How is just shutting down one option healthier than creating two options ?
Because by creating two options you are segregating the player base. Right now there are already 6 different "server": US, EU, KR, each SC and HC. Splitting all these into SF and no-SF... no thanks.
It's healthier to alienate a portion of your player base because another portion feels (rightly right now, but with coming changes to drop rates this won't be the case) that they're being screwed? It's healthier to tell a portion of your fan base that "you can't play the way you want to because those guys over there don't like it?" Healthier than separating out the two, maybe. But healthier than continuing to allow trading amongst those who want to trade while still adjusting drop rates to a more viable level for self-found. How is wiping out a play style in favor of another healthy when there's clearly room for a compromise that is largely being ignored by devs and blues?
How is just shutting down one option healthier than creating two options ?
Seriously...both of you...
"Creating two options" is nothing more than a weak band-aid, it separates the community more than it already is (not just by region, but also by attitude and philosophy), and I pretty sure I just explained why!!! Separating self-found and trading NOW makes a sliver of sense, ONLY because there's such a drastic difference between people who buy all their gear and people who don't. When Loot 2.0 goes live, and the expansion comes out, the AH will be gone, everyone will be on the same playing field...
In essence...there will be far less reason to separate into "two options" than there is now. Far less.
As for trading, I'm really getting tired of people thinking they won't be able to trade. Like I've been saying, I can't wait to trade with my friends under these new restrictions. The minute I get something great from a friend, and someone says they hate that there isn't any trading, I'm gonna go, "uhh, my friend gave me these bracers, dude, not sure what you're talking about."
LITERALLY...the only thing you're prevented from doing, without free trade, is save items specifically to trade or give to others indefinitely. That's it. And really, with so many people creating mules, that's a silly idea anyway. It just presents the option of creating an alternate currency (much like runes and SOJs), and reduces the actual personal value items have to people. Twoflower, you say items still hold value to you, they hold value to me too. But I've been a self-found player for a long time, and I've seen you complain that they were making a mistake getting rid of the AH. So I'm not really sure what kind of value items could have to you, beyond "oh look, here's an easy 2Bs!!!"
Honestly, this isn't nearly the big deal people are making it out to be. And if it's that much of a deal breaker, go over to Path of Exile and trade freely there. I'm sure the 3rd party market is brimming for your business.
It's healthier to alienate a portion of your player base because another portion feels (rightly right now, but with coming changes to drop rates this won't be the case) that they're being screwed? It's healthier to tell a portion of your fan base that "you can't play the way you want to because those guys over there don't like it?" Healthier than separating out the two, maybe. But healthier than continuing to allow trading amongst those who want to trade while still adjusting drop rates to a more viable level for self-found. How is wiping out a play style in favor of another healthy when there's clearly room for a compromise that is largely being ignored by devs and blues?
How is just shutting down one option healthier than creating two options ?
Seriously...both of you...
"Creating two options" is nothing more than a weak band-aid, it separates the community more than it already is (not just by region, but also by attitude and philosophy), and I pretty sure I just explained why!!! Separating self-found and trading NOW makes a sliver of sense, ONLY because there's such a drastic difference between people who buy all their gear and people who don't. When Loot 2.0 goes live, and the expansion comes out, the AH will be gone, everyone will be on the same playing field...
In essence...there will be far less reason to separate into "two options" than there is now. Far less.
As for trading, I'm really getting tired of people thinking they won't be able to trade. Like I've been saying, I can't wait to trade with my friends under these new restrictions. The minute I get something great from a friend, and someone says they hate that there isn't any trading, I'm gonna go, "uhh, my friend gave me these bracers, dude, not sure what you're talking about."
LITERALLY...the only thing you're prevented from doing, without free trade, is save items specifically to trade or give to others indefinitely. That's it. And really, with so many people creating mules, that's a silly idea anyway. It just presents the option of creating an alternate currency (much like runes and SOJs), and reduces the actual personal value items have to people. Twoflower, you say items still hold value to you, they hold value to me too. But I've been a self-found player for a long time, and I've seen you complain that they were making a mistake getting rid of the AH. So I'm not really sure what kind of value items could have to you, beyond "oh look, here's an easy 2Bs!!!"
Honestly, this isn't nearly the big deal people are making it out to be. And if it's that much of a deal breaker, go over to Path of Exile and trade freely there. I'm sure the 3rd party market is brimming for your business.
I would like it to be noted, that I didn't say create two options and I don't believe that self-found needs to be a separate mode. I simply believe there is no reason to stop people from trading if the drops are properly adjusted to allow for gearing up solo.
LITERALLY... the only thing that I can't do if they prevent open trading is trade openly. And to me, that's no small thing in a Diablo game. In addition to what you listed, I can't trade with my friends who are online, but not in my game. I can't trade with clan members who, more than 3 of whom I Can't be grouped with at a time. I can't trade with people who aren't on my friends list to obtain an item I value in exchange for an item they value (the entire point of trading). I can't hold an item for a friend who is on vacation who usually would be in the 2 hour window playing in my games with me. Now this is more a fear than a known at the moment, I'll be the first to admit it. Depending on drop rates and balances, I won't actually be able to trade (make an even exchange of valuable items between two parties who happened to obtain an item the other was interested in) because the item I want from a player I am partying with finds the item I would want 2 hours and 1 minute after the item he would want drops. Now you may say well that's not sharing and this system is to encourage social play and joint work towards gearing up. That's admirable and all and just fine and dandy, but that is not trading. That is sharing or gifting, not an even trade, which will really only come up if you are playing in a public game and not with friends, as sharing with friends will pay you back long term, while sharing with a random is unlikely to pay you back in kind.
Finally, to address the issue of value. If his items have value to him in the form of gold which allows him to access other items, or makes him as happy as uncle scrooge swimming in a vault of gold, or because he can cash them out for real currency, or whatever other way he might value his items, who are you to say that that's wrong or less than how you value items. Value is a subjective concept and all the people on here arguing that the way another values something isn't right or is somehow bad as an excuse to make these changes is ridiculous. Value is inherent and there is no way to compare how one person subjectively values an item against the way another someone subjectively values their items.
Yes this is only limited to legendary's and sets. But if these are to be the top items in game and I can't obtain them for the duration because I have super shitty luck AND I can't obtain them from someone who has equally shitty luck but needs what I have in exchange for what they have that I need, that's just poor design. Yay I can trade rares is a tough consolation prize if I can never complete that 5-piece set that I want.
And if it's that much of a deal breaker, go over to Path of Exile and trade freely there.
I've been a pretty loyal Blizzard customer for 17 years now. In those 17 years I've spent around $2000 on their products - around $150/year. Why would Blizzard want me, or any other loyal customer, to go to their competition? From a free market perspective, sure it makes sense.... but from Blizzard's perspective it's the last thing they should be doing.
ESPECIALLY SINCE THERE IS A VERY OBVIOUS MIDDLE-GROUND SOLUTION. One that seems very acceptable except to a small group of hard-liner "trading killed my grandmother" zealots. In fact, you voted for this solution in the poll, which means you know it's the much better option because it accomplishes the goal of eliminating "mass trading" while still allowing friend-to-friend trading if people choose that route.
It would be pretty stupid for Blizzard to not acknowledge this middle-ground solution, go with that, and do what they've been trying to do with D3 forever now - please as many people as possible. At this juncture the last thing we should be doing is encouraging people who don't like this "bind to game" solution to go play PoE. We should all be rallying around the best solution that pleases the most people and not the most extreme solution that alienates many.
And if it's that much of a deal breaker, go over to Path of Exile and trade freely there.
I feel offended, really.
Ya know what, I'm honestly fine with that. I've been playing Path of Exile with my friends lately, under a minute amount of protest, as I think the sphere grid and materia systems (aka, passive skill tree and skill gems) are pretty lame design choices...however, arguably...PoE has better loot drops. I really can't argue there, but then...in D3's expansion, my friends and I will be right back in the swing of things. I'm not playing PoE instead because it's a better game, by any stretch of the imagination...only reason I am playing it is because better and more potent loot will be found in a game I prefer very very soon.
I did next to no trading when playing D1 and D2, and I enjoyed both a ton. People say trading was such a central part of Diablo...I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Yes, it keeps things social, I admit...limiting it as much as they're speculating does eliminate SOME of those social features...but open and free trading has so many avenues that allow it to be corruptible and abused, and the avenues that are opened by way of these restrictions are pretty interesting in how they change how people work together.
With as much else as I could say, I'm pretty offended by this particular line...
That is sharing or gifting, not an even trade, which will really only come up if you are playing in a public game and not with friends, as sharing with friends will pay you back long term, while sharing with a random is unlikely to pay you back in kind.
I've heard this pointed out by a number of people, even a friend said it was almost impossible. Honestly, that idea is pretty upsetting to me.
Yes, right now, D3 is an ocean full of greed, selfishness, and exploiters. People hop into random MP10 games and leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeech off that precious Magic Find, as it's a good way to get high end items if you're not kicked out or dying too often. But I really don't see what benefit random strangers have to going along for Bounty Runs, getting legendaries as rewards, and not cooperating and communicating with team members. There's no way in hell it would be efficient to NOT communicate in this kind of scenario. When someone else could've gotten the exact item you want, you stand to be far more efficient by just leeching off other peoples' help and running with the haul?
Sorry, but I just don't buy that.
There's no way the devs haven't taken this aspect into consideration, and although, yes...lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of people are upset that it looks as if free trading will be over, but honestly, THIS is what I see coming of the trading limitations being proposed. Some of you might be way too cynical to foresee a Diablo 3 when you could go into a public game, and find some people who communicate and tell others what they're looking for, and actually exchanging those particular items in-game....but I can see that as a possibility. That's the Diablo 3 I want to play.
It ensures that really desirable high end items aren't entirely out of reach, but gets people motivated to work closely with others. Yes, I know, "but if my friend finds the exact item I want, he can't save it for me and just hand it to me next time we play together!" Right...and ya know what else? Some fella across the country is finding that item right now...oh, but you don't know them...so...I guess that means that guy has that item you want, and you don't. Guess they'll have to keep it, and you'll have to keep looking. Gosh. What a tragedy.
I really need to stay out of this argument. It's just hard, considering I keep running into good reasonings for it, and meanwhile, I keep seeing the same tired anger and arguments FOR free-trade, that really ignore a lot of the downsides.
That's why, Efrye, I told everyone that if free-trade is such a bloody dealbreaker...Path of Exile is that way. Yet, shaggy quoted me and then deflected, you're "offended," and Ruluku and Twoflower are yet to comment as of this comment...though, I'm sure by the time it posts, they'll go, "please, I haven't played D3 in over a year, been playing PoE and been really happy." Which explains exactly why they're still here condemning the game's practices.
I can only hope the D3 devs cave in under the pressure and change things. One of the reasons I've been excited for the expansion is that much of the complaining seemed to be STOPPING.
As for trading, I'm really getting tired of people thinking they won't be able to trade. Like I've been saying, I can't wait to trade with my friends under these new restrictions. The minute I get something great from a friend, and someone says they hate that there isn't any trading, I'm gonna go, "uhh, my friend gave me these bracers, dude, not sure what you're talking about."
Yeah, unless you were not in the game at that time. Oh, too bad, the bracers you wanted to drop for 3 months now are allready soulbound to your friend who plays a different class.
Twoflower, you say items still hold value to you, they hold value to me too. But I've been a self-found player for a long time, and I've seen you complain that they were making a mistake getting rid of the AH. So I'm not really sure what kind of value items could have to you, beyond "oh look, here's an easy 2Bs!!!"
Getting rid of the AH still is a mistake in my opinion. Items have great value to me, sentimental value for the selffound items and also ingame-stats-increasing value from some of the items i bougth.
You keep ranting about people who play in a totally different league than us ( judging by the stats of that monk in your profile ). Why are you so concerned about what some guy you will never play with may or may not pay for his gear that is so far beyond your reach that you will never get it anyway ?
Take your stereotypes and shove them elsewhere. I am not a trader, just some player that likes to trade occasionally. Something you seem to be religiously against. God forbod somebody else may also play the game the way they like.
Honestly, this isn't nearly the big deal people are making it out to be. And if it's that much of a deal breaker, go over to Path of Exile and trade freely there. I'm sure the 3rd party market is brimming for your business.
FIrst path of exile has no AH either. Second the third party market certainly must be at least as big in D3 as it is in PoE. Third I have never bougth a single item for real money.
Fourth, you speaking about not separating the community in one paragraph and then telling me to f*** off and play PoE in the next paragraph is absurd. You make no sense whatsoever.
That's why, Efrye, I told everyone that if free-trade is such a bloody dealbreaker...Path of Exile is that way. Yet, shaggy quoted me and then deflected, you're "offended," and Ruluku and Twoflower are yet to comment as of this comment...though, I'm sure by the time it posts, they'll go, "please, I haven't played D3 in over a year, been playing PoE and been really happy." Which explains exactly why they're still here condemning the game's practices.
Oh keep demonstrating how wrong you are on every turn
It all boils down to letting others play the game the way they want. I am all for loot improvements so that self finders can play more happily. Why do you have to take my ah away though? Live and let live, ever heared of that ?
Again you assume. I have not played PoE, and I continue to play D3 on and off to prep for the paragon conversion and for the off chance that I find something. If I wanted to play a game where open trading existed I would go back to D2 and start up a HC toon with the coming ladder reset (wow a game that has trading and is still fun to play 12 years after launch? Fancy that.)
Just because trading wasn't a central part of D1 and D2 to you doesn't mean that there aren't other people out there that enjoyed that aspect of the game immensely. The issue that you are missing here is that you are placing the way you enjoy the game over the way other people enjoy the game. You note in your own post that you enjoyed both D1 and D2 immensely yourself and yet trading was free and open in that game. Each player had the choice to trade or not to trade and you note that things worked out just fine. Yet here you are, telling people now that the devs should step in and limit something at the expense of another person's enjoyment.
To the need for communication in games. There are plenty of instances where you pop into an mp10 game and people are leeching and running off to do their own thing and all that. There are also plenty of instances where people are on the same page without needing to say anything. On top of this, discussing what items you are looking for doesn't mean they will drop or that someone will get what you want for what they have to offer. Again, you gloss over the fact that this is not trading, but gifting. Nothing about communication, with randoms who also communicate, changes the fact that the equality of a trade is at the mercy of the rng and timing of drops while you're in a group. This is regardless of how well you work together, and while that cooperation may pay off short term, it doesn't guarantee the adding of friends or playing together in the future.
Simply because you don't agree with an argument doesn't make them tired or angry and you've yet to bring up a downside to free trade other than the fact that it has influenced the current iteration of the games drop rates, which I believe everyone so far has agreed need to be fixed. Basically all you have brought up so far is, I don't like trading and I don't trade so no one should be able to trade legendarys. Its short sighted and awfully sad that you don't care to try and take the perspective of one person, sitting on the short end of RNG, hoping for an item that will unlock a build they desperately want to try but can never seem to get to drop for them (not a far fetched idea, that if addressed in itemization changes, alters the whole discussion completely, I grant that).
Yes, right now, D3 is an ocean full of greed, selfishness, and exploiters.
OK, so I have a big question then. If the D3 community sucks so badly why haven't you quit to play PoE? I mean that's your ultimate solution for people who don't like this potential change... so why isn't it also the solution to your problem?
You shouldn't tell people to quit D3 and play PoE if it's not something you're willing to do yourself. It reeks of "As long as D3 is exactly what I want everyone else can go fuck themselves" and that's really not a valid perspective to have unless you think Blizzard is trying to design a game that sells one, single, copy to you.
That being said, if they go through with this I very well may go play PoE because this is one issue I am firmly against. But, in the meantime, I will do what I can to help Blizzard see that this pendulum approach to things is not healthy for the game.
That being said, if they go through with this I very well may go play PoE because this is one issue I am firmly against. But, in the meantime, I will do what I can to help Blizzard see that this pendulum approach to things is not healthy for the game.
I think i'll just skip RoS and come back for the 3th expansion ( if the pendulum really goes as far as announced and if it keeps swinging ).
Yes, right now, D3 is an ocean full of greed, selfishness, and exploiters.
OK, so I have a big question then. If the D3 community sucks so badly why haven't you quit to play PoE? I mean that's your ultimate solution for people who don't like this potential change... so why isn't it also the solution to your problem?
You shouldn't tell people to quit D3 and play PoE if it's not something you're willing to do yourself. It reeks of "As long as D3 is exactly what I want everyone else can go fuck themselves" and that's really not a valid perspective to have unless you think Blizzard is trying to design a game that sells one, single, copy to you.
Ya know what, I'm honestly fine with that. I've been playing Path of Exile with my friends lately, under a minute amount of protest, as I think the sphere grid and materia systems (aka, passive skill tree and skill gems) are pretty lame design choices...however, arguably...PoE has better loot drops. I really can't argue there, but then...in D3's expansion, my friends and I will be right back in the swing of things. I'm not playing PoE instead because it's a better game, by any stretch of the imagination...only reason I am playing it is because better and more potent loot will be found in a game I prefer very very soon.
Yes, right now, D3 is an ocean full of greed, selfishness, and exploiters.
OK, so I have a big question then. If the D3 community sucks so badly why haven't you quit to play PoE? I mean that's your ultimate solution for people who don't like this potential change... so why isn't it also the solution to your problem?
You shouldn't tell people to quit D3 and play PoE if it's not something you're willing to do yourself. It reeks of "As long as D3 is exactly what I want everyone else can go fuck themselves" and that's really not a valid perspective to have unless you think Blizzard is trying to design a game that sells one, single, copy to you.
Ya know what, I'm honestly fine with that. I've been playing Path of Exile with my friends lately, under a minute amount of protest, as I think the sphere grid and materia systems (aka, passive skill tree and skill gems) are pretty lame design choices...however, arguably...PoE has better loot drops. I really can't argue there, but then...in D3's expansion, my friends and I will be right back in the swing of things. I'm not playing PoE instead because it's a better game, by any stretch of the imagination...only reason I am playing it is because better and more potent loot will be found in a game I prefer very very soon.
All right, I'm officially staying out of this thread, because no one can quote me to save their lives...
Quitting suggests I gave it up for good. I didn't quit D3. I still play it occasionally, in fact, I was planning on getting on this week and playing for a while. In truth, I've been playing games on my PS Vita a lot lately as well, that doesn't mean I quit D3.
My friends and I have been playing PoE as something different as we look forward to D3's expansion, and as I point out...when the expansion hits, we'll be right back into D3.
Taking a break is way different than quitting. Remarkable that I have to spell that out.
I'm sorry, carry on with your arguing for free-trade, I'll stay out of this thread. Hope it all works out for you....
Haha worst pretend reason for running away ever. What a sucker.
Probably goes on to make noise in all other threads. And that is the kind of players that Blizzard is designing their addon for. I said it before and i ll say it again : they dont know what they are doing.
Ignore someone who voices legitimate questions regarding the changes you've weighed in on and address the semantics of whether you are or are not playing a different game. That's a great way to have a discussion.
editz : nevermind, that is going too off topic and may be considered insulting ^^
Anyway, on topic ( or at least closer to it than we were for the last few posts ) :
I have yet to see a good argument for removing the AH or BoA items and all that shizzle.
I can understand that drop rates need to be improved. I trade and I dont even have a mp10 equipped char. I dont even wanna think selffound, yes I get it, it's not fun in the state the game is currently in.
But once we get the improved loot, and once all the people who want to can play selffound and be happy with it : Why can't the others trade as they like ? Why not for example bring loot 2.0 and leave the AH in ? Or at least trading ?
Blizzard are basically telling people that they don't have the ability to design an aRPG that includes trading without breaking its other aspects, despite having managed to do so with Diablo 2 themselves and despite PoE existing and doing pretty well in the here and now. All the rest is window dressing as far as I'm concerned.
I feel the same exact way. They are either incapable of doing it or just taking the lazy way out.
--none of this is directly at the person quoted above fyi--
Also, sort of off topic, although I don't see eye-to-eye on the BOA issue as CardinalMDM, I am not sure why people are getting on his ass for taking a break from the game / quitting (terminology semantics IMO). I can't tell you how many times I've walked away from D3 for an undetermined amount of time until the urge came back to me to play it again. Taking a break from the game shouldn't make his or anyone else's opinion about game play mechanics any less valid.
Also, sort of off topic, although I don't see eye-to-eye on the BOA issue as CardinalMDM, I am not sure why people are getting on his ass for taking a break from the game / quitting (terminology semantics IMO). I can't tell you how many times I've walked away from D3 for an undetermined amount of time until the urge came back to me to play it again. Taking a break from the game shouldn't make his or anyone else's opinion about game play mechanics any less valid.
I don't have an issue with him taking a break or quitting, moderation in this game can prolong your own enjoyment and that's fine. I took issue with him using that as the topic of a post rather than addressing the issues he claims to have with trading outside of "its not the way I play the game" and then storming off angrily claiming that the rest of us are irrational...
For me it's really quite simple - I dislike the existence of trading because I believe that it has a negative impact on the playstyle I consider to be most fun(self-found). In D3 I used the AH heavily like everybody else, because I wasn't willing to place myself on such an inferior progression curve compared to everybody else I know who plays the game. Trading is so powerful today that the large majority of the playerbase utilizes it out of perceived necessity. Because of this, Blizzard has to balance the game to satisfy players who are progressing that quickly. Natural droprates remain terrible to protect the longevity of the AH game, farming the ubers is all but impossible for self-found players because the AH players need something to strive for, etc etc. If you replace "the AH" with "third party trading sites", nothing has changed.
Basically it's very important for various game design reasons that everyone who plays the game has a relatively similar pace of progression(given their time investment). And trading by definition makes you progress faster, because why else would people do it? That means that the very existence of trading has an adverse effect on the people who don't want to use it. Thus the simplest and best way to keep the game fun for self-found players is to focus the game entirely on the self-found playstyle. Removing all these unpredictable variables puts everybody on the same level so Blizzard has exactly one target to aim for.
Maybe when RoS comes out, people will complain that it's too hard to find that specific legendary you want. But this is a specific problem that can be easily solved when you only need one solution that applies to everyone.
For me it's really quite simple - I dislike the existence of trading because I believe that it has a negative impact on the playstyle I consider to be most fun(self-found).
Not any more after they adjust the drop rates.
And sorry, but if you prefer playing selffound but dont have the discipline to not use the AH, that is your problem and you should not force everybody else into playing selffound just cause you can not control yourself. IMO forcing any play style onto anyone is bad. Leaving options is good.
Let's face it, everything that is happening here is because of money.
Some naive minds are thinking this is all happening, because Blizzard wants to make a better product, maybe it is time to wake up from your pony farm world and take off the pink glasses.
*Gasp*
Better product = more money
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Because by creating two options you are segregating the player base. Right now there are already 6 different "server": US, EU, KR, each SC and HC. Splitting all these into SF and no-SF... no thanks.
Seriously...both of you...
"Creating two options" is nothing more than a weak band-aid, it separates the community more than it already is (not just by region, but also by attitude and philosophy), and I pretty sure I just explained why!!! Separating self-found and trading NOW makes a sliver of sense, ONLY because there's such a drastic difference between people who buy all their gear and people who don't. When Loot 2.0 goes live, and the expansion comes out, the AH will be gone, everyone will be on the same playing field...
In essence...there will be far less reason to separate into "two options" than there is now. Far less.
As for trading, I'm really getting tired of people thinking they won't be able to trade. Like I've been saying, I can't wait to trade with my friends under these new restrictions. The minute I get something great from a friend, and someone says they hate that there isn't any trading, I'm gonna go, "uhh, my friend gave me these bracers, dude, not sure what you're talking about."
LITERALLY...the only thing you're prevented from doing, without free trade, is save items specifically to trade or give to others indefinitely. That's it. And really, with so many people creating mules, that's a silly idea anyway. It just presents the option of creating an alternate currency (much like runes and SOJs), and reduces the actual personal value items have to people. Twoflower, you say items still hold value to you, they hold value to me too. But I've been a self-found player for a long time, and I've seen you complain that they were making a mistake getting rid of the AH. So I'm not really sure what kind of value items could have to you, beyond "oh look, here's an easy 2Bs!!!"
Honestly, this isn't nearly the big deal people are making it out to be. And if it's that much of a deal breaker, go over to Path of Exile and trade freely there. I'm sure the 3rd party market is brimming for your business.
I would like it to be noted, that I didn't say create two options and I don't believe that self-found needs to be a separate mode. I simply believe there is no reason to stop people from trading if the drops are properly adjusted to allow for gearing up solo.
LITERALLY... the only thing that I can't do if they prevent open trading is trade openly. And to me, that's no small thing in a Diablo game. In addition to what you listed, I can't trade with my friends who are online, but not in my game. I can't trade with clan members who, more than 3 of whom I Can't be grouped with at a time. I can't trade with people who aren't on my friends list to obtain an item I value in exchange for an item they value (the entire point of trading). I can't hold an item for a friend who is on vacation who usually would be in the 2 hour window playing in my games with me. Now this is more a fear than a known at the moment, I'll be the first to admit it. Depending on drop rates and balances, I won't actually be able to trade (make an even exchange of valuable items between two parties who happened to obtain an item the other was interested in) because the item I want from a player I am partying with finds the item I would want 2 hours and 1 minute after the item he would want drops. Now you may say well that's not sharing and this system is to encourage social play and joint work towards gearing up. That's admirable and all and just fine and dandy, but that is not trading. That is sharing or gifting, not an even trade, which will really only come up if you are playing in a public game and not with friends, as sharing with friends will pay you back long term, while sharing with a random is unlikely to pay you back in kind.
Finally, to address the issue of value. If his items have value to him in the form of gold which allows him to access other items, or makes him as happy as uncle scrooge swimming in a vault of gold, or because he can cash them out for real currency, or whatever other way he might value his items, who are you to say that that's wrong or less than how you value items. Value is a subjective concept and all the people on here arguing that the way another values something isn't right or is somehow bad as an excuse to make these changes is ridiculous. Value is inherent and there is no way to compare how one person subjectively values an item against the way another someone subjectively values their items.
Yes this is only limited to legendary's and sets. But if these are to be the top items in game and I can't obtain them for the duration because I have super shitty luck AND I can't obtain them from someone who has equally shitty luck but needs what I have in exchange for what they have that I need, that's just poor design. Yay I can trade rares is a tough consolation prize if I can never complete that 5-piece set that I want.
I've been a pretty loyal Blizzard customer for 17 years now. In those 17 years I've spent around $2000 on their products - around $150/year. Why would Blizzard want me, or any other loyal customer, to go to their competition? From a free market perspective, sure it makes sense.... but from Blizzard's perspective it's the last thing they should be doing.
ESPECIALLY SINCE THERE IS A VERY OBVIOUS MIDDLE-GROUND SOLUTION. One that seems very acceptable except to a small group of hard-liner "trading killed my grandmother" zealots. In fact, you voted for this solution in the poll, which means you know it's the much better option because it accomplishes the goal of eliminating "mass trading" while still allowing friend-to-friend trading if people choose that route.
It would be pretty stupid for Blizzard to not acknowledge this middle-ground solution, go with that, and do what they've been trying to do with D3 forever now - please as many people as possible. At this juncture the last thing we should be doing is encouraging people who don't like this "bind to game" solution to go play PoE. We should all be rallying around the best solution that pleases the most people and not the most extreme solution that alienates many.
Ya know what, I'm honestly fine with that. I've been playing Path of Exile with my friends lately, under a minute amount of protest, as I think the sphere grid and materia systems (aka, passive skill tree and skill gems) are pretty lame design choices...however, arguably...PoE has better loot drops. I really can't argue there, but then...in D3's expansion, my friends and I will be right back in the swing of things. I'm not playing PoE instead because it's a better game, by any stretch of the imagination...only reason I am playing it is because better and more potent loot will be found in a game I prefer very very soon.
I did next to no trading when playing D1 and D2, and I enjoyed both a ton. People say trading was such a central part of Diablo...I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. Yes, it keeps things social, I admit...limiting it as much as they're speculating does eliminate SOME of those social features...but open and free trading has so many avenues that allow it to be corruptible and abused, and the avenues that are opened by way of these restrictions are pretty interesting in how they change how people work together.
With as much else as I could say, I'm pretty offended by this particular line...
I've heard this pointed out by a number of people, even a friend said it was almost impossible. Honestly, that idea is pretty upsetting to me.
Yes, right now, D3 is an ocean full of greed, selfishness, and exploiters. People hop into random MP10 games and leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeech off that precious Magic Find, as it's a good way to get high end items if you're not kicked out or dying too often. But I really don't see what benefit random strangers have to going along for Bounty Runs, getting legendaries as rewards, and not cooperating and communicating with team members. There's no way in hell it would be efficient to NOT communicate in this kind of scenario. When someone else could've gotten the exact item you want, you stand to be far more efficient by just leeching off other peoples' help and running with the haul?
Sorry, but I just don't buy that.
There's no way the devs haven't taken this aspect into consideration, and although, yes...lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of people are upset that it looks as if free trading will be over, but honestly, THIS is what I see coming of the trading limitations being proposed. Some of you might be way too cynical to foresee a Diablo 3 when you could go into a public game, and find some people who communicate and tell others what they're looking for, and actually exchanging those particular items in-game....but I can see that as a possibility. That's the Diablo 3 I want to play.
It ensures that really desirable high end items aren't entirely out of reach, but gets people motivated to work closely with others. Yes, I know, "but if my friend finds the exact item I want, he can't save it for me and just hand it to me next time we play together!" Right...and ya know what else? Some fella across the country is finding that item right now...oh, but you don't know them...so...I guess that means that guy has that item you want, and you don't. Guess they'll have to keep it, and you'll have to keep looking. Gosh. What a tragedy.
I really need to stay out of this argument. It's just hard, considering I keep running into good reasonings for it, and meanwhile, I keep seeing the same tired anger and arguments FOR free-trade, that really ignore a lot of the downsides.
That's why, Efrye, I told everyone that if free-trade is such a bloody dealbreaker...Path of Exile is that way. Yet, shaggy quoted me and then deflected, you're "offended," and Ruluku and Twoflower are yet to comment as of this comment...though, I'm sure by the time it posts, they'll go, "please, I haven't played D3 in over a year, been playing PoE and been really happy." Which explains exactly why they're still here condemning the game's practices.
I can only hope the D3 devs cave in under the pressure and change things. One of the reasons I've been excited for the expansion is that much of the complaining seemed to be STOPPING.
Guess it's not over yet.
Yes cause there will only be one option cause the other is destroyed. Wow, nice "solution"
Yeah, unless you were not in the game at that time. Oh, too bad, the bracers you wanted to drop for 3 months now are allready soulbound to your friend who plays a different class.
Getting rid of the AH still is a mistake in my opinion. Items have great value to me, sentimental value for the selffound items and also ingame-stats-increasing value from some of the items i bougth.
You keep ranting about people who play in a totally different league than us ( judging by the stats of that monk in your profile ). Why are you so concerned about what some guy you will never play with may or may not pay for his gear that is so far beyond your reach that you will never get it anyway ?
Take your stereotypes and shove them elsewhere. I am not a trader, just some player that likes to trade occasionally. Something you seem to be religiously against. God forbod somebody else may also play the game the way they like.
FIrst path of exile has no AH either. Second the third party market certainly must be at least as big in D3 as it is in PoE. Third I have never bougth a single item for real money.
Fourth, you speaking about not separating the community in one paragraph and then telling me to f*** off and play PoE in the next paragraph is absurd. You make no sense whatsoever.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
Oh keep demonstrating how wrong you are on every turn
It all boils down to letting others play the game the way they want. I am all for loot improvements so that self finders can play more happily. Why do you have to take my ah away though? Live and let live, ever heared of that ?
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
Just because trading wasn't a central part of D1 and D2 to you doesn't mean that there aren't other people out there that enjoyed that aspect of the game immensely. The issue that you are missing here is that you are placing the way you enjoy the game over the way other people enjoy the game. You note in your own post that you enjoyed both D1 and D2 immensely yourself and yet trading was free and open in that game. Each player had the choice to trade or not to trade and you note that things worked out just fine. Yet here you are, telling people now that the devs should step in and limit something at the expense of another person's enjoyment.
To the need for communication in games. There are plenty of instances where you pop into an mp10 game and people are leeching and running off to do their own thing and all that. There are also plenty of instances where people are on the same page without needing to say anything. On top of this, discussing what items you are looking for doesn't mean they will drop or that someone will get what you want for what they have to offer. Again, you gloss over the fact that this is not trading, but gifting. Nothing about communication, with randoms who also communicate, changes the fact that the equality of a trade is at the mercy of the rng and timing of drops while you're in a group. This is regardless of how well you work together, and while that cooperation may pay off short term, it doesn't guarantee the adding of friends or playing together in the future.
Simply because you don't agree with an argument doesn't make them tired or angry and you've yet to bring up a downside to free trade other than the fact that it has influenced the current iteration of the games drop rates, which I believe everyone so far has agreed need to be fixed. Basically all you have brought up so far is, I don't like trading and I don't trade so no one should be able to trade legendarys. Its short sighted and awfully sad that you don't care to try and take the perspective of one person, sitting on the short end of RNG, hoping for an item that will unlock a build they desperately want to try but can never seem to get to drop for them (not a far fetched idea, that if addressed in itemization changes, alters the whole discussion completely, I grant that).
OK, so I have a big question then. If the D3 community sucks so badly why haven't you quit to play PoE? I mean that's your ultimate solution for people who don't like this potential change... so why isn't it also the solution to your problem?
You shouldn't tell people to quit D3 and play PoE if it's not something you're willing to do yourself. It reeks of "As long as D3 is exactly what I want everyone else can go fuck themselves" and that's really not a valid perspective to have unless you think Blizzard is trying to design a game that sells one, single, copy to you.
That being said, if they go through with this I very well may go play PoE because this is one issue I am firmly against. But, in the meantime, I will do what I can to help Blizzard see that this pendulum approach to things is not healthy for the game.
I think i'll just skip RoS and come back for the 3th expansion ( if the pendulum really goes as far as announced and if it keeps swinging ).
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
Actually he did quit D3 for Path of Exile.
All right, I'm officially staying out of this thread, because no one can quote me to save their lives...
Quitting suggests I gave it up for good. I didn't quit D3. I still play it occasionally, in fact, I was planning on getting on this week and playing for a while. In truth, I've been playing games on my PS Vita a lot lately as well, that doesn't mean I quit D3.
My friends and I have been playing PoE as something different as we look forward to D3's expansion, and as I point out...when the expansion hits, we'll be right back into D3.
Taking a break is way different than quitting. Remarkable that I have to spell that out.
I'm sorry, carry on with your arguing for free-trade, I'll stay out of this thread. Hope it all works out for you....
Probably goes on to make noise in all other threads. And that is the kind of players that Blizzard is designing their addon for. I said it before and i ll say it again : they dont know what they are doing.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
Anyway, on topic ( or at least closer to it than we were for the last few posts ) :
I have yet to see a good argument for removing the AH or BoA items and all that shizzle.
I can understand that drop rates need to be improved. I trade and I dont even have a mp10 equipped char. I dont even wanna think selffound, yes I get it, it's not fun in the state the game is currently in.
But once we get the improved loot, and once all the people who want to can play selffound and be happy with it : Why can't the others trade as they like ? Why not for example bring loot 2.0 and leave the AH in ? Or at least trading ?
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
I feel the same exact way. They are either incapable of doing it or just taking the lazy way out.
--none of this is directly at the person quoted above fyi--
Also, sort of off topic, although I don't see eye-to-eye on the BOA issue as CardinalMDM, I am not sure why people are getting on his ass for taking a break from the game / quitting (terminology semantics IMO). I can't tell you how many times I've walked away from D3 for an undetermined amount of time until the urge came back to me to play it again. Taking a break from the game shouldn't make his or anyone else's opinion about game play mechanics any less valid.
I don't have an issue with him taking a break or quitting, moderation in this game can prolong your own enjoyment and that's fine. I took issue with him using that as the topic of a post rather than addressing the issues he claims to have with trading outside of "its not the way I play the game" and then storming off angrily claiming that the rest of us are irrational...
Basically it's very important for various game design reasons that everyone who plays the game has a relatively similar pace of progression(given their time investment). And trading by definition makes you progress faster, because why else would people do it? That means that the very existence of trading has an adverse effect on the people who don't want to use it. Thus the simplest and best way to keep the game fun for self-found players is to focus the game entirely on the self-found playstyle. Removing all these unpredictable variables puts everybody on the same level so Blizzard has exactly one target to aim for.
Maybe when RoS comes out, people will complain that it's too hard to find that specific legendary you want. But this is a specific problem that can be easily solved when you only need one solution that applies to everyone.
Not any more after they adjust the drop rates.
And sorry, but if you prefer playing selffound but dont have the discipline to not use the AH, that is your problem and you should not force everybody else into playing selffound just cause you can not control yourself. IMO forcing any play style onto anyone is bad. Leaving options is good.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Twoflower-2131/hero/47336841
*Gasp*
Better product = more money