We definitely want there to be a PvP mode for PvP players, and we would like that mode to be a really serious, skill-based, very strong [aspect of the game]. I feel that on the side of all our games, we really try to make PvP games that cater to a competitive player, first and foremost. We don't try to dumb down or tone down our PvP games. We make [them] good, strong competitive games. StarCraft is one of the best examples. But in terms of what our actual plans are for Diablo III, we don't have anything to specifically announce right now, mostly because we're still messing around with a bunch of different ideas.
Blizzard wants players to be able to fight each other, but they DON'T want there to be repercussions for losing. As they've said, d3 is first and foremost a cooperative game, and they want the focus on killing monsters with your friends, not beating other people.
but they're adding pvp because people like fighting each other. They dont want the focus of gamers to be "step 1, beat the game, step 2, gear up for arena." They want it to remain "step 1, beat normal with friends. step 2, beat nightmare with friends. step 3, beat hell with friends. step 4, spend eternity trying to clear inferno. and if you get bored, step 5, mess around in a free-play (or team play), gurubashi-arena style pvp"
Finally somone who understands. Jay clearly explains that they want pvp in the game.. because some people like to "PVP". They can't make a game that caters for only one audience. Therefore even if they emphasize strongly on one aspect like PVM and only a moderate amount on PVP the game is still available to the people who enjoy pvp.
I'm over this fucking topic anyway, and people who keep sooking about no rating, no way to show I'm best, or I can't prove how big my dick is.
Finally somone who understands. Jay clearly explains that they want pvp in the game.. because some people like to "PVP". They can't make a game that caters for only one audience. Therefore even if they emphasize strongly on one aspect like PVM and only a moderate amount on PVP the game is still available to the people who enjoy pvp.
I'm over this fucking topic anyway, and people who keep sooking about no rating, no way to show I'm best, or I can't prove how big my dick is.
Finally somone who understands. Jay clearly explains that they want pvp in the game.. because some people like to "PVP". They can't make a game that caters for only one audience. Therefore even if they emphasize strongly on one aspect like PVM and only a moderate amount on PVP the game is still available to the people who enjoy pvp.
I'm over this fucking topic anyway, and people who keep sooking about no rating, no way to show I'm best, or I can't prove how big my dick is.
You could prove it with video and a ruler, no?
Tell that to the people who think pvp is the only thing worth doing on diablo.
Personally I wanna see that happen. Might be funny.
But anyway, that article is from just over 4 years ago. All he's probably talking about there is that they want to have PvP in Diablo III. Maybe in 2008 it wasn't certain that there was going to be arenas that were expressly there for PvP.
By "competitive" he's still just talking about arena PvP, as opposed to the imbalanced, gank-based PvP from Diablo II people at the time were familiar with. He also means that it'll be somewhat balanced when he says "competitive." Something can't be competitive if one thing clearly dominates over all the rest. It's like putting professional sports players against middle school teams.
Jay has (way more recently) said that PvP will always take the backseat to PvM in Diablo III. They are not making a PvP game. It's first and far foremost a PvM game.
Jay has (way more recently) said that PvP will always take the backseat to PvM in Diablo III. They are not making a PvP game. It's first and far foremost a PvM game.
No one is arguing that point. You're taking an extremist stance by equating putting PvM first necessitates completely neglecting PvP.
THIS DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THE CASE. MAKE THE DAMN GAME THE BEST IT CAN BE. For fucks fucking sake.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Jay has (way more recently) said that PvP will always take the backseat to PvM in Diablo III. They are not making a PvP game. It's first and far foremost a PvM game.
No one is arguing that point. You're taking an extremist stance by equating putting PvM first necessitates completely neglecting PvP.
THIS DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THE CASE. MAKE THE DAMN GAME THE BEST IT CAN BE. For fucks fucking sake.
Never said that they were neglecting PvP. I was just reiterating what Jay said. I think he even used the same wording in regards to "PvP always taking the backseat." Don't get me wrong, I want PvP too. I'd totally do some arenas and duels and whatever else they have planned. I have no doubt it'll be awesome.
I do, however, hope that they stick to their stance that PvM takes precedence over PvP. I don't want another WoW where PvP balance infringes on PvE.
From all comments from the dev's (specifically Jay) as long as whatever they do for PvP does not require
1. Screwing around with ANY PvE skills because of PvP imbalance, its on the table
2. Not having to maintain 2 full sets of skills for ALL classes. (ie. unlikely to have new skills just for PvP)
- Jay has already confirmed they can change the way individual skills work in PvP vs PvM, but that's different from having to maintain 2 separate sets of skills.
3. Anything that decreases the PvM game. (ie. PKing, Killsteal etc)
That's their bottom line, or what they have told us. For the PvM folks, if it doesn't affect the PvM game I don't think we care either way. And they have said that currently PvP is priority #1, only thing that would trump it is a day 1 game breaking bug.
You bitch about the possibility of PVP, then you bitch when it's actually confirmed. Had it not been confirmed, you'd still bitch. End conclusion? You all bitch a lot about something you actually have no control over.
Not having to maintain 2 full sets of skills for ALL classes. (ie. unlikely to have new skills just for PvP)
- Jay has already confirmed they can change the way individual skills work in PvP vs PvM, but that's different from having to maintain 2 separate sets of skills.
What do you mean by "maintain 2 full set of skills"? Are you saying that players shouldn't have to develop builds specifically suited for pvp and pve? If so, that's probably the most ignorant and illogical expectation I've ever read, and I've ready a lot of idiotic stuff. If you expect the best pve builds to automatically somehow be the most efficient pvp builds by some act of brilliant design you're delusional. That is simply the nature of 2 separate aspects of the game, YOU'LL HAVE TO ADAPT DEPENDING ON YOUR OPPPONENT. SHOCKER I KNOW!!!
Point 1 and 2 are completely valid and acceptable.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Jay has (way more recently) said that PvP will always take the backseat to PvM in Diablo III. They are not making a PvP game. It's first and far foremost a PvM game.
No one is arguing that point. You're taking an extremist stance by equating putting PvM first necessitates completely neglecting PvP.
THIS DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THE CASE. MAKE THE DAMN GAME THE BEST IT CAN BE. For fucks fucking sake.
You keep creating some weird straw man to argue against, and seem to be hooked on a VERY vague word "competitive". No is saying that PvP will be neglected. A lot of people are saying, "its going to be secondary to PvM". Its not that controversial. PvP can be a secondary factor and still be fun. Its just not driving the design.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I grew up gaming without internet forums. The entire phenomenon of being upset with a game developer makes no sense to me. No sense. I cannot imagine spending my time and energy being upset about something I choose to do for recreation.
It's funny because you just used my so called straw man argument to create a straw man argument.
The simple quote "no is saying that PvP will be neglected." (I think you meant "no one") shows your ignorance toward the general mindset of a vast amount of players that see pvp as a threat to pvm. I absolutely agree that pvp SHOULD take a secondary role to PvM, but there is so much ambiguity in that statement. There's literally infinite amount of room for design since the PvM game is now FINISHED and PvP is still very very infantile. Look at the first 5 posts in the PvP forum and you'll see people crying about PvP stepping on PvM. Completely illogical sentiment but it's there, and I'm just fucking sick of hearing it.
The word COMPETITIVE is vague in DETAIL, but not in meaning. Many PvMers who say they don't care about PvP in any way in the same breath interject that PvP should not have any sort of balance or ranking. WHAT THE HELL IS THE POINT THEN? Some people enjoy competition, i.e. having a significant REASON or GOAL to strive for (NOT FUCKING ACHIEVEMENTS PLEASE WHAT A JOKE). IF YOU DON'T THEN DON'T FUCKING PARTICIPATE. GO PLAY PVM. I WILL BE ENJOYING BOTH.
Competition doesn't HAVE to be PvP centered, either. If this shit was done right there would be some wonderful competitive flavor for every gaming type. You people need to look ahead. Yes this game WILL BE AMAZING, but what will add SYNERGISTIC LONGEVITY to it? Well I'll give you some examples:
Content racing - Teams race through content to see who can finish first. For the PvM centered competitionist! See who can finish that boss off the quickest, who can escort that NPC faster, or who can clear an event most efficiently! Great for making a name for your Clan or group of friends! 4. Horde Mode - Team compete to see who can hold off hoards of monsters for longer. A beautiful mix of competition and monster slaying fitting the Diablo theme perfectly!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
I'm confused as to what you're getting worked up about. I've not seen one person in this thread say that PvP should go die in a hole. Are you just ranting? I mean, if you are it's OK, but a little clarification would be nice. You're just preaching to the choir here. We all like PvM and PvP.
Preaching to the choir? Please tell me you're kidding. I haven't read a single post of someone encouraging a synergistic pvm and competition (pvp and pvm potentially) system other than myself, although there have been few who have agreed with my sentiments. It's as if it's a revolutionary idea that a game doesn't necessarily have to tear itself apart at both ends. Don't take that as hubris either, because I really don't give a shit. It's just the truth.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Not having to maintain 2 full sets of skills for ALL classes. (ie. unlikely to have new skills just for PvP)
- Jay has already confirmed they can change the way individual skills work in PvP vs PvM, but that's different from having to maintain 2 separate sets of skills.
What do you mean by "maintain 2 full set of skills"? Are you saying that players shouldn't have to develop builds specifically suited for pvp and pve? If so, that's probably the most ignorant and illogical expectation I've ever read, and I've ready a lot of idiotic stuff. If you expect the best pve builds to automatically somehow be the most efficient pvp builds by some act of brilliant design you're delusional. That is simply the nature of 2 separate aspects of the game, YOU'LL HAVE TO ADAPT DEPENDING ON YOUR OPPPONENT. SHOCKER I KNOW!!!
Point 1 and 2 are completely valid and acceptable.
This is from the developer's point of view. No one cares about Players having to maintain builds. But for developers to maintain 2 potentially different sets of skills / runes for each class is beyond unreasonable for a game that you're not paying monthly or have a cash shop for. Maintaining 2 different skills/runes for PvM & PvP is a huge undertaking, and will cause mass confusion on the main player base.
In diablo no class is balanced against each other in 1v1. And it is unreasonable to expect it to be so. The compromise in Wow is to nerf abilities that give an "unfair advantage" in PvP. In Starcraft the 3 races are meant to be balanced. However in Diablo this is not an option the developers are willing to pursue which is why some of the class abilities/runes are so awesome.
Maybe I just don't get what you're arguing. You're vying for a competitive side to PvP, without it being the structured, perfectly balanced environment of an eSport?
If that's so, how is it not already going to be like this? You go into an arena, compete against another team, win (hopefully) and get back to whatever you were doing. I don't see a problem. Maybe you're wanting for ladders? Rankings? Doesn't that kind of infringe on being an eSport then, when you have someone coming out on top? In order to be completely fair - and therefore competitive - you'd need to balance the game around PvP, which is something the developers are absolutely not going to do. It's not competition if one thing clearly outdoes another.
Perhaps explain what you think could be a fair system of competition without being an eSport, and without having to balance the game around PvP.
http://pc.gamespy.co...i/901260p3.html
Direct quote from Jay Wilson.
http://www.youtube.c...d&v=J-zZRhgnnRM
Interview on front page in support of a solid COMPETITIVE PvP system. Devs even say how excited they are to participate.
This should make everyone shut the fuck up about PvP not having a basis in Diablo 3.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
If one more person lumps e sports with competitive pvp I'm going to shit a damn elephant. Association fallacy at it's finest.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
Blizzard wants players to be able to fight each other, but they DON'T want there to be repercussions for losing. As they've said, d3 is first and foremost a cooperative game, and they want the focus on killing monsters with your friends, not beating other people.
but they're adding pvp because people like fighting each other. They dont want the focus of gamers to be "step 1, beat the game, step 2, gear up for arena." They want it to remain "step 1, beat normal with friends. step 2, beat nightmare with friends. step 3, beat hell with friends. step 4, spend eternity trying to clear inferno. and if you get bored, step 5, mess around in a free-play (or team play), gurubashi-arena style pvp"
if you disagree, feel free to say why
I'm over this fucking topic anyway, and people who keep sooking about no rating, no way to show I'm best, or I can't prove how big my dick is.
You could prove it with video and a ruler, no?
Tell that to the people who think pvp is the only thing worth doing on diablo.
-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8CBbeSAjVo
-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI4peeO3yzY
LOL -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcJ_XT3oWtY
But anyway, that article is from just over 4 years ago. All he's probably talking about there is that they want to have PvP in Diablo III. Maybe in 2008 it wasn't certain that there was going to be arenas that were expressly there for PvP.
By "competitive" he's still just talking about arena PvP, as opposed to the imbalanced, gank-based PvP from Diablo II people at the time were familiar with. He also means that it'll be somewhat balanced when he says "competitive." Something can't be competitive if one thing clearly dominates over all the rest. It's like putting professional sports players against middle school teams.
Jay has (way more recently) said that PvP will always take the backseat to PvM in Diablo III. They are not making a PvP game. It's first and far foremost a PvM game.
No one is arguing that point. You're taking an extremist stance by equating putting PvM first necessitates completely neglecting PvP.
THIS DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THE CASE. MAKE THE DAMN GAME THE BEST IT CAN BE. For fucks fucking sake.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
I do, however, hope that they stick to their stance that PvM takes precedence over PvP. I don't want another WoW where PvP balance infringes on PvE.
1. Screwing around with ANY PvE skills because of PvP imbalance, its on the table
2. Not having to maintain 2 full sets of skills for ALL classes. (ie. unlikely to have new skills just for PvP)
- Jay has already confirmed they can change the way individual skills work in PvP vs PvM, but that's different from having to maintain 2 separate sets of skills.
3. Anything that decreases the PvM game. (ie. PKing, Killsteal etc)
That's their bottom line, or what they have told us. For the PvM folks, if it doesn't affect the PvM game I don't think we care either way. And they have said that currently PvP is priority #1, only thing that would trump it is a day 1 game breaking bug.
And me? I bitch about people bitching.
Just relax and go with the flow.
What do you mean by "maintain 2 full set of skills"? Are you saying that players shouldn't have to develop builds specifically suited for pvp and pve? If so, that's probably the most ignorant and illogical expectation I've ever read, and I've ready a lot of idiotic stuff. If you expect the best pve builds to automatically somehow be the most efficient pvp builds by some act of brilliant design you're delusional. That is simply the nature of 2 separate aspects of the game, YOU'LL HAVE TO ADAPT DEPENDING ON YOUR OPPPONENT. SHOCKER I KNOW!!!
Point 1 and 2 are completely valid and acceptable.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
You keep creating some weird straw man to argue against, and seem to be hooked on a VERY vague word "competitive". No is saying that PvP will be neglected. A lot of people are saying, "its going to be secondary to PvM". Its not that controversial. PvP can be a secondary factor and still be fun. Its just not driving the design.
The simple quote "no is saying that PvP will be neglected." (I think you meant "no one") shows your ignorance toward the general mindset of a vast amount of players that see pvp as a threat to pvm. I absolutely agree that pvp SHOULD take a secondary role to PvM, but there is so much ambiguity in that statement. There's literally infinite amount of room for design since the PvM game is now FINISHED and PvP is still very very infantile. Look at the first 5 posts in the PvP forum and you'll see people crying about PvP stepping on PvM. Completely illogical sentiment but it's there, and I'm just fucking sick of hearing it.
The word COMPETITIVE is vague in DETAIL, but not in meaning. Many PvMers who say they don't care about PvP in any way in the same breath interject that PvP should not have any sort of balance or ranking. WHAT THE HELL IS THE POINT THEN? Some people enjoy competition, i.e. having a significant REASON or GOAL to strive for (NOT FUCKING ACHIEVEMENTS PLEASE WHAT A JOKE). IF YOU DON'T THEN DON'T FUCKING PARTICIPATE. GO PLAY PVM. I WILL BE ENJOYING BOTH.
Competition doesn't HAVE to be PvP centered, either. If this shit was done right there would be some wonderful competitive flavor for every gaming type. You people need to look ahead. Yes this game WILL BE AMAZING, but what will add SYNERGISTIC LONGEVITY to it? Well I'll give you some examples:
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
This is from the developer's point of view. No one cares about Players having to maintain builds. But for developers to maintain 2 potentially different sets of skills / runes for each class is beyond unreasonable for a game that you're not paying monthly or have a cash shop for. Maintaining 2 different skills/runes for PvM & PvP is a huge undertaking, and will cause mass confusion on the main player base.
In diablo no class is balanced against each other in 1v1. And it is unreasonable to expect it to be so. The compromise in Wow is to nerf abilities that give an "unfair advantage" in PvP. In Starcraft the 3 races are meant to be balanced. However in Diablo this is not an option the developers are willing to pursue which is why some of the class abilities/runes are so awesome.
If that's so, how is it not already going to be like this? You go into an arena, compete against another team, win (hopefully) and get back to whatever you were doing. I don't see a problem. Maybe you're wanting for ladders? Rankings? Doesn't that kind of infringe on being an eSport then, when you have someone coming out on top? In order to be completely fair - and therefore competitive - you'd need to balance the game around PvP, which is something the developers are absolutely not going to do. It's not competition if one thing clearly outdoes another.
Perhaps explain what you think could be a fair system of competition without being an eSport, and without having to balance the game around PvP.