Account character slots. We have 10. I have 10 characters. I have to delete characters to play ladder? Thats BS. D2 had unlimited accounts able to be tied to one cd key so we had unlimited characters for playing ladder. Diablo 3 was not set up for D2 ladder style and won't effectively copy it.
Errrr, what? You could only create one account per CD key, and there was a maximum of 10 slots per account as well. I remember this exactly because I had 3 CD keys for "mule accounts" and other stuff just because of this.
Well, your argument is right that ladders were controlled by bots, the economy was controlled by bots, and so on. That's exactly why so many people play self-found, and it's the reason why Blizzard is not too keen on creating something like Diabloprogress (though I could imagine them doing that). There's not a single ranking on Diabloprogress you can top playing self-found.
However, all your 22 ideas don't really solve the problem, as all these suggested rankings can be, will be, and are currently dominated by bots. Point 9... most gold collected? Probably the top 1000 "gold collected" chars in the world are bots.
Account character slots. We have 10. I have 10 characters. I have to delete characters to play ladder? Thats BS. D2 had unlimited accounts able to be tied to one cd key so we had unlimited characters for playing ladder. Diablo 3 was not set up for D2 ladder style and won't effectively copy it.
Errrr, what? You could only create one account per CD key, and there was a maximum of 10 slots per account as well. I remember this exactly because I had 3 CD keys for "mule accounts" and other stuff just because of this.
Well, your argument is right that ladders were controlled by bots, the economy was controlled by bots, and so on. That's exactly why so many people play self-found, and it's the reason why Blizzard is not too keen on creating something like Diabloprogress (though I could imagine them doing that). There's not a single ranking on Diabloprogress you can top playing self-found.
However, all your 22 ideas don't really solve the problem, as all these suggested rankings can be, will be, and are currently dominated by bots. Point 9... most gold collected? Probably the top 1000 "gold collected" chars in the world are bots.
You are completely incorrect about the first point. I had one D2 cd and One LoD cd. I probably in my gaming time with D2 put 20 or 30 accounts on them. Normally around 4-5 at the sametime. The rest of your points are opinion. Yes, bots could control some of the ladder challenges, but not likely all of them. Definitely not the most targeted of a particular monster or item. To be honest, most bots are not gonna enter these challenges as it could redflag their account as being a bot. This is an opt in service and people don't need to gear up to play in it, there is no gain for a bot to enter. They can can keep on making just as much money outside of challenges with less chance of being outed.
Well, maybe you could create more than one account on a CD key... but you couldn't play more than one of them at the time, so there's no point. But on the other hand - I get your point, infinitely many characters. But again, it wouldn't really work with something as paragon 2.0 or the shared stashes in D3, so it's just like buying another copy of the game.
Regarding the challenges... sure, it's an opinion. But we have discussed this so often and so many times, basically everything that makes a bot successful resembles patterns that flag you as a bot. In other words: the most successful players in the world come across as bots as well. And especially the "most gold collected" and "most legendaries" challenged are definitely worthwhile for bots to pursue. So I really fail to see how these challenges would solve anything. Again, we had this discussion months ago and someone pointed out that all these challenges already exist (on Diabloprogress), and we had a discussion how many of these characters were bots.
you want the ah to stay in the game because it is easier for you to get loot that way.
Your entire argument is based on a very, very, faulty assumption. I play self-found and I have for almost a year. I don't defend the AH because I want to use it or because that's how I get gear.
What I don't get is how someone like you can claim that you don't want to be forced into one style of play (using the AH) and then have the outright audacity to say that the thing that's best for the game is for BiS items to be BoA and only available in ladder play.
I think that most people should find a satisfying experience from killing monsters. Personally, I could give a rat's ass if someone gets an item from the AH (or trading) or if they get it from a monster. I don't lose sleep over where other peoples items come from because it doesn't matter, the game isn't a competition. However, I don't think that "ladder play" is equal to "killing monsters" and I think you're being hopelessly naive if you think that the average player wants to be pidgeon-holed into having to re-roll a new character every X months because that's the only possible way to gain BiS items.
What you are saying, and I can't believe I'm repeating myself here, is that LADDER PLAY IS THE ONLY WAY TO GET BIS ITEMS. I fail to see how that solves anything other than forcing people who don't want to play ladders into doing something they don't want to do.
You don't want to use the AH, right You want people to respect that so that self-found play is rewarding and productive, right?
Well, get this through your head... NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE FORCED INTO LADDER PLAY VIA BIS BOA GEAR. It's a very, very, very simple fucking concept and I can't believe you struggle to understand just how detrimental forcing ladder play on EVERYONE would be to the game.
You don't want the AH forced on you but you seem so very comfortable forcing ladder play on everyone else and you can't see exactly how that's hypocritical beyond belief?
If the AH shouldn't be the only way to acquire BiS items then why should ladder play be the only way to acquire BiS items? Why should *I* be forced to play *your* way when *you* don't want to be forced into playing some other guy's way? Why are YOU that important that YOUR WAY should be imposed on others even if they wouldn't find it fun?
The point is that FORCING ANYONE to play the game in a way they don't find enjoyable IS BAD. Blizzard realized this with the AH and they're doing things to reduce the prominence of that particular part of the game. You, however, don't realize this and are doing your best to design a game where ladder play is the only way to get top gear. BOTH ARE TERRIBLE FOR THE GAME.
No one should be forced into the AH if they don't want to use it. No one should be forced into ladder play if they don't enjoy it. What the fuck is so difficult to understand about that?
Well, maybe you could create more than one account on a CD key... but you couldn't play more than one of them at the time, so there's no point. But on the other hand - I get your point, infinitely many characters. But again, it wouldn't really work with something as paragon 2.0 or the shared stashes in D3, so it's just like buying another copy of the game.
Regarding the challenges... sure, it's an opinion. But we have discussed this so often and so many times, basically everything that makes a bot successful resembles patterns that flag you as a bot. In other words: the most successful players in the world come across as bots as well. And especially the "most gold collected" and "most legendaries" challenged are definitely worthwhile for bots to pursue. So I really fail to see how these challenges would solve anything. Again, we had this discussion months ago and someone pointed out that all these challenges already exist (on Diabloprogress), and we had a discussion how many of these characters were bots.
I never multiboxed, only made mule accounts. I don't understand how a most gold collected or most legendaries challenge are worthwhile to a bot. Why would they risk flagging their account as a possible bot account in an opt in service when the reward would be a banner or exclusive account bound dye? Where is it worthwhile? Why would they choose to join a challenge when they can get all the gold and legendaries they want outside of the challenge?
You keep going back to the economy. Why must these challenges fix the economy? These are things for players to do. Ladders never fixed economy. With in 48 hours of an ladder reset every item worth having in d2 was for sale on 3rd party sites. At slightly higher prices of course. Ladders actually kept bots in business.
Did someone seriously say that the ladder race gets very old quickly and that's why we need extra incentive to play the ladder? Then why the need for ladder if the whole point of the ladder system gets old fast?! Ugh. My brain hurts.
You are not willing to farm for the item, but you still want it. I suppose that it is the whole world who is at fault for this common misconception, things have got much easier, much more convenient and you think you are entitled to having everything on a silver platter.
You really should stop making assumptions about how I play the game and then trying to make ad-homenim attacks on me because, just like your wrong assumptions about my AH useage, you're wrong here. The only thing I'm not willing to do is play ladder seasons because I don't get any enjoyment from being forced to re-roll toons.
You said yourself that KILLING MONSTERS should be the primary way to get loot and, guess what, Blizzard along with 99% of the community agrees with you. What people, including myself, disagree with, is that you then made the jump from "killing monsters" being the way to get items to "BiS items should only be available from ladder play."
Like I've said for what seems to be the 50th time: MANY PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO BE INVOLVED IN ROUTINELY STARTING NEW TOONS - in fact, you've admitted that you don't necessarly enjoy rerolling and losing progress. Therefore it's just as arrogant to make ladder play the only way to get top items as it is to make the AH the best way to get top items. It's bad to force players into things they don't want to do, period. It has nothing to do with whether or not someone is lazy or hardcore. It has to do with the fact that, inherently, not everyone is interested in ladder seasons, so putting a gun against their head and telling them "play ladder or have inferior loot" is a horrible suggestion.
Your suggestion of COSMETIC "rewards" however is completely legitemate and you'd probably not hear a single person (myself included) complaining about that.
That said, from my point of view, people who're asking for the hypothetical ladder to not have ladder-only loot are pretty much as selfish as those who do. If you don't care for some items, then don't go farm them where they drop. If you do care, go. I don't get why one person's selfishness/jealousy must supercede another's, everyone's a lootwhore after all!
This is exactly why you can't have ladder-only loot, though. The game is about playing how you want, Blizzard has made that clear. They want us to be able to farm in any act. They don't want us to feel like boss runs are the only way to play the game. Obviously Loot Runs and Nephalem Trials will be balanced against the current areas of the game so as not to make them obsolete.
They've gone to great lengths to say "you are not pidgeon-holed into one style of play." Why would they then turn around and say "well, if you want BiS loot... go play ladder or rot you fucking maggots!" Ladder-only loot, especially BoA BiS loot makes NO SENSE AT ALL given the time they've spent trying to allow us to play the game how we see fit.
The whole point against ladder-only loot is that it is social engineering at its finest and the developers have strayed away from that, attempting to strike a balance such that there is no one "best" way to play the game. Why would they then go an implement a way that is CLEARLY the best way to play the game? It would, essentially, be undermining everything they've done if suddenly ladder-only characters were the best way to play the game.
The only question that needs to be answered here, and has NEVER been answered i this thread or any other ladder-related thread, is: Why should one game mode have superior rewards to another?
Wouldn't people be right to complain if Loot Runs or Nephalem Trials were decidedly better than the rest of the game without some kind of balance (ie: have to farm keys like Infernal Machines and similar mechanics)? Wouldn't people have the right to say "we want to enjoy these features, but we want to enjoy the WHOLE game and not just these two small parts of it?"
Why is it so wrong to have the same approach to ladder play? Why shouldn't ladder play be strictly optional? Why should Blizzard do anything that makes ladder play (or ANY particular feature) mandatory? It's not about someone being "selfish" for not wanting ladder-only loot. It's about us wanting EQUITY and not wanting to be forced into any particular bit of the game.
Remember how people didn't like Act 3 being the only reasonable farming spot due to monster density? The community has a track record of wanting MORE options not FEWER options. That's exactly what this "discussion" is about and that's why ladder-only BiS BoA loot is not a good thing but a severe step backwards.
People who are arguing against ladder-only loot are arguing for EQUITY among all the features of the game. The only selfish people here are the ones who want THEIR chosen play method to have further loot incentives. If I were being selfish I'd say "I like to farm the Keeps in Act 3 and only the Keeps, so I demand that all BiS items drop in the Keeps."
How in the world is it selfish to want all parts of the game to, basically, be equally-rewarding? That's the exact opposite of selfishness, it's EQUITABLE and FAIR. What is so offensive about wanting an even playing field?
As for the rest, people trying to speculate about "the economy" in RoS are being silly. We have no idea how Loot 2.0 is going to pan out, and we don't know exactly how drastically enchanting will effect item circulation (my guess is that it will have a bigger effect that most believe, but that's still speculation). Given that there are MULTIPLE solutions in the pipeline that address item saturation it's pretty obnoxious and ignorant of people to say that we should still lump ladders in there to fix it. It's almost impossible to know how these things will turn out in RoS, so it's a very weak argument to say that they won't work well enough.
Enchanting, by itself, is a major boon to the self-found playstyle since it basiaclly is a "this item has some great stats but other suky stats, now I can fix that" mechanic. The more people playing self-found, whether or not items are BoA, the fewer items circulating. And the point there is that you don't need to explicitly make items BoA to reduce trading. All you need to do is make it possible that people have a rewarding experience when playing self-found.
This is an opinion that I expressed here as well and I don't think anyone has actually rebutted the idea that the best way to make the AH less dominant is simply to make people feel that the self-found experience is "rewarding enough" that they don't have to use the AH to find an upgrade. It's not about the fact that I *could* get better gear from the AH, it has to do with feeling that I can still form a viable, and semi-competitive toon on my own. Most people don't need absolute-BiS gear, at least they don't need to go to the AH to buy it. What people do need is to feel that they have a decent chance of, in the current parlance, making it further than MP6-ish without going to the AH. It doesn't have to do with absolute power, but relative power, and right now there's just too large of a gap between AH and self-found. Close that gap up and see how things go. You might be surprised at the results.
Josh isn't stupid enough to remove the AH, the RMAH, or to start slapping BoA tags on everything just because some internet nerds are whining that the economy in a yet-to-be-released expansion will have problems based on speculation and not evidence. That's the definition of Chicken Little Syndrome. The sky is not falling and we don't need to take drastic measures. So just calm down and breathe.
Also, it's funny that people who don't want to play "AH simulator" want a "good economy." If you're playing self-found the economy shouldn't matter, right? I know it has very little bearing on my in-game experience.
Yeah, I agree. The incentive for playing "ladder mode" should not be "special items" (that was the only reason why I played D2 ladder, actually). It's like forcing people into hardcore mode by having one affix more per item: Many people would switch to HC despite not liking the game mode as such.
I have to disagree with your statement. I have already said this, but it is in our nature to seek the path of least resistance when trying to accomplish a goal( why would you choose the difficult way for the same reward? maybe for fun, but only after you've chosen the easy way several times and you are just bored). Therefore, by playing self-found only when the AH is flooded with the best items in the game would feel wrong. You would feel at a great and crippling disadvantage knowing that you farmed for months for an item that you could have got with 100k gold. That is especially true when pvp is involved or any other ranking system like a ladder. Obviously that solution would be to make BiS items BoA. If you are against BiS items being BoA, i would like to hear your reasoning.
You're splitting hairs and really forcing your views on everyone else.
If self-found is enjoyable and rewarding then what is the NEED to go to the AH? You keep saying that the AH will be "flooded with the best items" and I'm not even debating that. What I'm asking you is that if you're playing the game, not using the AH, and having a good time doing that then.... WHAT DO YOU CARE? If the AH has a bajillion items on it, but because of how the items drop, you feel like you can find what you need on your own... WHAT DOES IT MATTER?
Fundamentally it doesn't matter. If self-found is an enjoyable experience then people aren't going to feel forced into the AH. Key words: ENJOYABLE EXPERIENCE. Every example you give is one where self-found is decidedly worse than using the AH and that's not Blizzard's goal, so why are we using that as an example as to why everything must be BoA? If their goal is to have the AH be ancillary, and not to be the focus, why are you still arguing "but the AH will be the focus?" It's obviously a silly idea to base your argument around a concept that the developers have expressed that they will be working to change.
You're making an argument entirely in a vacuum that's being totally ignorant of the design goals going forward and that's where you're 100% wrong.
If you are playing self-found and you are enjoying it and feel that your playtime is being adequately rewarded, please explain to me why you'd even feel the need to open up the AH?
To be clear I'm against ANY loot (with exceptions like Hellfire Rings, Annihilus charms, perhaps certain craftables, etc.) being BoA. It's a sloppy, cheap, solution and here's why. Instead of all the changes to the game that Blizzard has planned, instead of actually improving loot, Josh decides that all items will be BoA because we use the AH too much. So 1.0.9 is a small patch and turns every item BoA. That doesn't fix the problem, and actually makes the game infinitely shittier.
The problem is the items, how they roll, the stats, trifectas, and the general feeling that everyone has that it's impossible to find their own stuff past a certain gear level. THAT HAS TO BE ADDRESSED. That, alone, means that slapping BoA tags on items is not the solution because it doesn't fix the problem. Sure it stops people from using the AH, but it does so in a way that doesn't improve the game and ignores WHY they're using the AH.
In the past year, around these forums, it's become very clear to me that people feel "forced" into using the AH because they're not finding items on their own - this falls in line with my general experience. People seem to just want to find their own items and seem to only fall back on the AH as a second resort. To me, that means it's pretty logical that if their FIRST CHOICE (finding items on their own) is fruitful and enjoyable that they won't resort to the AH nearly as much, if at all.
You have to address the *why* and BoA only addresses the *what* and leaves the *why* blowing in the wind and that's why it's the worst possible solution. It does nothing to make a solution that is psychologically-satisfying to the actual problem at hand. In the truest sense of the phrase, it's using a machete where a scalpel would be more appropriate.
You're absolutely right that they could make every item in the game BoA. It would keep people from using the AH. But it wouldn't solve the problem that's driving most of those people to the AH to begin with. If you fix that problem then the AH will be there, quitely, in the background instead of in the foreground.
Treat the ailment, not the symptom. BoA treats the symptom, not the ailment, and therefore isn't a very strong cure.
As much as I *prefer* self-found gameplay I would be completely let down by Blizzard if they decided that a moratorium on trading (which is essentially what BoA amounts to) was how they wanted to handle the game. I respect how others choose to play and I don't think that making choices that purposely negate things that people enjoy (within reason, farming urns is an obvious example of bad gameplay) is very good for the game. It's about EQUITY - and telling people they cannot trade because it makes YOU feel inferior is not a reasonable approach to the problem. The only reasonable approach is to give you the ability to be self-empowered and not feel that you must trade.
D2 had a horrible economy due to bots and dupes. A cunning trader could get amazing gear pretty easily. Yet, somehow, that didn't matter to so many people because the self-found experience was fun which leads me to a conclusion, based on evidence from the past, that as long as self-found is fun and rewarding it doesn't matter if other people are trading items.
I thought i was rather clear on this subject but i'll try to convey my thinking on this matter yet again. The fact is that the ladder doesn't usually last more than 6-8 months. It is a complete reset and you lose everything. That is precisely why i believe that the ladder has to have something else to keep the players coming. Otherwise no one would actually play. Be it cosmetic rewards, or some special unique events, there has to be something pulling the player into the ladder. If the race is all there is, players would play once or twice for the thrill and then just farm "normal" mode. Hell, even the ladder being self found only( with no additional items/ events etc) would serve the community quite well, especially if we get a good pvp system.
But why on earth would we need a ladder then? There would be something on ladder mode that some people might desire, but for the (RPG-wise absolutely insane) price of having to say goodbye to your character after a few months. That's just ridiculous. Just give us this stuff in no-ladder mode as well, I say.
It's kinda like saying "I WANT THESE CEREALS" while in fact what you really want is the toy that comes with it inside. Like, in your example, a self-found mode, or these events. If the race isn't enough, then I say we don't need a ladder at all.
With ROS infinite paragon system does that mean a ladder system is coming?
I don't know what the OP had in mind, but the whole point of "resetting" the ladder was because levels were not, in fact, infinite. The only new thing infinite levels brings to the table is a "ladder" without resets, which also makes segregation and exclusive items nonsensical, so a different experience from what we saw in D2.
Thanks to the character DB API, someone will put such a leaderboard site together to rank the highest paragon levels, regardless of Blizzard support.
By that logic Hardcore should have the best rewards in the game because it's obviously the mode which asks the user to make the most sacrifices. Clearly that doesn't hold true because there are people who adore Hardcore mode even though it has the same loot as Softcore.
So, inherently, you're saying that people wouldn't play ladder without special rewards, which means it's a very poor game mode to begin with. If it were a compelling, and interesting, way to play the game then no one would require special rewards to do it.
This is the point that Ruksak made on page 1 that you CONTINUE to dance around.
I am ok with everyone having content designed for their needs, but when someone says that the game should not reward those who play more and are simply better at the game, it frustrates me a lot.
I wasn't aware that playing ladder seasons made you "better at the game" than anyone else. Frankly, this is another completely ridiculous assumption on your part which leads you to the conclusion that ladder players deserve better rewards than others.
What in the world makes you believe that someone who rolls a new toon every X months is a better player than someone else? Ladder play is not even remotely analagous to heroic mode raiding in WoW. It's such a painfully-bad comparison that you should be ashamed you even tried to make it.
Bottom line, if you think that playing ladders made you "better" than people who didn't, you're barking up the wrong tree. If most people hadn't given up trying to reason with you, a comment like that would get you slapped down really fast around here because not only is it completely wrong, but it shows just how egotistical you are.
I'm all for rewarding good players with loot - I think Ubers, in general, are an example of this. I'm not for saying "all people who play this game mode are obviously superior players so let's give special loot to this game mode." That's asinine.
A line has to be drawn somewhere. I am ok with everyone having content designed for their needs, but when someone says that the game should not reward those who play more and are simply better at the game, it frustrates me a lot.
I completely agree. Playing more and being better should yield better rewards. Absolutely. I just don't think these better rewards should be tied to a game mode; may it be HC, SC, self-found, ladder, or whatever. Like many others I actually desired something like Neph Trials, loot runs, or better uber events for better rewards. I'm even in for uber events as in D2 (I've never done that, btw, so never got a Hellfire Torch, but I'm fine with that and I think there should be such things that are not accessible to everyone). But having this tied to certain aspects like "your character has only one life" or "your character will be deleted after 6 months" just doesn't feel right. That's all I'm saying. Game mode should be separated from outstanding rewards.
Btw, I only recently changed my thinking. Two days ago I was about to agree with you that ladder needs an incentive. But then I though "why do I actually want a ladder mode", because as Bleu42 said, the race is over if you don't play like a bot. The only reason I played ladder was because of those runewords, but in the end I was so annoyed by the reset that at some point I stopped playing.
As long as it employs the exact same loot table, I'm down. Those ladder-only items are bullshit, we have no need for such silliness in this game.
That's a little harsh. The whole point of the ladder only rune words and elite uniques was because they didn't have several months or years of itemization build-up. It offers some end game possibilities and, besides, they all roll over to non-ladder anyways.
I encourage a ladder system, even if its extremely similar to Diablo 2. People like to focus on everything that has gone wrong with a system, including Diablo 3, and never point out what went right. There was a lot Diablo 2's ladder system had going for it. It was regular, even now (approximately every 6 months), clean slated economy, it was interesting for those who participated, I could go on and on.
What tends to balkanize the people on the subject of ladder always seems to be an us vs them mentality. I firmly believe this is the wrong approach to the situation. I think that because Diablo 2 had such a stark contrast of environments and economies between ladder and non ladder people really felt completely separated. This was good and bad, in my opinion. For aforementioned reasons, ladder does need to be somewhat sequestered. What good would it do anyone else if they have a plvl 500 account and got to add all those stats to their brand new ladder character, thus, having a significant advantage over everyone. In that regard, it does need to be separate. On another note, one of the largest benefits of ladder is that its supposed to have its own economy (its like turning the game on at launch) in which, theres no pre-existing status carrying over to everyone. That wholesome experience is really what I enjoy about ladder.
Is there a sweet spot? Shit, I don't know. The Diablo 3 community is already spread out and dwindled, at least in my opinion. At this stage, adding a ladder system will further divide the players. That being said, maybe it is for the best. I can sit here and selfishly say that I definitely want a ladder system, but is it for the better of the game and the community? I think that answer is if people enjoy it and use it. Maybe it will attract some of the people who had quit or didn't purchase the game to begin with, to be optimistic.
One thing I'm certain of is that I wouldn't enjoy a ladder system that was built off of existing character bases. I just don't see the point. They could just create a leaderboard for existing characters to achieve that. What I want is an incentive to replay the game and re level characters. Traditional ladder systems that require new characters and new economies have a way of breathing life into a stagnating game-state. As it stands today, if you were to hit paragon level 100 with all five character class choices you would not have a real incentive to log in and play the game afterward. You don't need to make a new character for a new build because you can re-click the skills in the skill tree and you can swap your gear that you've gotten from the auction house.
To me, that is what this game has always lacked, In diablo 2, I must have made over 150 characters, shit, maybe over 200 characters. The incentive to play the game from beginning to end was really there. I do not feel that way with Diablo 3.
One thing that I LARGELY want addressed, at least for non-ladder, is some legitimate means of a gold sink or item sink. Although I DESPISE Bind on Account (BOA) gear, it makes a great effort to relieve the economy of items on a regular basis. With the gold currency, I'd like to see something done there. If we were to extrapolate the gold market from today moving forward, and looking retroactively, we can see that the perpetual influx of gold into the market has created a massive inflation of the inherent gold values. I'm not sure that the quantities that people find monster slaying is capable of remedying that. In other words,great items already cost more gold than you'll ever really find playing the game. It more or less takes a gold purchase with real money, or, it takes an exceptional find and sale to fund the purchases moving forward. It's a deep rooted system and I'm not sure there's an easy fix for that.
As long as it employs the exact same loot table, I'm down. Those ladder-only items are bullshit, we have no need for such silliness in this game.
That's a little harsh. The whole point of the ladder only rune words and elite uniques was because they didn't have several months or years of itemization build-up. It offers some end game possibilities and, besides, they all roll over to non-ladder anyways.
The issue with ladder only items was that it didn't just function as an incentive to play ladder, it functioned in a way that made people feel like they were missing out by not playing ladder. It was exclusive, and not in a good way. Some people don't have the time to sink into ladder play. Therefor, they're relegated to missing out on some of the best items in the game and an entirely different loot drop table.
Myself, I played ladder for years. I hated it. I only played that mode because much of the best items/RW's were there.
The above line is what's wrong with ladder-only items.
I think adding a ladder system into the game would be great if it makes the base of the game appeal to a broader audience without alienating a certain portion of the existing player base, which includes making ladder-specific items, etc.
The issue with ladder only items was that it didn't just function as an incentive to play ladder, it functioned in a way that made people feel like they were missing out by not playing ladder. It was exclusive, and not in a good way. Some people don't have the time to sink into ladder play. Therefor, they're relegated to missing out on some of the best items in the game and an entirely different loot drop table.
Myself, I played ladder for years. I hated it. I only played that mode because much of the best items/RW's were there.
The above line is what's wrong with ladder-only items.
This is kinda the same thing I've been trying to say in this thread for a while (though I wouldn't say I "hated" ladder, it was just "annoying").
As long as it employs the exact same loot table, I'm down. Those ladder-only items are bullshit, we have no need for such silliness in this game.
That's a little harsh. The whole point of the ladder only rune words and elite uniques was because they didn't have several months or years of itemization build-up. It offers some end game possibilities and, besides, they all roll over to non-ladder anyways.
The issue with ladder only items was that it didn't just function as an incentive to play ladder, it functioned in a way that made people feel like they were missing out by not playing ladder. It was exclusive, and not in a good way. Some people don't have the time to sink into ladder play. Therefor, they're relegated to missing out on some of the best items in the game and an entirely different loot drop table.
Myself, I played ladder for years. I hated it. I only played that mode because much of the best items/RW's were there.
The above line is what's wrong with ladder-only items.
Except for the fact that the aforementioned line is completely erroneous. They are only exclusive to ladder on the very first season, after that, they roll into non-ladder economies. Also, the fact remains that drop rates were the same between nonladder and ladder.
As long as it employs the exact same loot table, I'm down. Those ladder-only items are bullshit, we have no need for such silliness in this game.
That's a little harsh. The whole point of the ladder only rune words and elite uniques was because they didn't have several months or years of itemization build-up. It offers some end game possibilities and, besides, they all roll over to non-ladder anyways.
The issue with ladder only items was that it didn't just function as an incentive to play ladder, it functioned in a way that made people feel like they were missing out by not playing ladder. It was exclusive, and not in a good way. Some people don't have the time to sink into ladder play. Therefor, they're relegated to missing out on some of the best items in the game and an entirely different loot drop table.
Myself, I played ladder for years. I hated it. I only played that mode because much of the best items/RW's were there.
The above line is what's wrong with ladder-only items.
Except for the fact that the aforementioned line is completely erroneous. They are only exclusive to ladder on the very first season, after that, they roll into non-ladder economies.
What about those that would like to play self-found?
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Errrr, what? You could only create one account per CD key, and there was a maximum of 10 slots per account as well. I remember this exactly because I had 3 CD keys for "mule accounts" and other stuff just because of this.
Well, your argument is right that ladders were controlled by bots, the economy was controlled by bots, and so on. That's exactly why so many people play self-found, and it's the reason why Blizzard is not too keen on creating something like Diabloprogress (though I could imagine them doing that). There's not a single ranking on Diabloprogress you can top playing self-found.
However, all your 22 ideas don't really solve the problem, as all these suggested rankings can be, will be, and are currently dominated by bots. Point 9... most gold collected? Probably the top 1000 "gold collected" chars in the world are bots.
You are completely incorrect about the first point. I had one D2 cd and One LoD cd. I probably in my gaming time with D2 put 20 or 30 accounts on them. Normally around 4-5 at the sametime. The rest of your points are opinion. Yes, bots could control some of the ladder challenges, but not likely all of them. Definitely not the most targeted of a particular monster or item. To be honest, most bots are not gonna enter these challenges as it could redflag their account as being a bot. This is an opt in service and people don't need to gear up to play in it, there is no gain for a bot to enter. They can can keep on making just as much money outside of challenges with less chance of being outed.
Regarding the challenges... sure, it's an opinion. But we have discussed this so often and so many times, basically everything that makes a bot successful resembles patterns that flag you as a bot. In other words: the most successful players in the world come across as bots as well. And especially the "most gold collected" and "most legendaries" challenged are definitely worthwhile for bots to pursue. So I really fail to see how these challenges would solve anything. Again, we had this discussion months ago and someone pointed out that all these challenges already exist (on Diabloprogress), and we had a discussion how many of these characters were bots.
Your entire argument is based on a very, very, faulty assumption. I play self-found and I have for almost a year. I don't defend the AH because I want to use it or because that's how I get gear.
What I don't get is how someone like you can claim that you don't want to be forced into one style of play (using the AH) and then have the outright audacity to say that the thing that's best for the game is for BiS items to be BoA and only available in ladder play.
I think that most people should find a satisfying experience from killing monsters. Personally, I could give a rat's ass if someone gets an item from the AH (or trading) or if they get it from a monster. I don't lose sleep over where other peoples items come from because it doesn't matter, the game isn't a competition. However, I don't think that "ladder play" is equal to "killing monsters" and I think you're being hopelessly naive if you think that the average player wants to be pidgeon-holed into having to re-roll a new character every X months because that's the only possible way to gain BiS items.
What you are saying, and I can't believe I'm repeating myself here, is that LADDER PLAY IS THE ONLY WAY TO GET BIS ITEMS. I fail to see how that solves anything other than forcing people who don't want to play ladders into doing something they don't want to do.
You don't want to use the AH, right You want people to respect that so that self-found play is rewarding and productive, right?
Well, get this through your head... NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE FORCED INTO LADDER PLAY VIA BIS BOA GEAR. It's a very, very, very simple fucking concept and I can't believe you struggle to understand just how detrimental forcing ladder play on EVERYONE would be to the game.
You don't want the AH forced on you but you seem so very comfortable forcing ladder play on everyone else and you can't see exactly how that's hypocritical beyond belief?
If the AH shouldn't be the only way to acquire BiS items then why should ladder play be the only way to acquire BiS items? Why should *I* be forced to play *your* way when *you* don't want to be forced into playing some other guy's way? Why are YOU that important that YOUR WAY should be imposed on others even if they wouldn't find it fun?
The point is that FORCING ANYONE to play the game in a way they don't find enjoyable IS BAD. Blizzard realized this with the AH and they're doing things to reduce the prominence of that particular part of the game. You, however, don't realize this and are doing your best to design a game where ladder play is the only way to get top gear. BOTH ARE TERRIBLE FOR THE GAME.
No one should be forced into the AH if they don't want to use it. No one should be forced into ladder play if they don't enjoy it. What the fuck is so difficult to understand about that?
I never multiboxed, only made mule accounts. I don't understand how a most gold collected or most legendaries challenge are worthwhile to a bot. Why would they risk flagging their account as a possible bot account in an opt in service when the reward would be a banner or exclusive account bound dye? Where is it worthwhile? Why would they choose to join a challenge when they can get all the gold and legendaries they want outside of the challenge?
You keep going back to the economy. Why must these challenges fix the economy? These are things for players to do. Ladders never fixed economy. With in 48 hours of an ladder reset every item worth having in d2 was for sale on 3rd party sites. At slightly higher prices of course. Ladders actually kept bots in business.
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You really should stop making assumptions about how I play the game and then trying to make ad-homenim attacks on me because, just like your wrong assumptions about my AH useage, you're wrong here. The only thing I'm not willing to do is play ladder seasons because I don't get any enjoyment from being forced to re-roll toons.
You said yourself that KILLING MONSTERS should be the primary way to get loot and, guess what, Blizzard along with 99% of the community agrees with you. What people, including myself, disagree with, is that you then made the jump from "killing monsters" being the way to get items to "BiS items should only be available from ladder play."
Like I've said for what seems to be the 50th time: MANY PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO BE INVOLVED IN ROUTINELY STARTING NEW TOONS - in fact, you've admitted that you don't necessarly enjoy rerolling and losing progress. Therefore it's just as arrogant to make ladder play the only way to get top items as it is to make the AH the best way to get top items. It's bad to force players into things they don't want to do, period. It has nothing to do with whether or not someone is lazy or hardcore. It has to do with the fact that, inherently, not everyone is interested in ladder seasons, so putting a gun against their head and telling them "play ladder or have inferior loot" is a horrible suggestion.
Your suggestion of COSMETIC "rewards" however is completely legitemate and you'd probably not hear a single person (myself included) complaining about that.
This is exactly why you can't have ladder-only loot, though. The game is about playing how you want, Blizzard has made that clear. They want us to be able to farm in any act. They don't want us to feel like boss runs are the only way to play the game. Obviously Loot Runs and Nephalem Trials will be balanced against the current areas of the game so as not to make them obsolete.
They've gone to great lengths to say "you are not pidgeon-holed into one style of play." Why would they then turn around and say "well, if you want BiS loot... go play ladder or rot you fucking maggots!" Ladder-only loot, especially BoA BiS loot makes NO SENSE AT ALL given the time they've spent trying to allow us to play the game how we see fit.
The whole point against ladder-only loot is that it is social engineering at its finest and the developers have strayed away from that, attempting to strike a balance such that there is no one "best" way to play the game. Why would they then go an implement a way that is CLEARLY the best way to play the game? It would, essentially, be undermining everything they've done if suddenly ladder-only characters were the best way to play the game.
The only question that needs to be answered here, and has NEVER been answered i this thread or any other ladder-related thread, is: Why should one game mode have superior rewards to another?
Wouldn't people be right to complain if Loot Runs or Nephalem Trials were decidedly better than the rest of the game without some kind of balance (ie: have to farm keys like Infernal Machines and similar mechanics)? Wouldn't people have the right to say "we want to enjoy these features, but we want to enjoy the WHOLE game and not just these two small parts of it?"
Why is it so wrong to have the same approach to ladder play? Why shouldn't ladder play be strictly optional? Why should Blizzard do anything that makes ladder play (or ANY particular feature) mandatory? It's not about someone being "selfish" for not wanting ladder-only loot. It's about us wanting EQUITY and not wanting to be forced into any particular bit of the game.
Remember how people didn't like Act 3 being the only reasonable farming spot due to monster density? The community has a track record of wanting MORE options not FEWER options. That's exactly what this "discussion" is about and that's why ladder-only BiS BoA loot is not a good thing but a severe step backwards.
People who are arguing against ladder-only loot are arguing for EQUITY among all the features of the game. The only selfish people here are the ones who want THEIR chosen play method to have further loot incentives. If I were being selfish I'd say "I like to farm the Keeps in Act 3 and only the Keeps, so I demand that all BiS items drop in the Keeps."
How in the world is it selfish to want all parts of the game to, basically, be equally-rewarding? That's the exact opposite of selfishness, it's EQUITABLE and FAIR. What is so offensive about wanting an even playing field?
As for the rest, people trying to speculate about "the economy" in RoS are being silly. We have no idea how Loot 2.0 is going to pan out, and we don't know exactly how drastically enchanting will effect item circulation (my guess is that it will have a bigger effect that most believe, but that's still speculation). Given that there are MULTIPLE solutions in the pipeline that address item saturation it's pretty obnoxious and ignorant of people to say that we should still lump ladders in there to fix it. It's almost impossible to know how these things will turn out in RoS, so it's a very weak argument to say that they won't work well enough.
Enchanting, by itself, is a major boon to the self-found playstyle since it basiaclly is a "this item has some great stats but other suky stats, now I can fix that" mechanic. The more people playing self-found, whether or not items are BoA, the fewer items circulating. And the point there is that you don't need to explicitly make items BoA to reduce trading. All you need to do is make it possible that people have a rewarding experience when playing self-found.
This is an opinion that I expressed here as well and I don't think anyone has actually rebutted the idea that the best way to make the AH less dominant is simply to make people feel that the self-found experience is "rewarding enough" that they don't have to use the AH to find an upgrade. It's not about the fact that I *could* get better gear from the AH, it has to do with feeling that I can still form a viable, and semi-competitive toon on my own. Most people don't need absolute-BiS gear, at least they don't need to go to the AH to buy it. What people do need is to feel that they have a decent chance of, in the current parlance, making it further than MP6-ish without going to the AH. It doesn't have to do with absolute power, but relative power, and right now there's just too large of a gap between AH and self-found. Close that gap up and see how things go. You might be surprised at the results.
Josh isn't stupid enough to remove the AH, the RMAH, or to start slapping BoA tags on everything just because some internet nerds are whining that the economy in a yet-to-be-released expansion will have problems based on speculation and not evidence. That's the definition of Chicken Little Syndrome. The sky is not falling and we don't need to take drastic measures. So just calm down and breathe.
Also, it's funny that people who don't want to play "AH simulator" want a "good economy." If you're playing self-found the economy shouldn't matter, right? I know it has very little bearing on my in-game experience.
Yeah, I agree. The incentive for playing "ladder mode" should not be "special items" (that was the only reason why I played D2 ladder, actually). It's like forcing people into hardcore mode by having one affix more per item: Many people would switch to HC despite not liking the game mode as such.
You're splitting hairs and really forcing your views on everyone else.
If self-found is enjoyable and rewarding then what is the NEED to go to the AH? You keep saying that the AH will be "flooded with the best items" and I'm not even debating that. What I'm asking you is that if you're playing the game, not using the AH, and having a good time doing that then.... WHAT DO YOU CARE? If the AH has a bajillion items on it, but because of how the items drop, you feel like you can find what you need on your own... WHAT DOES IT MATTER?
Fundamentally it doesn't matter. If self-found is an enjoyable experience then people aren't going to feel forced into the AH. Key words: ENJOYABLE EXPERIENCE. Every example you give is one where self-found is decidedly worse than using the AH and that's not Blizzard's goal, so why are we using that as an example as to why everything must be BoA? If their goal is to have the AH be ancillary, and not to be the focus, why are you still arguing "but the AH will be the focus?" It's obviously a silly idea to base your argument around a concept that the developers have expressed that they will be working to change.
You're making an argument entirely in a vacuum that's being totally ignorant of the design goals going forward and that's where you're 100% wrong.
If you are playing self-found and you are enjoying it and feel that your playtime is being adequately rewarded, please explain to me why you'd even feel the need to open up the AH?
To be clear I'm against ANY loot (with exceptions like Hellfire Rings, Annihilus charms, perhaps certain craftables, etc.) being BoA. It's a sloppy, cheap, solution and here's why. Instead of all the changes to the game that Blizzard has planned, instead of actually improving loot, Josh decides that all items will be BoA because we use the AH too much. So 1.0.9 is a small patch and turns every item BoA. That doesn't fix the problem, and actually makes the game infinitely shittier.
The problem is the items, how they roll, the stats, trifectas, and the general feeling that everyone has that it's impossible to find their own stuff past a certain gear level. THAT HAS TO BE ADDRESSED. That, alone, means that slapping BoA tags on items is not the solution because it doesn't fix the problem. Sure it stops people from using the AH, but it does so in a way that doesn't improve the game and ignores WHY they're using the AH.
In the past year, around these forums, it's become very clear to me that people feel "forced" into using the AH because they're not finding items on their own - this falls in line with my general experience. People seem to just want to find their own items and seem to only fall back on the AH as a second resort. To me, that means it's pretty logical that if their FIRST CHOICE (finding items on their own) is fruitful and enjoyable that they won't resort to the AH nearly as much, if at all.
You have to address the *why* and BoA only addresses the *what* and leaves the *why* blowing in the wind and that's why it's the worst possible solution. It does nothing to make a solution that is psychologically-satisfying to the actual problem at hand. In the truest sense of the phrase, it's using a machete where a scalpel would be more appropriate.
You're absolutely right that they could make every item in the game BoA. It would keep people from using the AH. But it wouldn't solve the problem that's driving most of those people to the AH to begin with. If you fix that problem then the AH will be there, quitely, in the background instead of in the foreground.
Treat the ailment, not the symptom. BoA treats the symptom, not the ailment, and therefore isn't a very strong cure.
As much as I *prefer* self-found gameplay I would be completely let down by Blizzard if they decided that a moratorium on trading (which is essentially what BoA amounts to) was how they wanted to handle the game. I respect how others choose to play and I don't think that making choices that purposely negate things that people enjoy (within reason, farming urns is an obvious example of bad gameplay) is very good for the game. It's about EQUITY - and telling people they cannot trade because it makes YOU feel inferior is not a reasonable approach to the problem. The only reasonable approach is to give you the ability to be self-empowered and not feel that you must trade.
D2 had a horrible economy due to bots and dupes. A cunning trader could get amazing gear pretty easily. Yet, somehow, that didn't matter to so many people because the self-found experience was fun which leads me to a conclusion, based on evidence from the past, that as long as self-found is fun and rewarding it doesn't matter if other people are trading items.
But why on earth would we need a ladder then? There would be something on ladder mode that some people might desire, but for the (RPG-wise absolutely insane) price of having to say goodbye to your character after a few months. That's just ridiculous. Just give us this stuff in no-ladder mode as well, I say.
It's kinda like saying "I WANT THESE CEREALS" while in fact what you really want is the toy that comes with it inside. Like, in your example, a self-found mode, or these events. If the race isn't enough, then I say we don't need a ladder at all.
I don't know what the OP had in mind, but the whole point of "resetting" the ladder was because levels were not, in fact, infinite. The only new thing infinite levels brings to the table is a "ladder" without resets, which also makes segregation and exclusive items nonsensical, so a different experience from what we saw in D2.
Thanks to the character DB API, someone will put such a leaderboard site together to rank the highest paragon levels, regardless of Blizzard support.
So, inherently, you're saying that people wouldn't play ladder without special rewards, which means it's a very poor game mode to begin with. If it were a compelling, and interesting, way to play the game then no one would require special rewards to do it.
This is the point that Ruksak made on page 1 that you CONTINUE to dance around.
I wasn't aware that playing ladder seasons made you "better at the game" than anyone else. Frankly, this is another completely ridiculous assumption on your part which leads you to the conclusion that ladder players deserve better rewards than others.
What in the world makes you believe that someone who rolls a new toon every X months is a better player than someone else? Ladder play is not even remotely analagous to heroic mode raiding in WoW. It's such a painfully-bad comparison that you should be ashamed you even tried to make it.
Bottom line, if you think that playing ladders made you "better" than people who didn't, you're barking up the wrong tree. If most people hadn't given up trying to reason with you, a comment like that would get you slapped down really fast around here because not only is it completely wrong, but it shows just how egotistical you are.
I'm all for rewarding good players with loot - I think Ubers, in general, are an example of this. I'm not for saying "all people who play this game mode are obviously superior players so let's give special loot to this game mode." That's asinine.
Well put. You're right that no one should take the "high ground".
But as an answer to what you said and to this:
I completely agree. Playing more and being better should yield better rewards. Absolutely. I just don't think these better rewards should be tied to a game mode; may it be HC, SC, self-found, ladder, or whatever. Like many others I actually desired something like Neph Trials, loot runs, or better uber events for better rewards. I'm even in for uber events as in D2 (I've never done that, btw, so never got a Hellfire Torch, but I'm fine with that and I think there should be such things that are not accessible to everyone). But having this tied to certain aspects like "your character has only one life" or "your character will be deleted after 6 months" just doesn't feel right. That's all I'm saying. Game mode should be separated from outstanding rewards.
Btw, I only recently changed my thinking. Two days ago I was about to agree with you that ladder needs an incentive. But then I though "why do I actually want a ladder mode", because as Bleu42 said, the race is over if you don't play like a bot. The only reason I played ladder was because of those runewords, but in the end I was so annoyed by the reset that at some point I stopped playing.
That's a little harsh. The whole point of the ladder only rune words and elite uniques was because they didn't have several months or years of itemization build-up. It offers some end game possibilities and, besides, they all roll over to non-ladder anyways.
I encourage a ladder system, even if its extremely similar to Diablo 2. People like to focus on everything that has gone wrong with a system, including Diablo 3, and never point out what went right. There was a lot Diablo 2's ladder system had going for it. It was regular, even now (approximately every 6 months), clean slated economy, it was interesting for those who participated, I could go on and on.
What tends to balkanize the people on the subject of ladder always seems to be an us vs them mentality. I firmly believe this is the wrong approach to the situation. I think that because Diablo 2 had such a stark contrast of environments and economies between ladder and non ladder people really felt completely separated. This was good and bad, in my opinion. For aforementioned reasons, ladder does need to be somewhat sequestered. What good would it do anyone else if they have a plvl 500 account and got to add all those stats to their brand new ladder character, thus, having a significant advantage over everyone. In that regard, it does need to be separate. On another note, one of the largest benefits of ladder is that its supposed to have its own economy (its like turning the game on at launch) in which, theres no pre-existing status carrying over to everyone. That wholesome experience is really what I enjoy about ladder.
Is there a sweet spot? Shit, I don't know. The Diablo 3 community is already spread out and dwindled, at least in my opinion. At this stage, adding a ladder system will further divide the players. That being said, maybe it is for the best. I can sit here and selfishly say that I definitely want a ladder system, but is it for the better of the game and the community? I think that answer is if people enjoy it and use it. Maybe it will attract some of the people who had quit or didn't purchase the game to begin with, to be optimistic.
One thing I'm certain of is that I wouldn't enjoy a ladder system that was built off of existing character bases. I just don't see the point. They could just create a leaderboard for existing characters to achieve that. What I want is an incentive to replay the game and re level characters. Traditional ladder systems that require new characters and new economies have a way of breathing life into a stagnating game-state. As it stands today, if you were to hit paragon level 100 with all five character class choices you would not have a real incentive to log in and play the game afterward. You don't need to make a new character for a new build because you can re-click the skills in the skill tree and you can swap your gear that you've gotten from the auction house.
To me, that is what this game has always lacked, In diablo 2, I must have made over 150 characters, shit, maybe over 200 characters. The incentive to play the game from beginning to end was really there. I do not feel that way with Diablo 3.
One thing that I LARGELY want addressed, at least for non-ladder, is some legitimate means of a gold sink or item sink. Although I DESPISE Bind on Account (BOA) gear, it makes a great effort to relieve the economy of items on a regular basis. With the gold currency, I'd like to see something done there. If we were to extrapolate the gold market from today moving forward, and looking retroactively, we can see that the perpetual influx of gold into the market has created a massive inflation of the inherent gold values. I'm not sure that the quantities that people find monster slaying is capable of remedying that. In other words,great items already cost more gold than you'll ever really find playing the game. It more or less takes a gold purchase with real money, or, it takes an exceptional find and sale to fund the purchases moving forward. It's a deep rooted system and I'm not sure there's an easy fix for that.
The issue with ladder only items was that it didn't just function as an incentive to play ladder, it functioned in a way that made people feel like they were missing out by not playing ladder. It was exclusive, and not in a good way. Some people don't have the time to sink into ladder play. Therefor, they're relegated to missing out on some of the best items in the game and an entirely different loot drop table.
Myself, I played ladder for years. I hated it. I only played that mode because much of the best items/RW's were there.
The above line is what's wrong with ladder-only items.
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This is kinda the same thing I've been trying to say in this thread for a while (though I wouldn't say I "hated" ladder, it was just "annoying").
Except for the fact that the aforementioned line is completely erroneous. They are only exclusive to ladder on the very first season, after that, they roll into non-ladder economies. Also, the fact remains that drop rates were the same between nonladder and ladder.
What about those that would like to play self-found?