Really, cause my entire YEARS of playing D1, and D2, we always had tons, and tons, and tons, of dueling games. When You looked up the server list, it was duels trading and running locations (chaos, cows etc)
1/3 of those games are not represented, the trade is being moved to GAH/RMAH
Do you KNOW the numbers of the pvp community? No you dont, you're speaking out of your ass. Until blizzard gives you a number, you speaking 110% out of your ass.
also im not putting my nose in the air, I gave you the source, where's his saying PvE was small?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Really, cause my entire YEARS of playing D1, and D2, we always had tons, and tons, and tons, of dueling games. When You looked up the server list, it was duels trading and running locations (chaos, cows etc)
1/3 of those games are not represented, the trade is being moved to GAH/RMAH
Do you KNOW the numbers of the pvp community? No you dont, you're speaking out of your ass. Until blizzard gives you a number, you speaking 110% out of your ass.
No, I'm speaking from experience. The majority of games the last time I was on Diablo 2 the majority of the games were still PvM. Trist runs, Cow runs, Baal runs, MF runs, Fresh play-throughs, etc. Did I ever say that dueling and PvP didn't exist in D1/D2? No, I don't believe that I did. What I did say (which is the truth) is that the focus of the Diablo series has always been PvM.
Why the insulting and rage? I'm not insulting you. I'm just explaining the situation from my perspective, based on Blizzard's statements, my personal experience, and my observations from the community. Perhaps you can try being rational and explaining why your opinions would lead to a better game/community?
This attitude that many of the PvP crowd seem to have is a perfect example of why many of us in the PvM crowd do not want to see more competitive features added to the game. eSports have fostered this elitism and entitlement among PvP players that creates a very negative environment. I love watching various eSports commentators, however, I don't like dealing with a lot of the community it has created.
I see a lot of flaming and trolling going on in here. Keep it civil. If someone else is getting out of hand, report them and ignore it. Do not take it upon yourself to respond to them, it'll only get you in trouble as well.
You're still talking from your self experience, trying to pass it off as truth, that's the problem. You said the PvP community is small, you dont have those numbers to back it up, and because it's small it doesnt get the attention that it deserves.
You think PvP is the reason there is elitism?
Gearscore? Harsh raid recruitment, trolling, flaming ALL happen within pve as well.
"Oh that lock cant pull xxxxxx dps, fuck that scrub, kick him"
^ something that occurs everyday, EVERYDAY in PvE. Abuse of vote kick, and raid lead, happens PURELY on PvE. The PvE crowd looks in the mirror and can only see perfection. Apparently we made you guys assholes and elitists? Cause gearscore and DPS meters came from PvP players?
hah, hahahaha that's laughable. Competitive features? Guess what, your PvE crowd invented a vast majority of them. All we want to do is kill eachother, and want rankings, that's it.
You think this same sort of elitism wont occur in PvM? You've lost your mind. People will vote kick ( if they add it ) or just leave games because someone is bringing them down. When someone joins, shit gets harder, if they dont help you, you're going to stay and die? No, most will leave, rage, tell them off, vote kick etc etc. But, thats only because PvP players fostered this growth of hate right?
Diablo is about killing monsters, killing each other, and trading. If you cant support those 3 things, it is NOT diablo. This apparently leads to all the PvM'ers raging saying "JUST CAUSE I DIDNT KILL PLAYERS, THAT MEANS PVP IS NOT A INTEGRAL PART OF DIABLO".
^Dat logic.
The problem is, I defend your right to kill monsters, you don't defend my right to kill players. Then you insult us as a whole, saying we are some necrotic force on gaming. Which is just pathetic.
The only "minority" blizzard refers to in discussion of PvP is the hardcore PvP players. That's it. jay Wilson wants to support them too.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
I never said that PvE in other games is perfect. However, I can say that in Diablo 3...PvM doesn't have those features anyways. So, where's your argument there? However, the PvP features you desire DO create such elitist behavior as well. So I'd honestly rather they stay out of the game as well. Blizzard seems to agree with me from what they've said.
As for speaking from my experience...what would you have me do? Yes, from my experience, the PvM crowd in the Diablo series has always been the majority. Seems to ring true for many others that have posted, hence my confidence. In addition, others have stated that Blizzard had done polls to find out this exact issue. However, I myself cannot seem to locate them. Since many others that have been rational have stated these polls sided with PvM and my experience says PvM is the majority...it makes sense that I'd be confident that I'm right in this regard.
As a compromise though, how about a feature to allow a player to see their own individual matchmaking ranking? You wouldn't be able to see anyone else's ranking...but you would be able to judge how well you are doing compared to everyone in general. This allows people to have a personal sense of accomplishment while not allowing them to hold it over others, fair deal?
You think this same sort of elitism wont occur in PvM? You've lost your mind. People will vote kick ( if they add it ) or just leave games because someone is bringing them down. When someone joins, shit gets harder, if they dont help you, you're going to stay and die? No, most will leave, rage, tell them off, vote kick etc etc. But, thats only because PvP players fostered this growth of hate right?
Further in D2 there was a ladder, a ranking system that fostered the competitive nature of the game.
If you think having a ladder, or a ranking system leads to elitist behaviour, then there is no point continuing this conversation with you.
It creates competition, how an individual acts or behaves is their own doing. The creation of an in game ladder does not MAKE an individual an elitist asshole, the elitist asshole makes himself an elitist asshole.
I was in school, and I had to get a certain % to pass, I got a 71, and because of that I'm now a serial killer.
^ makes about as much sense as, a video game has a ranking system, so because of that I'm an elitist asshole.
The logic train has left the station for you, and that shit derailed.
All PvP players want is the ability to PvP and a ranking system, for competition, to see where in the global scheme of things we are. If you're the best PvP team in the world for 3's in D3, that would be a cool thing to know. How that group wears the crown of best pvp team is up to them, just because they are the best doesnt mean they have to act like elitist assholes. that call is up to them. Just because there is a ranking system, doesnt make them elitist assholes.
Further, most top tier pro players, are not assholes, are extremely informative, and are very helpful when you talk to them, and they wear the crowns. When you become a top tier player you enter a respect club for the most part, there are very few "Idra" players in the top tier scene.
and if you dont know who Idra is, he is a top tier sc2 player who rages, calls everyone retarded, when he gets stomped by toss or terran he calls it imbalanced, when he plays ZvZ he calls it stupid, and has a history of not being able to control his rage to the point where he will leave games, that he has actually won. He is just your general elitist, raging idiot. Pro players ( a long with everyone else except Idra fanboys ) make fun of him all the time for his attitude.
Your solution is votekick, which was in beta at one point, but didnt work. I havent looked into, or heard any word on that system in recent times. Guess we find out at launch.
You remove a PvP griefer, the same way you remove a PvE one, the boot.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Nope, tons and tons and tons of full duel games. People would wait at Act 1 encampment bridge and go out and fight, group or 1v1. Take turns calling each other out. And there were far more than you think there was.
Just because you're ignorant to the PvP side doesnt mean it did not exist. I did both, a lot of both. I know.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Quote from name=%26amp%3B%2339%3BMac_an_tSaoir%26amp%3B%2339%3B timestamp="1332691315" post="806628" »
The duelers that spent hours and hours and hours and hours dueling and not PvM'ing would like to have a word with you. As would the Hardcore duelers.
Like I've stated before, when you searched for games at D2 prime, it was "Trade/Duel/Run x location"
If you cant understand that, there is no hope for you.
And Run X location = 8 players. Duel = 1 or 2... and Run X = 8x the games.
Actually, not true. Duel games were constantly and consistently full. Not to mention the hidden duel games that were all private which is were the real dueling and not casual dueling took place. The PvP community is much larger then Blizzard and PvM'ers care to come to terms with. It is ok though, cause when PvP is ruined in Diablo 3 they will most likely just grief and ruin your PvM gameplay cause they are bored.
You mean like they did in your ideal model of diablo 2 where they had what you consider PvP already?
I must say that it was quite fun when you were simply trying to play the game for the game and some faggot grifer would join and spam hostile/kill your party. Oh wait... it wasn't....
Do people not realize the obvious compromises??? Both parties are arguing over completely different things, but if you look you can see that we can obviously make both parties happy.
Agreed. Someone else posted about the private dueling games and they were right. In diablo 2's hey day/prime/peak w/e you want to call it. you could log on and try to join in like this
Game name: Dueling
Password: Dueling
Game is full
Game name: Dueling1
Password: Dueling1
Game is full
Game name: Dueling2
Password: Dueling2
Game is full
or any varation there of until you finally got into one not full. I like both PvM and PvP so either way i'm gonna be happy. =/
Honestly, on the issue of PvM being more popular then PvP...you people seem oblivious due to the fact that you probably focused on playing PvP. I personally did both, PvP and PvM quite heavily in Diablo 2. There were always way way more PvM based games then there was PvP games. MF runs, trist runs, rushes, baal runs, etc still to this day dominate the game list from what I understand. In addition to that, there were MANY MANY private games that PvM players made purely because they didn't want griefing. I won't say PvP wasn't popular, far from it...but it was a minority compared to PvM.
I don't know what is so hard to grasp about the simple idea that Blizzard already made the decision to focus Diablo 3 on PvM. Its not something you, me, or anyone arguing about it is going to change. To Blizzard, those that want eSport features are a minority...this means that they will have less reason to implement said features purely because the majority of their players either don't care or don't want said features. How is it a good idea for Blizzard to invest in said features under this situation?
Now, that said...they did push back PvP. There was hints that MLG might be showcasing PvP this year at their venue. So who knows, maybe you PvP'ers will be pleasantly surprised that they did more with PvP then they've talked about. I wouldn't hold my breath as Jay was pretty adamant about adding ladder and such features...but maybe. Honestly, I wouldn't even care that much. I'd focus on the PvM gameplay I bought the game for anyways.
I will say though, that if we start seeing PvM balance/gameplay changes to satisfy PvP balance/gameplay I will be upset. I don't want the game revolving around PvP at all. I purchased this game to enjoy the over the top abilities and awesome story. The PvM should never be given a backseat to PvP in any Diablo game.
As I suggested in the past, letting people see their personal rating would let them know where they are in a ladder style fashion...without them being able to look up someone else's rating. This lets people ignore the ratings if they want, and strive to be the best if they want. I'd say it'd give the best of both worlds.
If Diablo becomes an eSports it WILL NOT affect the PvM part of the game, Blizzard will make sure of that. It seems to me that all the PvM players are whining about getting there toes stepped on when in fact the PvM players are stabbing us in the back. I would like to sit in a room with the PvP'ers and me on one side and the PvM'ers on the other and see what happens, it is pretty hard to judge someone when you not face to face. WoW was not meant for eSports but it happened and it is still as popular as ever (till MoP was announced).
As Mac said we defend your right to kill monsters but you won't defend our right to kill each other and have rankings.
We can have both, those that like PvM can do boss runs and inferno. PvP players just want to kill each other and have rankings. Why are rankings so bad? I have had negative K/D sores in almost every game I have ever played but I still love PvP. I would like to know who the best player is and give him some credit. No MMO game can just be casual it is just as competitive in PvM as it is in PvP.
If Diablo becomes an eSports it WILL NOT affect the PvM part of the game, Blizzard will make sure of that. It seems to me that all the PvM players are whining about getting there toes stepped on when in fact the PvM players are stabbing us in the back. I would like to sit in a room with the PvP'ers and me on one side and the PvM'ers on the other and see what happens, it is pretty hard to judge someone when you not face to face. WoW was not meant for eSports but it happened and it is still as popular as ever (till MoP was announced). As Mac said we defend your right to kill monsters but you won't defend our right to kill each other and have rankings. We can have both, those that like PvM can do boss runs and inferno. PvP players just want to kill each other and have rankings. Why are rankings so bad? I have had negative K/D sores in almost every game I have ever played but I still love PvP. I would like to know who the best player is and give him some credit. No MMO game can just be casual it is just as competitive in PvM as it is in PvP.
As I said, I support your right for personal ratings. I don't support you seeing my rating, or anyone else's rating. This gives the best of both worlds, but letting you see how you personally do in PvP to help yourself improve, while letting me just ignore ratings and play for fun without anyone bothering me about it.
It seems that you didn't play early WoW though. There were a lot of very fun chance on hit equipment, flashy spells, etc.. that got reworked and/or cut from the game because Blizzard tried to make competitive PvP in WoW. This is why many of us are uneasy about PvP affecting PvM. We've seen what happens to a Blizzard game that tries to focus on both PvM and PvP. Its got a history of not working that well (in WoW's case.. PvP has a lot of issues AND we lost a bunch from PvM).
I'm all for optional features in Diablo 3 like spectator, team vs team, duels, specific zone wold PvP or mutual hostile mode, etc. However, if those features become something I have to participate in...I cannot support it. I want to be able to play the game for fun and ignore the more competitive elements if I so choose. This is why I suggest personal stats. Lets me ignore them, and you have them...seems like the best of both worlds to me.
I don't see why this has to be a court case between PvP'ers and PvM'ers, especially since Diablo is a PvE-centric game. If you haven't accepted that it's a PvE game, good luck to you.
No game in history without PvP in its release has ever become an E-Sport, period.
You lot should be downright gratefull to blizzard for including some kind of PvP in Diablo 3, Since it's first and foremost a player(s) vs envoirment game.
Iam not saying screw PvP but iam not saying that they should make the PvP aspect of the game an priority either, Iam just happy that they add that and I see it as an extra, and TBH if you buy D3 for the sole reason of PvP'ing, You WILL get dissapointed.
If Diablo 3 doesn't even have Dueling or world PvP, then you're basically being grateful to Blizzard for them taking this epic series two steps backwards. Hell, if they cut even more than they cut already, you would be practically moonwalking.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Some people tell me I'm going to hell. I just let them know that I've already packed my bags!
This is for ecutruin, for the ratings they should just make a little switch so you can hide or show your own ranking if you want to or not.
I think I am done though I have made my point on this thread and my own threads and me and ecutruin have pretty much "boiled it down" (took days to do it lol). You guys should check it out, a lot of good facts and points on both sides. (Diablo 3 an eSports?).
I dont think you need to be putting your nose up in the air agaisnt everything people are saying here.
And pretty much what ecutruin said.
1/3 of those games are not represented, the trade is being moved to GAH/RMAH
Do you KNOW the numbers of the pvp community? No you dont, you're speaking out of your ass. Until blizzard gives you a number, you speaking 110% out of your ass.
also im not putting my nose in the air, I gave you the source, where's his saying PvE was small?
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
No, I'm speaking from experience. The majority of games the last time I was on Diablo 2 the majority of the games were still PvM. Trist runs, Cow runs, Baal runs, MF runs, Fresh play-throughs, etc. Did I ever say that dueling and PvP didn't exist in D1/D2? No, I don't believe that I did. What I did say (which is the truth) is that the focus of the Diablo series has always been PvM.
Why the insulting and rage? I'm not insulting you. I'm just explaining the situation from my perspective, based on Blizzard's statements, my personal experience, and my observations from the community. Perhaps you can try being rational and explaining why your opinions would lead to a better game/community?
This attitude that many of the PvP crowd seem to have is a perfect example of why many of us in the PvM crowd do not want to see more competitive features added to the game. eSports have fostered this elitism and entitlement among PvP players that creates a very negative environment. I love watching various eSports commentators, however, I don't like dealing with a lot of the community it has created.
You think PvP is the reason there is elitism?
Gearscore? Harsh raid recruitment, trolling, flaming ALL happen within pve as well.
"Oh that lock cant pull xxxxxx dps, fuck that scrub, kick him"
^ something that occurs everyday, EVERYDAY in PvE. Abuse of vote kick, and raid lead, happens PURELY on PvE. The PvE crowd looks in the mirror and can only see perfection. Apparently we made you guys assholes and elitists? Cause gearscore and DPS meters came from PvP players?
hah, hahahaha that's laughable. Competitive features? Guess what, your PvE crowd invented a vast majority of them. All we want to do is kill eachother, and want rankings, that's it.
You think this same sort of elitism wont occur in PvM? You've lost your mind. People will vote kick ( if they add it ) or just leave games because someone is bringing them down. When someone joins, shit gets harder, if they dont help you, you're going to stay and die? No, most will leave, rage, tell them off, vote kick etc etc. But, thats only because PvP players fostered this growth of hate right?
Diablo is about killing monsters, killing each other, and trading. If you cant support those 3 things, it is NOT diablo. This apparently leads to all the PvM'ers raging saying "JUST CAUSE I DIDNT KILL PLAYERS, THAT MEANS PVP IS NOT A INTEGRAL PART OF DIABLO".
^Dat logic.
The problem is, I defend your right to kill monsters, you don't defend my right to kill players. Then you insult us as a whole, saying we are some necrotic force on gaming. Which is just pathetic.
The only "minority" blizzard refers to in discussion of PvP is the hardcore PvP players. That's it. jay Wilson wants to support them too.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
As for speaking from my experience...what would you have me do? Yes, from my experience, the PvM crowd in the Diablo series has always been the majority. Seems to ring true for many others that have posted, hence my confidence. In addition, others have stated that Blizzard had done polls to find out this exact issue. However, I myself cannot seem to locate them. Since many others that have been rational have stated these polls sided with PvM and my experience says PvM is the majority...it makes sense that I'd be confident that I'm right in this regard.
As a compromise though, how about a feature to allow a player to see their own individual matchmaking ranking? You wouldn't be able to see anyone else's ranking...but you would be able to judge how well you are doing compared to everyone in general. This allows people to have a personal sense of accomplishment while not allowing them to hold it over others, fair deal?
You think this same sort of elitism wont occur in PvM? You've lost your mind. People will vote kick ( if they add it ) or just leave games because someone is bringing them down. When someone joins, shit gets harder, if they dont help you, you're going to stay and die? No, most will leave, rage, tell them off, vote kick etc etc. But, thats only because PvP players fostered this growth of hate right?
Further in D2 there was a ladder, a ranking system that fostered the competitive nature of the game.
If you think having a ladder, or a ranking system leads to elitist behaviour, then there is no point continuing this conversation with you.
It creates competition, how an individual acts or behaves is their own doing. The creation of an in game ladder does not MAKE an individual an elitist asshole, the elitist asshole makes himself an elitist asshole.
I was in school, and I had to get a certain % to pass, I got a 71, and because of that I'm now a serial killer.
^ makes about as much sense as, a video game has a ranking system, so because of that I'm an elitist asshole.
The logic train has left the station for you, and that shit derailed.
All PvP players want is the ability to PvP and a ranking system, for competition, to see where in the global scheme of things we are. If you're the best PvP team in the world for 3's in D3, that would be a cool thing to know. How that group wears the crown of best pvp team is up to them, just because they are the best doesnt mean they have to act like elitist assholes. that call is up to them. Just because there is a ranking system, doesnt make them elitist assholes.
Further, most top tier pro players, are not assholes, are extremely informative, and are very helpful when you talk to them, and they wear the crowns. When you become a top tier player you enter a respect club for the most part, there are very few "Idra" players in the top tier scene.
and if you dont know who Idra is, he is a top tier sc2 player who rages, calls everyone retarded, when he gets stomped by toss or terran he calls it imbalanced, when he plays ZvZ he calls it stupid, and has a history of not being able to control his rage to the point where he will leave games, that he has actually won. He is just your general elitist, raging idiot. Pro players ( a long with everyone else except Idra fanboys ) make fun of him all the time for his attitude.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-kBxbbtYZc
^ for reference
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
You remove a PvP griefer, the same way you remove a PvE one, the boot.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Like I've stated before, when you searched for games at D2 prime, it was "Trade/Duel/Run x location"
If you cant understand that, there is no hope for you.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
And Run X location = 8 players. Duel = 1 or 2... and Run X = 8x the games.
Just because you're ignorant to the PvP side doesnt mean it did not exist. I did both, a lot of both. I know.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
You mean like they did in your ideal model of diablo 2 where they had what you consider PvP already?
I must say that it was quite fun when you were simply trying to play the game for the game and some faggot grifer would join and spam hostile/kill your party. Oh wait... it wasn't....
Agreed. Someone else posted about the private dueling games and they were right. In diablo 2's hey day/prime/peak w/e you want to call it. you could log on and try to join in like this
Game name: Dueling
Password: Dueling
Game is full
Game name: Dueling1
Password: Dueling1
Game is full
Game name: Dueling2
Password: Dueling2
Game is full
or any varation there of until you finally got into one not full. I like both PvM and PvP so either way i'm gonna be happy. =/
I don't know what is so hard to grasp about the simple idea that Blizzard already made the decision to focus Diablo 3 on PvM. Its not something you, me, or anyone arguing about it is going to change. To Blizzard, those that want eSport features are a minority...this means that they will have less reason to implement said features purely because the majority of their players either don't care or don't want said features. How is it a good idea for Blizzard to invest in said features under this situation?
Now, that said...they did push back PvP. There was hints that MLG might be showcasing PvP this year at their venue. So who knows, maybe you PvP'ers will be pleasantly surprised that they did more with PvP then they've talked about. I wouldn't hold my breath as Jay was pretty adamant about adding ladder and such features...but maybe. Honestly, I wouldn't even care that much. I'd focus on the PvM gameplay I bought the game for anyways.
I will say though, that if we start seeing PvM balance/gameplay changes to satisfy PvP balance/gameplay I will be upset. I don't want the game revolving around PvP at all. I purchased this game to enjoy the over the top abilities and awesome story. The PvM should never be given a backseat to PvP in any Diablo game.
As I suggested in the past, letting people see their personal rating would let them know where they are in a ladder style fashion...without them being able to look up someone else's rating. This lets people ignore the ratings if they want, and strive to be the best if they want. I'd say it'd give the best of both worlds.
As Mac said we defend your right to kill monsters but you won't defend our right to kill each other and have rankings.
We can have both, those that like PvM can do boss runs and inferno. PvP players just want to kill each other and have rankings. Why are rankings so bad? I have had negative K/D sores in almost every game I have ever played but I still love PvP. I would like to know who the best player is and give him some credit. No MMO game can just be casual it is just as competitive in PvM as it is in PvP.
As I said, I support your right for personal ratings. I don't support you seeing my rating, or anyone else's rating. This gives the best of both worlds, but letting you see how you personally do in PvP to help yourself improve, while letting me just ignore ratings and play for fun without anyone bothering me about it.
It seems that you didn't play early WoW though. There were a lot of very fun chance on hit equipment, flashy spells, etc.. that got reworked and/or cut from the game because Blizzard tried to make competitive PvP in WoW. This is why many of us are uneasy about PvP affecting PvM. We've seen what happens to a Blizzard game that tries to focus on both PvM and PvP. Its got a history of not working that well (in WoW's case.. PvP has a lot of issues AND we lost a bunch from PvM).
I'm all for optional features in Diablo 3 like spectator, team vs team, duels, specific zone wold PvP or mutual hostile mode, etc. However, if those features become something I have to participate in...I cannot support it. I want to be able to play the game for fun and ignore the more competitive elements if I so choose. This is why I suggest personal stats. Lets me ignore them, and you have them...seems like the best of both worlds to me.
No game in history without PvP in its release has ever become an E-Sport, period.
If Diablo 3 doesn't even have Dueling or world PvP, then you're basically being grateful to Blizzard for them taking this epic series two steps backwards. Hell, if they cut even more than they cut already, you would be practically moonwalking.
I think I am done though I have made my point on this thread and my own threads and me and ecutruin have pretty much "boiled it down" (took days to do it lol). You guys should check it out, a lot of good facts and points on both sides. (Diablo 3 an eSports?).