Why is it that when you enter the tower of Travincal, everything seems to be devoted wholely to torture? Wasn't it at some point a holy temple of Zakarum? I mean, I realize Mephisto corrupted everthing, but the very structures of Travincal, all changed? All that gold and everything? Just seems odd to me.
Indeed it was. But since Mephisto quickly got a hold of everyone in the Zakarum church except the high priest, it would have been quite easy for him to redecorate the place.
Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if the Zakarum had quite a lot of torturing tools before Mephisto's takeover as well.
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The Hand of the Zakarum, were renowned for the converting of other to their religion. I imagine it might even have been reminescient of the Spanish Inquisition. Thus a wide assortment of various torture devices would have been redily available to them. Also if prayer and scripture won't exorcise a demon from someone's body you gotta step up your methods, and purify the body.
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-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
The Hand of the Zakarum, were renowned for the converting of other to their religion. I imagine it might even have been reminescient of the Spanish Inquisition. Thus a wide assortment of various torture devices would have been redily available to them. Also if prayer and scripture won't exorcise a demon from someone's body you gotta step up your methods, and purify the body.
if we follow the books you are 100% correct. However i declare the books as heretical.... the real canon is in the game where the zakarum church is holy and not evil.
Blizzard have stated book lore oversees game lore. Which confuses some people. But Blizzard has the right to do that.
They are a holy Order, I never hinted at or said they were evil, so I don't know where you got that from. As a holy order they would see it as their duty to eradicate that which is not holy, such as demons and heathens. Either by conversion or death. Well it's death for the demons without question.
That does not make one evil though, misguided maybe, but not evil, as the goal of the Zakarum (before Mephisto tainted it) was in the service of the High Heavens. But their methods were definitely a little harse.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
ya the zakuram church has always been good until mephisto i think. and also in the game manual for the paladin it says that the zakuram church did eradicate all evil in the world or tried too. so ya they could had have torture devices with people who were possessed. or something along the lines. note some stuff i said had info from elfen above.
Here are some deviced used by the Holy Order in the manga Berserk, who are modeled on The Catholic Inquisitions. The devices are used to purge people of their sins, or exorcise demons or just as punishment for crimes, much like Vlad Tepes and his brutl impaling of criminals, or the Romans and their crucifixons.
(one has a bit of nudity so I posted links instead of images, didn't want to get anyone in trouble with a teacher/parent.)
I don't think it is out of the question that the Zakarum did similar things. But I think most Paladins fall more into the role of a travelling priest of monk, preaching the ways of the Zakarum, as opposed to the strict, "be converted or die" Inquisitor, but like I said, there would bound to be a few like that.
Taken from the Paladin History in the manual/om Arreat Summit
During the mid-twelfth century, after the Church of Zakarum had gained prominence in the East, the Church decreed that the visions of Akarat would be spread throughout the known world in order to redeem the masses. Thus, the Church selected a group of its most charismatic and devoted priests and sent them on a mission to proselytize the people of the West.
Unfortunately, the Church had not prepared these men for the rigors of travel nor the hazards of the world. The priests who survived their missions recounted tales of harsh weather, inadequate supplies, attacks from bandits and even encounters with horrible monsters. To ensure the success of future missions, the Church set about training holy warriors, Paladins, to accompany and safeguard their missionaries. In practice, these "Protectors of the Word" proved to be more successful at converting the native peoples than the Priests that they were assigned to defend. Impressing the locals with daring deeds, powerful weapons, and martial prowess was far more convincing than the condemnations of a soft-spoken monk. However, once the Word had been spread to every major city of the West, the "Protectors of the Word" faded from public view.
Some decades later, Paladins were again called into service. During the height of the Time of Troubles, the Church commenced a second campaign of conversion. This time, however, the inconvincible were deemed evil. The Zakarum Inquisition spread through the lands like a tempest, laying waste to all suspected of demonic possession or corruption. Leading this crusade was a new generation of Paladins, known as the "Hand of Zakarum." These cavaliers of righteousness swept through the lands, expunging the taint of demonic contamination wherever they found it.
In the midst of this bloody crusade, a rebellion arose within the ranks of the Paladins of Zakarum. The rebels condemned the methods of the Inquisition, proclaiming that the new Order of Paladins should protect the innocent, and that the evil corruption was rooted in their forebear's failure. They resolved to fight the true source of corruption, the Three Prime Evils - Diablo, Baal and Mephisto. And so, these rebellious Paladins left their Zakarum brethren and ventured west.
Second to last paragraph sounds exactly like what we have been talking about.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
ugh, things like that 'Holy Order' is what makes me hate religion so much. I don't want to get into a debate about religion, but I just wanted to note about the seemingly purposeful plot turn Blizzard chose to associate the Lord of Hatred with the Zakarum Church. I know Terror and Destruction can just as easily be associated with religion, but I don't want to terrorise or destroy religion, I just hate them. (Not talking about all religions, just the fanatic ones).
Still I like how completely driven they are. SO much so they resort to the most brutal of tactics in order to get the results they want. Makes them seem more interesting.
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-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
I don't like the beliefs of the Jihadist. I'm more into the Catholic Holy Order, or a fictional one somewhat based on it, or one that shares similar doctorines.
The Religion of the Zakarum is very interesting, and from the history text dump I provided earlier, it mentions they did at one point act like the Catholic Inquisitions, sure this is not the greatest way to act, but it is interesting, Paladins are always these shining warriors of light, defenders of truth and justice, protectors of the weak and helpless. It is nice to see their darkr side for a change, But not the Anti-Paladin (Black Knight) darker side, as that is the complete polar opposite.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
You mean like: "hey I'm blowing myself up for my religion, so I can get 70 raisins... um I mean virgins!" Or did you mean something else??
I'm not sure what you mean lol.
Hey, yeah. The Zakarum is a whole wiki page thats on my list of things to do lol. I'll gather all the info from the books and manuals and everything, and maybe attempt to analyse them but I probably wouldn't be very good at that. You'd be good at it though, Elfen.
I might look into but as for info on their actual doctorine, it's hard t ocome by if at all. We know that a sub class of Paladins enforce that doctorine with brutal and ruthless efficiency, and have an almost fanactical devotion to their cause.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
There are small references to them in each novel, with a bigger one regarding Buyard Cholik in The Black Road. I have no doubt that Solomir has notes on all of these and could put them together fairly easily. Then again, I do have (most) of the books on the computer too, so I can use the ctrl+f function
Actually, it won't be that hard to pull all the info together. I'll do it soon. It'll be good to get a general idea of how they behave and what resemblence they have to 'real-world' religions. I mean, they obviously aren't Bhuddist Monks lol.
Wait wait wait, I just realised something... are the Zakarum against witches/mages? They don't seem to be, or atleast not yet. Real world religious fanatics were definitely against witchcraft, and that seems to be the main difference between them and the Zakarum. Adria the Witch wasn't really welcomed in town, but they didn't try and hang her (though that could just be because they had no real law anymore). In the opening cinematic there are people that were hung, but that seems to have just been from the madness of King Leoric.
Although, on the other hand, the Zakarum came into Kurast and took over the Old Religion, which was much more magic-based, and deemed them unholy and full of blasphemy.
The Zakarum's main temple may have been corrupted, but they have spread far and wide so much that they can easily just make a new home-base with new leaders, probably located in Westmarch.
What does that mean they will do now though? Will they attack the rest of the mage clans, or let them be? (If they haven't already, I can't quite recall how they feel towards mages/witches still).
Wait wait wait, I just realised something... are the Zakarum against witches/mages? They don't seem to be, or atleast not yet. Real world religious fanatics were definitely against witchcraft, and that seems to be the main difference between them and the Zakarum.
In our world, witchcraft, and by enlarge magic, was perceived to be the work of the Devil, thus it was deemed evil. Where as in Sanctuary, the Paladins themselves cast magic, albeit more divine and clerical, than the mage clans and the necromancers.
So no I don't think they perceive magic, and any who use it to be evil. They are probably more against people for the beliefs, than their practices. Much like the Crusaders or Inquisitors of our world, people would have and in all likelihood were, prosecuted for not having the same beliefs as the Paladins or at least some of them think that way. Some Paladins, mostly the ones now found in Westmarch seem to be much more accepting of others and maybe even their cultures, so long as they don't succomb to the influence of the Three, then you can be sure they will punish any who fall from the Light with the utmost brutality.
The Zakarum's main temple may have been corrupted, but they have spread far and wide so much that they can easily just make a new home-base with new leaders, probably located in Westmarch.
The Zakarum religion is now based in Westmarch. The Paladin playable class comes from Westmarch. Missionary Paladins were sent there and established a good grounding, when Mephisto took over their spiritual capitol, the area of Westmarch wherein lay the majority of the missonaries, became the new capitol.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
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Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if the Zakarum had quite a lot of torturing tools before Mephisto's takeover as well.
if we follow the books you are 100% correct. However i declare the books as heretical.... the real canon is in the game where the zakarum church is holy and not evil.
They are a holy Order, I never hinted at or said they were evil, so I don't know where you got that from. As a holy order they would see it as their duty to eradicate that which is not holy, such as demons and heathens. Either by conversion or death. Well it's death for the demons without question.
That does not make one evil though, misguided maybe, but not evil, as the goal of the Zakarum (before Mephisto tainted it) was in the service of the High Heavens. But their methods were definitely a little harse.
-http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h173/ELF3NLI3D/berserk-v17c11p237copy.jpg
-http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h173/ELF3NLI3D/berserk-v18c03p056-57copy.jpg
-http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h173/ELF3NLI3D/berserk-v18c03p058copy.jpg
(one has a bit of nudity so I posted links instead of images, didn't want to get anyone in trouble with a teacher/parent.)
I don't think it is out of the question that the Zakarum did similar things. But I think most Paladins fall more into the role of a travelling priest of monk, preaching the ways of the Zakarum, as opposed to the strict, "be converted or die" Inquisitor, but like I said, there would bound to be a few like that.
Taken from the Paladin History in the manual/om Arreat Summit
During the mid-twelfth century, after the Church of Zakarum had gained prominence in the East, the Church decreed that the visions of Akarat would be spread throughout the known world in order to redeem the masses. Thus, the Church selected a group of its most charismatic and devoted priests and sent them on a mission to proselytize the people of the West.
Unfortunately, the Church had not prepared these men for the rigors of travel nor the hazards of the world. The priests who survived their missions recounted tales of harsh weather, inadequate supplies, attacks from bandits and even encounters with horrible monsters. To ensure the success of future missions, the Church set about training holy warriors, Paladins, to accompany and safeguard their missionaries. In practice, these "Protectors of the Word" proved to be more successful at converting the native peoples than the Priests that they were assigned to defend. Impressing the locals with daring deeds, powerful weapons, and martial prowess was far more convincing than the condemnations of a soft-spoken monk. However, once the Word had been spread to every major city of the West, the "Protectors of the Word" faded from public view.
Some decades later, Paladins were again called into service. During the height of the Time of Troubles, the Church commenced a second campaign of conversion. This time, however, the inconvincible were deemed evil. The Zakarum Inquisition spread through the lands like a tempest, laying waste to all suspected of demonic possession or corruption. Leading this crusade was a new generation of Paladins, known as the "Hand of Zakarum." These cavaliers of righteousness swept through the lands, expunging the taint of demonic contamination wherever they found it.
In the midst of this bloody crusade, a rebellion arose within the ranks of the Paladins of Zakarum. The rebels condemned the methods of the Inquisition, proclaiming that the new Order of Paladins should protect the innocent, and that the evil corruption was rooted in their forebear's failure. They resolved to fight the true source of corruption, the Three Prime Evils - Diablo, Baal and Mephisto. And so, these rebellious Paladins left their Zakarum brethren and ventured west.
Second to last paragraph sounds exactly like what we have been talking about.
The Religion of the Zakarum is very interesting, and from the history text dump I provided earlier, it mentions they did at one point act like the Catholic Inquisitions, sure this is not the greatest way to act, but it is interesting, Paladins are always these shining warriors of light, defenders of truth and justice, protectors of the weak and helpless. It is nice to see their darkr side for a change, But not the Anti-Paladin (Black Knight) darker side, as that is the complete polar opposite.
I'm not sure what you mean lol.
Hey, yeah. The Zakarum is a whole wiki page thats on my list of things to do lol. I'll gather all the info from the books and manuals and everything, and maybe attempt to analyse them but I probably wouldn't be very good at that. You'd be good at it though, Elfen.
Actually, it won't be that hard to pull all the info together. I'll do it soon. It'll be good to get a general idea of how they behave and what resemblence they have to 'real-world' religions. I mean, they obviously aren't Bhuddist Monks lol.
Wait wait wait, I just realised something... are the Zakarum against witches/mages? They don't seem to be, or atleast not yet. Real world religious fanatics were definitely against witchcraft, and that seems to be the main difference between them and the Zakarum. Adria the Witch wasn't really welcomed in town, but they didn't try and hang her (though that could just be because they had no real law anymore). In the opening cinematic there are people that were hung, but that seems to have just been from the madness of King Leoric.
Although, on the other hand, the Zakarum came into Kurast and took over the Old Religion, which was much more magic-based, and deemed them unholy and full of blasphemy.
The Zakarum's main temple may have been corrupted, but they have spread far and wide so much that they can easily just make a new home-base with new leaders, probably located in Westmarch.
What does that mean they will do now though? Will they attack the rest of the mage clans, or let them be? (If they haven't already, I can't quite recall how they feel towards mages/witches still).
In our world, witchcraft, and by enlarge magic, was perceived to be the work of the Devil, thus it was deemed evil. Where as in Sanctuary, the Paladins themselves cast magic, albeit more divine and clerical, than the mage clans and the necromancers.
So no I don't think they perceive magic, and any who use it to be evil. They are probably more against people for the beliefs, than their practices. Much like the Crusaders or Inquisitors of our world, people would have and in all likelihood were, prosecuted for not having the same beliefs as the Paladins or at least some of them think that way. Some Paladins, mostly the ones now found in Westmarch seem to be much more accepting of others and maybe even their cultures, so long as they don't succomb to the influence of the Three, then you can be sure they will punish any who fall from the Light with the utmost brutality.
The Zakarum religion is now based in Westmarch. The Paladin playable class comes from Westmarch. Missionary Paladins were sent there and established a good grounding, when Mephisto took over their spiritual capitol, the area of Westmarch wherein lay the majority of the missonaries, became the new capitol.