christians that are TRUE Christians, the ones that love their fellow human, is so low that it's not even significant. I say yet again: it didn't take!
That doesn't mean it didn't take. True, I think Christians get it wrong a lot. There is more judgment than love. I think it also boils down to what is being taught in Churches by preachers. But I think they also miss the mark by not double checking and reading the Bible on their own and thus just taking a persons opinion and thinking that's it, the end. It also comes from not living it and just listening to it.
Because...
"A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider to be God-fearing and pious." - Aristotle
I'm not following what this has to do with the discussion. But you've peaked my curiosity.
"Religion is the opium of the masses." - Karl Marx
Wasn't Russia one of the countries that persecuted Christians until the fall of the wall? I remember that Bibles were not allowed into the country and missionaries had to go about things secretly. Much like in China today, where the only recognized church is the government run one. Where Christians are still being put into jail and beaten. Which is interesting, since the underground Church in China is the fastest growing Christian Church in the world.
I disproved all sorts of faiths don't generalize please. If I lived in the Middle East I'd never shut up about Islam. There's a lot more Christians here so that's what I oppose.
I was generalizing because this is a religion thread, yet Christianity is the only one being discussed. It has nothing to do with the amount of Christians here.
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Somebody better comment on my long ass post. O.oBtw I created 2 of the threads that this thread is associated with as "similar threads" woot.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I do not believe in the whole "fallible/infallible" thing because I believe everyone and everything is fallible and the word infallible exists to describe something we cannot achieve... but, if I were to take your stance:
- assume god is infallible. Well, I have way too many issues with this. For one, man was created in his image, apparently. Man is very fallible. So that means god is also. Secondly, if god is infallible, why was he unable to create a perfect human being? Why do humans have all this baggage? Why do humans feel anger and hate and lust, things that have been labeled as bad by Christians?
If god is infallible, than humans are exactly as he intended them to be. Being his creations, they'd also be infallible. They'd be perfect the way they are, in all their good, in all their evil, because an infallible creator can create precisely what he wants, and an infallible creator will have absolute understanding of what he has done, of what humans do, why they do it, etc.
Just because something is created in something's image does not mean every aspect is carried over... That arguement is ridiculous and you know it. If it was meant that then God would have just created himself. He created us in his image to have qualities as him such as the characteristic of love. Free will is also something God gave man which is where we have a choice to betray him (sin) or not. The bible, God's word, already said we arent perfect. Why do you think Jesus died for everyone?
Disproving destiny is easy btw. Let's see... Ok, if I am on top of a mountain looking down at the curvy road, winding back and fourth up the mountain to where I am and I see a car going down the mountain and one coming up the mountain and one of them is flying like a madman in the opposing lane (the wrong lane that he shouldnt be in) and it's apparent that neither of them cannot see each other and they are approaching each other rapidly then just because I know the outcome of a situation doesnt mean I directly affected their choices to lead to that outcome. In theory, cause I never really knew the outcome till I saw them crash, but just so you see the point.
Quote from "Equinox" »
Free will is a part of reality. Just as everything else.
Agreed.
Quote from "Equinox" »
No, comparing a creator to a creator. It's the only comparison I can possibly make. I can't compare the infallible to something else because that's illogical. If I can't compare it, I can't discuss it, and neither can you.
You can't compare the infallible to the fallible, that's just how it is. Comparing God to a human is foolish.
Quote from "Equinox" »
If you bring something in a discussion, it will be scrutinized and clarification may be requested. If you do not wish to clarify what you've said, do not bring it into the discussion.
Agreed to a certain extent. But what he was talking about should be assumed personal, and after what he remarked you should understand that and not be such jerk about it.
Quote from "Equinox" »
God is the cause of humans. Thus, everything a human ever does has been caused by god. God should have predicted, as all other things, that human nature would turn away from him in certain forums. So basically god decided that "x amount of humans will turn away from me and I'll punish those". Makes no sense. No, it's not our fault. Our ability to turn from the creator is something he put into us, somehow. It's called wanting freedom.
Ok wow, where to begin...
Free will gives us the CHOICE. So, anything we do is not caused by God, but our own reasoning. You contradict yourself, God didn't put any thoughts into us about turning from him or turning towards him. He wants us to love him and follow his word but it is our CHOICE. God does know who will go to heaven and hell. But, if God just went straight to judgement based on the lives he knew we would have lived (based on OUR choices) then why would he have even created the "bad people" (people going to hell) in the first place? You are also using the thing you are trying to disprove to prove your statements. You said "Our ability to turn from the creator is something he put into us, somehow. It's called wanting freedom." Do I even need to comment on that? I will anyways, you said that God put an urge in us, but you are trying to disprove God.
Quote from "Equinox" »
God said love and understanding. Christianity said hate and judgement. All I see from religious people is how they judge everyone, think everyone should be punished, everyone deserves this, deserves that, gays should die, etc. The amount of Christians that are TRUE Christians, the ones that love their fellow human, is so low that it's not even significant. I say yet again: it didn't take!
If Christianity is based on what God said then I think it would have to say what God had to say, not the total opposite. Maybe your being a little judgemental in your views of christians.
EDIT: In the very first quote, that I quoted you saying you were saying that God is fallible because his creation is fallible. Actually, we were created pure and clean (in a sense infallible). Sin came into existence because Adam and Eve used their free will to decide to go against God's will, thus they were created without sin, pure, clean (infallible) but they made the decision to be faillble (sin). All humans are fallible, or, in other terms, not perfect as their creator (creator [God] being perfect) but they can get back on track because of Jesus going to the cross. So, the point is though, man is fallible because of man's own decisions, not because of God. Not because their creator is supposedly fallible (which is not true) but because man is to lustful and greedy at some point in their life because of free will.
I printed it out to take home with me. About to leave work here in a few. I'll post something on it before the end of the weekend.
I am flattered bud.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Actually, Paul chose a life of celibacy. He explains that in a letter he wrote to a different Church.
Yes and so did the men who swore celibacy and to priesthood and turned out to be pedophiles. If I were to take the farce further, it can always be said Paul swore celibacy because he got turned down by a lesbian.
But I guess that's something plain offensive to many of my christian friends, so I do apologize.
But it was just to prove a point that celibacy means nothing.
How can a person claim to be redeemed of sin if they are still living a life of sexual immorality, which the Bible calls sin?
I do not quite understand this point. Are you saying that being a homosexual is a sin. I know now that according to the bible it is. But tell me what you think- bible aside?
Because with the bible regarding homosexuality as a sin, it becomes a religion exclusive to heterosexuals.
This falls under free will. Not a will that was created in us. I'll get into that a bit down below.
I really don't believe that the point I mentioned falls under free will.
A person does not choose the colour of his skin nor the colour of his eyes. He is born with it.
Just as a homosexual or a straight guy is born one.
Let's put science and genes aside.
If homosexuality was a choice- which sensible person would make such a choice?
With the amount of discrimination, hate and prejudice against them, nobody reasonable would do so.
And it would be quite preposterous to say all homosexuals are unreasonable people. If it were the case, homosexuals would be a very small population...a bit like psychopaths and not in the amount they are today.
I take a strong/aggressive stance against such discrimination because one of my best friends is a lesbian. She has 2 different jobs to be able to make ends meet as she looks alone after her small brother. On her free days, she still finds time to visit the orphanage and home for the elderly. I find her to be a wonderful person and I just can't bear with shit that people come up to her her just because she's gay. As long as they don't know, she's the best person in the world, but as soon as they know- it's like real shit!
But if it is rewritten, would it then cease to be the Word of God? Yes.
It has always been the word of man. Sorry about that but the book was written by man. Jesus did not dictate each word while the people wrote.
I personally believe Jesus was an awesome guy. It is more from a feeling that actually reading anything about him(though reading did contribute).
I don't think he was God, he was a man- a simple one which makes him so much more incredible for what he did. I believe he fully deserves the praise and respect he gets.
Anyway my take on religionS
I turn my head to one side and I see some christians hating/condemning homosexuals in the name of God.
I turn to the other side and I see some muslims blowing themselves up in the name of Allah, killing people while shouting the name of God.
And then there are hindus burning mosques and muslims burning temples as revenge against each other...all in the name of God.
However to me none of them is taking God's name. They are simply resting on religions' cushions.
Religion to the weak-minded = fanatics
Religion to the wicked = more power as they control fanatics.
Religion has become the poison of our society. Despite it all, i do not view religion as bad. It is just a tool which in the wrong hands can become dangerous. You can use a knife to cut your vegetables. You can use the same knife to kill a person.
Religion according to me is good. I'll explain how.
A man just broke his leg, which now is in a cast. He needs a crutch to get around.
And that crutch is religion in my eyes.
The man's leg will heal eventually at a point when he will no longer need the crutch.
He can now walk freely. He can now run.
Alas many people become attached to the crutch and are reluctant to leave it. To a healthy man walking constantly with a crutch, that crutch becomes eventually his handicap.
My point is that religion as a foundation can help you form your ideals, morals and philosophies in life. But at some point, you have to realize and open your ideas and start to run- as a free man.
It's not a choice. Celibacy could be a choice but you can't choose what your attracted to. I don't choose to like girls. I just do. If it was a choice I could choose to be gay, but believe me folks I could never let the ladies down like that. =^.^=
Those people should not be eternally punished for being attracted to the same sex. And if they are, then at least do them enough justice to be honest about what they are being punished for. They are being punished for being gay, not choosing to be gay.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Homosexuality is a sin according to the bible, so fi you are asking a christian why they think it is wrong (bible aside) then you sir are stupid.
You can't compare the skin color you are born with, with free will. One is a variable you have no control over (skin color) and the other is, well, free will. Duh, do I even need to explain that? Free will is your choice of how you will live your life, not controlling the uncontrolable.
Just because it was writtien by man does not mean it wasn't inspired by God. Thus if it was inspired of God it had his seal and approval.
There is no way to disprove God completely. So, that being true, you cannot disprove the ideas behind everything I just talked about, FROM A CHRISTIAN STANDPOINT.
You have mixed way to many FALSE religions with true christianity, which doesnt involve blowing yourself up, faith healing, and so on, ideas not found in God's word.
Christians aren't any more judgemental than anyone else, of even judgemental at all. We all have opinions, so do christians. So you calling religious people "weak" isn't being judgemental?
Homosexuality is a sin according to the bible, so fi you are asking a christian why they think it is wrong (bible aside) then you sir are stupid.
I am glad I am stupid. At least I need not discriminate people based on their sexuality.
And something fascinating- while you bumped yourself in a question not addressed to you, you seem hesitant to say whether you regard homosexuality as a sin. You are very careful with your wording I see.
In any case my poor sir, being a christian shouldn't prevent someone from using their brain. Which explains my analogy of religion as a crutch. Whereby you still depend so much on religion that the whole world becomes altered to your eyes.
The bible was written ages ago. You live in the present my friend and which is the reason why I asked Nektu the question. I hope what I wrote was not too stupid for you to understand.
You can't compare the skin color you are born with, with free will. One is a variable you have no control over (skin color) and the other is, well, free will. Duh, do I even need to explain that? Free will is your choice of how you will live your life, not controlling the uncontrolable.
You missed my point...completely.
I was talking about homosexuality as a choice and how it is NOT so.
No need to explain free will to me. I understand it much better than you , i assure you.
Just because it was writtien by man does not mean it wasn't inspired by God. Thus if it was inspired of God it had his seal and approval.
Men does not equal God. They could have been inspired just as much as they couldn't have been. Mute point. you cannot prove either. The only thing you can is- that the writing was done by men.
There is no way to disprove God completely. So, that being true, you cannot disprove the ideas behind everything I just talked about, FROM A CHRISTIAN STANDPOINT
.
I believe in God. Period.
You have mixed way to many FALSE religions with true christianity, which doesnt involve blowing yourself up, faith healing, and so on, ideas not found in God's word.
False religions???? Poor Muslims and hindus...
I wrote something in the previous post:
Religion to the weak-minded = fanatics
I truly regret saying this but you just confirmed what i previously said.
Christians aren't any more judgemental than anyone else, of even judgemental at all. We all have opinions, so do christians. So you calling religious people "weak" isn't being judgemental?
I will reveal something extraordinary to you- WE ALL JUDGE.
We judge a person's behaviour or way of life and to us, this person is XXXXX according to how we saw him act.
BUT if you are judging someone on the color of their skin, their ethnicity or anything that they cannot change, you just confirm just how much of an ignorant human you are. Simple as that.
Nekro, Umpa, I promise to get back to both of you sometime today or Monday respectively. I just woke up and have some running around to do. But I will respond soon.
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My stance on homosexuality is a bit more simple than that.
I don't see anything wrong with it. It doesn't hurt anybody, it does not predict anything outside of social attitude, it helps overpopulation, and it shows the variety of human nature.
I mean, pedophilia is bad and one who has it must be helped in order to ensure they don't act on it. But homosexuality? What did it ever do to you?
I could say heterosexuality is worse because it leads to rape since men cannot control their lust. But everyone forgets that part and just says homosexuals are automatically pedophiles (see BSA not wanting to accept homosexual leaders despite their bad record of child abuse even though they only accept heterosexuals).
On the other hand, homophobia is possibly sort of a natural phenomenon. So it's easy for me to see how some homophobic human decided to add that bit into the holy books to make gays look bad. I know too many totally non-religious people who hate gays just because they don't fit into their macho man profile.
As for me, IDIC, to those who know what that means. I find homosexuals and others fascinating. They have created relationships and families so different from those of heterosexuals, often much less biased (2 people sharing not one man controlling the house with a female housewife). Seriously, I'm a better Christian than most of you Christians put together. You do not value this world or the people in it, all you ever think about is how everyone is sinful and should be punished (including you, you can't even value YOURSELF, see Nektu's list of all the bad things he done, what kind of a destructive philosophy is this?). All I ever think about is to understand all humans in the world and why they act the way they do and not hold it against them, as the result of the original design. And I'm a satanist.
The world is truly upside down.
Your arguemnts are retarded. And thanks for just skipping over my comments to earlier things you said, can't handle the pressure?
Quote from "Equinox" »
My stance on homosexuality is a bit more simple than that.
I don't see anything wrong with it. It doesn't hurt anybody, it does not predict anything outside of social attitude, it helps overpopulation, and it shows the variety of human nature.
I mean, pedophilia is bad and one who has it must be helped in order to ensure they don't act on it. But homosexuality? What did it ever do to you?
I could say heterosexuality is worse because it leads to rape since men cannot control their lust. But everyone forgets that part and just says homosexuals are automatically pedophiles (see BSA not wanting to accept homosexual leaders despite their bad record of child abuse even though they only accept heterosexuals).
Homosexuals can just as easily be rapists as heterosexuals. So that arguement is retarded.
Homosexaulity is immoral IMO (opinions don't need facts, just so you don't go off on me for that). Christians are only as judgemental as their creator (or are supposed to be), meaning, if God's word says being homosexual is sinful then, according to God, and christians, no one should be homosexual.
I have never thought a homosexual was a pedophile. I can see a homosexual being a pedophile just as easily as a heterosexual being a pedophile, but I have never just assumed that homosexuals are pedophiles. Your aguement here is what called a generalization, and you use generalizations in about 99.9% of your arguements, just to let you know. (The percent statistic was only to stress that you use generalizations way to much, that figure is not actually right, it was to make a point, figured I'd say that so you couldn't jump on me).
Once again, since you cannot disprove the existence of God (which you can't) then for people who believe he exist, and follow his word, aren't any more judgemental than if you believe in the big bang theory and bash christianity.
Quote from "Equinox" »
On the other hand, homophobia is possibly sort of a natural phenomenon. So it's easy for me to see how some homophobic human decided to add that bit into the holy books to make gays look bad. I know too many totally non-religious people who hate gays just because they don't fit into their macho man profile.
"Possibly sort of" you sound so convincing like you have your facts straight, source please? Science that attempts to prove homosexuality as being a born characteristic can easily be discredited by other science showing it isn't. The science over that issue is way out of the league of being able to use as facts.
The word of God was inspired by him, so the writers only wrote what He would have wanted in the bible.
Quote from "Equinox" »
As for me, IDIC, to those who know what that means. I find homosexuals and others fascinating. They have created relationships and families so different from those of heterosexuals, often much less biased (2 people sharing not one man controlling the house with a female housewife).
Yeah they are different types of relationships, did it take you that long to udnerstand the concept of a heterosexual relationship vs a homosexual relationship? And the part about the "man controlling..." you didn't prove anything by that. All you did was stereotype heterosexual relationships.
Seriously, I'm a better Christian than most of you Christians put together. You do not value this world or the people in it, all you ever think about is how everyone is sinful and should be punished (including you, you can't even value YOURSELF, see Nektu's list of all the bad things he done, what kind of a destructive philosophy is this?). All I ever think about is to understand all humans in the world and why they act the way they do and not hold it against them, as the result of the original design. And I'm a satanist.
The world is truly upside down.[/QUOTE]
Quote from "Equinox" »
Once again, how do you know what I appreciate in my life or anyone elses? You can't read our hearts or thoughts. I do think about how sinful the world (world meaning in general, not EVERYONE who lives on earth) is but I don't want to see anyone be punished. I hope sinful people will change their ways.
Lastly how can you be a better christian if you're a satanist, very contradictive. That makes zero since.
P.S. Once again, thanks for skipping over my LONG post a couple posts back.
@TwilightRealm
You need to chill out dude. You are getting carried away.
I don't see Nektu calling people stupid or retarded for their arguments.
Learn from the example.
Her arguement is stupid though, so I stand by what I said. I never called her stupid, just her arguement.
Edit: Plus, I doubt you read what I even said (my arguement against Equinox's), if you did and made that comment afterwards, I feel the same about you too. lol
Your arguemnts are retarded. And thanks for just skipping over my comments to earlier things you said, can't handle the pressure?
A person who starts with "your arguments are retarded" is generally not worth arguing with. Your argument is pure BS. Which is why I didn't argue with you. I am going to now, though, for pure fun.
Quote from "TwilightRealm" »
Homosexuals can just as easily be rapists as heterosexuals. So that arguement is retarded.
Homosexuals have no interest in women. My argument is that women do not rape men anywhere near as often, and that homosexual men are usually not as hyper, also. The constant drive to have sex is a male heterosexual one, and of nobody else except a few exceptions.
This is not to say heterosexual males are bad. Merely to say that you can pick any group and generalize it (yes, that's precisely what I did, and what other people do when they attack homosexuality, THAT is why I brought it up, if you agree that my argument is retarded you must realize any argument of this sort against homosexuality is also retarded).
Quote from "TwilightRealm" »
Homosexaulity is immoral IMO
Why? I've just said about the generalizations are, using your own words, retarded. So why do you think something that brings no apparent harm is immoral?
Opinions very much need facts, what the hell are you talking about? If there's nothing to back your opinion up there's no point in having it at all.
Quote from "TwilightRealm" »
Christians are only as judgemental as their creator
Christians are as judgemental as their creator have given them the ability to be. Christians are not the creator and thus do not need to share the judgementalism.
Quote from "TwilightRealm" »
if God's word says being homosexual is sinful then, according to God, and christians, no one should be homosexual.
Sure, except god never said such a thing, at least, nobody can prove that he had.
Quote from "TwilightRealm" »
Once again, since you cannot disprove the existence of God (which you can't) then for people who believe he exist, and follow his word, aren't any more judgemental than if you believe in the big bang theory and bash christianity.
I don't believe in big bang theory. I am not interested in disproving the existence of god. I AM interested in bashing Christianity, though. But not because it's different from my views, but because it is evil and causes bad things in the world. Which homosexuality DOES NOT.
Quote from "TwilightRealm" »
The word of God was inspired by him, so the writers only wrote what he would have wanted in the bible.
The writers wrote whatever they wanted to write, and even if god wanted them to write what they want, it doesn't guarantee that what was written should be followed.
Have you ever considered that god cause the bible to be written to test humans and see how many of them will succumb to it vs how many would blaze their own trail and construct their own philosophy?
Quote from "TwilightRealm" »
Yeah they are different types of relationships, did it take you that long to udnerstand the concept of a heterosexual relationship vs a homosexual relationship? And the part about the "man controlling..." you didn't prove anything by that. All you did was stereotype heterosexual relationships.
Stereotypes are often correct. It is changing, but in the past, every heterosexual relationship in the norm was that way, whether you like it or not. Gays, in their nature, don't go by that. Gays, in fact, are automatic, forced non-conformists due to how much society despises them. In my eyes, that places them very high.
Quote from "TwilightRealm" »
Once again, how do you know what I appreciate in my life or anyone elses? You can't read our hearts or thoughts. I do think about how sinful the world (world meaning in general, not EVERYONE who lives on earth) is but I don't want to see anyone be punished. I hope sinful people will change their ways.
I don't, I'm talking about the general, the majority, of Christianity, which caused things such as the inquisition, crusades, Salem witch trials, and many other things, and I have little proof that Christianity ever carried out true god's word which was to love all people, not hunt them down and kill them.
If you paid any attention to what I said, I was saying god's word didn't take, because Christians, generally (the majority), do NOT follow god's word but merely their interpretation of his word, which is biased towards their needs and views.
Quote from "TwilightRealm" »
Lastly how can you be a better christian if you're a satanist, very contradictive. That makes zero since.
Well, someone doesn't understand sarcasm and irony...
I read half you post and decided since you were chopping my statements in half and not quoting them in their entirety that you weren't worth the arugeing with. We have opposing views, I'll leave it at that.
Let me just say, you know nothing about true Chistianity, that being what the bible has to say.
Want a look at the true church? Church of Christ.
Not catholics, not lutherans, not methodists, not calvanists. Just CHRISTSIANS.
You lump every man-made tradition of christianity into one catagory and call them christians.
O, btw, me thinking homosexuality is immoral doesn't need any backing up, it's a personal belief that's why I had the parenthasees () after that statement. If I would have said "Homosexuality is immoral" without the "IMO." Then I would have had to backed it up.
I still stand by this statement : Since you cannot disprove the existence of God (which you can't) then for people who believe he exist, and follow his word, aren't any more judgemental than if you believe in the big bang theory and bash christianity.
And Don trying to counter that statement ^ with his arguement is bs b/c satanists (man-sacrificing fucker, as you put it) harm people physically, TRUE christianity does not physically harm anyone.
And to @Don
The parts of my arguements you quoted own your counter-arguements. Good try though.
P.S. Equinox, you're one of my favorite DiabloFans members, just to let you know. That was not sarcasm, you really are.
I'm done here, I got what I wanted to say out. Thanks. LOVE YOU GUYS!
Umpa, sorry for the delay. But as promised I'm ready to respond after dealing with some stuff around here. I'll read the other posts too. And Nekro, I haven't forgotten you bud.
(Both scenarios under the idea that a god exists) Scenario 1, with the sense I described: If we had that sense, then nobody would have an excuse to believe that their actions were not going to reap divine and eternal consequences. The lack of belief could be given to being mislead by Lucifer.
1.) I agree with the first part. But, I don't think that the lack of belief would be nor could be blamed on Lucifer for misleading them if they didn't make a valid attempt at searching out God. That kind of pushing the blame onto someone or something else is just laziness on that persons behalf. "The Devil made me do it" is not an excuse that holds any water with me.
Scenario 2, without the sense: Now there are only 5 senses. We use these to discover and identify the world and everything else around us. Some people read holy texts and choose to believe in god. Those people are saved. Other people choose to follow what their senses give them. Senses only lead to one conclusion: the absence of God. Those people are sent to an eternal grave ( I don't believe in a burning Hell, it says right in the bible that once we die we are conscious of nothing).
Of course there is the case that some will try to make that God is all around us and we can see it through examining the bible and then seeing the events of the world unfold and the wondrous works from his holiness. Well, obviously some people don't see it that way and are referring to primary evidence that appeals to the senses directly. If this is the case, an Omnipotent God would know our logical thought process and know we could come to such conclusions. Who is responsible in that situation? The human?
Lets say somebody presents the argument in retort to that saying "Well, Satan deceived those people and that is why it's not the fault of God, after all, this whole bout between God and Satan is to see who Satan can turn against God." Well, if Satan deceived us with his ancient and super natural understanding of the universe how can we be held accountable with merely our physical understanding? Why would it be the fault of the human for not perceiving God because he was deceived by an infinitely smarter being? Unless of course there is a sixth sense. That is the only reasoning I can come up with as to why God would not be accountable.
2a) I agree with this first part. You have those who believe from reading, discussing. You also have people who do not believe because God is not something they can touch, see, hear, smell. They use their physical senses, but are not using their spiritual senses. I believe that we all have that spiritual sense(or sixth sense), but not everyone is in touch with nor acknowledges it. As for the Burning Hell, the Book of Revelation does mention a place of burning fire, brimstone and gnashing of teeth as if in agony. (Revelation 20:7-15)
2b) Yes, an Omnipotent God would know our thought process being the creator of humanity. In the time before Jesus, there were prophets whom God talked to to spread the message. Then, during Jesus' life He too during His Earthly ministry talked about "the Kingdom of God" and how to get there. Those who were his Disciples wrote down what they saw and heard, the Gospels, and they are in the Bible for anyone to read. But even reading it, people will still come to their own conclusions through their own thought process. So you really can't fault God for lack of trying.
2c) Satan was the first Angel to be created. He was the most beautiful of all of what God created. Covered in the most beautiful jewels and adornments. He was given the place of Covering Cherub above God.(Ezekiel 28:13-17, Isaiah 14:13-14) But, being a created being, Satan isn't perfect. You could say pridefullness set in. Wanting to be as great as or greater than God.
I believe that Satan has excellent knowledge of the Bible, and is able to turn it and twist it to deceive. But because we too have the ability to search out God, and then don't, then we are accountable for that. But, Satan too, Biblically, will suffer for the deception. (Revelation 20:10)
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Edit: I'm taking Nektu's stance on your guys whole conversation.
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The best post of this whole thread lol...
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Yes, the book of Genesis states that men was created in God's image. But what the interpretation is His image of how He sees us. Not to be exactly like Him. But after the fall, that's when things went down hill for humanity. I think Adam and Eve would have stayed in the garden along with humanity if they had obeyed the one thing God told them not to do. Which they didn't. They had chosen to disobey because the serpent made it look so appealing. Here is where I say free will entered in or what you like to say:
We feel anger, hate and lust because it is human nature and yes it was created in us. Kind of like our own attributes. But it's how we act on them.
Maybe to you. But, we won't if you don't want to. Fair enough?
Alright. That's very fair, my apologies. According to the Bible I'm an adulterer, a sexual immoral person(not in a homosexual way), I've been a liar, a God slanderer, I've taking God's name in vain, I've come just short of murder by nearly strangling someone to death, I've not honored my father and mother, I've put other gods before God, I've stolen, I've been a false witness. And by those standards, I deserve to be judged by God.
So was I. God's attitude towards humans is unconditional love, hence the sending of His Son Jesus to die for humanity. What other way to show it but by sending His only Son to die on a cross for the sins of the world.
You call it freedom, I call it free will. To have the knowledge that He may or may not be there, and then acting upon it. But who is to say who is going to turn away from Him or believe in Him. You? Me? Doubt it.
You and I don't. I agree. But it doesn't mean that it couldn't have happened.
Where? I think I know what you're talking about but want to be sure and check that out and not talk out of my ass.
That doesn't mean it didn't take. True, I think Christians get it wrong a lot. There is more judgment than love. I think it also boils down to what is being taught in Churches by preachers. But I think they also miss the mark by not double checking and reading the Bible on their own and thus just taking a persons opinion and thinking that's it, the end. It also comes from not living it and just listening to it.
I'm not following what this has to do with the discussion. But you've peaked my curiosity.
Wasn't Russia one of the countries that persecuted Christians until the fall of the wall? I remember that Bibles were not allowed into the country and missionaries had to go about things secretly. Much like in China today, where the only recognized church is the government run one. Where Christians are still being put into jail and beaten. Which is interesting, since the underground Church in China is the fastest growing Christian Church in the world.
I was generalizing because this is a religion thread, yet Christianity is the only one being discussed. It has nothing to do with the amount of Christians here.
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-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Just because something is created in something's image does not mean every aspect is carried over... That arguement is ridiculous and you know it. If it was meant that then God would have just created himself. He created us in his image to have qualities as him such as the characteristic of love. Free will is also something God gave man which is where we have a choice to betray him (sin) or not. The bible, God's word, already said we arent perfect. Why do you think Jesus died for everyone?
Disproving destiny is easy btw. Let's see... Ok, if I am on top of a mountain looking down at the curvy road, winding back and fourth up the mountain to where I am and I see a car going down the mountain and one coming up the mountain and one of them is flying like a madman in the opposing lane (the wrong lane that he shouldnt be in) and it's apparent that neither of them cannot see each other and they are approaching each other rapidly then just because I know the outcome of a situation doesnt mean I directly affected their choices to lead to that outcome. In theory, cause I never really knew the outcome till I saw them crash, but just so you see the point.
Agreed.
You can't compare the infallible to the fallible, that's just how it is. Comparing God to a human is foolish.
Agreed to a certain extent. But what he was talking about should be assumed personal, and after what he remarked you should understand that and not be such jerk about it.
Ok wow, where to begin...
Free will gives us the CHOICE. So, anything we do is not caused by God, but our own reasoning. You contradict yourself, God didn't put any thoughts into us about turning from him or turning towards him. He wants us to love him and follow his word but it is our CHOICE. God does know who will go to heaven and hell. But, if God just went straight to judgement based on the lives he knew we would have lived (based on OUR choices) then why would he have even created the "bad people" (people going to hell) in the first place? You are also using the thing you are trying to disprove to prove your statements. You said "Our ability to turn from the creator is something he put into us, somehow. It's called wanting freedom." Do I even need to comment on that? I will anyways, you said that God put an urge in us, but you are trying to disprove God.
If Christianity is based on what God said then I think it would have to say what God had to say, not the total opposite. Maybe your being a little judgemental in your views of christians.
EDIT: In the very first quote, that I quoted you saying you were saying that God is fallible because his creation is fallible. Actually, we were created pure and clean (in a sense infallible). Sin came into existence because Adam and Eve used their free will to decide to go against God's will, thus they were created without sin, pure, clean (infallible) but they made the decision to be faillble (sin). All humans are fallible, or, in other terms, not perfect as their creator (creator [God] being perfect) but they can get back on track because of Jesus going to the cross. So, the point is though, man is fallible because of man's own decisions, not because of God. Not because their creator is supposedly fallible (which is not true) but because man is to lustful and greedy at some point in their life because of free will.
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I printed it out to take home with me. About to leave work here in a few. I'll post something on it before the end of the weekend.
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I am flattered bud.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Yes and so did the men who swore celibacy and to priesthood and turned out to be pedophiles. If I were to take the farce further, it can always be said Paul swore celibacy because he got turned down by a lesbian.
But I guess that's something plain offensive to many of my christian friends, so I do apologize.
But it was just to prove a point that celibacy means nothing.
I do not quite understand this point. Are you saying that being a homosexual is a sin. I know now that according to the bible it is. But tell me what you think- bible aside?
Because with the bible regarding homosexuality as a sin, it becomes a religion exclusive to heterosexuals.
I really don't believe that the point I mentioned falls under free will.
A person does not choose the colour of his skin nor the colour of his eyes. He is born with it.
Just as a homosexual or a straight guy is born one.
Let's put science and genes aside.
If homosexuality was a choice- which sensible person would make such a choice?
With the amount of discrimination, hate and prejudice against them, nobody reasonable would do so.
And it would be quite preposterous to say all homosexuals are unreasonable people. If it were the case, homosexuals would be a very small population...a bit like psychopaths and not in the amount they are today.
I take a strong/aggressive stance against such discrimination because one of my best friends is a lesbian. She has 2 different jobs to be able to make ends meet as she looks alone after her small brother. On her free days, she still finds time to visit the orphanage and home for the elderly. I find her to be a wonderful person and I just can't bear with shit that people come up to her her just because she's gay. As long as they don't know, she's the best person in the world, but as soon as they know- it's like real shit!
It has always been the word of man. Sorry about that but the book was written by man. Jesus did not dictate each word while the people wrote.
I personally believe Jesus was an awesome guy. It is more from a feeling that actually reading anything about him(though reading did contribute).
I don't think he was God, he was a man- a simple one which makes him so much more incredible for what he did. I believe he fully deserves the praise and respect he gets.
Anyway my take on religionS
I turn my head to one side and I see some christians hating/condemning homosexuals in the name of God.
I turn to the other side and I see some muslims blowing themselves up in the name of Allah, killing people while shouting the name of God.
And then there are hindus burning mosques and muslims burning temples as revenge against each other...all in the name of God.
However to me none of them is taking God's name. They are simply resting on religions' cushions.
Religion to the weak-minded = fanatics
Religion to the wicked = more power as they control fanatics.
Religion has become the poison of our society. Despite it all, i do not view religion as bad. It is just a tool which in the wrong hands can become dangerous. You can use a knife to cut your vegetables. You can use the same knife to kill a person.
Religion according to me is good. I'll explain how.
A man just broke his leg, which now is in a cast. He needs a crutch to get around.
And that crutch is religion in my eyes.
The man's leg will heal eventually at a point when he will no longer need the crutch.
He can now walk freely. He can now run.
Alas many people become attached to the crutch and are reluctant to leave it. To a healthy man walking constantly with a crutch, that crutch becomes eventually his handicap.
My point is that religion as a foundation can help you form your ideals, morals and philosophies in life. But at some point, you have to realize and open your ideas and start to run- as a free man.
Those people should not be eternally punished for being attracted to the same sex. And if they are, then at least do them enough justice to be honest about what they are being punished for. They are being punished for being gay, not choosing to be gay.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Homosexuality is a sin according to the bible, so fi you are asking a christian why they think it is wrong (bible aside) then you sir are stupid.
You can't compare the skin color you are born with, with free will. One is a variable you have no control over (skin color) and the other is, well, free will. Duh, do I even need to explain that? Free will is your choice of how you will live your life, not controlling the uncontrolable.
Just because it was writtien by man does not mean it wasn't inspired by God. Thus if it was inspired of God it had his seal and approval.
There is no way to disprove God completely. So, that being true, you cannot disprove the ideas behind everything I just talked about, FROM A CHRISTIAN STANDPOINT.
You have mixed way to many FALSE religions with true christianity, which doesnt involve blowing yourself up, faith healing, and so on, ideas not found in God's word.
Christians aren't any more judgemental than anyone else, of even judgemental at all. We all have opinions, so do christians. So you calling religious people "weak" isn't being judgemental?
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I am glad I am stupid. At least I need not discriminate people based on their sexuality.
And something fascinating- while you bumped yourself in a question not addressed to you, you seem hesitant to say whether you regard homosexuality as a sin. You are very careful with your wording I see.
In any case my poor sir, being a christian shouldn't prevent someone from using their brain. Which explains my analogy of religion as a crutch. Whereby you still depend so much on religion that the whole world becomes altered to your eyes.
The bible was written ages ago. You live in the present my friend and which is the reason why I asked Nektu the question. I hope what I wrote was not too stupid for you to understand.
You missed my point...completely.
I was talking about homosexuality as a choice and how it is NOT so.
No need to explain free will to me. I understand it much better than you , i assure you.
Men does not equal God. They could have been inspired just as much as they couldn't have been. Mute point. you cannot prove either. The only thing you can is- that the writing was done by men.
.
I believe in God. Period.
False religions???? Poor Muslims and hindus...
I wrote something in the previous post:
Religion to the weak-minded = fanatics
I truly regret saying this but you just confirmed what i previously said.
I will reveal something extraordinary to you- WE ALL JUDGE.
We judge a person's behaviour or way of life and to us, this person is XXXXX according to how we saw him act.
BUT if you are judging someone on the color of their skin, their ethnicity or anything that they cannot change, you just confirm just how much of an ignorant human you are. Simple as that.
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I don't see anything wrong with it. It doesn't hurt anybody, it does not predict anything outside of social attitude, it helps overpopulation, and it shows the variety of human nature.
I mean, pedophilia is bad and one who has it must be helped in order to ensure they don't act on it. But homosexuality? What did it ever do to you?
I could say heterosexuality is worse because it leads to rape since men cannot control their lust. But everyone forgets that part and just says homosexuals are automatically pedophiles (see BSA not wanting to accept homosexual leaders despite their bad record of child abuse even though they only accept heterosexuals).
On the other hand, homophobia is possibly sort of a natural phenomenon. So it's easy for me to see how some homophobic human decided to add that bit into the holy books to make gays look bad. I know too many totally non-religious people who hate gays just because they don't fit into their macho man profile.
As for me, IDIC, to those who know what that means. I find homosexuals and others fascinating. They have created relationships and families so different from those of heterosexuals, often much less biased (2 people sharing not one man controlling the house with a female housewife). Seriously, I'm a better Christian than most of you Christians put together. You do not value this world or the people in it, all you ever think about is how everyone is sinful and should be punished (including you, you can't even value YOURSELF, see Nektu's list of all the bad things he done, what kind of a destructive philosophy is this?). All I ever think about is to understand all humans in the world and why they act the way they do and not hold it against them, as the result of the original design. And I'm a satanist.
The world is truly upside down.
Your arguemnts are retarded. And thanks for just skipping over my comments to earlier things you said, can't handle the pressure?
Homosexuals can just as easily be rapists as heterosexuals. So that arguement is retarded.
Homosexaulity is immoral IMO (opinions don't need facts, just so you don't go off on me for that). Christians are only as judgemental as their creator (or are supposed to be), meaning, if God's word says being homosexual is sinful then, according to God, and christians, no one should be homosexual.
I have never thought a homosexual was a pedophile. I can see a homosexual being a pedophile just as easily as a heterosexual being a pedophile, but I have never just assumed that homosexuals are pedophiles. Your aguement here is what called a generalization, and you use generalizations in about 99.9% of your arguements, just to let you know. (The percent statistic was only to stress that you use generalizations way to much, that figure is not actually right, it was to make a point, figured I'd say that so you couldn't jump on me).
Once again, since you cannot disprove the existence of God (which you can't) then for people who believe he exist, and follow his word, aren't any more judgemental than if you believe in the big bang theory and bash christianity.
"Possibly sort of" you sound so convincing like you have your facts straight, source please? Science that attempts to prove homosexuality as being a born characteristic can easily be discredited by other science showing it isn't. The science over that issue is way out of the league of being able to use as facts.
The word of God was inspired by him, so the writers only wrote what He would have wanted in the bible.
Yeah they are different types of relationships, did it take you that long to udnerstand the concept of a heterosexual relationship vs a homosexual relationship? And the part about the "man controlling..." you didn't prove anything by that. All you did was stereotype heterosexual relationships.
Seriously, I'm a better Christian than most of you Christians put together. You do not value this world or the people in it, all you ever think about is how everyone is sinful and should be punished (including you, you can't even value YOURSELF, see Nektu's list of all the bad things he done, what kind of a destructive philosophy is this?). All I ever think about is to understand all humans in the world and why they act the way they do and not hold it against them, as the result of the original design. And I'm a satanist.
The world is truly upside down.[/QUOTE]
Lastly how can you be a better christian if you're a satanist, very contradictive. That makes zero since.
P.S. Once again, thanks for skipping over my LONG post a couple posts back.
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You need to chill out dude. You are getting carried away.
I don't see Nektu calling people stupid or retarded for their arguments.
Learn from the example.
Edit: Plus, I doubt you read what I even said (my arguement against Equinox's), if you did and made that comment afterwards, I feel the same about you too. lol
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Homosexuals have no interest in women. My argument is that women do not rape men anywhere near as often, and that homosexual men are usually not as hyper, also. The constant drive to have sex is a male heterosexual one, and of nobody else except a few exceptions.
This is not to say heterosexual males are bad. Merely to say that you can pick any group and generalize it (yes, that's precisely what I did, and what other people do when they attack homosexuality, THAT is why I brought it up, if you agree that my argument is retarded you must realize any argument of this sort against homosexuality is also retarded).
Why? I've just said about the generalizations are, using your own words, retarded. So why do you think something that brings no apparent harm is immoral?
Opinions very much need facts, what the hell are you talking about? If there's nothing to back your opinion up there's no point in having it at all.
Christians are as judgemental as their creator have given them the ability to be. Christians are not the creator and thus do not need to share the judgementalism.
Sure, except god never said such a thing, at least, nobody can prove that he had.
I don't believe in big bang theory. I am not interested in disproving the existence of god. I AM interested in bashing Christianity, though. But not because it's different from my views, but because it is evil and causes bad things in the world. Which homosexuality DOES NOT.
The writers wrote whatever they wanted to write, and even if god wanted them to write what they want, it doesn't guarantee that what was written should be followed.
Have you ever considered that god cause the bible to be written to test humans and see how many of them will succumb to it vs how many would blaze their own trail and construct their own philosophy?
Stereotypes are often correct. It is changing, but in the past, every heterosexual relationship in the norm was that way, whether you like it or not. Gays, in their nature, don't go by that. Gays, in fact, are automatic, forced non-conformists due to how much society despises them. In my eyes, that places them very high.
I don't, I'm talking about the general, the majority, of Christianity, which caused things such as the inquisition, crusades, Salem witch trials, and many other things, and I have little proof that Christianity ever carried out true god's word which was to love all people, not hunt them down and kill them.
If you paid any attention to what I said, I was saying god's word didn't take, because Christians, generally (the majority), do NOT follow god's word but merely their interpretation of his word, which is biased towards their needs and views.
Well, someone doesn't understand sarcasm and irony...
I read half you post and decided since you were chopping my statements in half and not quoting them in their entirety that you weren't worth the arugeing with. We have opposing views, I'll leave it at that.
Let me just say, you know nothing about true Chistianity, that being what the bible has to say.
Want a look at the true church? Church of Christ.
Not catholics, not lutherans, not methodists, not calvanists. Just CHRISTSIANS.
You lump every man-made tradition of christianity into one catagory and call them christians.
O, btw, me thinking homosexuality is immoral doesn't need any backing up, it's a personal belief that's why I had the parenthasees () after that statement. If I would have said "Homosexuality is immoral" without the "IMO." Then I would have had to backed it up.
I still stand by this statement : Since you cannot disprove the existence of God (which you can't) then for people who believe he exist, and follow his word, aren't any more judgemental than if you believe in the big bang theory and bash christianity.
And Don trying to counter that statement ^ with his arguement is bs b/c satanists (man-sacrificing fucker, as you put it) harm people physically, TRUE christianity does not physically harm anyone.
And to @Don
The parts of my arguements you quoted own your counter-arguements. Good try though.
P.S. Equinox, you're one of my favorite DiabloFans members, just to let you know. That was not sarcasm, you really are.
I'm done here, I got what I wanted to say out. Thanks. LOVE YOU GUYS!
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1.) I agree with the first part. But, I don't think that the lack of belief would be nor could be blamed on Lucifer for misleading them if they didn't make a valid attempt at searching out God. That kind of pushing the blame onto someone or something else is just laziness on that persons behalf. "The Devil made me do it" is not an excuse that holds any water with me.
2a) I agree with this first part. You have those who believe from reading, discussing. You also have people who do not believe because God is not something they can touch, see, hear, smell. They use their physical senses, but are not using their spiritual senses. I believe that we all have that spiritual sense(or sixth sense), but not everyone is in touch with nor acknowledges it. As for the Burning Hell, the Book of Revelation does mention a place of burning fire, brimstone and gnashing of teeth as if in agony. (Revelation 20:7-15)
2b) Yes, an Omnipotent God would know our thought process being the creator of humanity. In the time before Jesus, there were prophets whom God talked to to spread the message. Then, during Jesus' life He too during His Earthly ministry talked about "the Kingdom of God" and how to get there. Those who were his Disciples wrote down what they saw and heard, the Gospels, and they are in the Bible for anyone to read. But even reading it, people will still come to their own conclusions through their own thought process. So you really can't fault God for lack of trying.
2c) Satan was the first Angel to be created. He was the most beautiful of all of what God created. Covered in the most beautiful jewels and adornments. He was given the place of Covering Cherub above God.(Ezekiel 28:13-17, Isaiah 14:13-14) But, being a created being, Satan isn't perfect. You could say pridefullness set in. Wanting to be as great as or greater than God.
I believe that Satan has excellent knowledge of the Bible, and is able to turn it and twist it to deceive. But because we too have the ability to search out God, and then don't, then we are accountable for that. But, Satan too, Biblically, will suffer for the deception. (Revelation 20:10)
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Just wondering if you read my PM yet?
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