You are so naive to think they were working that much on PvP. We haven't heard a single word about PvP since release and they were working on unplanned features like legendaries, paragon levels, monster power, etc, and knowing Blizzard's work speed and laziness it would be no surprise that they haven't really done much with PvP at all since release.
Their plan was to start working on PvP right after release, but game was so bad that many hours went to unexpected features and not on PvP. So don't say that they worked on PvP for many months and only now decided to scrap everything - that's ridiculous
Funny, I thought lots of people tried PvP during the Blizzcons? Perhaps there were some videos out there?
Reading this thread I think the only safe conclusion that we can draw is that the internet is full of armchair quarterbacks and Monday morning coaches who claim to know how to do everything better but only after they've seen mistakes.
The best thing I did to improve my enjoyment of D3 was to stop coming to these forums because it's full of whiney people who will absolutely never be happy with anything under any circumstances but take great pleasure in trying to make everyone else miserable too. Sure there are some people who can see the forest for the trees and I applaud them, but the majority of the posters here are self-righteous, indignant, twats who wouldn't be happy if Jay Wilson personally delivered them a gold-plated Lamborghini. Nope, they'd go to the forums and whine that they wanted a Porsche 911, or that the gold-plating process took too long.
Reading this thread I think the only safe conclusion that we can draw is that the internet is full of armchair quarterbacks and Monday morning coaches who claim to know how to do everything better but only after they've seen mistakes.
The best thing I did to improve my enjoyment of D3 was to stop coming to these forums because it's full of whiney people who will absolutely never be happy with anything under any circumstances but take great pleasure in trying to make everyone else miserable too. Sure there are some people who can see the forest for the trees and I applaud them, but the majority of the posters here are self-righteous, indignant, twats who wouldn't be happy if Jay Wilson personally delivered them a gold-plated Lamborghini. Nope, they'd go to the forums and whine that they wanted a Porsche 911, or that the gold-plating process took too long.
This is for all the folks that take the general stance of "you'll never be happy with what they give you - because everyone wants something different - stop whining"
I don't care about PVP. I never dueld in D2 and I detested PVP in WoW. So this announcement doesn't phase me at all.
But. The general dissappointed response is totally DESERVED and ACCEPTABLE. BECAUSE Blizzard makes promises. They advertise content and "sell" it to you. And then they make you wait. And wait. And then they tell you "what we've developed, isn't what we think is in line with our development ideal for this game, so we are breaking our promise of content - sorry"
They are a business. They promise you product. They fail to deliver that product. ANGRY customer reaction = totally acceptable.
Please do not get mad at the folks that are unwilling to turn the other cheek. Instead - spend your time asking Blizzard to fulfill their promises. Because apparently when they don't - it ruins your forum reading because you have to wade through angry posts at Blizzard's failure.
Blizzard should expect the fallout they are getting. They made people wait for seven months. And then handed them a consilation prize that is a slap in the face compared to what they promised.
A pair of nice Lacuni's says that Deathmatch - Coop capture the flag - Coop hold the fortress gameplay is in the next expansion.
They know the game you want - they aren't stupid. They also know that they aren't going to give you everything in one game. They are going to space it out over expansions. Because $$$ is mostly all they see - not your enjoyment.
The actual D2 players:
The gamers from that era are no longer 18 or 19 years old, we're more like late 20s even 30s - we know how the world works, we've lived with absolute rubbish games back in the day and we appreciate the up and downsides of D3. We also know that Blizzard generally still provides the best quality and content when compared to any other game developer out there.
I think to this layer of gamers the game is ok. It's not brilliant yet, but it's definitely not something to cry about every day before sleep. 40-50 bucks is not something to cry about either, hell - beer for one night could cost way more than that. D3 is a potentially fantastic platform, give it some time and it will possibly develop into superb game, just like D2 did with LOD release - because lets face it original D2 was pretty damn boring.
The i played D2 gamers:
Yep they are early 20s or even below that, yet somehow despite the simplest calculus they played D2 for many years, even the original... These guys want INSTANT GRATIFICATION. They want to whine and cry and demand things - because lets face it - the modern society rewards whining and crying and demanding - that's the only thing they know and that's the only thing they will ever do.
They are the one and only mistake Blizzard ever made - listening to QQQQqqqQQQqqqQQqqqQQQ. Back in the day Blizzard never did bother with as much 'community management' or even really reading forums. They just released content and it was a simple decision - play it if you like, if you don't - there are many other games to choose from.
Today, because of all these QQs Blizzard actually made a step forward towards community and started working with the community (unlike any other game developer out there), and the only result of them trying to 'satisfy' the 'instant gratification generation' is the incessantly increasing amount of QQ. Because now...the QQers feel empowered! Blizzard did react to them a few times and that was their biggest mistake.
Hence there will always be 2 sides to this argument, and this argument is not based on the game itself, it is rather based on the perception of the world in general and the gap between generations. There will never be any agreement about it or any solution. If 'instant gratification' is not achieved = it's shit. End of story. Screw waiting, screw everything. I paid 40 bucks i want it NOW. While the rest of us are thinking 'wdf have we done to our younger generation? Should've sent them out to work at the age of 16 like we did instead'
I bet that if you take 100 D3 players (who also played D2 and D1) and have them describe how they would want D3 to be, you will get 100 different answers and if those people try to cooperate, compromise their "wants" and make an "up-to-date" diablo game, you will have D3 as it is now, more or less, minus the auction house, maybe.
Also,
Three things were certain about D3, even before it's release:
1. It would sell well and a lot of people will like it.
2. A lot of people would whine and compare it with D2 (yup, I did that a bit when D2 was released and compared it with D1 but then I got over it quickly! )
3. People would whine and cry about pvp for a) it wasn't released on time and when it is released there will be a massive rage because a certain build from a certain class will be slightly better.
(ps. PvP was never a main focus for blizzard in diablo games. it was ALWAYS a treat, an extra feature, a bonus, a way to say thank you. Instead, atm with all the whining taking place and the massive criticism around the corner, they will have to focus even more on that)
Two things.
One, what exactly were you crying about D2 compared to D1, D2 was an upgrade in every way.
Two, the auction house ruining Diablo is a huge misconception. If you wanted to spend hours in the trade channels for gear in D2 you could, you weren't forced into it. No one would be complaining about the auction house if we could find gear in game, that is the issue with the auction house, it's the only place to find gear. The auction house is a huge improvement to trading.
Not in every way, gameplay wise, yes, no doubt, however, D1 had an atmosphere that D2 couldn't even scratch.
I love people that still have hope for this game. Good for you guys.....for having hope....but it being for Blizzard....im not so sure.
Blizzard released a half finished game. They lied about PvP content. I can probably see Diablo being decent 1-2 years from now....a bit too late for me. 12+ years is a bit too much.
"For us it comes to a few issues, one of which is depth. Simply fighting each other with no other objectives or choices to make gets old relatively quickly." .
Some of the best Player VS Player games i've ever played had no rewards for winning. From Street Fighter 2 to Left 4 Dead.
We don't need some Call of Dooody fluff to make us feel like we earned something.. We don't need rewards, rankings or ladders. If thats their excuse for not releasing arena's then they are all flat out retarded or must think everyone who plays D3 is.
People PVP because its fun, thats enough of a reward. Thats why i pvpd in D2.... Because it was fun.
Seriously, what a slap in the face.. 7 months of wait for them to say they scrapped it because a "THEY" say its not fun.
I mean, don't PTR it or nothing, we don't want the actual players having an opinion especically after a 7 month wait... Just take their word for it because Jay Wilson knows what fun is, not us monkeys.
I forgot where but that long photo jpeg describing what is wrong with the loot is basically why I stopped playing. This combined with the fact they cant get PVP up after 6 months after release.
Sigh, goodbye blizzard.
*cues song
...as we go on, we remember, all the times we, had together...
I don't usually make this kind of threads, seriously, but.. after reading the news about PvP... it is.. beyond frustrating.
And I couldn't care less about PvP, to me, the PvE aspect of the game is more important, but, even so, they are a hell of a company (or at least they were) and they take amateurish decisions like this one...
Sigh.../
soooo.... to you making the decision to cut a feature and re-do it because it doesn't deliver is 'amateurish' ? I do believe you need to look up that word.
I don't usually make this kind of threads, seriously, but.. after reading the news about PvP... it is.. beyond frustrating.
And I couldn't care less about PvP, to me, the PvE aspect of the game is more important, but, even so, they are a hell of a company (or at least they were) and they take amateurish decisions like this one...
Sigh.../
soooo.... to you making the decision to cut a feature and re-do it because it doesn't deliver is 'amateurish' ? I do believe you need to look up that word.
Wrong... THEY made the desision to scrap something for no reason after making players wait 7 months for nothing. I do believe you need to do some research and check out videos of pvp arena from PRE D3 release. It worked just fine.
When they say "THEY' think it doesn't deliver or it wasn't fun without any actual PTR is a lie. Wheres the proof? They? Whos they? Its sure as hell wasn't US the actual players.
Deliver "US" the arenas a let "US" tell them what needs to be re-worked. Thats how its really done.
I forgot where but that long photo jpeg describing what is wrong with the loot is basically why I stopped playing. This combined with the fact they cant get PVP up after 6 months after release.
Sigh, goodbye blizzard.
*cues song
...as we go on, we remember, all the times we, had together...
"For us it comes to a few issues, one of which is depth. Simply fighting each other with no other objectives or choices to make gets old relatively quickly." .
Some of the best Player VS Player games i've ever played had no rewards for winning. From Street Fighter 2 to Left 4 Dead.
We don't need some Call of Dooody fluff to make us feel like we earned something.. We don't need rewards, rankings or ladders. If thats their excuse for not releasing arena's then they are all flat out retarded or must think everyone who plays D3 is.
People PVP because its fun, thats enough of a reward. Thats why i pvpd in D2.... Because it was fun.
Seriously, what a slap in the face.. 7 months of wait for them to say they scrapped it because a "THEY" say its not fun.
I mean, don't PTR it or nothing, we don't want the actual players having an opinion especically after a 7 month wait... Just take their word for it because Jay Wilson knows what fun is, not us monkeys.
I agree. But for me the slap in the face comes from the obvious lie that it would lack depth etc, when in fact it has probably been finished for some time now. I think Jay Wilson said in his tweets that the pvp blog will be coming soon and be massive, while in fact it was decided and carefully planned upstairs to save it for a time when they could make more profit with it. We get the very minimum, they get the maximum.
Jay Wilson is either the fall guy from greedy investors or the biggest, dumbest, useless game dev in the future of modern video games.
I agree with what you said.
Even the hype of the blog before it was released is a crock. So basically his pvp blog was delayed for what? Delayed so some other person could find a way to reword everything he said and make look like they tried and really cared? Also, delayed til a day after xmas so they swipe in a few more xmas sales?
Because lets face it... PVP BLOG comming soon didn't mention anything about PVP being scraped all togther. It hinted as if if good news was comming for everyone who waited.
So now. A simple, easy to work arena style pvp in point and click hack and slash land won't work... Until the expansion pack comes out?
Wrong... THEY made the desision to scrap something for no reason after making players wait 7 months for nothing. I do believe you need to do some research and check out videos of pvp arena from PRE D3 release. It worked just fine.
When they say "THEY' think it doesn't deliver or it wasn't fun without any actual PTR is a lie. Wheres the proof? They? Whos they? Its sure as hell wasn't US the actual players.
Deliver "US" the arenas a let "US" tell them what needs to be re-worked. Thats how its really done.
That's how absolutely no big company does it, ever. And if you know one I suggest you go to it so it can listen to you for years and years.
If I don't sell my account before they release any of this stuff... I'll give it a try and base my opinion on it afterwards.
I'm not a huge fan of dueling, though. I'd prefer something more epic. If only they could do something like Battlefield, that'd be insane (game engine would die, though).
First of all, I don't care about PvP - never PvP'ed in all my years of D2 and never expect to do so in D3. But there's one thing I find kind of odd about this announcement.
"For us it comes to a few issues, one of which is depth. Simply fighting each other with no other objectives or choices to make gets old relatively quickly."
Sure. It may well get old relatively quickly. But you know what? For the people who do care about PvP, having no PvP, not even fights without objectives, that has already gotten really old.
Why not release a simple implementation - "fighting each other with no other objectives or choices" - and then work on iterating it?
Especially given that D3 PvP is certain to need a lot of shaking down - as many people have said already, it's a PvE game at core, with massive power inflation. It's going to take a lot of tweaking to make PvP playable. Why not do that tweaking while people are just fighting meaningless duels, so when you do add more in-depth PvP features, there's already a modicum of balance in there?
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Wise ElderFunny, I thought lots of people tried PvP during the Blizzcons? Perhaps there were some videos out there?
Ha. Bagstone.
The best thing I did to improve my enjoyment of D3 was to stop coming to these forums because it's full of whiney people who will absolutely never be happy with anything under any circumstances but take great pleasure in trying to make everyone else miserable too. Sure there are some people who can see the forest for the trees and I applaud them, but the majority of the posters here are self-righteous, indignant, twats who wouldn't be happy if Jay Wilson personally delivered them a gold-plated Lamborghini. Nope, they'd go to the forums and whine that they wanted a Porsche 911, or that the gold-plating process took too long.
Misery loves company and so does hand-wringing.
I agree with this post.
I don't care about PVP. I never dueld in D2 and I detested PVP in WoW. So this announcement doesn't phase me at all.
But. The general dissappointed response is totally DESERVED and ACCEPTABLE. BECAUSE Blizzard makes promises. They advertise content and "sell" it to you. And then they make you wait. And wait. And then they tell you "what we've developed, isn't what we think is in line with our development ideal for this game, so we are breaking our promise of content - sorry"
They are a business. They promise you product. They fail to deliver that product. ANGRY customer reaction = totally acceptable.
Please do not get mad at the folks that are unwilling to turn the other cheek. Instead - spend your time asking Blizzard to fulfill their promises. Because apparently when they don't - it ruins your forum reading because you have to wade through angry posts at Blizzard's failure.
Blizzard should expect the fallout they are getting. They made people wait for seven months. And then handed them a consilation prize that is a slap in the face compared to what they promised.
A pair of nice Lacuni's says that Deathmatch - Coop capture the flag - Coop hold the fortress gameplay is in the next expansion.
They know the game you want - they aren't stupid. They also know that they aren't going to give you everything in one game. They are going to space it out over expansions. Because $$$ is mostly all they see - not your enjoyment.
Monkalicious: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/OptimusPrime-12194/hero/79139477
There is some true wisdom to this post. Kudos.
Not in every way, gameplay wise, yes, no doubt, however, D1 had an atmosphere that D2 couldn't even scratch.
Blizzard released a half finished game. They lied about PvP content. I can probably see Diablo being decent 1-2 years from now....a bit too late for me. 12+ years is a bit too much.
I dunno.. Maybe the people who actually WANTED PVP???!!
Seeeeesh. PVM cares bears need to shaaaaaaad up about their opinons about pvp. Think about what the pvp fans want instead of what you want.
Blame blizzard for stringing them along.
Some of the best Player VS Player games i've ever played had no rewards for winning. From Street Fighter 2 to Left 4 Dead.
We don't need some Call of Dooody fluff to make us feel like we earned something.. We don't need rewards, rankings or ladders. If thats their excuse for not releasing arena's then they are all flat out retarded or must think everyone who plays D3 is.
People PVP because its fun, thats enough of a reward. Thats why i pvpd in D2.... Because it was fun.
Seriously, what a slap in the face.. 7 months of wait for them to say they scrapped it because a "THEY" say its not fun.
I mean, don't PTR it or nothing, we don't want the actual players having an opinion especically after a 7 month wait... Just take their word for it because Jay Wilson knows what fun is, not us monkeys.
Sigh, goodbye blizzard.
*cues song
...as we go on, we remember, all the times we, had together...
soooo.... to you making the decision to cut a feature and re-do it because it doesn't deliver is 'amateurish' ? I do believe you need to look up that word.
Wrong... THEY made the desision to scrap something for no reason after making players wait 7 months for nothing. I do believe you need to do some research and check out videos of pvp arena from PRE D3 release. It worked just fine.
When they say "THEY' think it doesn't deliver or it wasn't fun without any actual PTR is a lie. Wheres the proof? They? Whos they? Its sure as hell wasn't US the actual players.
Deliver "US" the arenas a let "US" tell them what needs to be re-worked. Thats how its really done.
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9989/infographiclarge.png
Jay Wilson is either the fall guy from greedy investors or the biggest, dumbest, useless game dev in the future of modern video games.
I agree with what you said.
Even the hype of the blog before it was released is a crock. So basically his pvp blog was delayed for what? Delayed so some other person could find a way to reword everything he said and make look like they tried and really cared? Also, delayed til a day after xmas so they swipe in a few more xmas sales?
Because lets face it... PVP BLOG comming soon didn't mention anything about PVP being scraped all togther. It hinted as if if good news was comming for everyone who waited.
So now. A simple, easy to work arena style pvp in point and click hack and slash land won't work... Until the expansion pack comes out?
Really?
....Amazing how things work.
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Wise ElderThat's how absolutely no big company does it, ever. And if you know one I suggest you go to it so it can listen to you for years and years.
Ha. Bagstone.
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Wise ElderI'm not a huge fan of dueling, though. I'd prefer something more epic. If only they could do something like Battlefield, that'd be insane (game engine would die, though).
Armory | YouTube | Twitter | Clan Site
"For us it comes to a few issues, one of which is depth. Simply fighting each other with no other objectives or choices to make gets old relatively quickly."
Sure. It may well get old relatively quickly. But you know what? For the people who do care about PvP, having no PvP, not even fights without objectives, that has already gotten really old.
Why not release a simple implementation - "fighting each other with no other objectives or choices" - and then work on iterating it?
Especially given that D3 PvP is certain to need a lot of shaking down - as many people have said already, it's a PvE game at core, with massive power inflation. It's going to take a lot of tweaking to make PvP playable. Why not do that tweaking while people are just fighting meaningless duels, so when you do add more in-depth PvP features, there's already a modicum of balance in there?