Level 60 HC characters will be no joke, Blizzard already promised that "We WILL Die", so if they are able to hold up in Hell without dieing, thats pretty damn good.
Although I think they really need to remove quest sharing for HC, I'm not actually positive if they did, but if they didn't they can just sit in town while there friends go out and do the quests.
Somewhere, it was also pointed out that the scaling for a given party size will be such that it's going to take everyone in game to complete the content. Basically, a group of 4 together can make it. A group of 4 with one person off by themselves will end up with 1 person dead very quickly, and the other 3 will slow to a magnificent crawl trying to down the content. In the games of 3 or less, you will not be able to go do your own thing/carry someone like that. The "lone wolf" will die and the remaining players will likely not be able to endure the champion packs.
Sorry, I tried to find the source of this information, but I'm unable to. It was talked about by a Blue somewhere. If anyone wants to link it, feel free. But basically, multiplayer groups will have to work together especially in Inferno. Any kind of splitting up or carrying just isn't going to work.
You play Hardcore for the achievement that is "reaching X without dying", once you die you now have a new objective: get farther.
That's what hardcore is about mainly: get the furthest without dying and be happy with the achievement. Softcore cannot provide that, put enough hours and you will reach the end with your character even if it died 1000 times. Softcore is more about trying to get the best gear and be happy about beating the game.
Also there is a recuring theme that non hardcore players have difficulty grasping. Hardcore characters die. You cannot go into hardcore and not being okay with losing the character, it does not work. Losing the character is a part of hardcore, your purpose is only to make it happen the latest.
Another new poster here. Great discussion going on here, and the points generated by Equinox9, UberN00b, and Zealot (just to name a few) bring back many memories of my move from SC to HC, and why I can't go back.
To me, there's a big difference between mindlessly rushing into a pack of Champion Fetish Dolls (at a level much lower than you should be), knowing that you can resurrect and repeat. But in HC Hell, your eyes go wide open and you madly click backwards, hurling epithets in hopes that you don't accidently kill two or three at once and die in the resulting "pop"....or when your melee character hears the dreaded Iron Maiden curse. It truly is an adrenaline rush that I just can't see getting in SC.
It takes more planning and strategy, and the occasional death reinforces this if you start to get careless or too big for your britches. And the patience you need to exhibit gives you the added bonus of playing the whole game slower (in Hell, anyway), each time catching a nuance or two that you hadn't seen before.
I haven't tried the D3 beta (I need to get an updated desktop/laptop as my laptop is from 2005), so I'll be going into D3 blind. But that'll make it that much more fun, especially if there are such drastic differences from D2 as alluded to in the earlier posts. I can't wait!
At least in the early days (first 2-3 years) of D2 the community in HC was a lot more mature and friendly (except the PK's!). The community was smaller and people knew most of the top players at least. So going back to SC where there was so many more players and you didn't know much of them wasn't an option anymore. (I did have some SC chars for PvP and fun with other friends, but mainly just HC)
In HC Hell there could be only 3-10 games and when you checked the names you knew most of the players there.
Sure it was also nicer to have high level HC character than SC character since dying did happen often for some people. If you managed to stay alive for 80+ (at least in classic d2) it was a nice feat.
Also when items got lost when people died there was less Sojs etc in the market. You also had to build your character a bit differently, more survival!
I am not a hardcore hardcore player (what the hell did I just do there?), but I do like playing it sometimes. One thing I like about it is that it generates a slightly different approach to the game, coupled with a different community. Hardcore players are less inclined to rush mindlessly and stupidly through the game because evil awaits at every corner. The game feels more real because watching your rear matters (although, a similar effect is achieved in games like Demons' Souls by harsh death penalties, not necessarily permadeath). You do not constantly compare how quickly you kill stuff and that kind of thing - your ability to survive is the most prized quality.
So, for me, it's a mix of changing the pace of the game in the minds of the players, and making the game feel a bit closer like you actually are that lonely and not-so-confident hero fighting hordes of demons that could literally kill you make you start all over again.
"What's the point of a game where you invest 22 hours into a character that you lose forever because of 1 mistake/lag/dog/baby/cat farted/etc"
You didn't lose forever... you just lost a match, time to start a new one when you are ready ^^!
Stay a while and listen...
So I had played a bit on SC in D2, beaten that game and unlocked HC. What is this I wondered? Ohhh you die... and don't get to continue... why would you play it like that? Hmmm there is a rumor that you get more magic find with a HC char, hmmm I do like MF, lets give it a try at least, to see if it's fun.
So I lvl my first HC Necromancer all the way to 79, and managed to kill Baal in NM and unlock Hell... Hmmm I could just take a quick look to see what is in Hell different from NM, I could probably do the Den Quest for an extra skill point. So I enter Hell for the first time, I check the vendors, I check my stats... ouch... -60% fireresistance... well there are no dangerous fire mobs in Blood Moor, so I should be fine. I take my first steps into Hell. My Hireling and me are having trouble killing the first zombie we see, so I can start summoning a few skellys, but we manage, I creep through the area and finally get a third skelly, then...
BAAAAM! You have died! AHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
While I'm looking at the screen shocked... trying to figure out what happened. What do I see slowing moving into sight from the far right? A champion group of Extra Strong, Fire Enchanted Quill Fiends...
I have never since played Softcore (when HC is available) in any game again ^^
Only one thing is certain in life and hardcore... YOU WILL DIE!!!
games nowadays have too little ways to lose or be punished, the hardcore feature fixes that.
Yeah, they're not games but entertainments. Imo the hack'n slash concept make great games but awful entertainments. Can't have the cake and eat it. If the HC is not entertaining enough, increase the difficulty, which is fun. If the SC is not entertaining enough, increase the rarity of good stuff, which is boring.
"Games these days". What do you mean? Games have had save features since the 80s. When you died in Legend of Zelda, your save file didn't get wiped, you just had to re-clear the dungeon. Diablo's hardcore/permanent death mode is only used in a handful of titles (for example, Everquest briefly had a permanent death server that was later removed).
So if you're only playing games with permanent death, you're talking about Diablo.
You don't have to cut SC at the knees to make HC stand taller, both are fun in their own right. Hardcore is a forced mode to see how far you can get without dying. Even when I play SC I try and get through with as few deaths as possible.
(I play both modes)
Edit: Just to re-iterate, I'm not calling into question the validity of Hardcore mode (I love it), but don't throw every other game into the "not a game, not fun" pile if it doesn't have permanent death. That's just silly.
It's all about the challenge. Both your emotions and gaming skills will be pushed to their limits. You will learn new things.
I played D2 for several years. And lets face it baalruns are anything but challenging. So I decided to give hardcore a try. And man a whole new world opened up. I never went back.
Asking why people play HC, is like asking why people look for a challenge. It's different for everybody, but if you are the kind of person that likes to challenge themselves, give HC a try. You will also learn that starting a new char, isn't that hard to do, you will master a lot of things most people won't.
So TL;DR - The rush. The thrill. The risk. The friends that help me get there and likewise the strangers in public games that I happen to further some progression with here or there which is even MORE MEANINGFUL because of the risk of permanent death. It's just damn fun. Stick me in Softcore and I get no rush, no thrill, and no risk of consequence for failure.
This sums it up really well. Knowing that you lose all your progress if you die adds another level of interest to the game. It's not for everyone I suppose, but it definitely doesn't need any added bonuses, giving hardcore characters a real advantage would just make it easier and less hardcore.
Well, it would show when your grouped with someone else, but your right Nioxic. You don't really have the ability to show off your gear, as there is no character icon representation in chat (major fail by blizzard). So a HC character could only show off their banner, and gear by grouping with other people and showing them in party at the main screen...for whatever thats worth.
My biggest complaints with D3 are:
1. Only 4 people in a group ....seriously?
2. No character avatars in chat....we had to take a step back from Diablo 2?
3. No PVP and no hostile...the promise of future arenas..bah
4. No rune drops
5. Can't pick your game or game parameters. Why can't we peruse a selection of games to join like before? Why so many steps backward on functionaltiy?
There are other complaints but I won't go into them all. The fact of the matter is I will put hundreds if not thousands of hours into the game, but I really don't understand why Blizzard is failing (in my opinion) on some of these items. Especially the chat avatars.
EDIT: I had a change of opinion on most of these items. I think Jay said Blizz is seriously taking the complaint about showing off your gear more easily in bnet chat a priority. There is a way, you can just right click anyones name in the channel and see their gear and everything about them. However, there is no automatic visual representation. Anyway. 4 person groups, now agree. No pvp, im ok till later. no rune drops- i like it better the way it is now. I would still like to be able to select a game from a list of titled games as an option to automatic queing by quest.
One more note: Blizzard has done a fantastic job. I am so completely thrilled with how i see the game turning out, i cant describe it. The level of thought, and detail they put into this thing is incredible, if not outrageous.
Thank you guys....i know its just a game, but its something I love.
I just wanted people to see the changes in my thoughts since then.
Oh... hardcore. I clearly can remember when I've come to face Andariel on Hardcore with my Barbarian for the first time. I had to pause the game with Escape button right after she started to come after me, walk around the room, all sweaty... then kill that naked biatch. Oh that feeling was great!
Then Duriel ripped me apart all over his frickin lair...
I can't speak for everyone, but i can certainly give you my perspective on playing Hardcore. Let me preface by stating that I am a D2 player that had 4 characters over lvl 95, HC...(all died).
For a certain segment of the gaming population, which includes myself, once you play HC, you can never go back to normal.
It was mentioned by someone else. It is the "RUSH"....the adrenaline rush. You can't be tired. You can't be drunk. You can't be slow. You can't be stupid. You can't be underprepared. I would almost give you the comparison to my suzuki hayabusa gxsr 1300 motorcycle. You need to be on your game at all times. One mistake and this ride is over my friend.
Even if you do everthing right, you can still die. BUT, the thrill of knowing that every step you take needs to be spot on, gives meaning to the game you will never experience otherwise.
When you have 500 hours invested in a character, and top gear, and your fighting in the hardest parts of the game, you will know fear, comradarie and excitement. You will never find this in normal.
Additionally, the people you know in the game that do the same....have a bond with you. Playing HC deserves some level of respect, not for being cool, or having a big EPEEN, but for having perserverence, dedication, awareness, and love for the game.
To be able to lose a character you have dedicated that much time to, and pick yourself up and do it again, speaks volumes. Give it a try and you may understand. If not, no big deal, there is always softcore
With so many players dying in Hardcore it tends to cull out the weak or impatient. It makes top gear MUCH, MUCH harder to obtain.
One final piece of advice. If you do play hardcore, be sure to keep sets of back up gear in your shared stash or on mules. Also, take the game a little slower. Be overprepared, overleveled, or overgeared or all three. I also like to keep multiple characters going at the same time. So if i lose one, I still have a back up to farm new gear with etc...
Good luck my friend. The beta is awesome, and I just can't wait to play this game.
I have never tried HC in D2. I probably won't in D3, either. But, I must say that this explanation of the HC mode is the best I have ever read on the subject. So much better than the "SC is for pussies" that we seem to get every where else. Thank you.
So if you're only playing games with permanent death, you're talking about Diablo.
Actually, you're really talking about 20+ years of games which were the inspiration of Diablo 1.
There were arguments during the development of Diablo 1 on whether to make it turn based so many years ago. This was overthrown leading to the modern reinterpretation of the roguelike through diablo. The vast majority of the hundreds or thousands of roguelike games are all 'permadeath' games. I think anyone who has played them will agree that this new potentially obscene level of challenge is probably one of the true redeeming qualities of Diablo 3.
As a vet D2 softcore player, I used to say I wasn't interested in hardcore. After all, I never really thought of myself as a hardcore player, diablo was just something I did for fun after school or work with my friends.
It was fun, nice low stress good times. Then it happened. We were about to jump into uber tristram when I saw one guy talking about this "experimental" sorc he had built that required no gear and was designed to just corpse rush the bosses. (it was terrible btw). I realized that was a complete disconnect from the spirit of play, nah, the very spirit of hobbies in general. If shaking a box of pocket watch parts could at some point accidently make a watch, would you do that instead of learning the skill to build one? I played softcore a little while longer but my heart wasn't in it. It wasn't fun anymore. Then the hardcore checkbox caught my eye when I was deciding on a new build, so I checked it.
I will be playing blind HC for my first run, and when that one finally dies, I'll make another one. Those first ten levels of softcore will be the only softcore levels I ever play in diablo 3.
Path of Exile has a nice system which I think still would qualify for hardcore.
If your char dies in their hardcore mode you can still use the character and their items but that char is banned from ever appearing in hardcore again. It's essentially the same thing as far as hardcore progress but at least you don't lose your character from ever being played again (just not in hardcore).