If you have ever made a build using the skill calculator you will want to read this whole post. It is very relevant to your interests!
So I was watching a stream today, and requested that the streamer do some tests so that we could determine the formula for critical hits!! He actually agreed to do the tests and we figured out the formula for critical hits and skills that "increase you damage" by x%.
These are the tests we did:
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Using a barb with a weapon that adds +30% crit damage. We received these results from attacking:
Regular attack (no skills at all) non-crits did 38-39 damage.
With a crit they did 68-69. This means that either 80% of damage was added, or the total damage was multiplied by 1.8.
Using hammer of the ancients, a non-crit did 68-69 damage. Expected result, because HoA multiplies your base damage by 1.8.
Now the important part! A crit hammer of the ancients did 123 damage. This is proof that critical damage bonuses multiply your TOTAL damage. If it were to multiply its bonus by your skill's base damage, it would have done 99 damage.
We then tested Hammer of the ancients with battle rage turned on!
Non-crit hammer of the ancients with battle rage on did 86-88 damage.
Critical hit Hammer of the ancients with battle rage on did 160-164 damage. This is 1.3 times the damage of a critical hit without battle rage on.
This means that skills that make you "deal x% more damage" multiply your TOTAL damage by this number.
To me, this is very disappointing.... At first glance, it tells me that in order to do any decent damage, you must invest in crit or skills that "increase your damage by x%" otherwise you will simply be outclassed by players who are multiplying their entire damage by these attributes....
Warning: two bad/biased barb builds below. Each has the exact same stat total, fury generation, and the exact same ability to spend fury. I shall compare the difference in what they do due to learning the formulas of critical hits and +increased damage.... One build is intentionally aiming for crits, whereas the other is intentionally aiming for high damage without crits, and instead of using battle rage (which is basically a passive skill that subtracts fury. fun fun), it's utilizing [insert skill here], which, thanks to the formulas, will never allow any other sustainable skill, or perhaps even burst skill, to compete with the sustainable damage provided by these formulas.
For each build. Both barbs have the same skills with different runes.
We are going to assume that items with +attack bonuses reach the same relative bonuses as items with +critical damage to them. This is assumed because in the beta, items that give +attack (say an item with +20 attack) also can be found with the exact same numerical bonuses for +critical damage (an item with +20% critical damage).
Each barb will have the same total bonuses when combining attack with bonus crit damage and the same weapon damage.
Each barb will do one retaliate, one overpower and two hammers of the ancients and is assumed to be already in the action with all applied bonuses (frenzy stacks, battle rage, overpower/revenge bonuses).
Build #1. The crit/increase damage build:
Made up build, with realistic end game stats:
500 attack, +500% critical damage (1000 total relevant stats), enough precision for a 10% base crit chance, 10% lifesteal from items (20% total when the passive bloodthirst is included), weapon damage of 250.
Overpower: 7,200 non-crit, 43,200 crit. With 63% crit chance, this averages 29,160 damage and 5,832 health restored per Overpower.
Revenge: 7,200 non-crit, 43,200 crit. With 63% crit chance, this averages 29,160 damage and 5,832 health restored per Revenge.
Hammer of the Ancients: 19,008 non-crit, 114,048 crit. With 78% crit chance, this averages 93,138 damage and 18,627 health restored per hammer. Multiply by 2 hammers of the ancients is 18,6276 damage and 37,255 healed.
Total from all four attacks is: 244,596 damage and 48,919 healed.
Build #2. Same skills (except for rend), different runes, ignoring the crit/increased damage bonus aspect.
Made up build, with realistic end game stats:
900 attack (since it's a non-crit build) and +100% critical damage (1000 total relevant stats), enough precision for a 10% base crit chance, 10% lifesteal from items (20% total when the passive bloodthirst is included), weapon damage of 250.
Overpower: 3,750 non-crit, 7,500 crit. With 20% crit chance, this averages 4,500 damage and 900 health restored (plus 18% of max health) per Overpower.
Revenge: 6,375 non-crit, 12,750 crit. With 20% chance to crit, this averages 7,650 damage and 1530 health restored per Revenge.
Hammer of the ancients: 9,900 non-crit, 19,800 crit. With 35% chance to crit, this averages 13,365 damage and 2,673 health restored per hammer. Multiply by 2 hammers of the ancients is 26,730 damage and 5,346 healed.
Let's add a rend in there just because. No one has tested if dots can crit, so we'll say it does 9,225 over 3 seconds and heals for 1,845.
Total from all four attacks (plus the rend, I guess) is: 48,105 damage and 9,621 healed.
This crit build does over 5 times the damage of the pure attack/non-crit build. It also most likely heals for far more, despite the other build incorporating healing runes.
What does this tell us?
Basically, because of the way damage is calculated, you can literally double, triple, or more, all of your damage just by using the formulas to your advantage. At first glance it appears that optimal builds will revolve around abusing the formulas instead of actually choosing skills that have specific/niche uses/etc that compliment the character. It appears to add far less variety. I would like to hear what people have to say.
You need to fix your math and account for the 400 extra attack in your second build. Using a dps optimized build pitted against a random crap build is also not really the best way to illustrate how broken Battle Rage is.
I still say Frenzy is competitive with the other 2 rage builders, but it is obviously the top choice if you plan on spending a lot of rage on high damage skills.
If the 2 builds were relatively equalized(including crit chance) and you accounted for the 400 attack in build 2, then battle rage should show a clean 100% increase to it's build.
Also, there is is a big error in the math(as opposed to build bias). Your second build supposedly has 900 attack, yet the base hit is almost exactly half(basically minus Rage) that of the crit build that has only 500 attack. You need to factor in 400 attack into Build # 2.
I'm glad this was noticed. As far as I can tell, it is true that the build with 900 attack will do LESS damage than the build with 500 attack, just because of the way damage is calculated in the builds. This is what I am trying to bring attention towards, and I find it ridiculous.
You put a lot of effort into a horribly biased test.
It is intentionally biased. One build is based off of crits, the other is based off of having a high attack attribute. It does not change the fact that with the way damage is calculated, damage can literally be doubled, trippled, or more, just by choosing different runes on the same build. IMO this ability to literally multiply the total damage of everything you do with one skill/rune does not add variety to builds, it forces you to pick those skills/runes so that you can do as much damage as possible. Because of crits multiplying everything and "increases all damage" multiplying everything, it seems optimal builds will revolve around using these exponentially damage increasing formulas.
There is no reason to replace battle rage with rend for the purposes of the test(especially when you don't include rend in your math), and really no reason to take out Crimson Rune out of Overpower and put Obsidian in it's place to see the difference in +Crit Damage.
Rend was included in the calculations. The runes were changed to differentiate the crit build from a non-crit build. The Obsidian rune in Overpower will heal the barb. I did not say for how much, but considering it's purpose, and the results of the calculations from raw damage, it is possible that the damage version of Overpower will heal more then the healing version of Overpower just because of how insane the calcualtions are. Yes the example is extreme, intentionally.
Lastly, going by your own test results, you(the streamer) did not test out hammer of the ancients on the same mobs. First you state a non-crit hammer did 68-69, and then further in the post you go on to say that with Battle Rage on, hammer did 50 non-crit. Then you further went to explain that the Battle Rage Hammer crit was 1.3 times the non-rage hammer, yet obviously you used it on separate enemies which invalidates the numbers.
Lol, that was a typo. It's fixed now. I litrally got home from work and posted this with the data I wrote down while watching the stream earlier today. I didn't check for typos because I took a nap xD. My bad.
It is intentionally biased. One build is based off of crits, the other is based off of having a high attack attribute.
I don't see how replacing 4% crit rate and 100% increased damage with Rend helps the test... If you don't include it in the second build you should drop it from the first. If it were only 4% crit rate sure, but not including 100% flat damage in both builds invalidates the test.
Rend was included in the calculations. The runes were changed to differentiate the crit build from a non-crit build. Yes the example is extreme, intentionally.
Now I see it there at the end.... anyway, I really disagree with trying to use completely separate builds to determine whether attack is better than crit damage. It just doesn't make sense. It isn't a real test.
If you want to compare the two you need to equalize all other factors.
I'm glad this was noticed. As far as I can tell, it is true that the build with 900 attack will do LESS damage than the build with 500 attack, just because of the way damage is calculated in the builds.
Lets ignore builds and everything else for a moment, straight math.
This is a much better comparison, and it shows that % crit damage is superior given an equal crit chance. It also makes the point that yes, you would be doing half damage without Battle Rage, making that skill essential.
On the other hand, build 3 shows that focusing too heavily on +crit damage is not ideal either and with anything less than 100% crit rate would be worse than fully stacking attack. Even with 100% crit rate, a high crit damage build will not match a balanced build with the same 100% crit rate.
Everything above is consistent with your testing, and is how RPG's usually work when calculating damage.
You are right that Battle Rage seems essential to any Barb build. However, crit damage and attack are roughly equivalent.
The math where you compared builds is way off. The difference between rage and non-rage should simply be 100%, period. Not x6.
Ok, we'll do straight math. I'm sure everyone already knows the whole 5x5=25 is better than 9x1 = 9 argument you've made above. The crazy biased build was to draw attention to how radical damage outputs can be when basic runes on the same skills are changed.
I would like to clarify that the point of removing most of the crit from the damage build was to simply make it a damage build, whereas the crit build abused the high crit% increasing runes.
At any rate, one thing I was trying to point out is just how ridiculous the formulas make skills like battle rage/wizard's familiar/whatever.
With crimson battle rage, and crimson frenzy in PVE, there is no other combination of skills that allows the barb to reach the raw damage.
The 500 attack/crit damage barb with these abilities will do 6,600 non-crit damage with a 100% weapon damage move, keep in mind that 60% crit rate is nearly automatic with certain PvE setups.
It would take 2640 attack attacks for any barb that doesn't get those two specific skills in order to do that much damage with a non-crit attack using a 100% weapon damage move.... When the crit is added, it's even more of a joke just how pointless it is to build anything aside from crit and "increases all damage by x%."
This is why I am stating that the formulas blizzard have chosen have already centralized the stats that need to be obtained to do damage. There is no reason to diverge from doing over tripple damage automatically by using these rune sets.
That is of course, unless they utilize the formulas (the thing this topic is about) that completely centralize the stats that builds need to obtain in order to do damage. Add crimson to battle rage/frezny, you suddenly do more than TRIPPLE your previous damage. What other sustainable skills does the barb have that allows any of the other billions of builds to compete with this? What I'm trying to say is that you must abuse the formulas to get damage, otherwise you wont.
Thank you for making this post. I've come to the same conclusion a while back when I had a beta tester help me confirm the combat mechanics in a different forum. Regardless of whether he was dead on with the math, it's really not hard to see how ridiculously good +% dmg and +% crit dmg is. Sigh...sometimes I doubt the abilities of Blizz devs. How could an average intelligent gamer not be able to tell how OP a skill that doubles your dmg is? How could they proclaim "customization" when we are forced to take +% dmg or +% dmg taken runes/skills in order to be competitive in dmg?
Ok, we'll do straight math. I'm sure everyone already knows the whole 5x5=25 is better than 9x1 = 9 argument you've made above. The crazy biased build was to draw attention to how radical damage outputs can be when basic runes on the same skills are changed.
I would like to clarify that the point of removing most of the crit from the damage build was to simply make it a damage build, whereas the crit build abused the high crit% increasing runes.
At any rate, one thing I was trying to point out is just how ridiculous the formulas make skills like battle rage/wizard's familiar/whatever.
With crimson battle rage, and crimson frenzy in PVE, there is no other combination of skills that allows the barb to reach the raw damage.
The 500 attack/crit damage barb with these abilities and a modest 60% crit rate will do 6,600 non-crit damage with a 100% weapon damage move.
It would take 2640 attack for the non-crit barb to do that much damage with a non-crit attack using a 100% weapon damage move....
That is of course, unless they utilize the formulas (the thing this topic is about) that completely centralize the stats that builds need to obtain in order to do damage. Add crimson to battle rage/frezny, you suddenly do more than TRIPPLE your previous damage. What other sustainable skills does the barb has that allows any of the other billions of builds to compete with this? What I'm trying to say is that you must abuse the formulas to get damage, otherwise you wont.
Battle Rage isn't going to triple your damage. Please take a look at my math or run the numbers again. It will double your damage. That is it. Wherever you put battle rage into the equation it will never multiply end damage by more than 2.
I am not saying that isn't a lot, but overstating the difference by 100-500% is not helpful.
Ok, we'll do straight math. I'm sure everyone already knows the whole 5x5=25 is better than 9x1 = 9 argument you've made above. The crazy biased build was to draw attention to how radical damage outputs can be when basic runes on the same skills are changed.
I would like to clarify that the point of removing most of the crit from the damage build was to simply make it a damage build, whereas the crit build abused the high crit% increasing runes.
At any rate, one thing I was trying to point out is just how ridiculous the formulas make skills like battle rage/wizard's familiar/whatever. With crimson battle rage, and crimson frenzy in PVE, there is no other combination of skills that allows the barb to reach the raw damage.
The 500 attack/crit damage barb with these abilities and a modest 60% crit rate will do 6,600 non-crit damage with a 100% weapon damage move.
It would take 2640 attack for the non-crit barb to do that much damage with a non-crit attack using a 100% weapon damage move....
That is of course, unless they utilize the formulas (the thing this topic is about) that completely centralize the stats that builds need to obtain in order to do damage. Add crimson to battle rage/frezny, you suddenly do more than TRIPPLE your previous damage. What other sustainable skills does the barb has that allows any of the other billions of builds to compete with this? What I'm trying to say is that you must abuse the formulas to get damage, otherwise you wont.
Battle Rage isn't going to triple your damage. Please take a look at my math or run the numbers again. It will double your damage. That is it. Wherever you put battle rage into the equation it will never multiply end damage by more than 2.
I am not saying that isn't a lot, but overstating the difference by 100-500% is not helpful.
Battle rage and frenzy is +220% damage. that brings 1000 to 3200 which is over triple.
However, in the case of Frenzy it has competition. Bash has a rune that gives 80% with more up front damage. Cleave has much higher upfront damage and tons of AoE damage.
There are tradeoffs. Frenzy would obviously be the best choice of the 3 fury builders if you want to drop big earthquakes or other hard hitting abilities.
Battle Rage stands alone though, because you don't have to trade anything (besides other Battle Rage runes)to get the 100% bonus. It is up for 30 seconds, which may as well be forever in Diablo.
So Frenzy isn't really an issue. I don't see a solution to Battle Rage however. Every Barb will need it unless they have a special build that definitely requires 6 other skills.
Another point though, crit barb or not, they are going to want Battle Rage. That won't be a factor in the decision.
Crit damage and attack are still equal in value, given an equal crit chance. I am not sure I see much point in not having a high crit chance given some of the tradeoffs, if you are going pure damage. Otherwise, the utility may be enough to trade away 40% crit chance.
However, in the case of Frenzy it has competition. Bash has a rune that gives 80% with more up front damage. Cleave has much higher upfront damage and tons of AoE damage.
The bash rune takes 2.15 times longer to receive 2/3 of the bonus damage that frenzy provides. Frenzy will also make skills like hammer of the ancients faster too. I dont see how bash really compares, maybe stack them together? xD +200 from bash/frenzy and 100 from battle rage lol.
Battle Rage stands alone though, because you don't have to trade anything (besides other Battle Rage runes)to get the 100% bonus. It is up for 30 seconds, which may as well be forever in Diablo.
So Frenzy isn't really an issue. I don't see a solution to Battle Rage however. Every Barb will need it unless they have a special build that definitely requires 6 other skills.
And this is a major problem, because every single build that doesn't use crimson battle rage will never match its (sustained) damage. This does not in any way promote diverse builds, which is the entire point of the design of the skill/rune system.
Well, the game is still in beta testing. Not even open or closed yet, so these are the sort of inconsistencies they are looking for at the moment. Most of the game systems are down and only requires some fine tuning. This issue was probably looked over, but will get straightened out the further testing comes along.
Besides, I am sure there are other skills that are just as insanely broken as the ones you have pointed out, and I can assure you, even post release there will be some more crazy combos and busted builds to sneak out. It's going to take time to get the game fully ironed out and equal across the board as far as exploits are concerned.
However, although it's interesting to point this out to us, why don't you rather post it on the official forums so Blizzard can give it some attention. Clearly it has aggravated you and you feel they are limiting your experience of the game. I am sure it would be better to approach them about it, instead of pointing it out to people who can do nothing about it, other than agree with you that the game isn't finished yet.
Also, what is this thread supposed to be, disguised nerf barb thread? Battle rage is good enough that any dps build will probably want to take it, so, you propose that they "fix" this how? By nerfing it so it's no longer worth taking? GJ.
Need I remind you that the wizard gets their own similar buff, and while it is only a 40% damage increase, the wizard has other ways to hugely increase their damage, such as the +spell damage gem that they can socket into their weapon. A t2-t3 gem adds +10% spell damage, imagine how much a T14 gem will add? 200% spell damage? Fit 4 of those, 800% damage. Barb doesn't get a melee damage version, they get life leech instead. Yeah, battle rage is too good, let's nerf it so instead of it being a useful skill, nobody takes it instead! And endgame, a gemmed out wizard will massively outdps any dps barb.
I haven't looked at the gems, but 10 Attack = 10% damage so I am sure the barb won't have a problem keeping up in the gem department.
The point isn't about damage, or broken builds at all really. It is about a skill that is so good that people would be gimped not to take it. There is no apparent tradeoff to not taking Battle Rage other than taking up 1 of 6 slots. There is a lot of utility to be found in many other skills that could replace battle rage, but nothing that even comes close to matching 100% more damage for 30 seconds(no CD).
Honestly all they need to do is add that CD, and maybe it already has one...
Another point, has anyone tested if battle rage actually doubles the damage as people claim? For instance take a skill that does 200% weapon damage, does a 100% battle rage buff add 100% to make it 300% or does it double the 200% to 400%?
Apparently the un-runed Battle Rage adds 30% to end damage in the beta. The 100% will do the same.
DiabloSin, if every class gets +100% damage mechanics it might be because the game is that hard. You can't really say those things are overpowered by themselves, it is when those skills are practically required because there is no other way to double your damage for instance.
And Mienta, Crimson Overpower and Alabaster Revenge, +47% crit chance. Revenge won't be up all that often, but probably often enough if you keep pressing the attack and let ranged mobs peck at you.
The crit damage has been overstated though. You are going to want a balance to get the highest possible dps.
This thread is not about QQing at barb's being OP or anything like that. This thread is only to discuss what people think about skills that "increase your damage by x%" and how they multiply your total damage, and also crits and how they multiply your total damage as well. Previous posts explain why these formulas will centralize people's stat builds and skill choices simply because they provide the most damage.
If you didn't read previously, a barb with crimson frenzy and crimson battle rage does over triple his total damage. It's really just an example of how their power is just kinda gross... try to find a build that can even match a barb with those two skills. Is it even possible (I doubt it)? That's over centralizing if I ever saw it.
DiabloSin, if every class gets +100% damage mechanics it might be because the game is that hard. You can't really say those things are overpowered by themselves, it is when those skills are practically required because there is no other way to double your damage for instance.
And Mienta, Crimson Overpower and Alabaster Revenge, +47% crit chance. Revenge won't be up all that often, but probably often enough if you keep pressing the attack and let ranged mobs peck at you.
The crit damage has been overstated though. You are going to want a balance to get the highest possible dps.
I'm not saying it's overpowered, or wrong, i'm saying that calling for it to be changed or nerfed on the barb, when other classes get similar such skills, that is wrong. It's ridiculous that people are even calling for changes or saying something is overpowered based on speculation, we only see a small part of the game. So what if it's a good skill that most barbs will want to take? I can think of skills that are literally "must haves" for every class. At least it appears that they are must haves from what is revealed so far.
I agree with you in general, but in comparison the other classes that get similar abilities are on Cooldowns, targeted area effects(still on CD), etc.
And I don't believe anyone has called for a nerf exactly... just pointing out what appears to be what amounts to a near required skill for dps barbs. Albeit, point out a little too emphatically and with hyped up numbers...
Imagine a crit with this build with all possible damage modifiers activated!
Throw Weapon with Red rune = 462% weapon damage.
Battle Rage with Red rune = 100% more damage.
Max Bash with Blue rune = 80% more damage.
Wrath of the Berzerker with Red run = 75% more damage.
Brawler passive = 30% more damage when around 8 dudes.
No Escape passive = 100% more damage with Throw Weapon.
Get life back with fury generators + leach on gear.
Oh, and if you kill your target with that Throw Weapon (which you probably will if not a boss) you get that 20 fury back.
100+80+75+30 = 285% damage bonus on a Throw Weapon that does 924% weapon damage, so 924 * 2.85 = 2633.4% weapon damage for 20 fury?
DiabloSin, if every class gets +100% damage mechanics it might be because the game is that hard. You can't really say those things are overpowered by themselves, it is when those skills are practically required because there is no other way to double your damage for instance.
And Mienta, Crimson Overpower and Alabaster Revenge, +47% crit chance. Revenge won't be up all that often, but probably often enough if you keep pressing the attack and let ranged mobs peck at you.
The crit damage has been overstated though. You are going to want a balance to get the highest possible dps.
I'm not saying it's overpowered, or wrong, i'm saying that calling for it to be changed or nerfed on the barb, when other classes get similar such skills, that is wrong. It's ridiculous that people are even calling for changes or saying something is overpowered based on speculation, we only see a small part of the game. So what if it's a good skill that most barbs will want to take? I can think of skills that are literally "must haves" for every class. At least it appears that they are must haves from what is revealed so far.
I agree with you in general, but in comparison the other classes that get similar abilities are on Cooldowns, targeted area effects(still on CD), etc.
And I don't believe anyone has called for a nerf exactly... just pointing out what appears to be what amounts to a near required skill for dps barbs. Albeit, point out a little too emphatically and with hyped up numbers...
Just got done reading this whole thing and still not sure about a few things. I'd be willing to work out a worksheet (Excel sheet) with you guys to try and figure this out. It almost seems that there was, all be it moving, tipping point between the builds in one of the posts. I'd like to try a Barb out, in Beta hopefully, but if not, at launch. So I would like to have a good idea of skill/formulas at that point.
If any of you interested hit me up via forum PM, maybe do the other classes too.
P.S. These posts reminded me a little of EJ forums, with out the snootty rules lol
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So I was watching a stream today, and requested that the streamer do some tests so that we could determine the formula for critical hits!! He actually agreed to do the tests and we figured out the formula for critical hits and skills that "increase you damage" by x%.
These are the tests we did:
To me, this is very disappointing.... At first glance, it tells me that in order to do any decent damage, you must invest in crit or skills that "increase your damage by x%" otherwise you will simply be outclassed by players who are multiplying their entire damage by these attributes....
Warning: two bad/biased barb builds below. Each has the exact same stat total, fury generation, and the exact same ability to spend fury. I shall compare the difference in what they do due to learning the formulas of critical hits and +increased damage.... One build is intentionally aiming for crits, whereas the other is intentionally aiming for high damage without crits, and instead of using battle rage (which is basically a passive skill that subtracts fury. fun fun), it's utilizing [insert skill here], which, thanks to the formulas, will never allow any other sustainable skill, or perhaps even burst skill, to compete with the sustainable damage provided by these formulas.
For each build. Both barbs have the same skills with different runes.
We are going to assume that items with +attack bonuses reach the same relative bonuses as items with +critical damage to them. This is assumed because in the beta, items that give +attack (say an item with +20 attack) also can be found with the exact same numerical bonuses for +critical damage (an item with +20% critical damage).
Each barb will have the same total bonuses when combining attack with bonus crit damage and the same weapon damage.
Each barb will do one retaliate, one overpower and two hammers of the ancients and is assumed to be already in the action with all applied bonuses (frenzy stacks, battle rage, overpower/revenge bonuses).
Build #1. The crit/increase damage build:
Made up build, with realistic end game stats:
Build #2. Same skills (except for rend), different runes, ignoring the crit/increased damage bonus aspect.
Made up build, with realistic end game stats:
This crit build does over 5 times the damage of the pure attack/non-crit build. It also most likely heals for far more, despite the other build incorporating healing runes.
What does this tell us?
Basically, because of the way damage is calculated, you can literally double, triple, or more, all of your damage just by using the formulas to your advantage. At first glance it appears that optimal builds will revolve around abusing the formulas instead of actually choosing skills that have specific/niche uses/etc that compliment the character. It appears to add far less variety. I would like to hear what people have to say.
I still say Frenzy is competitive with the other 2 rage builders, but it is obviously the top choice if you plan on spending a lot of rage on high damage skills.
If the 2 builds were relatively equalized(including crit chance) and you accounted for the 400 attack in build 2, then battle rage should show a clean 100% increase to it's build.
It is intentionally biased. One build is based off of crits, the other is based off of having a high attack attribute. It does not change the fact that with the way damage is calculated, damage can literally be doubled, trippled, or more, just by choosing different runes on the same build. IMO this ability to literally multiply the total damage of everything you do with one skill/rune does not add variety to builds, it forces you to pick those skills/runes so that you can do as much damage as possible. Because of crits multiplying everything and "increases all damage" multiplying everything, it seems optimal builds will revolve around using these exponentially damage increasing formulas.
Rend was included in the calculations. The runes were changed to differentiate the crit build from a non-crit build. The Obsidian rune in Overpower will heal the barb. I did not say for how much, but considering it's purpose, and the results of the calculations from raw damage, it is possible that the damage version of Overpower will heal more then the healing version of Overpower just because of how insane the calcualtions are. Yes the example is extreme, intentionally.
Lol, that was a typo. It's fixed now. I litrally got home from work and posted this with the data I wrote down while watching the stream earlier today. I didn't check for typos because I took a nap xD. My bad.
I don't see how replacing 4% crit rate and 100% increased damage with Rend helps the test... If you don't include it in the second build you should drop it from the first. If it were only 4% crit rate sure, but not including 100% flat damage in both builds invalidates the test.
Now I see it there at the end.... anyway, I really disagree with trying to use completely separate builds to determine whether attack is better than crit damage. It just doesn't make sense. It isn't a real test.
If you want to compare the two you need to equalize all other factors.
Lets ignore builds and everything else for a moment, straight math.
Both: Equal Crit Chance, Equal Builds
Build 1: 500 Attack, 500% Crit Damage, Battle Rage 100%
250 Weapon DPS + Random 100% weapon damage skill = 250 damage
250 damage * 500% = 1250 non-crit
1250 * 500% = 6250 crit
6250 * 100% = 12500 Rage
Build 2: 900 Attack, 100% Crit Damage, Battle Rage 100%
250 damage * 900% = 2250 non-crit
2250 * 100% = 4500 crit
4500 * 100% = 9000 Rage
This is a much better comparison, and it shows that % crit damage is superior given an equal crit chance. It also makes the point that yes, you would be doing half damage without Battle Rage, making that skill essential.
Build 3: 100 Attack, 900% Crit Damage, Battle Rage 100%
250 damage * 100% = 500 non-crit
500 * 900% = 4500 crit
4500 * 100% = 9000 Rage
On the other hand, build 3 shows that focusing too heavily on +crit damage is not ideal either and with anything less than 100% crit rate would be worse than fully stacking attack. Even with 100% crit rate, a high crit damage build will not match a balanced build with the same 100% crit rate.
Everything above is consistent with your testing, and is how RPG's usually work when calculating damage.
You are right that Battle Rage seems essential to any Barb build. However, crit damage and attack are roughly equivalent.
The math where you compared builds is way off. The difference between rage and non-rage should simply be 100%, period. Not x6.
I would like to clarify that the point of removing most of the crit from the damage build was to simply make it a damage build, whereas the crit build abused the high crit% increasing runes.
At any rate, one thing I was trying to point out is just how ridiculous the formulas make skills like battle rage/wizard's familiar/whatever.
With crimson battle rage, and crimson frenzy in PVE, there is no other combination of skills that allows the barb to reach the raw damage.
The 500 attack/crit damage barb with these abilities will do 6,600 non-crit damage with a 100% weapon damage move, keep in mind that 60% crit rate is nearly automatic with certain PvE setups.
It would take 2640 attack attacks for any barb that doesn't get those two specific skills in order to do that much damage with a non-crit attack using a 100% weapon damage move.... When the crit is added, it's even more of a joke just how pointless it is to build anything aside from crit and "increases all damage by x%."
This is why I am stating that the formulas blizzard have chosen have already centralized the stats that need to be obtained to do damage. There is no reason to diverge from doing over tripple damage automatically by using these rune sets.
That is of course, unless they utilize the formulas (the thing this topic is about) that completely centralize the stats that builds need to obtain in order to do damage. Add crimson to battle rage/frezny, you suddenly do more than TRIPPLE your previous damage. What other sustainable skills does the barb have that allows any of the other billions of builds to compete with this? What I'm trying to say is that you must abuse the formulas to get damage, otherwise you wont.
Battle Rage isn't going to triple your damage. Please take a look at my math or run the numbers again. It will double your damage. That is it. Wherever you put battle rage into the equation it will never multiply end damage by more than 2.
I am not saying that isn't a lot, but overstating the difference by 100-500% is not helpful.
However, in the case of Frenzy it has competition. Bash has a rune that gives 80% with more up front damage. Cleave has much higher upfront damage and tons of AoE damage.
There are tradeoffs. Frenzy would obviously be the best choice of the 3 fury builders if you want to drop big earthquakes or other hard hitting abilities.
Battle Rage stands alone though, because you don't have to trade anything (besides other Battle Rage runes)to get the 100% bonus. It is up for 30 seconds, which may as well be forever in Diablo.
So Frenzy isn't really an issue. I don't see a solution to Battle Rage however. Every Barb will need it unless they have a special build that definitely requires 6 other skills.
Another point though, crit barb or not, they are going to want Battle Rage. That won't be a factor in the decision.
Crit damage and attack are still equal in value, given an equal crit chance. I am not sure I see much point in not having a high crit chance given some of the tradeoffs, if you are going pure damage. Otherwise, the utility may be enough to trade away 40% crit chance.
And this is a major problem, because every single build that doesn't use crimson battle rage will never match its (sustained) damage. This does not in any way promote diverse builds, which is the entire point of the design of the skill/rune system.
Besides, I am sure there are other skills that are just as insanely broken as the ones you have pointed out, and I can assure you, even post release there will be some more crazy combos and busted builds to sneak out. It's going to take time to get the game fully ironed out and equal across the board as far as exploits are concerned.
However, although it's interesting to point this out to us, why don't you rather post it on the official forums so Blizzard can give it some attention. Clearly it has aggravated you and you feel they are limiting your experience of the game. I am sure it would be better to approach them about it, instead of pointing it out to people who can do nothing about it, other than agree with you that the game isn't finished yet.
I haven't looked at the gems, but 10 Attack = 10% damage so I am sure the barb won't have a problem keeping up in the gem department.
The point isn't about damage, or broken builds at all really. It is about a skill that is so good that people would be gimped not to take it. There is no apparent tradeoff to not taking Battle Rage other than taking up 1 of 6 slots. There is a lot of utility to be found in many other skills that could replace battle rage, but nothing that even comes close to matching 100% more damage for 30 seconds(no CD).
Honestly all they need to do is add that CD, and maybe it already has one...
Apparently the un-runed Battle Rage adds 30% to end damage in the beta. The 100% will do the same.
And Mienta, Crimson Overpower and Alabaster Revenge, +47% crit chance. Revenge won't be up all that often, but probably often enough if you keep pressing the attack and let ranged mobs peck at you.
The crit damage has been overstated though. You are going to want a balance to get the highest possible dps.
If you didn't read previously, a barb with crimson frenzy and crimson battle rage does over triple his total damage. It's really just an example of how their power is just kinda gross... try to find a build that can even match a barb with those two skills. Is it even possible (I doubt it)? That's over centralizing if I ever saw it.
I agree with you in general, but in comparison the other classes that get similar abilities are on Cooldowns, targeted area effects(still on CD), etc.
And I don't believe anyone has called for a nerf exactly... just pointing out what appears to be what amounts to a near required skill for dps barbs. Albeit, point out a little too emphatically and with hyped up numbers...
Imagine a crit with this build with all possible damage modifiers activated!
Throw Weapon with Red rune = 462% weapon damage.
Battle Rage with Red rune = 100% more damage.
Max Bash with Blue rune = 80% more damage.
Wrath of the Berzerker with Red run = 75% more damage.
Brawler passive = 30% more damage when around 8 dudes.
No Escape passive = 100% more damage with Throw Weapon.
Get life back with fury generators + leach on gear.
Oh, and if you kill your target with that Throw Weapon (which you probably will if not a boss) you get that 20 fury back.
100+80+75+30 = 285% damage bonus on a Throw Weapon that does 924% weapon damage, so 924 * 2.85 = 2633.4% weapon damage for 20 fury?
If so... damn!
Edit: + = *
Just got done reading this whole thing and still not sure about a few things. I'd be willing to work out a worksheet (Excel sheet) with you guys to try and figure this out. It almost seems that there was, all be it moving, tipping point between the builds in one of the posts. I'd like to try a Barb out, in Beta hopefully, but if not, at launch. So I would like to have a good idea of skill/formulas at that point.
If any of you interested hit me up via forum PM, maybe do the other classes too.
P.S. These posts reminded me a little of EJ forums, with out the snootty rules lol