I don't think it is less clicking. But anyway, it would give us too big of an edge to be able to move like that. It would be quite easy to run and shot at the same time. But if you couldn't run and shot at the same time like it is now (except strafe) then I honestly don't see the point of having WSAD at all. In console version when/if it is released you will probably be able to do both shoot and run as otherwise it will be to awkward for console players. But possibly they won't be able to select any mobs but only ones first in line, kinda like in FPS games. I would like to see what they have in mind for consoles.
Diablo works great as a clicker just get the hell over it already. THEY ARE NOT GOING T CHANGE IT. So this discussion is mute.
I believe the word you are looking for is "Moot", I also think that word doesn't mean what you think it means. Moot means a subject is debatable, which is what we are doing now, debating.
I'll give you that I used the wrong word, it is Moot. But the second definition of Moot is: oflittleorno practical value or meaning;purelyacademic. So yes, it does mean what I think it means. They are not going to change it so the discussion is moot, or pointless.
I'll give you that I used the wrong word, it is Moot. But the second definition of Moot is: oflittleorno practical value or meaning;purelyacademic. So yes, it does mean what I think it means. They are not going to change it so the discussion is moot, or pointless.
Granted. But why is it pointless? Just because a feature doesn't exist doesn't mean it can't exist in the future. They have already talked about making the game for consoles which would use a similar control scheme and community feedback and requests have made blizzard consider changes before. Hardly makes discussing it pointless.
If you don't like the conversation, don't contribute or don't bother reading it. No one is forcing you to read it or like it.
Diablo works great as a clicker just get the hell over it already. THEY ARE NOT GOING T CHANGE IT. So this discussion is mute.
I believe the word you are looking for is "Moot", I also think that word doesn't mean what you think it means. Moot means a subject is debatable, which is what we are doing now, debating.
So the word you're probably going for is "pointless"... however, the requesting of an optional system is never pointless. A control scheme like this would work very well in Diablo 3. Using WSAD for the 4 cardinal directions (up, down, left, right) works in other games that are top down (or isometric). Truth is, adding it as option means it wouldn't change anything for the game as you may want to play it.
He was clearly attempting to use the second definition - of little or no practical value or meaning
Aka the discussion of whether or not WASD movement works well with Diablo is moot because they are not going to impliment it for a variety of logistical reasons.
He was clearly attempting to use the second definition - of little or no practical value or meaning
Aka the discussion of whether or not WASD movement works well with Diablo is moot because they are not going to impliment it for a variety of logistical reasons.
Yes, I've gotten that and that point is withdrawn, the first and last points still stand
I'll give you that I used the wrong word, it is Moot. But the second definition of Moot is: oflittleorno practical value or meaning;purelyacademic. So yes, it does mean what I think it means. They are not going to change it so the discussion is moot, or pointless.
Granted. But why is it pointless? Just because a feature doesn't exist doesn't mean it can't exist in the future. They have already talked about making the game for consoles which would use a similar control scheme and community feedback and requests have made blizzard consider changes before. Hardly makes discussing it pointless.
If you don't like the conversation, don't contribute or don't bother reading it. No one is forcing you to read it or like it.
Creating a game for consoles and changing the way it works on PC is two different things. Plus they WONT change it. Diablo, since its inception has been navigated with the mouse. This is due to many reasons, but that is how the game is. Change it and you fundamentally change the game. Which is why the WONT change it. These topics generaaly gome from people who have not really played the game very much and just like to complain because the game isn't what they are used to. Why should it be changed to please a small minority within the community when it works completely well the way it is? One suggestion was to make it an option, which wont work well with an isometric camera, even if it wasn't perfect. Blizzard wont do this either because it goes against their design philsophy. So yes, the thread is moot.
Creating a game for consoles and changing the way it works on PC is two different things. Plus they WONT change it. Diablo, since its inception has been navigated with the mouse. This is due to many reasons, but that is how the game is. Change it and you fundamentally change the game. Which is why the WONT change it. These topics generaaly gome from people who have not really played the game very much and just like to complain because the game isn't what they are used to. Why should it be changed to please a small minority within the community when it works completely well the way it is? One suggestion was to make it an option, which wont work well with an isometric camera, even if it wasn't perfect. Blizzard wont do this either because it goes against their design philsophy. So yes, the thread is moot.
You could take that same argument about the skill trees and those got changed. I've played lots of Diablo and I've played other games that use a similar style camera with WSAD movement, it's just a matter of personal preference. I've already said I don't mind either way, clicking is how I played D2 and expect to play D3, but if people want to talk about the pros and cons of using a different control scheme, they should be able to.
The argument of "it's always been that way" is a horrible counterpoint. Just because something has "always been" doesn't mean it has to stay. To this I again reference skills trees, but I also reference weapon damage percentages. Casters used to always be based off flat damage with +skill enhancing them. Now it's all weapon based. Both are very fundamental changes to the original "core" of Diablo 2 and have been changed.
If you think it's pointless based solely on the fact that you don't like it, that's fine, that's a valid argument. Personal taste makes a difference in things like this because game design and art are a subjective. The argument of "it's always been that way" leads to stagnation and and Blizzard is always looking for ways to improve. Especially considering that the request is supplemental, people want it as an alternative not as a replacement.
Just to be perfectly clear, I am happy either way, I like the game play as is. I just feel that a Devil's Advocate is warranted here. Besides, I wouldn't mind having it either.
My counterpoint isn't that it should stay that way just because it's always been that way. It's always been that way becaus that is how Blizzard wants it. Because that is how Blizzard wants it, it WILL stay that way. Plus I am a big fan of WASD controls, specifically how they work in FPS. However, because we have a tilted isometric camera, it just won't be very functional and Blizzard wont do something just to do it. Thus the argument is moot. It won't change. Plus I wasn't saying you haven't played the game I was referring to the thread's creator. The reason being the vast majority of these types of threads are created by noobs to the Diablo franchise.
Perhaps blizzard will make xbox or PS3 controllers supported for Diablo 3 and allow you to play with one of those instead of the keyboard+mouse combo if you choose. I would actually prefer using a joystick to move over clicking, but then I wonder how you would open doors and pick up items.
For people asking for controller support: I have serious doubts that you have ever played a Diablo game. A controller would work horribly, very bad to accurately aim (why do you think consoles use aim-assist in FPS's?).
I was just testing this some more on a caster (again in Mythos) and I found it REALLY nice to be able to move away from the mobs while keeping my focus on them and spamming fireballs. The character stops during the cast, but it's still nice not to have to move the mouse across the screen to click where I want the character to run then move back to target the mob. The mob is always targeted no matter the direction I move. It's really puzzling how anyone could argue with this system, especially if was added an an option to the controls.
This is exactly why this game can't go WASD. Choosing to either move or attack is a strategic choice the game forces you to make; if you can move AND attack, that's one less thing you have to think about. You might see that as a good thing, but I think it makes the game shallower.
You also failed to read the part where I mentioned my character stops every time he has to cast a spell. There was no movement during casting, the only difference between using WASD and using the mouse the entire time is I didn't have to move my mouse across the entire screen back and forth to do a simple move in the opposite direction from the mob. So what you're saying is completely obvious, allowing to move and cast at the same time would turn Diablo 3 into Smash TV, I fully realize that and this has already been though of by the ex-Diablo 2 developers who created Mythos.
I'll give you that I used the wrong word, it is Moot. But the second definition of Moot is: oflittleorno practical value or meaning;purelyacademic. So yes, it does mean what I think it means. They are not going to change it so the discussion is moot, or pointless.
Granted. But why is it pointless? Just because a feature doesn't exist doesn't mean it can't exist in the future. They have already talked about making the game for consoles which would use a similar control scheme and community feedback and requests have made blizzard consider changes before. Hardly makes discussing it pointless.
If you don't like the conversation, don't contribute or don't bother reading it. No one is forcing you to read it or like it.
The fact that it would work well on consoles has NOTHING to do with if it would feel good as WASD. Console joysticks have more then a 4 direction range of movement making it feel more fluid. That doesnt mean that limiting it to combinations of 4 direction buttons would feel as good.
you know what, let it be sub-optimal and let it break in combat so we can't run and gun. If for the sole purpose that I don't have to click to go around town all the time or to the next through a large area I just cleared while giving my mouse hand a rest is great.
If there is one thing Blizzard is known for is actually implementing small changes to their interface (in this case it would be movement) if it just improves Quality of Life in the game. I don't see this entering at launch nor do I think it should be a completely viable alternative as maka has brought up the biggest point on why wsda and combat should be separated (and it wasnt wah wah thats how it is). Lets face it this game can and has changed on us quickly (cough weapon %, RUNES, etc...) that we cant say this is what the devs say is sacred and will never change.
A lot of these topic come up but i think this is the first i've read that doesn't ask for equivalent control via wsda but just an option. Heck even if its just to take 3 steps forward while picking up all the junk that drops would be great.
Also to the topic of "feel as good". That is entirely subjective. I personally hate controller set ups and like the mouse in this game but I am not close-minded enough to say that it doesn't have its merits.
you know what, let it be sub-optimal and let it break in combat so we can't run and gun. If for the sole purpose that I don't have to click to go around town all the time or to the next through a large area I just cleared while giving my mouse hand a rest is great.
The reason why the devs did not put it in. They did not want an inferior mechanic in the game and in this case wasd is inferior. In Diablo, one wrong move can kill you.
I read the first page and cringed at the responses, I feel sorry OP; you actually asked the question very elegantly and just got the usual hissy-fit responses (from both sides).
I think the problem is the same as ever, people don't like change. It's that simple to be honest. If something isn't broke, don't fix it etc. It's that logic that carries over.
With the examples given on the front page (such as slavery) there was clearly something broken about the method, that's why changes were needed to be made; but people feel (rightly or wrongly) that Diablo controls a certain way and should remain as such.
The other thing is that no matter how hard you try, one method will always offer an advantage over the other, an example being look at WoW. The best players used hotkeys and clicked skills at the same time. Those that only did one or the other were generally a bit behind those that did both (be it a couple of 100 or a couple of 1000); so I think people wouldn't like to feel like they are worse off because they are stuck in a traditional control mindset.
Where as a newer player is able to utilize the new method and be more effective for it (such as aiming and moving as you stated). Again, I am not saying this is a good reason, but it is probably one of the main reasons why people react so badly toward the suggestion.
Rep to you, well stated.
I think the problem is that Diablo Fans are all very passionate about their game, I know I am. When people are passionate about something, then you get strong emotions regarding changes to what people feel is the "essence" of the game. I think this is why every change Blizzard has made has been met with large amounts of both praise and criticism. Thankfully, everyone seems to feel mostly favorable about where the game is going.
I read the first page and cringed at the responses, I feel sorry OP; you actually asked the question very elegantly and just got the usual hissy-fit responses (from both sides).
I think the problem is the same as ever, people don't like change. It's that simple to be honest. If something isn't broke, don't fix it etc. It's that logic that carries over.
With the examples given on the front page (such as slavery) there was clearly something broken about the method, that's why changes were needed to be made; but people feel (rightly or wrongly) that Diablo controls a certain way and should remain as such.
The other thing is that no matter how hard you try, one method will always offer an advantage over the other, an example being look at WoW. The best players used hotkeys and clicked skills at the same time. Those that only did one or the other were generally a bit behind those that did both (be it a couple of 100 or a couple of 1000); so I think people wouldn't like to feel like they are worse off because they are stuck in a traditional control mindset.
Where as a newer player is able to utilize the new method and be more effective for it (such as aiming and moving as you stated). Again, I am not saying this is a good reason, but it is probably one of the main reasons why people react so badly toward the suggestion.
Rep to you, well stated.
I think the problem is that Diablo Fans are all very passionate about their game, I know I am. When people are passionate about something, then you get strong emotions regarding changes to what people feel is the "essence" of the game. I think this is why every change Blizzard has made has been met with large amounts of both praise and criticism. Thankfully, everyone seems to feel mostly favorable about where the game is going.
I've stated before that letting people use WSAD would give us an edge which would make a game more simple. Avoidance of mobs' spells would be much more easy with that. They would have to rebalance everything and change mobs AI. It won't happen. On consoles you may be able to have it but you will loose possibility to aim as well as with mouse so cons and pros will probably balance itself. And anyway console version may be easier to play than PC one as it is for consoles and it would be nothing wrong with it being more easy there.
The other thing is that no matter how hard you try, one method will always offer an advantage over the other, an example being look at WoW. The best players used hotkeys and clicked skills at the same time. Those that only did one or the other were generally a bit behind those that did both (be it a couple of 100 or a couple of 1000); so I think people wouldn't like to feel like they are worse off because they are stuck in a traditional control mindset.
Where as a newer player is able to utilize the new method and be more effective for it (such as aiming and moving as you stated). Again, I am not saying this is a good reason, but it is probably one of the main reasons why people react so badly toward the suggestion.
I agree with that, so I'm just going to hope it might be a feature they push out much later as an update or part of the next expansion. People who said it will never happen simply don't have any grounds to say so. Just look at how much the Beta has changed, absolutely massive changes that go against everything they said last year (rune system, inferno flat difficulty of every mob level 61, etc). Adding some movement hot keys, especially since they have to migrate towards this for the consoles anyway is not a huge change to the gameplay.
I really dont understand the arguments about your mouse hand getting tired. Like the previous poster said, learn to drag the mouse and not click. And when you attack dont individually click each enemy, hold shift and click once then aim. Not really that hard...
Zanmato, this is where you maybe should have read through the posts
The OP made the point that WSAD movement would only be used out of combat and that mouse-movement would be the only way to move in-combat. Making you make a choice between movement and attack.
The problem with that, is that Diablo games don't have out of combat. It's the main reason they were messing around with the skill locking mechanic. The devs have said at Blizzcon 2010 and 2011, that if WASD was as solid of a mechanic as the mouse, it would have been in the game.
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I don't think it is less clicking. But anyway, it would give us too big of an edge to be able to move like that. It would be quite easy to run and shot at the same time. But if you couldn't run and shot at the same time like it is now (except strafe) then I honestly don't see the point of having WSAD at all. In console version when/if it is released you will probably be able to do both shoot and run as otherwise it will be to awkward for console players. But possibly they won't be able to select any mobs but only ones first in line, kinda like in FPS games. I would like to see what they have in mind for consoles.
I'll give you that I used the wrong word, it is Moot. But the second definition of Moot is: of little or no practical value or meaning; purely academic. So yes, it does mean what I think it means. They are not going to change it so the discussion is moot, or pointless.
Granted. But why is it pointless? Just because a feature doesn't exist doesn't mean it can't exist in the future. They have already talked about making the game for consoles which would use a similar control scheme and community feedback and requests have made blizzard consider changes before. Hardly makes discussing it pointless.
If you don't like the conversation, don't contribute or don't bother reading it. No one is forcing you to read it or like it.
He was clearly attempting to use the second definition - of little or no practical value or meaning
Aka the discussion of whether or not WASD movement works well with Diablo is moot because they are not going to impliment it for a variety of logistical reasons.
Yes, I've gotten that and that point is withdrawn, the first and last points still stand
Creating a game for consoles and changing the way it works on PC is two different things. Plus they WONT change it. Diablo, since its inception has been navigated with the mouse. This is due to many reasons, but that is how the game is. Change it and you fundamentally change the game. Which is why the WONT change it. These topics generaaly gome from people who have not really played the game very much and just like to complain because the game isn't what they are used to. Why should it be changed to please a small minority within the community when it works completely well the way it is? One suggestion was to make it an option, which wont work well with an isometric camera, even if it wasn't perfect. Blizzard wont do this either because it goes against their design philsophy. So yes, the thread is moot.
You could take that same argument about the skill trees and those got changed. I've played lots of Diablo and I've played other games that use a similar style camera with WSAD movement, it's just a matter of personal preference. I've already said I don't mind either way, clicking is how I played D2 and expect to play D3, but if people want to talk about the pros and cons of using a different control scheme, they should be able to.
The argument of "it's always been that way" is a horrible counterpoint. Just because something has "always been" doesn't mean it has to stay. To this I again reference skills trees, but I also reference weapon damage percentages. Casters used to always be based off flat damage with +skill enhancing them. Now it's all weapon based. Both are very fundamental changes to the original "core" of Diablo 2 and have been changed.
If you think it's pointless based solely on the fact that you don't like it, that's fine, that's a valid argument. Personal taste makes a difference in things like this because game design and art are a subjective. The argument of "it's always been that way" leads to stagnation and and Blizzard is always looking for ways to improve. Especially considering that the request is supplemental, people want it as an alternative not as a replacement.
Just to be perfectly clear, I am happy either way, I like the game play as is. I just feel that a Devil's Advocate is warranted here. Besides, I wouldn't mind having it either.
My counterpoint isn't that it should stay that way just because it's always been that way. It's always been that way becaus that is how Blizzard wants it. Because that is how Blizzard wants it, it WILL stay that way. Plus I am a big fan of WASD controls, specifically how they work in FPS. However, because we have a tilted isometric camera, it just won't be very functional and Blizzard wont do something just to do it. Thus the argument is moot. It won't change. Plus I wasn't saying you haven't played the game I was referring to the thread's creator. The reason being the vast majority of these types of threads are created by noobs to the Diablo franchise.
You also failed to read the part where I mentioned my character stops every time he has to cast a spell. There was no movement during casting, the only difference between using WASD and using the mouse the entire time is I didn't have to move my mouse across the entire screen back and forth to do a simple move in the opposite direction from the mob. So what you're saying is completely obvious, allowing to move and cast at the same time would turn Diablo 3 into Smash TV, I fully realize that and this has already been though of by the ex-Diablo 2 developers who created Mythos.
The fact that it would work well on consoles has NOTHING to do with if it would feel good as WASD. Console joysticks have more then a 4 direction range of movement making it feel more fluid. That doesnt mean that limiting it to combinations of 4 direction buttons would feel as good.
If there is one thing Blizzard is known for is actually implementing small changes to their interface (in this case it would be movement) if it just improves Quality of Life in the game. I don't see this entering at launch nor do I think it should be a completely viable alternative as maka has brought up the biggest point on why wsda and combat should be separated (and it wasnt wah wah thats how it is). Lets face it this game can and has changed on us quickly (cough weapon %, RUNES, etc...) that we cant say this is what the devs say is sacred and will never change.
A lot of these topic come up but i think this is the first i've read that doesn't ask for equivalent control via wsda but just an option. Heck even if its just to take 3 steps forward while picking up all the junk that drops would be great.
Also to the topic of "feel as good". That is entirely subjective. I personally hate controller set ups and like the mouse in this game but I am not close-minded enough to say that it doesn't have its merits.
The reason why the devs did not put it in. They did not want an inferior mechanic in the game and in this case wasd is inferior. In Diablo, one wrong move can kill you.
Rep to you, well stated.
I think the problem is that Diablo Fans are all very passionate about their game, I know I am. When people are passionate about something, then you get strong emotions regarding changes to what people feel is the "essence" of the game. I think this is why every change Blizzard has made has been met with large amounts of both praise and criticism. Thankfully, everyone seems to feel mostly favorable about where the game is going.
I've stated before that letting people use WSAD would give us an edge which would make a game more simple. Avoidance of mobs' spells would be much more easy with that. They would have to rebalance everything and change mobs AI. It won't happen. On consoles you may be able to have it but you will loose possibility to aim as well as with mouse so cons and pros will probably balance itself. And anyway console version may be easier to play than PC one as it is for consoles and it would be nothing wrong with it being more easy there.
I agree with that, so I'm just going to hope it might be a feature they push out much later as an update or part of the next expansion. People who said it will never happen simply don't have any grounds to say so. Just look at how much the Beta has changed, absolutely massive changes that go against everything they said last year (rune system, inferno flat difficulty of every mob level 61, etc). Adding some movement hot keys, especially since they have to migrate towards this for the consoles anyway is not a huge change to the gameplay.
The problem with that, is that Diablo games don't have out of combat. It's the main reason they were messing around with the skill locking mechanic. The devs have said at Blizzcon 2010 and 2011, that if WASD was as solid of a mechanic as the mouse, it would have been in the game.