I read abit of your post. Well you say that we get pvp but pvp is all aboout coompetition. They might aswell replace players with npcs at this Point. Becuase what they Do is making pvp meaningless. Saying otherwise is to be ignorant. We dont get pvp. Casuals get their piece of the cake, where is ours?
as to your experience, you dont have insight in what others want other then the friends you have etc. I've played tons since the beginning and i Only infact enjoyed pvp and building retarded characters that would own the mainstream builds. your experience and mine can Only go so far. What is and what isnt it what matters. Casual casual and no hardcore except pve, inferno, that Will be cleared fairly quickly. Then there is nothing that can keep the hardcore People playing.
I'm sorry, but I just don't agree. Just because Blizzard isn't adding ranking, and eSport features...somehow it's not PvP? I'm sorry, but that just isn't right. By definition, PvP is Player vs Player...and that is what Arena is. Just because you do not get added features to allow you to fluff your ego...doesn't make it a bad system.
As for my experience....I'd say research, play experience, talking to various people, etc...at least gives me a decent insight into the issue. The main thing is...I feel this need to have some means to put down other players is negative and not something we need in the game. I think the system Blizzard is building is a good design that promotes PvP play without promoting harassment.
As i Said, they can put npcs Into the arena that People can fight against and have their fun, if its so fun having pointless pvp. There is nothing in their current systems that brings meaning to pvp. Anyway this discussion is going in circles. You want a casual aproach while i want both. No real argument against why not getting both. It's just lame and bad excuses. "its Hard to Balance" fuck that, you have your system called snows. "it brings a worse Community" fuck that, we are the Community and the Ones that brings People builds, guides etc. "we dont want to Do it" yeah because blizzard is ignorant. All these arguments i've seen over the last months are not reasonable nor a Good explination. ignorance, incompetence, casual play. Bah. The games People create today is pure crap compared to before. Every 9 year old kid must be able to play so lets cater it to that and not Good standards to allow People to adapt and learn.
You have yet to explain WHY you need some means to fluff your ego in order to have fun...why?
As for the reasons they have stated...the developers choosing not to develop two games (PvM and PvP) makes perfect sense. In order to balance PvP on its own, it would require an entire team devoted to balance specifically for PvP. This is not something Blizzard's developers wish to do. They want to focus their resources on PvM and continue to add awesome content. They want to put their resources towards the part of the game they feel is the central design.. PvM. How is that a bad thing?
Don't worry Conax. It might be good that PvP patch will not be available at release and we have not much info about it yet. They need to tell the public what needs to be told to sell boxes even to 9y olds that cry when bullied in a video game. Casuals will move on to something else in few months and then they will cater to more demanding fans, so they can keep profit from RMAH.
I think you really underestimate the PvM community. I have a feeling that even the casual players will be playing this game for six months to a year. That is the completely casual player. Anyone that is actually a fan of the Diablo series will likely stick around for a few years as they try to complete Inferno with multiple characters, perfect their gear, get achievements, etc.
This isn't even considering the hardcore PvM players...
I'm sorry, but you're not likely to see Blizzard just change their stance on things. At most, they will offer private Arenas (without spectator or replay)...but you may already see that with the PvP patch (though I kinda hope not). The developers themselves do not want to turn Diablo 3 into a PvP focused game, so I highly doubt the community is going to change that. Especially when people have been complaining since the announcement and they have continued their path regardless.
Ha ok, so you are boasting that a game primarily developed for its robust and terrific PvM has its community matched by an inferior shallow mechanic right?
Now imagine if that shallow inferior mechanic was given a little bit more depth, a little more opening toward new players, a little more exposure...you think your robust PvM that is only evenly matched with the shallow inferior mechanic will still compete when it is also a robust mechanic?
The correct answer is, who the hell cares. Obviously there are players who enjoy both a great amount. To limit one for the other is a dumb idea. Especially when 1 community takes care of themselves and only require so very little ha.
You see it as a dumb idea, while Blizzard (and others in their community) see it as the developers wanting to focus on developing what they enjoy developing (the PvM). Just because that means the game doesn't cater to your play~style specifically, doesn't make it a dumb idea. Blizzard doesn't make decisions like these without research either. They obviously know they can keep the game alive without a highly competitive PvP environment...
Yes, PvM is evenly matched with PvP still after 12~ years of Diablo 2's life. Considering many of those people still grinding PvM after all this time have beaten the story...a couple hundred times?...seems pretty amazing that PvM is still going that strong. I'm confident that Diablo 3's PvM crowd will be the majority...for a few years at least. Sure, many will PvP for fun occasionally...but that doesn't mean their focus will be PvP. Just like many players I knew in Diablo 2 did PvP on occasion...but it wasn't their focus.
Diablo has always been a game about diving through dungeons, killing the minions of hell...
You know this is an interesting response. One you have mimic'd about a million times now.
I want to ask this question since you are so damn into what Diablo is about.
What is Starcraft 2? Or hell Starcraft for that matter?
Esports game?
Multiplayer game?
Single player game?
Used map settings game?
Level designer game?
There is no right answer. Any of those above can fully explain a great and fantastic way to play and enjoy Starcraft. Are any of them more right then the other? Are any of them more legit then the other? No. They all are very fleshed out communities within the game that support it and are a reason for its longevity. To ignore one of them would be a retarded move and to say you are more important is equally retarded.
The same concept can be applied to Diablo. Now you bitch and moan and cry that you are the majority (Congrats, really!). You are so scared and hateful toward the minority that we are not even allowed to have a conversation with each other about mechanics or modes we would like to see in the game to benefit not only US, but EVERYONE.
It is pretty ironic really, you bitch about the negativity that competitive gamers bring to the table, and yet your closed mindedness and elitist attitude toward how to play Diablo correctly is doing more damage then I have seen any elitist PvP'er do.
Ill say it again, hostility was amazing, because it gave me the ability to handle someone like you in my game. You run your mouth and I could take care of it, no problem. Now? Now you are protected, just how you want it. And no, this isn't about griefing, it is about putting loud mouthed ignorant people in their place, see you in game buddy.
You know this is an interesting response. One you have mimic'd about a million times now.
I want to ask this question since you are so damn into what Diablo is about.
What is Starcraft 2? Or hell Starcraft for that matter?
Esports game?
Multiplayer game?
Single player game?
Used map settings game?
Level designer game?
There is no right answer. Any of those above can fully explain a great and fantastic way to play and enjoy Starcraft. Are any of them more right then the other? Are any of them more legit then the other? No. They all are very fleshed out communities within the game that support it and are a reason for its longevity. To ignore one of them would be a retarded move and to say you are more important is equally retarded.
Starcraft 2 is actually two games in one, in a sense. It's a multiplayer eSport game, where balance is incredibly important. On the flip side, Starcraft 2 is a game engine for custom games. Both of these avenues were very important to developers as they developed the game and they are using the game engine side for their own mini~games (Blizzard Dota for instance).
There is a clear difference between this design and the Design of Diablo 3. Starcraft 2 was intentionally designed to have a focus around both custom games and eSport balance. Diablo 3 was intentionally designed to have a focus around PvM with added PvP as an extra.
Honestly, comparing Starcraft II with Diablo 3 isn't a very good comparison since StarCraft 2 isn't remotely the same game design as Diablo 3. You'd be better off comparing Diablo 3 to World of Warcraft as they resemble each other's design quite well and World of Warcraft is a PvM focused game with added PvP.
The same concept can be applied to Diablo. Now you bitch and moan and cry that you are the majority (Congrats, really!). You are so scared and hateful toward the minority that we are not even allowed to have a conversation with each other about mechanics or modes we would like to see in the game to benefit not only US, but EVERYONE.
It is pretty ironic really, you bitch about the negativity that competitive gamers bring to the table, and yet your closed mindedness and elitist attitude toward how to play Diablo correctly is doing more damage then I have seen any elitist PvP'er do.
Ill say it again, hostility was amazing, because it gave me the ability to handle someone like you in my game. You run your mouth and I could take care of it, no problem. Now? Now you are protected, just how you want it. And no, this isn't about griefing, it is about putting loud mouthed ignorant people in their place, see you in game buddy.
There you go calling me scared, yet again. What do I possibly have to be scared of? Blizzard has stated that the game will be designed in a way that I actually really like. Why would I be scared of those that want competitive PvP?
The reason I keep posting is because you aren't discussing feature suggestions, you're complaining that Blizzard isn't making the game the way you want. You specifically tend to lash out, harassing people who disagree with you and bash Blizzard for their decisions. That isn't discussing...
If you want meaningful discussion, perhaps you shouldn't get so hostile. People aren't going to take you seriously when the moment they something that goes against what you want, you lash out at them.
in LoL, you dont want ppl to just farm creeps, bitch about ppl killing you. LoL is PVP ONLY, if you wanna PvM, play WoW dungeons/raids or Diablo 2 and farm shits up.
Same thing with Diablo 3. If you wanna lvl your hardcore character and finish up inferno, you dont want a pure imbalanced character to come over and 3 shot you because your build wasnt meant for PvP AND/OR you gears arent the BiS gears.
The ''Private game'' argument.... This isnt a solo mode game and your friend ARENT always online.... sometimes you gotta resolve to play with strangers. Adding a challenge mode isnt gonna solve the prob cuz some ppl will just spam your face with challenge and make mobs a lot strong while he furiously spam his challenge button doing nothing to help.
Hell blizz even said they may add Duels, ok you may not die but thats not the point. Hardcore arenas... dunno if they will make it... or if deaths will be permanent.... but if they do your friend's problem is solved. Now you might tell me ''what if their whole team just nukes you down?'' well, hostility was just the same Bullshit... ppl could just turn on hostility with you and team you down.
I'll answer that with my signature. We want the game to be a success, we want Blizzard to work on things to make the game better, so we will be "complaining" about you "complaining" about our "complaining".
The game will be a success, it doesn't need features to allow people to fluff their ego in order to do so. Arena will offer a PvP system that the majority of players will enjoy immensely. Inferno offers a good PvM end~game that should remain challenging for the majority of players for many months. Hardcore Inferno is stated to be nearly impossible, offering an amazing challenge for those that really want a hard game.
I don't see how features like ranking that exist purely to allow people to belittle others...really help make the game better. In fact, I'd argue that they make the game worse...Blizzard seems to agree as they have stated they will not implement em.
Quote from game director or designer that there will be no ranked mode arena?
If you want to talk about what Blizzard or majority wants, provide us with source or stop trolling already.
While we’re talking about PvP it’s probably worth reminding everyone that what we’re targeting is a very loose and ‘for fun’ system. Imagine clicking a button, being matched up against another team of equal skill and gear, and win or lose you move forward (although faster if you win) on a personal progression system that gives you some cosmetic recognition as you go. There won’t be ladders or leagues, we have no intent to expose team ratings, and very likely nothing besides a win/loss record to track performance etc. etc. etc. Anyone who has tried it at BlizzCon knows the PvP in Diablo III is a blast, but I’ve seen some people start to get ideas that it’s going to be an eSport, and that’s just not something we’re targeting – for the sake of our goals in the single player/co-op experience.
I believe this was posted by Bashiok. Doesn't specifically state no ranking but does specifically state no leagues or ladders. Seems like I'm right in that they have no intention on supporting that style of play.
I specificaly said game director or designer, because Bashiok as a community manager have made so many mistakes already, he can't be seen as a viable source of information anymore. He talk about random arena mode because this is the only part of PvP that we know about, and does not say there will not be a ranked mode, just as he doesn't talk about custom games in that quote. Ranked arena =/= eSport. It might be like you think, that there will be only random arena in the game, but they have never said something will not be done, ever. Other than designing eSport scene in Diablo 3 (and DOTA mode). This is precisely why we should debate on what we would like to see as parts of PvP in Diablo 3. Not what we won't see, because someone believe they said "no, never". I would like to see ranked mode and I already gave you solid arguments why it would add alot to the game. Your arguments "blizzard doesn't want", "people will cry", "majority doesn't want", "I'm the majority! I say no, because no!" and so on, bring absolutely nothing constructive to the debate other than your floating ego.
And yet again I'll forward you to my signature. Fans have every right to complain for the sake of making the game better, and Blizzard expect that. They too want to make the game better, and they are not as ignorant as you make them to be, to not change their opinions on some matters, even if right now, they don't see a reason to do something.
Ok, I think I said what I wanted to say. Gonna wait thoes few more hours for the release of awesome game, that I believe will be even better in time. See you when the PvP patch comes along, if you will still be interested in D3.
There.. right at the beginning Jay specifically states they are not doing a ladder mode. So.. strike against PvM ranking.
There.. right at the beginning Jay specifically states that they will not have ranking in PvP. At most you will show the number of wins you have gotten. So.. strike against PvP ranking.
There ya go.. evidence given. It seems like there will be no ranked mode in the game period. So, can we move past ranked? They've also stated no eSports, no spectator mode, and not replays. So pretty much all the main features used for a competitive scene have been stated as no~go. The only thing left is custom~games and as of yet they are undecided on them (though they have stated that the players are a good reason NOT to implement em).
Its not like I pull my information out of thin air. Experience, research, and communicating with others.. I get my information from a wide array of sources. From such information I can honestly say that the majority of players do not want a competitive scene in Diablo 3. Blizzard seems to know this as well and are focusing away from that kind of PvP. I look forward to release of both PvM and PvP.. and expect I'll be playing the game for a rather long time.
Ecutruin: I'll explain alittle about my gaming background to get to the point as to why i want ratings and esports features. I've played more then most people in my life because i'm chronically sick. I've been pro/semi-pro on several games and i consider games today to be no challenge at all, i'm sure Diablo 3 wont be any different, atleast for me that is as these things comes natural to me. PvP is where the challenge is, esports feature gives you the sense of progression and improvement. Also, it leads to great communities with the same views as me and other hardcore players. Its not to boost egos, perhaps for you it is or others you've had contact with. Its for progression and improvement, from my point of view atleast. Its also a endless goal.
If its about personal progression, then why do you need to know my rating? What is the need for public ratings?
I am also curious as to why Diablo 3 needs to have these features. Especially when the developers specifically state they don't want them. There are plenty of game out there devoted to eSports already...Diablo 3 doesn't NEED to be another one. What is wrong with Blizzard just making the game they want to and you either enjoying it...or not and moving on?
Ecutruin: I'll explain alittle about my gaming background to get to the point as to why i want ratings and esports features. I've played more then most people in my life because i'm chronically sick. I've been pro/semi-pro on several games and i consider games today to be no challenge at all, i'm sure Diablo 3 wont be any different, atleast for me that is as these things comes natural to me. PvP is where the challenge is, esports feature gives you the sense of progression and improvement. Also, it leads to great communities with the same views as me and other hardcore players. Its not to boost egos, perhaps for you it is or others you've had contact with. Its for progression and improvement, from my point of view atleast. Its also a endless goal.
If its about personal progression, then why do you need to know my rating? What is the need for public ratings?
I am also curious as to why Diablo 3 needs to have these features. Especially when the developers specifically state they don't want them. There are plenty of game out there devoted to eSports already...Diablo 3 doesn't NEED to be another one. What is wrong with Blizzard just making the game they want to and you either enjoying it...or not and moving on?
Ratings are important, IMO. I mean, how do you measure your progress if you have no idea on how you are doing?
They could do leagues like SC2 (and the matchmaking system is already there, and owned by blizzard too!) bronze/silver/gold, etc. It would at least be something. I believe Jay talked about "pvp level" in an interview.. that is pretty worthless. You know that eventually everyone is going to max it, then what?
Ratings are important, IMO. I mean, how do you measure your progress if you have no idea on how you are doing?
They could do leagues like SC2 (and the matchmaking system is already there, and owned by blizzard too!) bronze/silver/gold, etc. It would at least be something. I believe Jay talked about "pvp level" in an interview.. that is pretty worthless. You know that eventually everyone is going to max it, then what?
Sure, you want to have ratings to tell how strong you are. However, why must those ratings be public at all? Knowing your own ranking should be able to be enough to let you know how well you're doing. You don't need to know that you are better or worse then the random guy ya joined.
I haven't read throu the thread so dont hate on me!
But I did read your conversation, and it seems as if you're friend can't accept that he's wrong, and that argument about LoL is just Gold.
I tried to make a similar statement awhile back but I just couldnt find a good comparision so thank you for that!
I don't have any problems with PvP being in a game like diablo the only thing that really ticks me off is that some random people claims that Diablo 2 was all about PvP when that's clearly not the case, you people are acting like blizzard OWE you guys to focus on pvp elements in a PvM game just because some part of the community from diablo 2 pvp'ed. And what I mean with you people, is simply people like this "Friend" guy, I've met alot of them, to many in fact.
I mean to demand pvp focus in a pvm game is like: I ate my TV once, so If you are going to make more TV's you damn better make them edible.
I'm in aggreement on this one, I don't have a problem with pvp, but I never saw Diablo a game centered around pvp, I saw it as a co-operative game center around team work, dedication to each other and a chance to see how far we can get together, Not how far we can get against each other.
I'm sorry, but I just don't agree. Just because Blizzard isn't adding ranking, and eSport features...somehow it's not PvP? I'm sorry, but that just isn't right. By definition, PvP is Player vs Player...and that is what Arena is. Just because you do not get added features to allow you to fluff your ego...doesn't make it a bad system.
As for my experience....I'd say research, play experience, talking to various people, etc...at least gives me a decent insight into the issue. The main thing is...I feel this need to have some means to put down other players is negative and not something we need in the game. I think the system Blizzard is building is a good design that promotes PvP play without promoting harassment.
You have yet to explain WHY you need some means to fluff your ego in order to have fun...why?
As for the reasons they have stated...the developers choosing not to develop two games (PvM and PvP) makes perfect sense. In order to balance PvP on its own, it would require an entire team devoted to balance specifically for PvP. This is not something Blizzard's developers wish to do. They want to focus their resources on PvM and continue to add awesome content. They want to put their resources towards the part of the game they feel is the central design.. PvM. How is that a bad thing?
I think you really underestimate the PvM community. I have a feeling that even the casual players will be playing this game for six months to a year. That is the completely casual player. Anyone that is actually a fan of the Diablo series will likely stick around for a few years as they try to complete Inferno with multiple characters, perfect their gear, get achievements, etc.
This isn't even considering the hardcore PvM players...
I'm sorry, but you're not likely to see Blizzard just change their stance on things. At most, they will offer private Arenas (without spectator or replay)...but you may already see that with the PvP patch (though I kinda hope not). The developers themselves do not want to turn Diablo 3 into a PvP focused game, so I highly doubt the community is going to change that. Especially when people have been complaining since the announcement and they have continued their path regardless.
I want to ask this question since you are so damn into what Diablo is about.
What is Starcraft 2? Or hell Starcraft for that matter?
The same concept can be applied to Diablo. Now you bitch and moan and cry that you are the majority (Congrats, really!). You are so scared and hateful toward the minority that we are not even allowed to have a conversation with each other about mechanics or modes we would like to see in the game to benefit not only US, but EVERYONE.
It is pretty ironic really, you bitch about the negativity that competitive gamers bring to the table, and yet your closed mindedness and elitist attitude toward how to play Diablo correctly is doing more damage then I have seen any elitist PvP'er do.
Ill say it again, hostility was amazing, because it gave me the ability to handle someone like you in my game. You run your mouth and I could take care of it, no problem. Now? Now you are protected, just how you want it. And no, this isn't about griefing, it is about putting loud mouthed ignorant people in their place, see you in game buddy.
Starcraft 2 is actually two games in one, in a sense. It's a multiplayer eSport game, where balance is incredibly important. On the flip side, Starcraft 2 is a game engine for custom games. Both of these avenues were very important to developers as they developed the game and they are using the game engine side for their own mini~games (Blizzard Dota for instance).
There is a clear difference between this design and the Design of Diablo 3. Starcraft 2 was intentionally designed to have a focus around both custom games and eSport balance. Diablo 3 was intentionally designed to have a focus around PvM with added PvP as an extra.
Honestly, comparing Starcraft II with Diablo 3 isn't a very good comparison since StarCraft 2 isn't remotely the same game design as Diablo 3. You'd be better off comparing Diablo 3 to World of Warcraft as they resemble each other's design quite well and World of Warcraft is a PvM focused game with added PvP.
There you go calling me scared, yet again. What do I possibly have to be scared of? Blizzard has stated that the game will be designed in a way that I actually really like. Why would I be scared of those that want competitive PvP?
The reason I keep posting is because you aren't discussing feature suggestions, you're complaining that Blizzard isn't making the game the way you want. You specifically tend to lash out, harassing people who disagree with you and bash Blizzard for their decisions. That isn't discussing...
If you want meaningful discussion, perhaps you shouldn't get so hostile. People aren't going to take you seriously when the moment they something that goes against what you want, you lash out at them.
in LoL, you dont want ppl to just farm creeps, bitch about ppl killing you. LoL is PVP ONLY, if you wanna PvM, play WoW dungeons/raids or Diablo 2 and farm shits up.
Same thing with Diablo 3. If you wanna lvl your hardcore character and finish up inferno, you dont want a pure imbalanced character to come over and 3 shot you because your build wasnt meant for PvP AND/OR you gears arent the BiS gears.
The ''Private game'' argument.... This isnt a solo mode game and your friend ARENT always online.... sometimes you gotta resolve to play with strangers. Adding a challenge mode isnt gonna solve the prob cuz some ppl will just spam your face with challenge and make mobs a lot strong while he furiously spam his challenge button doing nothing to help.
Hell blizz even said they may add Duels, ok you may not die but thats not the point. Hardcore arenas... dunno if they will make it... or if deaths will be permanent.... but if they do your friend's problem is solved. Now you might tell me ''what if their whole team just nukes you down?'' well, hostility was just the same Bullshit... ppl could just turn on hostility with you and team you down.
The game will be a success, it doesn't need features to allow people to fluff their ego in order to do so. Arena will offer a PvP system that the majority of players will enjoy immensely. Inferno offers a good PvM end~game that should remain challenging for the majority of players for many months. Hardcore Inferno is stated to be nearly impossible, offering an amazing challenge for those that really want a hard game.
I don't see how features like ranking that exist purely to allow people to belittle others...really help make the game better. In fact, I'd argue that they make the game worse...Blizzard seems to agree as they have stated they will not implement em.
I dunno, the pile of people commenting that they are looking forward to it...seems to indicate as such.
I believe this was posted by Bashiok. Doesn't specifically state no ranking but does specifically state no leagues or ladders. Seems like I'm right in that they have no intention on supporting that style of play.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Af6o7LvA5pA
There.. right at the beginning Jay specifically states they are not doing a ladder mode. So.. strike against PvM ranking.
There.. right at the beginning Jay specifically states that they will not have ranking in PvP. At most you will show the number of wins you have gotten. So.. strike against PvP ranking.
There ya go.. evidence given. It seems like there will be no ranked mode in the game period. So, can we move past ranked? They've also stated no eSports, no spectator mode, and not replays. So pretty much all the main features used for a competitive scene have been stated as no~go. The only thing left is custom~games and as of yet they are undecided on them (though they have stated that the players are a good reason NOT to implement em).
Its not like I pull my information out of thin air. Experience, research, and communicating with others.. I get my information from a wide array of sources. From such information I can honestly say that the majority of players do not want a competitive scene in Diablo 3. Blizzard seems to know this as well and are focusing away from that kind of PvP. I look forward to release of both PvM and PvP.. and expect I'll be playing the game for a rather long time.
If its about personal progression, then why do you need to know my rating? What is the need for public ratings?
I am also curious as to why Diablo 3 needs to have these features. Especially when the developers specifically state they don't want them. There are plenty of game out there devoted to eSports already...Diablo 3 doesn't NEED to be another one. What is wrong with Blizzard just making the game they want to and you either enjoying it...or not and moving on?
Ratings are important, IMO. I mean, how do you measure your progress if you have no idea on how you are doing?
They could do leagues like SC2 (and the matchmaking system is already there, and owned by blizzard too!) bronze/silver/gold, etc. It would at least be something. I believe Jay talked about "pvp level" in an interview.. that is pretty worthless. You know that eventually everyone is going to max it, then what?
Sure, you want to have ratings to tell how strong you are. However, why must those ratings be public at all? Knowing your own ranking should be able to be enough to let you know how well you're doing. You don't need to know that you are better or worse then the random guy ya joined.
I'm in aggreement on this one, I don't have a problem with pvp, but I never saw Diablo a game centered around pvp, I saw it as a co-operative game center around team work, dedication to each other and a chance to see how far we can get together, Not how far we can get against each other.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ndstad?feature=mhee
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