Judging from my experience with Blizzard games (since diablo 1 and on), there has been 1 dominant trend that has really held back their overall enjoyment and, in my opinion, done a huge disservice to their fan community. That trend is the war between "PvP" and "PvE." Let me preface this by stating that I am an avid PvPer, and that is what I play Blizzard titles for. But before marginalizing me as another elitist PvPers who only cares about razor edge balance and maximum e-peen, I'll also say that I do enjoy PvE (or PvM for d2ers), especially in Diablo 2. Without PvM it would just suck, pure and simple. The game acquires it's flavor from a great mix of PvM and PvP.
That's enough about me. My question is: why can't we have the best of both worlds?
Would it really be that difficult to design a portion of the game for avid PvPers, and a portion of the game for avid PvMers? Wouldn't that add to the overall enjoyment of the game for everyone? I understand that there are concerns. For example balance changes for PvP in World of Warcraft affecting PvE, or vice-versa. But there are ALWAYS solutions, and they really are not that difficult to implement. For the above dilemma, simply adding different effects for abilities in PvE and PvP would be a simple design decision in extreme cases where certain abilities are simply blatantly overpowered in PvP, but balanced and fun in PvE.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we're all interested in the same thing here. We all want the absolute best all-around game possible. Of course there are aspects of the game that are more important for each of us, and that is probably why PvPers are so upset right now because, let's be honest, the most recent info is less than promising. So instead of fighting each other, let's work together and brainstorm some ideas so that PvM and PvP can coincide and formulate the best Diablo 3 possible.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
Well changing skill effect completely for PvP is bad idea.. but they already said they can change numbers for PvP..like stun duration, damage or cooldown.. But I think.. point is..with so many different combinations of skills, runes, gear, passive, enchants and with so many RNG... there is no way how to balance PvP..
Ok..you could possible give everyone same gear... but.. for which spec? We know every spec needs different gear..so ho many sets of gear you will create? And will you allow use this gear outside of PvP? There are so many things you have to deal with that focusing on PvP doesn't make even sense.
too bad atleast balance out the dmg/stuns/slows etc and provide a competitive(as much as possible) scene with rankings win/loss k/d last man standing
gear in an RPG is part of PvP so who the hell cares doesn't mean they should forget about pvp
You'll sit down and play the game Jay wants you to play (after Rob's last-minute arbitrary changes, of course), like it, and say "thank you sir may I have another?"
The problem with separating skill effects for PvE and PvP is that it creates confusion, especially for the players that won't PvP very often and therefore won't get used to the PvP specific effects. It is much easier for most players to learn how the skills work if they have near identical effects in PvE. With that said they are not turning their backs to PvP balance completely. Both cooldowns and crowd control durations are adjusted for PvP, but not damage and the basic function of the skill.
The only thing that makes me a little sad is that they won't support additional PvP modes. I would love to play some Capture the Flag and King of the Hill, but that won't be possible. When the goal is not simply to kill the opponent there are some significant advantages to playing certain classes/builds. I hope that they will come up with some game modes that are balanced enough to be included in the future, even if none of them are of the conventional type we are used to.
Ughhhhhhh I hate games that are so focused on casuals
let them god damn learn the game instead of simplifying everything
how stupid does blizzard think our gaming generation is? I'm guessing 80IQ> average
The 2 points that I have come across so far as to why a respectable PvP system can not be implemented alongside PvE are:
1) Because Jay Wilson wants Diablo 3 to be a "PvE driven" game
2) Because it would be too complicated to implement a respectable PvP system alongside PvE.
Let's address both points:
1) There is absolutely nothing wrong with Diablo 3 being "PvE driven." I would actually (personal note here) prefer D3 being PvE driven. I.e. obtaining items from PvE and using them in PvP. This points hits directly at the heart of this post. Why does PvE and PvP have to be at odds? Why can't we have the best of both worlds and achieve an amazing well rounded game.
2) The complication argument is completely subjective and should never be used in a game where there is something like (what's the latest numbers?) 6 trillion combinations of build possibilities? Complication, or what I would call OPTIONS, are what make this game great. And please don't speak for an entire group of people (i.e. "casuals") and say that they wouldn't be able to HANDLE a more complex system. I completely disagree and think anyone who would make such a generalization is simply ignorant of the player base of Diablo. Regardless, if casuals find the PvP abilities too complicated they will not be forced to participate. Anyone can simply choose to avoid PvP altogether!
Again, there is simply no reason a great PvP and PvE system can not coincide together to formulate the best Diablo 3 possible.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
That's enough about me. My question is: why can't we have the best of both worlds?
But there are ALWAYS solutions, and they really are not that difficult to implement. .
Not difficult to implant? if it wasn't then pvp wouldn't have kept ruining the pve balance and vice versa i WoW... expecting players that maybe play 2-5 hours per week to adjust to different skill stats/effects every time they switch from pve to pvp kind of goes against the whole idea the Dev's have for the Diablo series.
That's enough about me. My question is: why can't we have the best of both worlds?
But there are ALWAYS solutions, and they really are not that difficult to implement. .
Not difficult to implant? if it wasn't then pvp wouldn't have kept ruining the pve balance and vice versa i WoW... expecting players that maybe play 2-5 hours per week to adjust to different skill stats/effects every time they switch from pve to pvp kind of goes against the whole idea the Dev's have for the Diablo series.
You do realize that we're talking about having different ability effects for PvP (if necessary), therefore it would have no effect on PvE. Explain to me what responsibilities the Diablo 3 "PvP team" would have other than designing PvP only ability effects (again, if it's even necessary on an ability-to-ability basis) and maintaining a respectable ladder system. I think they can handle it. Unless of course it really is 2 guys playing darts all day getting paid for it, like I suspect.
If the Diablo 3 "PvP team" has one tenth as much design talent as the other developers I have a tremendous amount of confidence that PvP in Diablo III has the potential to be absolutely fantastic, while maintaining every bit of it's PvE integrity.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
That's enough about me. My question is: why can't we have the best of both worlds?
But there are ALWAYS solutions, and they really are not that difficult to implement. .
Not difficult to implant? if it wasn't then pvp wouldn't have kept ruining the pve balance and vice versa i WoW... expecting players that maybe play 2-5 hours per week to adjust to different skill stats/effects every time they switch from pve to pvp kind of goes against the whole idea the Dev's have for the Diablo series.
You do realize that we're talking about having different ability effects for PvP (if necessary), therefore it would have no effect on PvE. Explain to me what responsibilities the Diablo 3 "PvP team" would have other than designing PvP only ability effects (again, if it's even necessary on an ability-to-ability basis) and maintaining a respectable ladder system. I think they can handle it. Unless of course it really is 2 guys playing darts all day getting paid for it, like I suspect.
Read my post again.
"expecting players that maybe play 2-5 hours per week to adjust to different skill stats/effects every time they switch from pve to pvp"
You want them to make some skills act differently in PVP then in PVE, this creates a problem for casual players that play the game very little to adjust, if it was that easy they would have done this is WoW a long time ago, there are other limitations then just the technical ones to get a system to work, and in many cases its the players them self.
Maybe they will make PVP more serious down the line but i somehow doubt it since they have WoW and SC2 for that, its probably not worth the headache for them.
That's enough about me. My question is: why can't we have the best of both worlds?
But there are ALWAYS solutions, and they really are not that difficult to implement. .
Not difficult to implant? if it wasn't then pvp wouldn't have kept ruining the pve balance and vice versa i WoW... expecting players that maybe play 2-5 hours per week to adjust to different skill stats/effects every time they switch from pve to pvp kind of goes against the whole idea the Dev's have for the Diablo series.
You do realize that we're talking about having different ability effects for PvP (if necessary), therefore it would have no effect on PvE. Explain to me what responsibilities the Diablo 3 "PvP team" would have other than designing PvP only ability effects (again, if it's even necessary on an ability-to-ability basis) and maintaining a respectable ladder system. I think they can handle it. Unless of course it really is 2 guys playing darts all day getting paid for it, like I suspect.
Read my post again.
"expecting players that maybe play 2-5 hours per week to adjust to different skill stats/effects every time they switch from pve to pvp"
You want them to make some skills act differently in PVP then in PVE, this creates a problem for casual players that play the game very little to adjust, if it was that easy they would have done this is WoW a long time ago, there are other limitations then just the technical ones to get a system to work, and in many cases its the players them self.
Maybe they will make PVP more serious down the line but i somehow doubt it since they have WoW and SC2 for that, its probably not worth the headache for them.
If it's too difficult for someone THEY DON'T HAVE TO PvP!
PROBLEM SOLVED!
The "complication" argument is COMPLETELY subjective and could be used for literally any aspect of this game. I.e. the rune system is "too complicated" for casuals. Would you like to do away with that as well?
(Obviously a rhetorical question to illustrate the point.)
It's actually mildly irritating that you would suggest that because there is a portion of the player base (even if it is a fictitious population in your head) that would have some slight difficulty understanding some new abilities for PvP that EVERYONE'S gameplay should be limited to what we currently have (team deathmatch, yuck). Do you not realize the insulting nature of your point to those of us who desire a respectable PvP system?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To Jay Wilson and everyone else: Diablo 3 can be competitive without being an E-Sport.
That's enough about me. My question is: why can't we have the best of both worlds?
But there are ALWAYS solutions, and they really are not that difficult to implement. .
Not difficult to implant? if it wasn't then pvp wouldn't have kept ruining the pve balance and vice versa i WoW... expecting players that maybe play 2-5 hours per week to adjust to different skill stats/effects every time they switch from pve to pvp kind of goes against the whole idea the Dev's have for the Diablo series.
You do realize that we're talking about having different ability effects for PvP (if necessary), therefore it would have no effect on PvE. Explain to me what responsibilities the Diablo 3 "PvP team" would have other than designing PvP only ability effects (again, if it's even necessary on an ability-to-ability basis) and maintaining a respectable ladder system. I think they can handle it. Unless of course it really is 2 guys playing darts all day getting paid for it, like I suspect.
Read my post again.
"expecting players that maybe play 2-5 hours per week to adjust to different skill stats/effects every time they switch from pve to pvp"
You want them to make some skills act differently in PVP then in PVE, this creates a problem for casual players that play the game very little to adjust, if it was that easy they would have done this is WoW a long time ago, there are other limitations then just the technical ones to get a system to work, and in many cases its the players them self.
Maybe they will make PVP more serious down the line but i somehow doubt it since they have WoW and SC2 for that, its probably not worth the headache for them.
If it's too difficult for someone THEY DON'T HAVE TO PvP!
PROBLEM SOLVED!
The "complication" argument is COMPLETELY subjective and could be used for literally any aspect of this game. I.e. the rune system is "too complicated" for casuals. Would you like to do away with that as well?
(Obviously a rhetorical question to illustrate the point.)
That is exactly why they are not sure about the new random rune system yet, since it has not been implanted.
Blizzard is all about being user/casual friendly, your idea is quite the opposite and if it would have been that easy it would have been implanted itheirer "other" game to prevent balance issues, but thehaven'tnt and that is for a reason.
"The "complication" argument is COMPLETELY subjective and could be used for literally any aspect of this game" - That is true and some of the mechanics in the game has been already changed because of that.
I don't think anyone here is truly asking for more balance in this thread (There may be a couple.) What people really want though is something to strive for in the arena, aka. making it a little more competitive. This can be achieved With any sort of ranking system. If people, including Jay Wilson, are so bent on keeping it from turning into an E-sport, then simply implement a system like how Battlegrounds were in Vanilla WoW. Ranks based off of dedication and performance. It would be better if they made a ladder in-game that people can compete in.
And before I get attacked about how they wouldn't do that because it'll show the imbalance, look at any game on the market with a competitive multi-player, besides Counter-Strike (Incoming massive flame storm) and tell me if they are in any way balanced to the point where nothing stands out on the leaderboards. Starcraft 2 has the Terrans (though recent patches may have overbuffed the zerg, I haven't payed attention enough recently,) based off my gladiator friends on Darkspear US for WoW, Warlocks and Shaman dominate, with Mages slightly under, etc..
TLDR: Need a ranking system in PvP, there is almost no completely balanced game.
Charlondo724, while I don't ultimately disagree with you, you have to understand when you have "a bit competitive environment" like arenas, ladder etc... People will demand balance. And Diablo just can't be balanced. There is no way to achieve it.
I am not saying they will never add ladder or classic arenas and ranking, but I see why they don't want to do it.
fucking broken records
will you stop quoting Jay wilson
they can easily say "PvP isn't our main issue" and no that's not something conflictive
Keep it up Diisfunk and Lafu. Haven't disagreed with one of your posts yet but I don't have the effort to debate the masses of "PvE for lifers" who offer the same clueless rebuttal without reading the initial post. The effort is applauded.
Now I've read through all of your posts, Heard some interesting things. I'm not saying I don't want PvP or rankings, or ladders, or balance But here is my point of view. I don't give a shit about it right now tbh. I want this game to be out this year, Adding more modes, and features takes money and time that they are seriously losing. I want to just play the story for the game with every class and a bunch of build combos already, then when I'm tired and they've added more modes, feature like they said they'd do later on then I'll start PvPing casually with my main focus as a PvE'r. In no way shape or form does Jay ever say he doesn't want it to be competitive, he just wants to think it over, and wants to make sure that what he does doesn't turn into flames against blizzard for providing you with something then never following through. I understand him 100% and think they are making the right choice, polish the story get the game out then worry about everything else. Because ten years is just too long and Soon can't come soon enough.
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Not even Death will save you from Diablo Bunny's Cuteness!
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That's enough about me. My question is: why can't we have the best of both worlds?
Would it really be that difficult to design a portion of the game for avid PvPers, and a portion of the game for avid PvMers? Wouldn't that add to the overall enjoyment of the game for everyone? I understand that there are concerns. For example balance changes for PvP in World of Warcraft affecting PvE, or vice-versa. But there are ALWAYS solutions, and they really are not that difficult to implement. For the above dilemma, simply adding different effects for abilities in PvE and PvP would be a simple design decision in extreme cases where certain abilities are simply blatantly overpowered in PvP, but balanced and fun in PvE.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we're all interested in the same thing here. We all want the absolute best all-around game possible. Of course there are aspects of the game that are more important for each of us, and that is probably why PvPers are so upset right now because, let's be honest, the most recent info is less than promising. So instead of fighting each other, let's work together and brainstorm some ideas so that PvM and PvP can coincide and formulate the best Diablo 3 possible.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
Explain why.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
gear in an RPG is part of PvP so who the hell cares doesn't mean they should forget about pvp
Who are you to question?
Ughhhhhhh I hate games that are so focused on casuals
let them god damn learn the game instead of simplifying everything
how stupid does blizzard think our gaming generation is? I'm guessing 80IQ> average
1) Because Jay Wilson wants Diablo 3 to be a "PvE driven" game
2) Because it would be too complicated to implement a respectable PvP system alongside PvE.
Let's address both points:
1) There is absolutely nothing wrong with Diablo 3 being "PvE driven." I would actually (personal note here) prefer D3 being PvE driven. I.e. obtaining items from PvE and using them in PvP. This points hits directly at the heart of this post. Why does PvE and PvP have to be at odds? Why can't we have the best of both worlds and achieve an amazing well rounded game.
2) The complication argument is completely subjective and should never be used in a game where there is something like (what's the latest numbers?) 6 trillion combinations of build possibilities? Complication, or what I would call OPTIONS, are what make this game great. And please don't speak for an entire group of people (i.e. "casuals") and say that they wouldn't be able to HANDLE a more complex system. I completely disagree and think anyone who would make such a generalization is simply ignorant of the player base of Diablo. Regardless, if casuals find the PvP abilities too complicated they will not be forced to participate. Anyone can simply choose to avoid PvP altogether!
Again, there is simply no reason a great PvP and PvE system can not coincide together to formulate the best Diablo 3 possible.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
Not difficult to implant? if it wasn't then pvp wouldn't have kept ruining the pve balance and vice versa i WoW... expecting players that maybe play 2-5 hours per week to adjust to different skill stats/effects every time they switch from pve to pvp kind of goes against the whole idea the Dev's have for the Diablo series.
You do realize that we're talking about having different ability effects for PvP (if necessary), therefore it would have no effect on PvE. Explain to me what responsibilities the Diablo 3 "PvP team" would have other than designing PvP only ability effects (again, if it's even necessary on an ability-to-ability basis) and maintaining a respectable ladder system. I think they can handle it. Unless of course it really is 2 guys playing darts all day getting paid for it, like I suspect.
If the Diablo 3 "PvP team" has one tenth as much design talent as the other developers I have a tremendous amount of confidence that PvP in Diablo III has the potential to be absolutely fantastic, while maintaining every bit of it's PvE integrity.
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
"expecting players that maybe play 2-5 hours per week to adjust to different skill stats/effects every time they switch from pve to pvp"
You want them to make some skills act differently in PVP then in PVE, this creates a problem for casual players that play the game very little to adjust, if it was that easy they would have done this is WoW a long time ago, there are other limitations then just the technical ones to get a system to work, and in many cases its the players them self.
Maybe they will make PVP more serious down the line but i somehow doubt it since they have WoW and SC2 for that, its probably not worth the headache for them.
If it's too difficult for someone THEY DON'T HAVE TO PvP!
PROBLEM SOLVED!
The "complication" argument is COMPLETELY subjective and could be used for literally any aspect of this game. I.e. the rune system is "too complicated" for casuals. Would you like to do away with that as well?
(Obviously a rhetorical question to illustrate the point.)
It's actually mildly irritating that you would suggest that because there is a portion of the player base (even if it is a fictitious population in your head) that would have some slight difficulty understanding some new abilities for PvP that EVERYONE'S gameplay should be limited to what we currently have (team deathmatch, yuck). Do you not realize the insulting nature of your point to those of us who desire a respectable PvP system?
http://diablo3onfarm.wordpress.com/ - Your source for efficient Diablo 3 Farming and news from a unique perspective.
That is exactly why they are not sure about the new random rune system yet, since it has not been implanted.
Blizzard is all about being user/casual friendly, your idea is quite the opposite and if it would have been that easy it would have been implanted itheirer "other" game to prevent balance issues, but thehaven'tnt and that is for a reason.
"The "complication" argument is COMPLETELY subjective and could be used for literally any aspect of this game" - That is true and some of the mechanics in the game has been already changed because of that.
+1
And before I get attacked about how they wouldn't do that because it'll show the imbalance, look at any game on the market with a competitive multi-player, besides Counter-Strike (Incoming massive flame storm) and tell me if they are in any way balanced to the point where nothing stands out on the leaderboards. Starcraft 2 has the Terrans (though recent patches may have overbuffed the zerg, I haven't payed attention enough recently,) based off my gladiator friends on Darkspear US for WoW, Warlocks and Shaman dominate, with Mages slightly under, etc..
TLDR: Need a ranking system in PvP, there is almost no completely balanced game.
PS. Before you respond read my signature.
will you stop quoting Jay wilson
they can easily say "PvP isn't our main issue" and no that's not something conflictive