I was glad they didn't increase stashes after all, that would have made bm'ing everyone in duels even easier then it already is.
Kinda neat to see hydras and werebears get a boost, maybe there'll be some people trying new builds with them in pvp games now. It would have been really nice though to see sorb get toned, its lame now when you can bm someone and heal off their attacks.
Slightly more common hr's and dupe patch might be cool, depending how effective their dupe patch is.
Nerfed hammers and light sorcs...big deal. There is plenty of other builds that completely crush pvm. Pvm is easy, with the exception of these two nerfs it just got even easier this patch. Sure I hate pvm'ing with my fire sorc, but I love to pvp with it, its all a trade off, not every character is equal at everything. Soon as they announced the hydra change, I knew it was a pvp change, gl for anyone trying to solo hell with a hydra sorc:)
Would have been better overall imo if they just focused more on cracking down on illegal third party programs. Somehow they decided to ban people running 2+ legit copies of the game from one ip, but they still let the guy using 19 different mods go untouched. Seems a little backwards if you ask me.
Other thing seriously lacking is new gear. Would have been great to see some of the slightly underpowered builds get a boost from some new runewords designed for them, like fire druids or ma sins.
Otherwise though, I doubt I'll bother with it. Not worth the time just to play the same old game, thats gonna be ruined by the same old hacks, just becuase I might see a hydra sorc or werebear in a duel.
I'm somewhere in between because while I appreciate the fact that they have tried to fix some things, I'm also saddened because they seem to have ignored a lot of what ppl wanted. I wanted bots gone and content added, which i think a lot of other people also wanted. Something new to the game. Even if it didn't tie directly into d3, i still wanted something. The ubers weren't anything profound from a lore standpoint but it's still fun to do. The same applies to"Diablo walks the Earth...." It was just something new and different.
The thing i do like about it is that it comes with a ladder reset (I think).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A wizard is never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he early.
He arrives precisely when he means to."
"Losers always whine about their best, winners go home and Fvck the prom queen."
I voted for hate, and I still like the changes.
It's just everything surrounding the patch that made me really hate it..
I agree with you. It is not that the patch was so bad, it was just that we were all lead to believe it was going to be so much more. Starting it off by calling it a "content" patch. Followed by the "tell us what YOU want" thread. Then the multiple delays made us think that they were at least working on something big. I think a lot of people were let down because of Blizzards own hype with the patch.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
Patch v1.13 is just "ok" and changes a ten year old game very little. The only major changes seems to be making the game easier for some reason, but that is Blizzard's stance on all of thier games. Even though players may think they want a game to be easier, the player doesnt always know whats best, since quite a few of the people that play video games have never had an intelligent thought in thier lifetimes and don't understand the joys of a challenge. On the good side of things, this does mean that the ladder will reset and I may play Diablo 2 for a few weeks.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. That we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather."
It cleared up a bunch of gripes I had with the game, so I like it. Dupes, rune rarity, insta kill monsters, and failed build concepts can be retooled now thanks to respec. Not a big patch but certainly not half as bad as people like to make it seem.
i thought it was a good patch and i liked it, except like most times, THERE WAS TOO MUCH HYPE! ARGHJKADGFHJKLFGDLUHDFNJEWAIHLUASDHJKL!!!!!!
excuse my head rolling across the keyboard. but in all reality, this has happened with blizzard on numerous occasions. starcraft 2, for example. its been in development forever, and just got pushed back from the 4th quarter of 2009 to the first quarter 2010, which is probably not even going to happen cuz they dont even have a date for the beta release!
like this patch, it was announced in what, spring (im not too sure on the month) and every month bashiok would comment something like "duuuhhh we are still working on warcraft 3 patch".
i dont mind waiting a while for a good game, except if it isnt worth the wait, it kinda ruins it.
There's nothing in this patch that makes me think "I've GOTTA start playing Diablo now on a very often regular basis!". Period.
Now, whether or not this was SUPPOSE to be that kind of a patch is for debate.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Long, long time Diablo fan; short, short time with DiabloFans. USEast D2 Ladder/1.13 Beta: Accnt = ChezPizmo USEast WCIII Ladder: Accnt = TeeheeSprinkles A cool, unrelated video; "Dude Bids 420 on Price is Right" ("420, Bob") "I'm nasty, I'm old and a little bit ornery; I look like Patrick Stewart and sound like Sean Connery." Patch 1.13 = (click here)
I always complained about the iron maiden curse in chaos sanctuary (poor mercenaries), but now that it's going away I'm starting to think I'll miss it. Chaos sanctuary's going to be pretty boring now that you won't have to tele around like crazy repositioning your mercs
Whhhaat? Who would have ever thought people wanting changes like weakening monster immunities, increasing drops, nerfing monsters, and respecs, amongst other things to make the game easier, could ever possible make things boring?
weakening monster immunities: i don't think ANYONE would complain if this was implemente. ever tried playing SP in hell with a sorceress, without any rushing or muling?try it, and then get back to me on immunities.
Yeah, I've done it. Try dual elements and an item on switch with lower res charges. Its not very hard.
increasing drops: riiight, the drop rates are fine right now, that's why the HR in bnet are all legit.
Dupings the problem, not item rarity. If it wasn't for duping power players might have 3 decked out characters instead of 3 accounts full. Imagine not being able to find a decked out baal runner to hold your hand through baal runs whenever you wanted...people might actually have to play and pay attention. Imagine not getting laughed at in duel games when you join with a characters who's not a total pimp.
those things don't even belong in the same category, your post doesn't make sense.
Changes that make the game easier = make the game boring. All those things make the game easier in some way. I'm not sure I'm able to simplify it anymore, but I hope that helps:)
I voted hate it, because there was no content added to the game, and very very limited balancing. I mean I don't even think they added any loot aside from the ingredients for the respec. And there are still multiple immunities on monsters in hell, making several types of builds illogical.
I always complained about the iron maiden curse in chaos sanctuary (poor mercenaries), but now that it's going away I'm starting to think I'll miss it. Chaos sanctuary's going to be pretty boring now that you won't have to tele around like crazy repositioning your mercs
Don't use a merc at all and you WILL have to tele a lot. The game gets 10 times harder without merc, especially in Classic(where mercs are weak) with weaker items.
nerfing monsters: this was a stupid move on blizzard's part.
Well, insta deaths are not fun with max resists. Gloams have bugged damage, so it is nice if they fixed it.
In Classic where you can't get much over 75 res and no absorbtion you pretty much have to skip Plains of Despair every time there are Burning Souls spawned. Or you can clear it but it is much more dangerous(in HC not worth the trouble) and slower than just creating a new game.
Yeah, I've done it. Try dual elements and an item on switch with lower res charges. Its not very hard.
Yeah the game is easy, immunities are not hard they are ANNOYING. They force you to build your class in certain ways or you will have to skip 1/3 of the monsters.
I had a lot more fun playing sorc when there wasn't immunities.
And Iron Maiden: It is better that it's gone than if it is in game but overpowered. It used to be okay before 1.10 you didn't get instagibbed, you had to be cautios but you didn't die on 1 hit. Don't know what they messed up with it in 1.10.
I voted in between; especially now knowing that it will not be the last patch I don't feel as upset. Still they made it seem to be a lot more than it turned out to be...so I'm not exactly happy about that.
Yeah the game is easy, immunities are not hard they are ANNOYING. They force you to build your class in certain ways or you will have to skip 1/3 of the monsters.
I don't understand what people want. Everyone complains hammerdins are basically sorcs nothing resists so they are overpowered, but then turn around and complain sorcs blow because of immunities.
They aren't forcing you to build your class a certain way, they simply limit what specific builds can do. When was the last time you've seen anyone mf'ing with an foh'er? Never. It doesn't mean foh'er suck, they just aren't good at mf'ing, but they have other uses.
Some classes are better then others at certain things. Summoners are great at walking the game untwinked, auradins can't do it. Should the game be redesigned so auradins can do it as well, or perhaps some builds just suck at some things, but are good for others?
If nothing was immune, what incentive would there be to play a necro spitting out 7-8k bone spears when you could be a sorc spitting out 35k fireballs?
those things don't even belong in the same category, your post doesn't make sense.
MF-ing isn't supposed to be the main focus of any of your characters, blizzard didn't make any classe with MF in mind, so what you're saying doesn't make any sense
Two for two apparently:)
Uh...mf isn't supposed to be the focus of any of your characters? I've had characters every ladder who I specced out and geared for nothing other then specific mf runs. Every halfway decent player I've ever played has run mf characters...how else are you supposed to get gear?
Likewise, I've had characters I made just for pvp, a character for ubering, a character for rushing, and characters that weren't really good for anything but fun to screw around with. I've even made characters just to walk untwinked for giggles that I erased after I beat hell baal with. I've made characters just to test things on to see if it worked, or remade existing characters to tweak them to be a little better. All my characters have some sort of role or focus. Saying mf shouldnt be the focus of any character is just wrong.
My point was, not all builds are, or should, be equal at all things. Single ele sorcs are better if you want to pvp with them, if you play in groups all the time and don't care if you can't kill everything, or if you have a pimped out merc. Dual/tri ele are better if you play alone and are more concerned about immunities. If it bothers you that much why not just spec your character out to better suit your playstyle?
Just curious, but if you could suggest some ways to make the game more challenging, what would it be? Its already so easy if you take the time to learn how things work that I'd honestly hate to see any changes to make things even easier. The recent removal of iron maiden and nerfing of some monster damage upsets me:(
i already said that making the game easier was a dumb move. i agree, if they're going change the difficulty, make it harder, not easier.
I don't get it. Let's remove immunities, but not make the game easier...hrmm...
what i meant was: you can't say that every class has its strengths and the sorc's strength is MFing, because when blizz made the class, they weren't thinking "yeah, this one is gonna be best at MF". no, they wanted to make a class that could finish the game (N,NM and H) solo. just like every other class. and playing hell solo with a sorc is frustrating because of full immunes, you end up skipping lots of sections, or spend an hour clearing a dungeon. so i'd just like them to make monsters who are highly resistant to elements, instead of 100% immune. is that too much to ask?
It isn't about class, its about the build. I already told you how you could beat the game solo with a sorc. It's doable, and its not that hard. Try a cl/orb hybrid, and static the bosses. Between 2 elements, static, teleport and a merc, your pretty much set to do all the pvm you want.
Theres reasons for going single element, and reasons for going multi. Its quite foolish to go single element and then complain about your weakness, when the obvious solution to sidestep that weakness is to go multi element.
Its like this for every class. Look at paladins. There's pure smiters, pure foh'ers, and all kinds of smite/foh hybrids. How is this any different then pure light sorcs, pure ice sorcs, and ice/light hybrids? The foh/smite hybrid isn't going to be as good at smiting as a pure smiter, or as good at foh as a pure foh'er, but they make up for it in versatility, sorcs are the same concept.
I don't get it. Let's remove immunities, but not make the game easier...hrmm...
Immunities were just a quick fix to make a more challenging game that just made a lot builds impossible. I think we should have a more creative way that doesn't limit builds (and thus choice, strategy, and whatever else that comes with that) that makes the game more challenging. As for what it could be, I have no idea. Full immunities are completely unfair, however. High resistances, okay, I'm fine with that. Immunities? No.
Although...
I believe you have a very legitimate point here that I didn't consider:
I don't understand what people want. Everyone complains hammerdins are basically sorcs nothing resists so they are overpowered, but then turn around and complain sorcs blow because of immunities.
Theres nothing immune to a specific class. Every class has potential to do multiple damage types. You can make a narrow build that does a lot of damage focused on one type, or a hybrid that does less damage but multiple types. How is that not fair?
Its not making builds impossible, its making builds not all be able to do everything, as it should be. I'd prefer a cl/orb sorc for soloing the game, but if I was making a character for pvp or just to tele/mf a certain boss over and over I'd rather go pure ice or pure lightning for a higher max damage.
If there was a monster flag that said "IMMUNE SORC," I'd totally agree, thats not fair. However, thats definately not the case, so my best advice to you is to learn the game better, try some new builds, and experiment with things.
Sorcs are very bad if you want 2 viable elements. Why should they be forced to lower power compared to the other classes? The synergies and skilltrees, not only on the Sorceress but on all classes, encourages focus on one skill. Going against that will result in a tremendously reduced damage output (for any class) compared to pure builds. No other class must play hybrid to avoid immunities, how is that fair? The only thing that would attract people to the Sorc would be Teleport, but Enigma ruined that.
Well since this guys talking about running untwinked SP, lets have a race. You run a barb untwinked sp through all 3 difficulties and I'll run an untwinked dual ele sorc, betcha I'll get done first.
Dual eles arent that bad. 26 points gets you level 20 orb and a point in cold mastery, which is good enough for pvm, and leaves plenty of points to get a viable fire or light attack. Yeah you don't have a single attack thats hard as a pure element, but you sidestep their huge weakness in pvm. Seems fair to me. Smite/foh hybrids don't smite hard as a smiter or foh hard as an foh'er, do they suck?
and you keep talking about immunities like taking them out would make monsters really susceptible to elements. just make them 99% resistant instead of 100%.
You can already get this effect. Keep some extra orbs/staffs that give you +skills to spells of elements you don't have hard points invested in. Blasting away with a wimpy ice bolts to something weak vs ice would yield better results then fireballing something 99% immune to fire.
i don't want to do any of that, i just want my builds to do one thing: to finish hell in SP without any equipment muled from other characters. to me that's the primary way the game is supposed to be played, and if there are (reasonable) builds that can't do that, then that's a mistake, as far as i'm concerned.
You don't want to learn the game, you don't want to experiment, you don't want to try new things...you just want the game to change to suit you...that is a rather narrow minded view of this game. Learning, experimenting, and building your character(s) are some of the core values of rpgs...why not just play a shooter if you refuse to do any of these things?
oh, ok, i see...so if i don't want to PvP or rush the game or farm the game over and over to MF, then i'm not playing it right.....if i just want to solo the game and finish hell untwinked (the way it's supposed to be played, by the way, at least when it comes to muling) without having to skip lots of monsters, then i should just play an FPS...
I didn't say that. Single player untwinked is one of many ways to play the game. Certain builds are better at it then others, just like certain builds are better at pvp, better for killing bosses, or better for farming certain areas. There is no one way its supposed to be played, theres many ways to play it, so just make a build that is good for your style and enjoy.
If it was supposed to be played single player untwinked though, why does battle.net exist?
yeah, sure, the sorc might finish first, if you skip a ton of content. try doing it using teleport only to avoid getting killed, not to skip areas.
How would I beat any bosses untwinked if I tele'd past everything and skipped everything? Stop ignoring the fact, a dual ele sorc with a merc can kill everything.
And you just happen to pick the worst possible class you can use when untwinked...
So...lets get this straight. Dual ele sorcs blow. Barbs are worse at something then a dual ele sorc. Does that make barbs do something even worse then blow, or just make different characters excel in different areas?
Let's say Lightning Javazon and Lightning/*insert element* Sorceress. The Javazon will have waaay higher lightning damage and will be able to deal with lightning immunes easily.
There's trade offs for either class. Yeah sure, charged strike could outdamage lightning for raw damage, but its melee range to use. Also, your backup to deal with light immunes would be what you 250 damage melee hit, and you'd have to worry about attack rating on top of things. Backup for the sorc on the other hand might be a 350 damage ice orb or a few thousand damage fire attack.(I'm assuming crappy gear with these estimates but keep in mind sorc damage is going to go up a lot faster from +skills since you boost both the spell and its mastery, where as zon melee damage isnt going to go up much at all)
Anyways the point is, javazon would have some advantages and disadvantages in comparison to the sorc. I noticed you didn't say barbs suck, you said they are the worst to play untwinked. I'm assuming this was becuase you know barbs are total badasses in some circumstances, as are single ele sorcs, dual ele, and javazons.
Of course untwinked SP isn't the only way to play, but even you have to admit that, in all likelyhood, it was the main mode of play that blizz had in mind when they made D2.
Nope, the game had grouping, hostile, and multiplay options from the day it was released. I think the main mode of play they had in mind was whatever you felt like doing.
And you also have to agree that the probability of findind a weapon with a fairly-good-level offensive spell that you don't have in your skill set OR a weapon with (good level) LowerRes are quite low (if you play untwinked SP).
Random orbs or staffs with +skils are a dime a dozen. You can buy them in shops, and its really not all that uncommon to find one that gives +1 or +2 to sorc skills as well as + to another spell you want to use, like fb or lightning.
As far as lower res charges, I also think they spawn in shops as well but I don't remember for sure, its been a while since I had to look for one, but considering how rare some items in this game are they aren't rare at all. I'd fully expect to find a lower res charge item a lot faster then I could get a pul rune, and puls arent even that rare.
So, immunes forces most sorc build to skip lots of areas with teleport, or to grind a lot and farm a lot to find those items with the spells you need. and i just don't think that's good. You might disagree, that's completely fair, but you could at least see the issue that it represents to people who like to play untwinked SP sorcs (few and far between they might be).
You have to pretty much replay areas no matter what build you make, or you'd just end up a crappily geared level 65 in hell getting pwned hard by anything that looks your way. Theres very few builds that could pull it off.
Barbs just suck Any physical damage character sucks (damage wise) unless you have enough money to buy a good weapon and twink it.
Barbs just suck...that actually made me chuckle.
Barbs suck untwinked...single ele sorcs suck untwinked.
Dual ele mages untwinked are much more viable then untwinked barbs or single ele sorcs.
Twinked dual ele sorcs aren't as good in most situations compared to twinked single ele sorc or twinked barb.
It all seems fair to me.
Lightning Fury is ranged and always hits. You only need Charged Strike for bosses.
Yeah, and static would be the equalizer to make up for lower damage at bosses.
But you are welcome to prove your point. Just give me a hybrid Sorceress skill build with items a single player character is likely to have. A little better than average is ok. I will type it into the Diablo Exile calculator and we will see how effective it will be. I will then do the same thing with a Lightning Javazon.
26 points into ice tree, 20 orb, 1 mastery, 5 pre-reqs
1 into firetree, 1 for warmth
64 into lightning tree, 1 charged bolt, 1 static, 1telek, 1 teleport, 20 for lightning/chainlightning/mastery
91 points total.
Here's the jav build I'll use just to test it out for ya, but in reality you'd probably put more in passives.
5 into passives, 1 into critical, penetrate, dodge, avoid, and evade
86 into javs, 20 into power strike, cs, and lf, 3 into lightning strike, 3 into pre-reqs.
91 points total.
I'll just plug in +8 all skills for both, seems like a reasonable number for garbage gear.
Here's what I get...
sorc damage
lightning - 12-6097
chain lightning 8-3497, 10 hits
orb damage, 384-403, -60% res from cold mastery, freezes targets
teleport and static
javazon damage
charged strike, 8 bolts, 7-3693
lightning fury, 29 bolts, 1-1564
dodging, critical, and attack rating bonus
a melee hit the largely depends upon attack rating, and having a good weapon, which is unlikely untwinked
Theres the breakdown, where exactly are zons so badass it makes a dual ele sorc with comprable gear worthless? Keep in mind, if you wanted to get a valk, or put more then 1 into each passive, it would lower your damage.
You are forgetting the resistance of enemies in Hell. No enemy is resistant against physical damage (except for champs). AR is not a problem because Power Strike gives plenty.
Pssst...theres immune physical. Besides what would you actually melee for? Like 200 a hit with a crappy weapon? Thats not even as much as you merc would be doing, and I'd much rather have a 400 damage orb and a merc, then a 200 damage melee hit and a merc.
When this sorc build is obviously putting up numbers capable of playing through the game solo untwinked, should a player who can't figure out how to do it maybe have to learn and adjust, or should the game just be changed to suit him?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Kinda neat to see hydras and werebears get a boost, maybe there'll be some people trying new builds with them in pvp games now. It would have been really nice though to see sorb get toned, its lame now when you can bm someone and heal off their attacks.
Slightly more common hr's and dupe patch might be cool, depending how effective their dupe patch is.
Nerfed hammers and light sorcs...big deal. There is plenty of other builds that completely crush pvm. Pvm is easy, with the exception of these two nerfs it just got even easier this patch. Sure I hate pvm'ing with my fire sorc, but I love to pvp with it, its all a trade off, not every character is equal at everything. Soon as they announced the hydra change, I knew it was a pvp change, gl for anyone trying to solo hell with a hydra sorc:)
Would have been better overall imo if they just focused more on cracking down on illegal third party programs. Somehow they decided to ban people running 2+ legit copies of the game from one ip, but they still let the guy using 19 different mods go untouched. Seems a little backwards if you ask me.
Other thing seriously lacking is new gear. Would have been great to see some of the slightly underpowered builds get a boost from some new runewords designed for them, like fire druids or ma sins.
Otherwise though, I doubt I'll bother with it. Not worth the time just to play the same old game, thats gonna be ruined by the same old hacks, just becuase I might see a hydra sorc or werebear in a duel.
The thing i do like about it is that it comes with a ladder reset (I think).
"Losers always whine about their best, winners go home and Fvck the prom queen."
I agree with you. It is not that the patch was so bad, it was just that we were all lead to believe it was going to be so much more. Starting it off by calling it a "content" patch. Followed by the "tell us what YOU want" thread. Then the multiple delays made us think that they were at least working on something big. I think a lot of people were let down because of Blizzards own hype with the patch.
Find any Diablo news? Contact me or anyone else on the News team
Fuck you, I'm a dragon.
excuse my head rolling across the keyboard. but in all reality, this has happened with blizzard on numerous occasions. starcraft 2, for example. its been in development forever, and just got pushed back from the 4th quarter of 2009 to the first quarter 2010, which is probably not even going to happen cuz they dont even have a date for the beta release!
like this patch, it was announced in what, spring (im not too sure on the month) and every month bashiok would comment something like "duuuhhh we are still working on warcraft 3 patch".
i dont mind waiting a while for a good game, except if it isnt worth the wait, it kinda ruins it.
Now, whether or not this was SUPPOSE to be that kind of a patch is for debate.
USEast D2 Ladder/1.13 Beta: Accnt = ChezPizmo
USEast WCIII Ladder: Accnt = TeeheeSprinkles
A cool, unrelated video; "Dude Bids 420 on Price is Right" ("420, Bob")
"I'm nasty, I'm old and a little bit ornery; I look like Patrick Stewart and sound like Sean Connery."
Patch 1.13 = (click here)
Whhhaat? Who would have ever thought people wanting changes like weakening monster immunities, increasing drops, nerfing monsters, and respecs, amongst other things to make the game easier, could ever possible make things boring?
Yeah, I've done it. Try dual elements and an item on switch with lower res charges. Its not very hard.
Dupings the problem, not item rarity. If it wasn't for duping power players might have 3 decked out characters instead of 3 accounts full. Imagine not being able to find a decked out baal runner to hold your hand through baal runs whenever you wanted...people might actually have to play and pay attention. Imagine not getting laughed at in duel games when you join with a characters who's not a total pimp.
Changes that make the game easier = make the game boring. All those things make the game easier in some way. I'm not sure I'm able to simplify it anymore, but I hope that helps:)
Well, insta deaths are not fun with max resists. Gloams have bugged damage, so it is nice if they fixed it.
In Classic where you can't get much over 75 res and no absorbtion you pretty much have to skip Plains of Despair every time there are Burning Souls spawned. Or you can clear it but it is much more dangerous(in HC not worth the trouble) and slower than just creating a new game.
Yeah the game is easy, immunities are not hard they are ANNOYING. They force you to build your class in certain ways or you will have to skip 1/3 of the monsters.
I had a lot more fun playing sorc when there wasn't immunities.
And Iron Maiden: It is better that it's gone than if it is in game but overpowered. It used to be okay before 1.10 you didn't get instagibbed, you had to be cautios but you didn't die on 1 hit. Don't know what they messed up with it in 1.10.
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
I don't understand what people want. Everyone complains hammerdins are basically sorcs nothing resists so they are overpowered, but then turn around and complain sorcs blow because of immunities.
They aren't forcing you to build your class a certain way, they simply limit what specific builds can do. When was the last time you've seen anyone mf'ing with an foh'er? Never. It doesn't mean foh'er suck, they just aren't good at mf'ing, but they have other uses.
Some classes are better then others at certain things. Summoners are great at walking the game untwinked, auradins can't do it. Should the game be redesigned so auradins can do it as well, or perhaps some builds just suck at some things, but are good for others?
If nothing was immune, what incentive would there be to play a necro spitting out 7-8k bone spears when you could be a sorc spitting out 35k fireballs?
Two for two apparently:)
Uh...mf isn't supposed to be the focus of any of your characters? I've had characters every ladder who I specced out and geared for nothing other then specific mf runs. Every halfway decent player I've ever played has run mf characters...how else are you supposed to get gear?
Likewise, I've had characters I made just for pvp, a character for ubering, a character for rushing, and characters that weren't really good for anything but fun to screw around with. I've even made characters just to walk untwinked for giggles that I erased after I beat hell baal with. I've made characters just to test things on to see if it worked, or remade existing characters to tweak them to be a little better. All my characters have some sort of role or focus. Saying mf shouldnt be the focus of any character is just wrong.
My point was, not all builds are, or should, be equal at all things. Single ele sorcs are better if you want to pvp with them, if you play in groups all the time and don't care if you can't kill everything, or if you have a pimped out merc. Dual/tri ele are better if you play alone and are more concerned about immunities. If it bothers you that much why not just spec your character out to better suit your playstyle?
Just curious, but if you could suggest some ways to make the game more challenging, what would it be? Its already so easy if you take the time to learn how things work that I'd honestly hate to see any changes to make things even easier. The recent removal of iron maiden and nerfing of some monster damage upsets me:(
I don't get it. Let's remove immunities, but not make the game easier...hrmm...
It isn't about class, its about the build. I already told you how you could beat the game solo with a sorc. It's doable, and its not that hard. Try a cl/orb hybrid, and static the bosses. Between 2 elements, static, teleport and a merc, your pretty much set to do all the pvm you want.
Theres reasons for going single element, and reasons for going multi. Its quite foolish to go single element and then complain about your weakness, when the obvious solution to sidestep that weakness is to go multi element.
Its like this for every class. Look at paladins. There's pure smiters, pure foh'ers, and all kinds of smite/foh hybrids. How is this any different then pure light sorcs, pure ice sorcs, and ice/light hybrids? The foh/smite hybrid isn't going to be as good at smiting as a pure smiter, or as good at foh as a pure foh'er, but they make up for it in versatility, sorcs are the same concept.
Immunities were just a quick fix to make a more challenging game that just made a lot builds impossible. I think we should have a more creative way that doesn't limit builds (and thus choice, strategy, and whatever else that comes with that) that makes the game more challenging. As for what it could be, I have no idea. Full immunities are completely unfair, however. High resistances, okay, I'm fine with that. Immunities? No.
Although...
I believe you have a very legitimate point here that I didn't consider:
Props for that.
Its not making builds impossible, its making builds not all be able to do everything, as it should be. I'd prefer a cl/orb sorc for soloing the game, but if I was making a character for pvp or just to tele/mf a certain boss over and over I'd rather go pure ice or pure lightning for a higher max damage.
If there was a monster flag that said "IMMUNE SORC," I'd totally agree, thats not fair. However, thats definately not the case, so my best advice to you is to learn the game better, try some new builds, and experiment with things.
Well since this guys talking about running untwinked SP, lets have a race. You run a barb untwinked sp through all 3 difficulties and I'll run an untwinked dual ele sorc, betcha I'll get done first.
Dual eles arent that bad. 26 points gets you level 20 orb and a point in cold mastery, which is good enough for pvm, and leaves plenty of points to get a viable fire or light attack. Yeah you don't have a single attack thats hard as a pure element, but you sidestep their huge weakness in pvm. Seems fair to me. Smite/foh hybrids don't smite hard as a smiter or foh hard as an foh'er, do they suck?
You can already get this effect. Keep some extra orbs/staffs that give you +skills to spells of elements you don't have hard points invested in. Blasting away with a wimpy ice bolts to something weak vs ice would yield better results then fireballing something 99% immune to fire.
You don't want to learn the game, you don't want to experiment, you don't want to try new things...you just want the game to change to suit you...that is a rather narrow minded view of this game. Learning, experimenting, and building your character(s) are some of the core values of rpgs...why not just play a shooter if you refuse to do any of these things?
I didn't say that. Single player untwinked is one of many ways to play the game. Certain builds are better at it then others, just like certain builds are better at pvp, better for killing bosses, or better for farming certain areas. There is no one way its supposed to be played, theres many ways to play it, so just make a build that is good for your style and enjoy.
If it was supposed to be played single player untwinked though, why does battle.net exist?
How would I beat any bosses untwinked if I tele'd past everything and skipped everything? Stop ignoring the fact, a dual ele sorc with a merc can kill everything.
So...lets get this straight. Dual ele sorcs blow. Barbs are worse at something then a dual ele sorc. Does that make barbs do something even worse then blow, or just make different characters excel in different areas?
There's trade offs for either class. Yeah sure, charged strike could outdamage lightning for raw damage, but its melee range to use. Also, your backup to deal with light immunes would be what you 250 damage melee hit, and you'd have to worry about attack rating on top of things. Backup for the sorc on the other hand might be a 350 damage ice orb or a few thousand damage fire attack.(I'm assuming crappy gear with these estimates but keep in mind sorc damage is going to go up a lot faster from +skills since you boost both the spell and its mastery, where as zon melee damage isnt going to go up much at all)
Anyways the point is, javazon would have some advantages and disadvantages in comparison to the sorc. I noticed you didn't say barbs suck, you said they are the worst to play untwinked. I'm assuming this was becuase you know barbs are total badasses in some circumstances, as are single ele sorcs, dual ele, and javazons.
Nope, the game had grouping, hostile, and multiplay options from the day it was released. I think the main mode of play they had in mind was whatever you felt like doing.
Random orbs or staffs with +skils are a dime a dozen. You can buy them in shops, and its really not all that uncommon to find one that gives +1 or +2 to sorc skills as well as + to another spell you want to use, like fb or lightning.
As far as lower res charges, I also think they spawn in shops as well but I don't remember for sure, its been a while since I had to look for one, but considering how rare some items in this game are they aren't rare at all. I'd fully expect to find a lower res charge item a lot faster then I could get a pul rune, and puls arent even that rare.
You have to pretty much replay areas no matter what build you make, or you'd just end up a crappily geared level 65 in hell getting pwned hard by anything that looks your way. Theres very few builds that could pull it off.
Barbs just suck...that actually made me chuckle.
Barbs suck untwinked...single ele sorcs suck untwinked.
Dual ele mages untwinked are much more viable then untwinked barbs or single ele sorcs.
Twinked dual ele sorcs aren't as good in most situations compared to twinked single ele sorc or twinked barb.
It all seems fair to me.
Yeah, and static would be the equalizer to make up for lower damage at bosses.
26 points into ice tree, 20 orb, 1 mastery, 5 pre-reqs
1 into firetree, 1 for warmth
64 into lightning tree, 1 charged bolt, 1 static, 1telek, 1 teleport, 20 for lightning/chainlightning/mastery
91 points total.
Here's the jav build I'll use just to test it out for ya, but in reality you'd probably put more in passives.
5 into passives, 1 into critical, penetrate, dodge, avoid, and evade
86 into javs, 20 into power strike, cs, and lf, 3 into lightning strike, 3 into pre-reqs.
91 points total.
I'll just plug in +8 all skills for both, seems like a reasonable number for garbage gear.
Here's what I get...
sorc damage
lightning - 12-6097
chain lightning 8-3497, 10 hits
orb damage, 384-403, -60% res from cold mastery, freezes targets
teleport and static
javazon damage
charged strike, 8 bolts, 7-3693
lightning fury, 29 bolts, 1-1564
dodging, critical, and attack rating bonus
a melee hit the largely depends upon attack rating, and having a good weapon, which is unlikely untwinked
Theres the breakdown, where exactly are zons so badass it makes a dual ele sorc with comprable gear worthless? Keep in mind, if you wanted to get a valk, or put more then 1 into each passive, it would lower your damage.
Pssst...theres immune physical. Besides what would you actually melee for? Like 200 a hit with a crappy weapon? Thats not even as much as you merc would be doing, and I'd much rather have a 400 damage orb and a merc, then a 200 damage melee hit and a merc.
When this sorc build is obviously putting up numbers capable of playing through the game solo untwinked, should a player who can't figure out how to do it maybe have to learn and adjust, or should the game just be changed to suit him?