what genre is this game "Diablo" everyone is talking about?
oh, its a hack and slash rpg, also called a dungeon crawler.
thats not arena crawler, thats dungeon crawler.
thats pve.
as a mini-game included, you can fight in an arena. wee.
what is this device called a "Nokia" everyone is talking about?
oh, its a cell phone, meant to make calls to other people.
thats not portable game system, thats a cell phone.
its for calling people.
as a mini-game included, you can play snake. wee.
What is this device called a hammer everyone is talking about?
Oh, its a tool, meant to help make life easier by smashing nails, ect in.
That is not a killing device, or a weapon, that is a tool used to make life easier.
As a mini game...you can pry nails out with its backend
Wait...you mean I can kill you with this said tool? NO WAI!?
I can spew blind ignorant stuff too. Game is PvE based yes, that is not the question. The question is: Is there a right and a wrong way to play? You play differently then me, who is wrong? Answer is no one.
The problem is that PvP and PvE don't play well together. It is best to focus on one of these areas. Trying to do PvP and PvE will be fail until AI's are human-like.
So D3 pvp'ers gets an entire arena where they can jump around and spank each others ass' .. aint that love enough? .. I mean, if you like pvp, then go play pvp, if you don't like it, stay away, simple.. As for balance on pvp vs pve, the reason they added the arena was so they could balance/change skills in PvP without hurting/nerfing a skill in PvE .. So all in all, good for both sides..
Main focus is on PvE, yet they still do stuff for the PvP people, so I don't really see what the problem is..
If you want a game where pvp is the main focus then play one of those hundreds of games where pvp and esport is the main focus, OR make your own league with a certain set of rules and see if YOU (you as anybody ;p no one specific) can make it into an esport .. People did it with CS with modding, they did it with quake, tribes, CoD and many others ... These games started turning into Esport material coz the comunity started a league with prices etc ..
I never said the current pvp features in d3 was inadequate. In fact if you read some of my other posts, I was even satisfied with d2 pvp (I know, it's so hard to read). I wanted to know why PvEers hate PvP and subsequently I would make arguments on why pvp should get the love. Hence the title of the thread.
They can give pvp more loving without it being an esport or having to focus too many resources on balancing it.
I made a topic with a few general ideas and despite it being one of the more constructive and bridge gaping concepts, it has gotten very low levels of attention. Apparently people would rather bicker about things which have no hope of implementation such as hostility etc. Rather than re-explain my ideas here, I'll just toss a link to it.
Actually, I pre-ordered the game only because of the PvP. I really like the PvE as well, however, just after I obtain the items needed I will start playing mainly PvP with some friends. I sincerely believe that this will be really good PvP game after a while and I do not care about people who say:
- PvE > PvP (it is interesting how you impose your point of view to everyone else, in my opinion is the opposite and many others will say the same)
- This IS not a PvP game, if you want pvp play counter strike (this is one of my favorites, its so stupid)
- Nobody cares about PvP (Jesus, everywhere I go I see posts about PvP, how the hell nobody cares?)
I believe that the game could be balance around PvE and around PvP and I really do not see a problem about that. JW stated that they can change the stats in a spell in PvP and that will not affect PvE, so there should be absolutely no problem to balance them both (at least for the expansion).
I have much more to say, but I have to go, pleas tell me if you agree with me
I'm sorry, if you pre-ordered the game purely for PvP you will probably be disappointed. If you're expecting a non-casual PvP experience you'll probably just not going to get it. PvP in Diablo 3 will likely be limited to various types of Arena without complex balancing changes specifically for PvP. Blizzard has stated that they will not drive overall balance changes based on PvP. They've explained that the primary balance changes that will be made for PvP will be duration changes and similar such changes.
As for the statements I've made about PvM vs PvP...well the truth of the matter is that the Diablo series has always had it's focus on PvM. The primary goal of the game is to delve into dungeons and kill the minions of hell. So yes... PvM is more important to the series and has always been so.
I'm am interested in PvPing in Diablo 3, however, it is not going to be my focus. I also do not expect more then casual PvP features. I don't expect competitive stats, strict balancing, etc. I expect a casual Arena where I can queue up, kill other players for fun, and then go back to killing the minions of hell.
Honestly, this is what Diablo is. If that means its not the game for you...that's perfectly fine, but don't expect it to be something it isn't.
OK, why everyone tries to tell what Diablo 3 is and what it isn's? I really do not understand that. Everyone is quoting a statement from JW made before one year what they want to achieve, but nobody is looking at what are they doing, their promises for great experience playing PvP, the fact that all team is assigned only with the PvP, it is really strange.
People, please note that the fact that some of you do not want to play PvP or have not played PvP in D2 does not mean that D2 is not a PvP game as well as PvM game (It is true that the PvP was crap but it was an existing feature). Many, many people were just playing PvM to get the weapons and compare strengths with their friends.
I sincerely hope that Blizzard will take into account what the community wants and will not be stubborn to not make the game PvP, because that is the logical movement of the RPGs. OK, maybe there will be more farmers now because of the RMAH, but I belive much more people will prefer playing with different friends on different arenas PvP.
This is just my opinion
Have you actually played Diablo 1? How about Diablo 2? Maybe you've played the Diablo 3 beta even? What is the primary focus of all of those games as designed by Blizzard? Guess what...its PvM. Its not actually that hard to understand, they are games focused around killing the minions of hell. Just because they have a PvP component doesn't make the overall focus of the game PvP.
Yes, they are dedicating their team to finishing the Arena PvP system and getting it integrated into the game after launch. This is because at launch there will be NO PvP AT ALL. This does not mean that the game is all of a sudden a PvP focused game. It just means that once they have the release done for the main game, they are going to devote their resources to finishing the PvP system so that players can casually PvP with their friends for fun.
I'm not against PvP. I'm against people trying to turn Diablo into some hardcore eSport PvP focused game. It's not what Blizzard designed the game to be, and its honestly not what the majority of the community wants. I feel the Arena will be a lot of fun and look forward to it being integrated, but people expecting to buy the game purely for PvP is just silly. That's not what Diablo is about, period.
I do not understand why do you care whether Diablo will be an e-sport or not, nobody cares if you are not competitive and you just want to kill stupid PCs every time you play Diablo 3, but you should not impose this to other people, not all the people are like you (thank's God). Tell me please, I am interested, what will you lose from Diablo being an e-sport??
And yeah, I have never said that Diablo 1 and 2's focus was PvP (never ever) so please do not put words in my mouth.
The reason many have stated they'd rather see no D3 e-sport has been stated throughout the multiple threads, but to rehash it. Making it such would change the focus from PvE to PvP. This would shift resources and create longer development times for the PvE side of things. As the focus of the game has always been PvE there seems little reason for such a change. The fact Blizzard has stated something like this as their stance does sort of validate the argument.
Now as for putting words in your mouth, he didn't. You asked why everyone tells people what D3 is or isn't. The reason is because they are certain things. Are we telling you that you can't focus on some minor aspect of the game? Nope. If you like PvP good for you, but you'll have to excuse us if we don't see why a game series that's primary focus has been the PvM/E, which you yourself seem to agree with should shift to more focus on PvP.
Now am I saying there was no PvP in D1 or D2, nope I'm not. There obviously was and some people liked it for their own specific reasons. The main focus on the game was PvE though, the back of the box did not tote going in and killing other players, it was about the storyline and facing off with the minions of hell.
As for Blizzard taking the community into account? Why is it that people don't think they have? Do they not do polls and market research all of a sudden? Apparently some believe that they must exist in some sort of sub-dimension cut off from our own. Or the sad fact is that despite what some may think they did listen and the community that was looking forward to D3 was more interested in the PvE than the PvP. They kept the focus PvE, but they haven't curb stomped PvPers. They will be working to give a nice fun casual PvP experience as well, with a lot less of the abuse that things like Hostility offered.
So what's the argument?
PvP needs more love? It's getting love.
The Pvp is not what you as a PvPer wanted? Sorry but just like you are quick to point out not everyone is you. Though I don't see a point in thanking God, that just seems petty and rude.
This game has to be a PvP/e-sport to survive/be viable? Once again that's more opinion than anything. If Diablo was at its heart a PvP game with a tacked on storyline mode I could understand, but it just isn't. Strangely Blizzard has chosen that other viable option for game survival, making it more interesting and appealing to the casual player.
Actually, one of the key words in the statement PvP needs more love is MORE. It is a fact that PvP gets some love, but many fans want it to get more.
They are getting love, quantifying it as not enough implies you are currently aware how how much love those fans are getting. Till it comes out it is mere speculation that it won't be enough.
I have never stated that this game has to be a PvP to survive
That was more off to the original post of this thread than your personal stance.
I can say now that while you talk about polls and researches you are probably not an economist, since you believe that any (I will be surprised if there is even one) research from the past decade will support the thesis that PvE game will earn more money (which I believe is the primary target of Blizzard) than a PvP game. The people and the market changed drastically from what they were 10 years ago. Why do you think WOW became what it is now, because of the amazing PvE (which was the focus at the launch) or because of its PvP?
You are correct I'm not an economist. Though frankly I doubt you're one either. Since a game's success is based upon more than its genre or style of play. There are multiple factors and strangely that would be something an economist would understand.
WoW is not a winning formula because of PvP or PvE. It's a combination as well as Blizzard trying to innovate and keep their fans while keeping it open enough for new ones. If we can agree on that then maybe we're somewhere on the same page after all. If you claim that WoW is kept solely or largely alive on the PvP factor then I'm sorry I can't agree with you.
OK this is from me. I know that the PvE is end will be really important part of the game, but I do not understand why PvP and PvE cannot coexist together, I do not believe that once they have the basis small balancing patches will take so much time and resourses
Frankly I haven't said they can't coexist in some form. The thing that rankles me is statements that what will be done currently isn't nearly enough without even trying it. Is it sad that it's coming out in a patch yes, but then their reason was that it wasn't good enough to them. Apparently not wanting to put out a rush/broken job in favor of a delay to make something fitting of putting your name behind isn't appreciated or considered loving enough.
Actually, one of the key words in the statement PvP needs more love is MORE. It is a fact that PvP gets some love, but many fans want it to get more.
I have never stated that this game has to be a PvP to survive, however, I can say now that while you talk about polls and researches you are probably not an economist, since you believe that any (I will be surprised if there is even one) research from the past decade will support the thesis that PvE game will earn more money (which I believe is the primary target of Blizzard) than a PvP game. The people and the market changed drastically from what they were 10 years ago. Why do you think WOW became what it is now, because of the amazing PvE (which was the focus at the launch) or because of its PvP?
OK this is from me. I know that the PvE is end will be really important part of the game, but I do not understand why PvP and PvE cannot coexist together, I do not believe that once they have the basis small balancing patches will take so much time and resourses
First of all...WoW became what it is now because of PvM. Its the constant addition of new PvM content that keeps people addicted. To see this for yourself, look at the population numbers towards the end of any expansion. Blizzard loses subscriptions during that time because people have finished all the PvM content and end up feeling left with nothing to do. The PvP of WoW has always been fairly unbalanced. Each major patch there seems to be a new class that got tweaked too much or ability that changed to make things OP. To add to that, Blizzard actually used WoW as an example where PvP negatively impacted their game. So.. you're just wrong.
Honestly, PvP is getting more then enough love in Diablo 3. The game's focus isn't PvP yet we're getting fully integrated systems for PvP. We're going to get very minor balance tweaks to help avoid things like perma-stun that should only effect PvP, allowing for the main PvM experience to remain the way it is. How is PvP not getting the love it deserves in a PvM game?
You know, you are right that the market has changed over the last 10 years. Perhaps 10 years ago, I would say that dedicating resources to things that catered to the more 'hardcore' gamer would make sense. Now days however, the 'casual' gamer is the primary gamer. This has happened due to the more wide acceptance of games and the ease in which they can be played (mobile games, wii, etc). The 'hardcore' gamer isn't the primary market anymore, and probably never will be again.
Honestly, why try jam something into Diablo that it doesn't 'need', hasn't been designed around, and the majority of the community don't want? We're going to have a fun Arena system that lets people PvP. We're going to have an epic PvM playthrough that they expect people to take months to completely finish. Diablo 3 sounds pretty amazing. Why does it need MORE PvP as you say? What would those MORE features be? Why would those MORE features be beneficial to the whole community and not just the minority that wants more hardcore PvP?
You've lost all your credibility right here.
I played exclusively HC from release of Classic D2 until a year or two after the 1.10 patch (and PvP'd quite a bit myself too) and HC was plagued with dupes, hacks, maphacks and botting.
There is still a famous list of duped rings/lances/amuletts from classic(hc) on the net which I could find for you if needed. Then there was the gamble sniffer, which told you which items are going to be uniques (still in classic). There have been massive amounts of SoJ's been gambled this way.
Druid shapeshifting with a too high skill level game crashing in HC? I remember that and I remember the patched Diablo2.exe the druids used so their game didnt crash.
Ith swords/armors/helms in HC, massive amounts of those I have seen.
I could keep on going, but the point is, HC never was free of hacking and if you believe so ....
Um are you making stuff up? Because I'm pretty sure HC was not "Plagued" with duped items. I'm not saying there wasn't any at all but you definitely have to go out of your way to find the dupers. Softcore mode on the otherhand you can find them ever 2 seconds in trade channel. At any rate the elite players of HC generally don't use duped items. I can't confirm that for sure but it was a tight knit community and evreyone had great sportsmenship. (well almost everyone)
You've lost all your credibility right here.
I played exclusively HC from release of Classic D2 until a year or two after the 1.10 patch (and PvP'd quite a bit myself too) and HC was plagued with dupes, hacks, maphacks and botting.
There is still a famous list of duped rings/lances/amuletts from classic(hc) on the net which I could find for you if needed. Then there was the gamble sniffer, which told you which items are going to be uniques (still in classic). There have been massive amounts of SoJ's been gambled this way.
Druid shapeshifting with a too high skill level game crashing in HC? I remember that and I remember the patched Diablo2.exe the druids used so their game didnt crash.
Ith swords/armors/helms in HC, massive amounts of those I have seen.
I could keep on going, but the point is, HC never was free of hacking and if you believe so ....
Um are you making stuff up? Because I'm pretty sure HC was not "Plagued" with duped items. I'm not saying there wasn't any at all but you definitely have to go out of your way to find the dupers. Softcore mode on the otherhand you can find them ever 2 seconds in trade channel. At any rate the elite players of HC generally don't use duped items. I can't confirm that for sure but it was a tight knit community and evreyone had great sportsmenship. (well almost everyone)
Lol no, HC players DID use duped items, and the market for HC duped items off of third party websites was pretty damn big. Possibly you and a couple friends never did it, but the community did, and just like Xezz said, if you believe otherwise you're just lying to yourself.
Actually, one of the key words in the statement PvP needs more love is MORE. It is a fact that PvP gets some love, but many fans want it to get more.
They are getting love, quantifying it as not enough implies you are currently aware how how much love those fans are getting. Till it comes out it is mere speculation that it won't be enough.
I have never stated that this game has to be a PvP to survive
That was more off to the original post of this thread than your personal stance.
I can say now that while you talk about polls and researches you are probably not an economist, since you believe that any (I will be surprised if there is even one) research from the past decade will support the thesis that PvE game will earn more money (which I believe is the primary target of Blizzard) than a PvP game. The people and the market changed drastically from what they were 10 years ago. Why do you think WOW became what it is now, because of the amazing PvE (which was the focus at the launch) or because of its PvP?
You are correct I'm not an economist. Though frankly I doubt you're one either. Since a game's success is based upon more than its genre or style of play. There are multiple factors and strangely that would be something an economist would understand.
WoW is not a winning formula because of PvP or PvE. It's a combination as well as Blizzard trying to innovate and keep their fans while keeping it open enough for new ones. If we can agree on that then maybe we're somewhere on the same page after all. If you claim that WoW is kept solely or largely alive on the PvP factor then I'm sorry I can't agree with you.
OK this is from me. I know that the PvE is end will be really important part of the game, but I do not understand why PvP and PvE cannot coexist together, I do not believe that once they have the basis small balancing patches will take so much time and resourses
Frankly I haven't said they can't coexist in some form. The thing that rankles me is statements that what will be done currently isn't nearly enough without even trying it. Is it sad that it's coming out in a patch yes, but then their reason was that it wasn't good enough to them. Apparently not wanting to put out a rush/broken job in favor of a delay to make something fitting of putting your name behind isn't appreciated or considered loving enough.
The title of this thread does not reflect how much attention or features Blizz is giving to Diablo pvp. It was referring to a lot of the hate posts on the pvp aspect of the game which I can't understand and doubt you would be able to justify. So from the whines and hates on pvp that really have no good reason to be there in the first place (yes I understand everyone is entitled to their opinions but that doesn't mean Westboro Church's ignorance have constructive validity), I would say pvp should get more love. Meaning more appreciation from pve fans.
I am also not an economist, although I may as well be one with the current career that I have. All I know is that vanilla ended with 6-7 million players with hardly any media coverage. The gamers loved the game, but they kept their excitement in the dark.
When BC game out along with arena, all of a sudden you got news coverage, hyper success of Blizzcon where tickets were sold in 10 minutes. Every top arena team were household names. Southpark parodies, Blizzard Corporation itself was growing the most rapidly at this point. BC ended with 10-11 million subscribers.
When WotLK came out, many players argued that the pvp is broken. The arena scene at blizzcon was not as loud. The end of WotLK had 11 million players.
When Cata came out the numbers went up to 12 million, but then fell back down to 10 million. The pvp state got worse. In fact there was a period of 7 months where there were almost no class balance adjustments in patches.
Now I understand there are various factors that play into the number of subscriptions and their respective era, but from my point of view as a person who LOVES WoW and would always play it if the pvp balancing was more organic, I see that pvp plays a big role in maintaining subscription. Esport itself is not necessary to keep subscriptions. But I believe Esport forces Blizz to care enough to maintain a standard. If D2 was an Esport, do you think there will be as many duped items as there were?
You've lost all your credibility right here.
I played exclusively HC from release of Classic D2 until a year or two after the 1.10 patch (and PvP'd quite a bit myself too) and HC was plagued with dupes, hacks, maphacks and botting.
There is still a famous list of duped rings/lances/amuletts from classic(hc) on the net which I could find for you if needed. Then there was the gamble sniffer, which told you which items are going to be uniques (still in classic). There have been massive amounts of SoJ's been gambled this way.
Druid shapeshifting with a too high skill level game crashing in HC? I remember that and I remember the patched Diablo2.exe the druids used so their game didnt crash.
Ith swords/armors/helms in HC, massive amounts of those I have seen.
I could keep on going, but the point is, HC never was free of hacking and if you believe so ....
Um are you making stuff up? Because I'm pretty sure HC was not "Plagued" with duped items. I'm not saying there wasn't any at all but you definitely have to go out of your way to find the dupers. Softcore mode on the otherhand you can find them ever 2 seconds in trade channel. At any rate the elite players of HC generally don't use duped items. I can't confirm that for sure but it was a tight knit community and evreyone had great sportsmenship. (well almost everyone)
Lol no, HC players DID use duped items, and the market for HC duped items off of third party websites was pretty damn big. Possibly you and a couple friends never did it, but the community did, and just like Xezz said, if you believe otherwise you're just lying to yourself.
You're right in there being 3rd part sites that sell duped items which is why I said there are still duped items to buy if you look for them (because reading is hard). But no, the top pvpers generally don't use duped items, if you think they do then you were not involved with what I'm talking about. It is fairly easy to know what someone is wearing, although it takes some time to sort it out.
You're right in there being 3rd part sites that sell duped items which is why I said there are still duped items to buy if you look for them (because reading is hard). But no, the top pvpers generally don't use duped items, if you think they do then you were not involved with what I'm talking about. It is fairly easy to know what someone is wearing, although it takes some time to sort it out.
Didn't the maphack back in D2 allow you to inspect people?
The title of this thread does not reflect how much attention or features Blizz is giving to Diablo pvp. It was referring to a lot of the hate posts on the pvp aspect of the game which I can't understand and doubt you would be able to justify. So from the whines and hates on pvp that really have no good reason to be there in the first place (yes I understand everyone is entitled to their opinions but that doesn't mean Westboro Church's ignorance have constructive validity), I would say pvp should get more love. Meaning more appreciation from pve fans.
To which I'll have to say perspective is lacking. I've read a lot of the posts in this forum the vast majority of the whines and hate seem to be coming from the PvP side of things actually. Comments about people being butthurt, nut huggers, and carebears, of being scared, or that this group is the sole cause of the other group's problems, etc. Those have been things that people proudly stating they're pvp have thrown at more pve types that have questioned or discussed the validity of the PvP statements. In truth many of the so called pve have stated looking forward to the pvp content. They've shown support for the current design Blizzard has proposed or even agreed with some of the extra ideas like clans, etc. that PvP has brought up.
The only statement that has come up on the PvE side in general that might not be friendly is "Well if you don't like the game then don't play it?" This isn't meant in a mean spirited nature it is just a fact. If you aren't going to have fun no one is forcing you to play. That doesn't mean the game is flawed or that there is someone to blame for this.
I appreciate pvp in a game, even one like Diablo that is more pve focused. As for giving pvpers more love as a whole. No. I can respect your right to your opinion, but I don't have to like or love it.
The title of this thread does not reflect how much attention or features Blizz is giving to Diablo pvp. It was referring to a lot of the hate posts on the pvp aspect of the game which I can't understand and doubt you would be able to justify. So from the whines and hates on pvp that really have no good reason to be there in the first place (yes I understand everyone is entitled to their opinions but that doesn't mean Westboro Church's ignorance have constructive validity), I would say pvp should get more love. Meaning more appreciation from pve fans.
To which I'll have to say perspective is lacking. I've read a lot of the posts in this forum the vast majority of the whines and hate seem to be coming from the PvP side of things actually. Comments about people being butthurt, nut huggers, and carebears, of being scared, or that this group is the sole cause of the other group's problems, etc. Those have been things that people proudly stating they're pvp have thrown at more pve types that have questioned or discussed the validity of the PvP statements. In truth many of the so called pve have stated looking forward to the pvp content. They've shown support for the current design Blizzard has proposed or even agreed with some of the extra ideas like clans, etc. that PvP has brought up.
The only statement that has come up on the PvE side in general that might not be friendly is "Well if you don't like the game then don't play it?" This isn't meant in a mean spirited nature it is just a fact. If you aren't going to have fun no one is forcing you to play. That doesn't mean the game is flawed or that there is someone to blame for this.
I appreciate pvp in a game, even one like Diablo that is more pve focused. As for giving pvpers more love as a whole. No. I can respect your right to your opinion, but I don't have to like or love it.
Spoken like a true socialist politician xD
I agree with you. Nobody has to like your opinion either >:]
It's funny really. You say you appreciate pvp, yet pvp should not get more love. I say pvp should get more love, but I realllllllllly do not plan to take d3 to a competitive level, I simply don't have the time to compete in an RPG anymore where items are a huge chunk of your power.
Spoken like a true socialist politician xD I agree with you. Nobody has to like your opinion either >:]
A politician how dare you! ;P
Nope the joy of diversity and free will is that you can inherently hold your own opinion. Can people try to change your mind certainly as many of the PvE have tried to do. Either seeking to explain why an idea is ill-conceived or more harmful than beneficial or actually proposing an actual compromise fulfilling that "Can't we all just get along?" idea that after so many post many are arriving at.
It's funny really. You say you appreciate pvp, yet pvp should not get more love. I say pvp should get more love, but I realllllllllly do not plan to take d3 to a competitive level, I simply don't have the time to compete in an RPG anymore where items are a huge chunk of your power.
Liking/loving pvpers and pvp are two different things. A community with several members that insult or bully others doesn't make me want to embrace it as a whole. Nor even if I loved PvP and was a dedicated PvP fan would I be required to embrace and hug all PvPers like friends. Sorry no that doesn't fly. Liking the principles of something does not immediately mean you will enjoy or should like the company of those people that proclaim that they speak for those principles. Much like respect I don't think love is something automatically given to a community.
So to recap I believe pvp is getting love. Should it get more? No, it's not yet received the 'love' that's been promised by developers. If what is given isn't enough then I can see but that's like a child looking at presents under a tree and declaring that it needs at least two more to know daddy loves them.
Now as for pvpers getting more love. That's something to address on an individual basis rather than as a community. If someone addresses a comment with outright insults and leaves not even the slightest bit of constructive criticism then I will admit my failing as a human being that I can't step around them, give them a hug, and say, "It's alright. I love you to."
The title of this thread does not reflect how much attention or features Blizz is giving to Diablo pvp. It was referring to a lot of the hate posts on the pvp aspect of the game which I can't understand and doubt you would be able to justify. So from the whines and hates on pvp that really have no good reason to be there in the first place (yes I understand everyone is entitled to their opinions but that doesn't mean Westboro Church's ignorance have constructive validity), I would say pvp should get more love. Meaning more appreciation from pve fans.
To which I'll have to say perspective is lacking. I've read a lot of the posts in this forum the vast majority of the whines and hate seem to be coming from the PvP side of things actually. Comments about people being butthurt, nut huggers, and carebears, of being scared, or that this group is the sole cause of the other group's problems, etc. Those have been things that people proudly stating they're pvp have thrown at more pve types that have questioned or discussed the validity of the PvP statements. In truth many of the so called pve have stated looking forward to the pvp content. They've shown support for the current design Blizzard has proposed or even agreed with some of the extra ideas like clans, etc. that PvP has brought up.
The only statement that has come up on the PvE side in general that might not be friendly is "Well if you don't like the game then don't play it?" This isn't meant in a mean spirited nature it is just a fact. If you aren't going to have fun no one is forcing you to play. That doesn't mean the game is flawed or that there is someone to blame for this.
I appreciate pvp in a game, even one like Diablo that is more pve focused. As for giving pvpers more love as a whole. No. I can respect your right to your opinion, but I don't have to like or love it.
You bring up a couple of interesting points. But I would like to counter your first argument with that pvers get just as much hate if not more hate with the fact that pvers are currently in a good situation right now with WoW and D3 focusing on pve. This goes back to one of my previous points with that PvEers have very very very little reason to complain about pvp. On a side note pvpers have a lot of resentment for pve partially because good pve gear is VERY viable in high-level pvp, where as good pvp gear is crap for high level pve (this is of course in reference to WoW).
Your second statement gave me something to think about, but I stand by my view that those statements, as mild as they may seem, are just as infuriating as direct-hateful statements. Look, as I have said, the pvers already have Blizz focusing on pve. Why should they cry Bloody-murder? PvPers know this and I don't want to sound emo or anything (I just want to make a point) but sometimes negligence is far more damaging than negative effects.
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Oh, its a tool, meant to help make life easier by smashing nails, ect in.
That is not a killing device, or a weapon, that is a tool used to make life easier.
As a mini game...you can pry nails out with its backend
Wait...you mean I can kill you with this said tool? NO WAI!?
I can spew blind ignorant stuff too. Game is PvE based yes, that is not the question. The question is: Is there a right and a wrong way to play? You play differently then me, who is wrong? Answer is no one.
That's all I read...
Why not try something constructive instead of adding your faces to the pile? : )
-Alamar
Why not try something constructive instead of being a smart a**? : ) Here let me hold your hand.
My name is _______ and I think pvp is/should _________________.
-Harleq
I never said the current pvp features in d3 was inadequate. In fact if you read some of my other posts, I was even satisfied with d2 pvp (I know, it's so hard to read). I wanted to know why PvEers hate PvP and subsequently I would make arguments on why pvp should get the love. Hence the title of the thread.
I made a topic with a few general ideas and despite it being one of the more constructive and bridge gaping concepts, it has gotten very low levels of attention. Apparently people would rather bicker about things which have no hope of implementation such as hostility etc. Rather than re-explain my ideas here, I'll just toss a link to it.
http://www.diablofans.com/topic/38257-where-we-stand-some-more-specific-pvp-concepts/
I'm sorry, if you pre-ordered the game purely for PvP you will probably be disappointed. If you're expecting a non-casual PvP experience you'll probably just not going to get it. PvP in Diablo 3 will likely be limited to various types of Arena without complex balancing changes specifically for PvP. Blizzard has stated that they will not drive overall balance changes based on PvP. They've explained that the primary balance changes that will be made for PvP will be duration changes and similar such changes.
As for the statements I've made about PvM vs PvP...well the truth of the matter is that the Diablo series has always had it's focus on PvM. The primary goal of the game is to delve into dungeons and kill the minions of hell. So yes... PvM is more important to the series and has always been so.
I'm am interested in PvPing in Diablo 3, however, it is not going to be my focus. I also do not expect more then casual PvP features. I don't expect competitive stats, strict balancing, etc. I expect a casual Arena where I can queue up, kill other players for fun, and then go back to killing the minions of hell.
Honestly, this is what Diablo is. If that means its not the game for you...that's perfectly fine, but don't expect it to be something it isn't.
Have you actually played Diablo 1? How about Diablo 2? Maybe you've played the Diablo 3 beta even? What is the primary focus of all of those games as designed by Blizzard? Guess what...its PvM. Its not actually that hard to understand, they are games focused around killing the minions of hell. Just because they have a PvP component doesn't make the overall focus of the game PvP.
Yes, they are dedicating their team to finishing the Arena PvP system and getting it integrated into the game after launch. This is because at launch there will be NO PvP AT ALL. This does not mean that the game is all of a sudden a PvP focused game. It just means that once they have the release done for the main game, they are going to devote their resources to finishing the PvP system so that players can casually PvP with their friends for fun.
I'm not against PvP. I'm against people trying to turn Diablo into some hardcore eSport PvP focused game. It's not what Blizzard designed the game to be, and its honestly not what the majority of the community wants. I feel the Arena will be a lot of fun and look forward to it being integrated, but people expecting to buy the game purely for PvP is just silly. That's not what Diablo is about, period.
The reason many have stated they'd rather see no D3 e-sport has been stated throughout the multiple threads, but to rehash it. Making it such would change the focus from PvE to PvP. This would shift resources and create longer development times for the PvE side of things. As the focus of the game has always been PvE there seems little reason for such a change. The fact Blizzard has stated something like this as their stance does sort of validate the argument.
Now as for putting words in your mouth, he didn't. You asked why everyone tells people what D3 is or isn't. The reason is because they are certain things. Are we telling you that you can't focus on some minor aspect of the game? Nope. If you like PvP good for you, but you'll have to excuse us if we don't see why a game series that's primary focus has been the PvM/E, which you yourself seem to agree with should shift to more focus on PvP.
Now am I saying there was no PvP in D1 or D2, nope I'm not. There obviously was and some people liked it for their own specific reasons. The main focus on the game was PvE though, the back of the box did not tote going in and killing other players, it was about the storyline and facing off with the minions of hell.
As for Blizzard taking the community into account? Why is it that people don't think they have? Do they not do polls and market research all of a sudden? Apparently some believe that they must exist in some sort of sub-dimension cut off from our own. Or the sad fact is that despite what some may think they did listen and the community that was looking forward to D3 was more interested in the PvE than the PvP. They kept the focus PvE, but they haven't curb stomped PvPers. They will be working to give a nice fun casual PvP experience as well, with a lot less of the abuse that things like Hostility offered.
So what's the argument?
PvP needs more love? It's getting love.
The Pvp is not what you as a PvPer wanted? Sorry but just like you are quick to point out not everyone is you. Though I don't see a point in thanking God, that just seems petty and rude.
This game has to be a PvP/e-sport to survive/be viable? Once again that's more opinion than anything. If Diablo was at its heart a PvP game with a tacked on storyline mode I could understand, but it just isn't. Strangely Blizzard has chosen that other viable option for game survival, making it more interesting and appealing to the casual player.
That was more off to the original post of this thread than your personal stance.
You are correct I'm not an economist. Though frankly I doubt you're one either. Since a game's success is based upon more than its genre or style of play. There are multiple factors and strangely that would be something an economist would understand.
WoW is not a winning formula because of PvP or PvE. It's a combination as well as Blizzard trying to innovate and keep their fans while keeping it open enough for new ones. If we can agree on that then maybe we're somewhere on the same page after all. If you claim that WoW is kept solely or largely alive on the PvP factor then I'm sorry I can't agree with you.
Frankly I haven't said they can't coexist in some form. The thing that rankles me is statements that what will be done currently isn't nearly enough without even trying it. Is it sad that it's coming out in a patch yes, but then their reason was that it wasn't good enough to them. Apparently not wanting to put out a rush/broken job in favor of a delay to make something fitting of putting your name behind isn't appreciated or considered loving enough.
First of all...WoW became what it is now because of PvM. Its the constant addition of new PvM content that keeps people addicted. To see this for yourself, look at the population numbers towards the end of any expansion. Blizzard loses subscriptions during that time because people have finished all the PvM content and end up feeling left with nothing to do. The PvP of WoW has always been fairly unbalanced. Each major patch there seems to be a new class that got tweaked too much or ability that changed to make things OP. To add to that, Blizzard actually used WoW as an example where PvP negatively impacted their game. So.. you're just wrong.
Honestly, PvP is getting more then enough love in Diablo 3. The game's focus isn't PvP yet we're getting fully integrated systems for PvP. We're going to get very minor balance tweaks to help avoid things like perma-stun that should only effect PvP, allowing for the main PvM experience to remain the way it is. How is PvP not getting the love it deserves in a PvM game?
You know, you are right that the market has changed over the last 10 years. Perhaps 10 years ago, I would say that dedicating resources to things that catered to the more 'hardcore' gamer would make sense. Now days however, the 'casual' gamer is the primary gamer. This has happened due to the more wide acceptance of games and the ease in which they can be played (mobile games, wii, etc). The 'hardcore' gamer isn't the primary market anymore, and probably never will be again.
Honestly, why try jam something into Diablo that it doesn't 'need', hasn't been designed around, and the majority of the community don't want? We're going to have a fun Arena system that lets people PvP. We're going to have an epic PvM playthrough that they expect people to take months to completely finish. Diablo 3 sounds pretty amazing. Why does it need MORE PvP as you say? What would those MORE features be? Why would those MORE features be beneficial to the whole community and not just the minority that wants more hardcore PvP?
Um are you making stuff up? Because I'm pretty sure HC was not "Plagued" with duped items. I'm not saying there wasn't any at all but you definitely have to go out of your way to find the dupers. Softcore mode on the otherhand you can find them ever 2 seconds in trade channel. At any rate the elite players of HC generally don't use duped items. I can't confirm that for sure but it was a tight knit community and evreyone had great sportsmenship. (well almost everyone)
Lol no, HC players DID use duped items, and the market for HC duped items off of third party websites was pretty damn big. Possibly you and a couple friends never did it, but the community did, and just like Xezz said, if you believe otherwise you're just lying to yourself.
The title of this thread does not reflect how much attention or features Blizz is giving to Diablo pvp. It was referring to a lot of the hate posts on the pvp aspect of the game which I can't understand and doubt you would be able to justify. So from the whines and hates on pvp that really have no good reason to be there in the first place (yes I understand everyone is entitled to their opinions but that doesn't mean Westboro Church's ignorance have constructive validity), I would say pvp should get more love. Meaning more appreciation from pve fans.
I am also not an economist, although I may as well be one with the current career that I have. All I know is that vanilla ended with 6-7 million players with hardly any media coverage. The gamers loved the game, but they kept their excitement in the dark.
When BC game out along with arena, all of a sudden you got news coverage, hyper success of Blizzcon where tickets were sold in 10 minutes. Every top arena team were household names. Southpark parodies, Blizzard Corporation itself was growing the most rapidly at this point. BC ended with 10-11 million subscribers.
When WotLK came out, many players argued that the pvp is broken. The arena scene at blizzcon was not as loud. The end of WotLK had 11 million players.
When Cata came out the numbers went up to 12 million, but then fell back down to 10 million. The pvp state got worse. In fact there was a period of 7 months where there were almost no class balance adjustments in patches.
Now I understand there are various factors that play into the number of subscriptions and their respective era, but from my point of view as a person who LOVES WoW and would always play it if the pvp balancing was more organic, I see that pvp plays a big role in maintaining subscription. Esport itself is not necessary to keep subscriptions. But I believe Esport forces Blizz to care enough to maintain a standard. If D2 was an Esport, do you think there will be as many duped items as there were?
You're right in there being 3rd part sites that sell duped items which is why I said there are still duped items to buy if you look for them (because reading is hard). But no, the top pvpers generally don't use duped items, if you think they do then you were not involved with what I'm talking about. It is fairly easy to know what someone is wearing, although it takes some time to sort it out.
Oh, com'on.. who didn't use that to speed up runs
To which I'll have to say perspective is lacking. I've read a lot of the posts in this forum the vast majority of the whines and hate seem to be coming from the PvP side of things actually. Comments about people being butthurt, nut huggers, and carebears, of being scared, or that this group is the sole cause of the other group's problems, etc. Those have been things that people proudly stating they're pvp have thrown at more pve types that have questioned or discussed the validity of the PvP statements. In truth many of the so called pve have stated looking forward to the pvp content. They've shown support for the current design Blizzard has proposed or even agreed with some of the extra ideas like clans, etc. that PvP has brought up.
The only statement that has come up on the PvE side in general that might not be friendly is "Well if you don't like the game then don't play it?" This isn't meant in a mean spirited nature it is just a fact. If you aren't going to have fun no one is forcing you to play. That doesn't mean the game is flawed or that there is someone to blame for this.
I appreciate pvp in a game, even one like Diablo that is more pve focused. As for giving pvpers more love as a whole. No. I can respect your right to your opinion, but I don't have to like or love it.
Spoken like a true socialist politician xD
I agree with you. Nobody has to like your opinion either >:]
It's funny really. You say you appreciate pvp, yet pvp should not get more love. I say pvp should get more love, but I realllllllllly do not plan to take d3 to a competitive level, I simply don't have the time to compete in an RPG anymore where items are a huge chunk of your power.
Nope the joy of diversity and free will is that you can inherently hold your own opinion. Can people try to change your mind certainly as many of the PvE have tried to do. Either seeking to explain why an idea is ill-conceived or more harmful than beneficial or actually proposing an actual compromise fulfilling that "Can't we all just get along?" idea that after so many post many are arriving at.
Liking/loving pvpers and pvp are two different things. A community with several members that insult or bully others doesn't make me want to embrace it as a whole. Nor even if I loved PvP and was a dedicated PvP fan would I be required to embrace and hug all PvPers like friends. Sorry no that doesn't fly. Liking the principles of something does not immediately mean you will enjoy or should like the company of those people that proclaim that they speak for those principles. Much like respect I don't think love is something automatically given to a community.
So to recap I believe pvp is getting love. Should it get more? No, it's not yet received the 'love' that's been promised by developers. If what is given isn't enough then I can see but that's like a child looking at presents under a tree and declaring that it needs at least two more to know daddy loves them.
Now as for pvpers getting more love. That's something to address on an individual basis rather than as a community. If someone addresses a comment with outright insults and leaves not even the slightest bit of constructive criticism then I will admit my failing as a human being that I can't step around them, give them a hug, and say, "It's alright. I love you to."
You bring up a couple of interesting points. But I would like to counter your first argument with that pvers get just as much hate if not more hate with the fact that pvers are currently in a good situation right now with WoW and D3 focusing on pve. This goes back to one of my previous points with that PvEers have very very very little reason to complain about pvp. On a side note pvpers have a lot of resentment for pve partially because good pve gear is VERY viable in high-level pvp, where as good pvp gear is crap for high level pve (this is of course in reference to WoW).
Your second statement gave me something to think about, but I stand by my view that those statements, as mild as they may seem, are just as infuriating as direct-hateful statements. Look, as I have said, the pvers already have Blizz focusing on pve. Why should they cry Bloody-murder? PvPers know this and I don't want to sound emo or anything (I just want to make a point) but sometimes negligence is far more damaging than negative effects.