I personally don't really mind that much, because I'm focused more on the finished product and knowing Blizzard, that will be yet another super polished jewel that we will all love very much. I'd love to be in the beta though, but my priority really is the product on release.
Besides, Skyrim is out soon ish and that will keep me busy until D3 release.
I really don't agree with the notiion that Blizzard games when released are "super polished" or "perfect". They do a good job of putting out a quality product, but they also release a lot of patches post release. Are we playing the same games? Anyone remember playing D2 the first few months?
It's not going to matter, the crap all the fans are whining about right now isn't going to affect D3 sales in the slightest, it'll sell millions of copies and everyone will love it. They just don't have it now so they need to complain.
I can try really hard to disagree, but I know you're right.
The fact that he's right is why Blizzard doesn't give a shit. People are still going to buy the game regardless of how they treat the consumer base. Hell, I'm still going to buy the game regardless of how badly I feel I've been treated as a consumer. But they'll need to blow my socks off with this product if they want any chance of keeping me around for a long time.
And how exactly have you been treated badly as a consumer? Because you didn't get into the beta? Because the beta you got into that cost you nothing only came with an hour of content? Because Blizzard isn't going to release the game this year?
I'd REALLY love to know Blizzard has actually treated you badly as a consumer...
The fact that he's right is why Blizzard doesn't give a shit. People are still going to buy the game regardless of how they treat the consumer base. Hell, I'm still going to buy the game regardless of how badly I feel I've been treated as a consumer. But they'll need to blow my socks off with this product if they want any chance of keeping me around for a long time.
[/quote]
I've been waiting 10 years to get my hands on this game and to have it dangled in my face like a piece of meat makes me feel disgusted. And with someone like Bashiok at the helm of communication doesn't make the lack of access or information any easier to deal. His constant "we're better than you" attitude just makes me feel like punching someone in the face.
As like you have mentioned, I will still buy the game. No longer out of pure anticipation, but rather out of a "I should still at least try it out", kinda thing. Much like I've done with the last COD Black-Ops release. And unless they blow my socks off immediately after release, I don't see my self playing the game for very long.
Your post is dripping with entitlement. For starters, I've never felt that Bashiok's post are ones of smugness or arrogance. He keeps it light, and I always see it as him trying to build camaraderie with the posters. You need to realize that the meanings of some things are entirely based on how you read it.
Next, I don't understand your reaction to not being able to play the beta. Let me ask you this. If there was a million users in beta, and you didn't get in, would you still react with the same disgusted feeling? The problem is that you feel as if you deserve a spot, or at least that Blizzard is doing some great punitive disservice to their fans. It's their beta. They can put in however many users they want, whether its 50 or 500. It is an incorrect notion to believe that the players have the control or are owed anything as Blizzard tries to develop the game that they have invested money and resources into for the last several years. Honestly, it is this entitlement that makes these arguments irritating to read and redundant to see on the forums. I am not of course attacking the main idea of the thread, as I think it's fair to evaluate Blizzard's timing.
I'd REALLY love to know Blizzard has actually treated you badly as a consumer...
You read into the statement too much. I was simply trying to state that regardless of how I was or am treated as consumer, I am still going to buy the game.
As for the way I've been treated as a consumer? Well, I'm not going to get into specifics. But I've played countless hours of The Lost Vikings, Starcraft, SC2, Diablo, Diablo2, Warcraft and World of Warcraft, so trust me, there has been a point or two in the past two decades where I've felt wronged.
And regardless, I still enjoy their products and will still go out a day or two after it's released to purchase my copy of the game.
Next, I don't understand your reaction to not being able to play the beta. Let me ask you this. If there was a million users in beta, and you didn't get in, would you still react with the same disgusted feeling? The problem is that you feel as if you deserve a spot, or at least that Blizzard is doing some great punitive disservice to their fans. It's their beta. They can put in however many users they want, whether its 50 or 500. It is an incorrect notion to believe that the players have the control or are owed anything as Blizzard tries to develop the game that they have invested money and resources into for the last several years.
Sure, I understand that it is their game and that they may do with it as they please. What I don't agree with is how they're going about it.
Doing things like creating contest's based on pure randomness for access into the beta is, in my opinion, completely unfair to those who have been loyal consumers since the release of The Lost Vikings. Is it fair that a person who just randomly came across the Diablo franchise yesterday, should have the same opportunity to get into the beta as a loyal longtime consumer? IMO, no.
It feels as though I'm being treated like an animal and they're waving a treat in my face saying "want it? cant have it! want it? cant have it!" in an attempt to create product hype.
I personally don't really mind that much, because I'm focused more on the finished product and knowing Blizzard, that will be yet another super polished jewel that we will all love very much. I'd love to be in the beta though, but my priority really is the product on release.
Besides, Skyrim is out soon ish and that will keep me busy until D3 release.
I really don't agree with the notiion that Blizzard games when released are "super polished" or "perfect". They do a good job of putting out a quality product, but they also release a lot of patches post release. Are we playing the same games? Anyone remember playing D2 the first few months?
Yeah, I had no internet until veeeery late. Everyone had it before me. I remember not even know anything about the expansion. But when that piece of installment hit the game. Man it was awesome! Runes and more stuff, and monsters I never seen before.
It was far from perfect, but as long patches can save a game (or program; Windows, almost) I believe Blizzard wont take more time then needed just to have it "done" for sale.
I am a fan, however after this statement I defined the fan idiocy. Those who fall into the below categories (ie the author of the linked article) I consider dumb (which isn’t a category I fall into)
DarkPhenomenon said:
They create their own expectations, schedules and hype despite Blizzard telling us exactly what they are doing and that the expectations fans create ourselves are wrong.
Wrong, expectations were build upon Blizzard's press releases and hype.
What exact expectations? Blizzard press releases announced things like the Beta and the existence of D3. The only expectations those announcements created were for the release of said Beta and the eventual release of Diablo 3. You’re going to have to be a lot more specific if you expect to actually debate this and hold your ground. I’ve already given specific examples and all you can do is tell me I’m wrong without actually explaining why.
DarkPhenomenon said:
Then Blizzard fails to meet the expectations the fans created (the ones Blizzard said they would never meet in the first place) and then the fans bitch at Blizzard for it (ie this linked article).
Blizzard failed their own forecast and expectations so fans have the right to bitch as much as they want as a result.
Forecast? What forecast? EVERY TIME a release date question has come up, it’s ALWAYS been “It’ll be out when it’s done” THAT is their forcast and it’s never changed. Yes, they’ve constantly said they are *trying* to get it out this year. They wanted to get it out in 2011 but have ALWAYS had the caveat that they don’t know if that’s doable. At least they told us 3 months before the end of the year instead of at the end of the year. And, by the way, another expectation a large chunk of the community set for themselves was Christmas 2011. Now that they’ve been proven wrong, (something I’ve known was going to happen for a long time http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=27797299614&sid=3000), they are upset about it.
A VERY large tip-off that the community should have picked up on (but didn’t because they are blind to everything else while clinging to any shred of indication that D3 will be out sooner than later), was that ActivisionBlizzard EXCLUDED Diablo 3 from their fiscal forecasts. If the company that OWNS Blizzard isn’t banking on D3 coming out this year, it’s a pretty good sign D3 isn’t coming out this year.
DarkPhenomenon said:
Blizzard has been saying for a long time now
Beta is for network and compatibility testing
They have ALWAYS been saying they don't know if it will come out this year
They told us a long ass time ago that the Beta would last about 6 months.
I think you didn't read the Diablo 3 Beta FAQ:
What are your goals for this beta?
The primary reason for the Diablo III beta test is for us to test out our new hardware, see how the server–client infrastructure holds up, and look for bugs in the installer and patcher as well as the game. We’re also looking to get some quality feedback about the beginning game experience and how the different classes feel. The beta test will help us ensure that the release is stable and fun, and that we’re ultimately able to deliver the experience we intend with Diablo III.
So? All’s this proves is what I said was right. Sure, add bug finding to the list (although it’s not the Beta’s primary purpose which I’m about to prove). Here, let me throw in a few more Blizzard Beta quotes in regards to the Beta Expectation Blizzard was trying to set..
We're preparing ourselves for an extremely limited, and extremely rough beta. The number of people let in will simply be dependent on concurrency of active players (we want to keep it full), and rough because we expect many issues as we're trying out a lot of new hardware and systems all at the same time. We'll get it ironed out before release of course, but while most of our other game tests have been of seemingly releasable products, we're preparing for this one to be a true beta.
We're testing client and server stability. We want to make sure the game is running, and running well, on a wide range of systems, and the server infrastructure that runs Diablo III is completely new, so we need testing on that front as well. Quite right, we're not necessarily looking for gameplay related testing, although we do hope to see feedback on the various systems and see what people like/don't like from the first few hours of play time.
Oh, what’s that say in bold? I can’t quite read it…
Because we're starting with essentially a 'single' server to test the system out, and so it's necessary to keep it full, but not overflowing. To do that we carefully monitor concurrency and then hand out extra keys when/if it dips.
To clarify further, there's no universal "bnet2" server blade and we just install different games on it. The service Diablo III will run on is completely untested, which is the top reason for the beta, followed closely by personal system testing, patching systems (also new), and gameplay feedback.
We have a huge and talented QA department just for purposes like these, yes, but it's still no comparison to thousands and thousands of players hammering the system. We can run simulations to see what breaks just from over-crowding, but it's ultimately no comparison to real players testing the system.
But we also do want player feedback on systems and how the game feels and plays for the content that's available. The first few hours are the most crucial for any game, so we definitely want to make sure we get them right.
This will be the most limited beta in recent memory, and because of of how new the back end is, we expect it to be the most unstable as well.
I don’t know about you, but the communication from Blizzard seems pretty damn clear and consistent about the purpose and expectation of the Beta test, (and if you’ve been around this site for a while I can guarantee you Diablofans has reported all of the above information). And lastly, here’s a nice little snippet of Blizzard nipping incorrect expectations of the 1,000,000 facebook likes in the bud (Which also angered people, go figure)
Nah. We have something cool lined up, but it's along the lines of the visuals we've released so far. Nothing earth shattering, but something cool to celebrate the milestone.
DarkPhenomenon said:
Quite frankly the Diablo community in general is a whiney, bitchy,self-entitled mass of children.
Are you part of the community ?
I am, but I’m not whining to Blizzard, nor do I think I’m entitled to a D3 this year nor a Beta invite (you know, all the stuff I already talked about?)
To answer the initial question: YES. Blizzard is getting it wrong, from the beta release on the SWTOR week-end beta announcement to the delay to 2012.
It’s not a delay, the release date is, and has always been… When it’s done. It’s not gunna be done in 2011 so it’s not coming out in 2011. All’s they announced is a date they can’t make, a date they have told everyone many times they weren’t even sure if they could make in the first place.
How exactly did they get the Beta release wrong? I’m looking for specific examples you can defend (And that I can respond to).
Sorry, my good gentleman. I thought it was fairly self-explanatory that any post posted directly after another's is assumed to respond to that person, unless stated otherwise. Or at least that's how things have operated around here for years
Perhaps this is more about what they didn't do than what they did do. (As you mentioned, the lack of updates.)
Touché! I am so used to being quoted when I'm addressed, the idea didn't even cross my mind (talk about spoiled!).
I'm glad you figured it out. You just said "do everything the way they have" and I couldn't find anything in your post explaining what, exactly, it is that you thought they did. You mention how fans feel, but did not elaborate on any action on Blizzard's part.
This is the end of the year. We've only got two months left. It's the last quarter.
Perhaps they should have put an NDA on it. Perhaps they should have put it off. But if they put an NDA on it, it would have been raped up the ass after a week or two. Look at how the Chinese continually violate NDA's and all kinds of other laws like they're eating candy. And, of course, people would want to turn a traffic profit on it, so it would be all over YouTube in days, all over the rest of the web in a short enough order.
And guess how fans would feel then, knowing that they didn't even get to learn anything about the beta, didn't even get to participate? Think of how silent these weeks would have been without anything having to do with the beta. Just delete, mentally, basically every post we've made on the front page for the last month. All the new content in the wiki. The contests, the beta coverage. Many of Force's videos.
I think they would have felt equally angry, if not moreso.
Perhaps this is more about what they didn't do than what they did do. (As you mentioned, the lack of updates.)
Cookie for me I do have a bad habbit of getting stuck in my own little world and rambling on.
I'll preface by saying that do appreciate DFans and what they do; However, most of the info on the site (at least reguarding Beta gameplay) I have already known about/seen from F&F postings and leaks around the web. An NDA may not have been the best solution here (it's obvious I'm not into marketing) but I certainly feel Blizzard missed something, somewhere, with reguards to how the beta was handled. Of course, I wouldn't have minded not seeing any of the beta info (am I a minority?). In fact the ONLY reason I started looking for info on Diablo 3 again was because I heard the beta was starting.
I believe you said it yourself earlier in the thread, you come up with a solution you think would be perfect only to find that it creates it's own problems.
On the other hand, maybe the (most vocal) Diablo community IS just a bunch of unsatisfiable, I-want-it-now people. I know I will get solice from the fact that I have [insert name of game that comes out before Diablo 3] to tide me over whether or not I get into the beta.
A TRUE Beta ..."the expectations" based on prior Blizzard betas were that we will have a SCII/WoW like beta. They didn't have TRUE betas for WoW and SCII ?
Yo, can you link me the definition for "TRUE Beta"? I guess I've totally had it wrong this entire time!
Their investor meetings and other blue posts and such said that they will try for a 2011 release
You know what else we knew from those investor meetings? ActiviisionBlizzard was never counting on or expecting a 2011 release date for Diablo 3, but what the hell do the their executives know....
I think that's great that members are so passionate about their opinions and I've seen some really well thought out posts which makes for great weekend reading I don't have anything profound to add to this thread and can only say I think what all of this boils down to are the differences in how each of us processes a culmination of certain aspects (our feelings, opinions, and expectations.) I think it should be self-evident by this point that two people can read the exact same thing and come away from it with two completely separate viewpoints. What that should tell us is that any one of us could quote blue posts/fiscal forecasts/press releases, etc. until we are figuratively blue in the face so to speak and none of that will guarantee that we see eye to eye on this subject.
Without going into some long dissertation on expectations (how they are formed, what constitutes them being met or not, whose responsibility if any is it to manage them, etc.) I believe most of us can at least agree on the fact that we aren't going to agree lol. From my perspective, I don't think Blizzard got the beta wrong. What I have taken away from the info I've read is that they are looking to achieve specific goals with this beta and only they can know if what they are attempting is successful or not. For my part, I've kept my expectations in check. I opted in for the beta without counting on getting in. I've signed up for the facebook contest (even though I can't stand facebook lol) without counting on getting in, and I'll start contributing to the caption contest, again, without counting on winning.
I know that my interest/excitement will go up and down between now and release depending on what's going on information wise and I have to think that it's the same for the rest of you (at least to some degree.) I'm still excited for the game, I understand that we've only seen a very small portion of the game and that lots of great and undiscovered stuff awaits us with the release and it will be interesting to see how our "opinions" of the game change (if in fact they do) when we finally get to battle the hordes of hell from start to "finish". Just my ¢.02
Bunch of Blue posts with explanations and excuses.
A TRUE Beta ..."the expectations" based on prior Blizzard betas were that we will have a SCII/WoW like beta. They didn't have TRUE betas for WoW and SCII ?
A true Beta fixes bugs. If you don't test stuff how you fix bugs ?
Experience says Blizzard's Q&A department sucks ! Instead they went back to a 10 years ago model.
If I get to agree of this kind of Beta I don't get to agree of the delay to 2012.
To answer the initial question: YES. Blizzard is getting it wrong, from the beta release on the SWTOR week-end beta announcement to the delay to 2012.
It’s not a delay, the release date is, and has always been… When it’s done. It’s not gunna be done in 2011 so it’s not coming out in 2011. All’s they announced is a date they can’t make, a date they have told everyone many times they weren’t even sure if they could make in the first place.
How exactly did they get the Beta release wrong? I’m looking for specific examples you can defend (And that I can respond to).
And yes it's a delay. Their investor meetings and other blue posts and such said that they will try for a 2011 release. Yes, TRY not quaranteed, but to me going for 2012 after 10 years means just THEY DIDN'T TRIED ENOUGH !
Beta is Beta. Betas do come in different forms based on need. Blizzard has a team that is doing internal beta with likely updates made on a daily basis to test different aspects of the game. It is faster for them to do this since it is much easier to discuss and to fix issues. The closed beta is designed to test varying hardware, test server connections and other aspects of multiplayer (auction house), and also to add feedback on the feel of game or any other issues or problems faced. The later part are likely known and are being worked on based on how server the issue is. Some of the bugs that are seen in the beta are very minor. The thing is it would have been better if there was NDA on the closed beta at least until much later in the beta.
It has not been 10 years in development. It likely has been around 6 years. Still that is a long time but the process that Blizzard uses takes a long time since they do like to try different things to try to make the game the best it can be in the end. I really do think they tried really hard to make the game be available for 2011 since they did release the beta with NDA but likely the internal testers found some major issues and caused the team to look closer at trying to fix the issue. Sometimes with fixing an issue sometimes more issues pop up and they could be even worse than the one they are fixing.
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On Strike and supporting Fallout 4 Mod Makers
Some fallout 4 mod makers have had their mods stolen and uploaded and downloaded on Bethesda's site for the Xbox One.
A TRUE Beta ..."the expectations" based on prior Blizzard betas were that we will have a SCII/WoW like beta. They didn't have TRUE betas for WoW and SCII ?
Yo, can you link me the definition for "TRUE Beta"?
I could ask Bashiok the same thing.
Lol that moron couldn't answer that, Isn't it his fault this "demo" is called a beta in the first place(he announces pretty much everything to the communty first, was he the first to mention the so called beta was coming soon too), clearly he thinks this is what a beta is sigh.
If you asked him, he would probally say "It's a beta, because It's prier to release" (Meaning he thinks everthing that Isn't the released product, is beta).
In my humble opinion, Blizzard is making a smart decision with the "general" closed Beta testing many people have been involved with. This is of course separate from the internal closed beta they have been doing on the rest of the game outside of the first few hours of gameplay.
The key to a modern successful launch is in the first few hours of gameplay. There have been numerous changes to game systems (skills, resources for each class, etc) and these facets need to be balanced across early content in a focused manner, which is what the beta is doing well. Once these systems stabilize, which seems about to change given the utilization of weapon damage across (all?) skills, I would expect beta to open up to the rest of Act 1 to allow more advancement in terms of levels and content.
He keeps it light, and I always see it as him trying to build camaraderie with the posters. You need to realize that the meanings of some things are entirely based on how you read it.
My problem isn't even with how Bashiok does his job. It's that I don't understand why this job exists. But then again I'm just thinking of other more efficient game developers who deliver great titles in far less than 11 years apart. Many developers but Blizzard know how to shut up and just make their game.
I've been reading in this thread how so many fans here have a misplaced sense of entitlement? Well, if Blizzard feels it's so misplaced, why do they constantly engage with the community and try to defend every little thing they're doing? If they're so confident as developers and marketers, why is Bashiok always out there responding to so many people's complaints and concerns? Sure, he does it well sometimes. But why is he doing it at all? If the fans are so petty and so self-deserving, why is Blizzard always giving them a voice? Maybe because Blizzard thinks they're far less so than some of you here?
It feels as though I'm being treated like an animal and they're waving a treat in my face saying "want it? cant have it! want it? cant have it!" in an attempt to create product hype.
To me, it's not even that way with just the beta. To be honest I seriously don't even care about the beta. What bugs me is how there are all these news stories about how they're like, changing the Demon Hunter resource system, or they're changing the way dyes work, or they're scrapping some other system and replacing it with another. So just do it already. Why do I even know about that stuff? What I care about is the end product of those decisions. Is it really normal for developers to inform you so frequently about changes being made to their game? This does nothing to increase hype. All it really does is make you think, okay, so they're changing something again. I guess this is going to push things back even further.
Another thing is, I get so sick and tired of people labeling others who have genuine concerns and complaints about the game. I mean, this IS a forum where we discuss such things isn't it? Where the hell are the moderators taking care of the trolls? Let's stop pretending to be in this lofty non-dumb fan category. People can complain about these things and it doesn't necessarily make them "whiney, bitchy,self-entitled mass of children."
This all reminds me of the whole art direction debate. Were there totally unfair accusations and criticisms being tossed around? Sure there were. But were there also some valid points being made against the art direction, not to be necessarily dismissed especially since Blizzard so frequently engages with their fans and seemingly wants to know what they think? Of course there were. But at the time, SO many bad things were being said about the game's art direction that the people with sensible criticisms were either being drowned out or lumped together with the angry extremists who really were just starting to sound crazy. And so a lot of valid things being said were easily ignored or dismissed.
To answer the original question, yes Blizzard has messed up with the beta. You aren't "stressing" the servers by only inviting a couple people.
But no, the hype is not dead for the game, just the beta. A lot of people were expecting to get in, and about .1% of them did.
1.) As Bashiok fucking directly stated: You don't invite 1MILLION people when you don't even know if your infrastructure can handle 100. You slowly ramp up so that you can learn the threshold that the server can handle before it bonks. You really don't understand that they are using a completely new archictecture do you?
2.) Anyone that actually assumed they would get in other than press... and then get angry about not getting in can fuck themselves. Diablo 3 isn't BF3... this isn't a pre-release... this is a literal fucking beta. We are lucky that they aren't keeping this a completely closed beta anyways.
Somebody woke up on the wrong side of their parents basement this morning. Yeah you start small. But does Blizzard not have 100 employees that can test the servers from home? I understand starting small, but they've barely invited any more. They let expectations for the beta get out of hand (yes partly the fans fault), what would it have taken for a blue post to say "Unfortunately due to the nature of this test, very few of you will be invited to this beta."
2000 betas going out in the next 4 weeks should be good, but you need to pump the brakes, bro.
I'm just thinking of other more efficient game developers who deliver great titles in far less than 11 years apart. Many developers but Blizzard know how to shut up and just make their game.
Can you name some of these "great titles," and developers in question here? I agree with your critqiues, but I disagree any other studio has generated a blizzard-quality PC title in the last few years. Come to think of it, I don't even like what blizzard has done lately.
I'm just thinking of other more efficient game developers who deliver great titles in far less than 11 years apart. Many developers but Blizzard know how to shut up and just make their game.
Can you name some of these "great titles," and developers in question here? I agree with your critqiues, but I disagree any other studio has generated a blizzard-quality PC title in the last few years. Come to think of it, I don't even like what blizzard has done lately.
Gravity, turbine(I forgot who originally created Atlantica Online, but who ever did make it, is by far a better developer), Stardock is pretty sweet too, to name just a few(I know there are plenty more), all of which are better PC game developers.
Blizzard hasn't been about developing quality titles in a long time, they are all about generating hype now(aka the title of the games are better then the games them selves, due to their ealier games being so good, and them puting less effort into their newer games).
Gravity, turbine(I forgot who originally created Atlantica Online, but who ever did make it, is by far a better developer), Stardock is pretty sweet too, to name just a few(I know there are plenty more), all of which are better PC game developers.
Blizzard hasn't been about developing quality titles in a long time, they are all about generating hype now(aka the title of the games are better then the games them selves, due to their ealier games being so good, and them puting less effort into their newer games).
I'll rephrase my point a bit. In the 5-10 years since, what I would term, the golden age of PC gaming I haven't made a single PC title purchase that I didn't feel buyer's remorse over. Personal experience has lead me to an indictment of the industry rathan than one developer or one company in general.
I've seen and taken part in some innovative and cute indy title betas, but the polish never seems to be applied. I've seen and purchased a few very promising main-stream titles from the giants and felt equal parts nostalgia and dissapointment. Where there was ample polish, there was not much innovation, and where there was innovation; it was hap-hazard.
In the genre's i've traditionally cared about (rpg, mmorpg, rts, tbs, and action variants) things look grim all around. I'm not saying that nothing good is out there, but I really don't agree that Blizzard has fallen under par. I think the whole industry has slipped far down the well and the glorious era of masterful and innovative gaming likely popped with the tech bubble.
I'll rephrase my point a bit. In the 5-10 years since, what I would term, the golden age of PC gaming I haven't made a single PC title purchase that I didn't feel buyer's remorse over. Personal experience has lead me to an indictment of the industry rathan than one developer or one company in general.
I've seen and taken part in some innovative and cute indy title betas, but the polish never seems to be applied. I've seen and purchased a few very promising main-stream titles from the giants and felt equal parts nostalgia and dissapointment. Where there was ample polish, there was not much innovation, and where there was innovation; it was hap-hazard.
In the genre's i've traditionally cared about (rpg, mmorpg, rts, tbs, and action variants) things look grim all around. I'm not saying that nothing good is out there, but I really don't agree that Blizzard has fallen under par. I think the whole industry has slipped far down the well and the glorious era of masterful and innovative gaming likely popped with the tech bubble.
Buy Bastion.
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I really don't agree with the notiion that Blizzard games when released are "super polished" or "perfect". They do a good job of putting out a quality product, but they also release a lot of patches post release. Are we playing the same games? Anyone remember playing D2 the first few months?
The fact that he's right is why Blizzard doesn't give a shit. People are still going to buy the game regardless of how they treat the consumer base. Hell, I'm still going to buy the game regardless of how badly I feel I've been treated as a consumer. But they'll need to blow my socks off with this product if they want any chance of keeping me around for a long time.
And how exactly have you been treated badly as a consumer? Because you didn't get into the beta? Because the beta you got into that cost you nothing only came with an hour of content? Because Blizzard isn't going to release the game this year?
I'd REALLY love to know Blizzard has actually treated you badly as a consumer...
[/quote]
Totally agree this is where Im at. +1
Your post is dripping with entitlement. For starters, I've never felt that Bashiok's post are ones of smugness or arrogance. He keeps it light, and I always see it as him trying to build camaraderie with the posters. You need to realize that the meanings of some things are entirely based on how you read it.
Next, I don't understand your reaction to not being able to play the beta. Let me ask you this. If there was a million users in beta, and you didn't get in, would you still react with the same disgusted feeling? The problem is that you feel as if you deserve a spot, or at least that Blizzard is doing some great punitive disservice to their fans. It's their beta. They can put in however many users they want, whether its 50 or 500. It is an incorrect notion to believe that the players have the control or are owed anything as Blizzard tries to develop the game that they have invested money and resources into for the last several years. Honestly, it is this entitlement that makes these arguments irritating to read and redundant to see on the forums. I am not of course attacking the main idea of the thread, as I think it's fair to evaluate Blizzard's timing.
As for the way I've been treated as a consumer? Well, I'm not going to get into specifics. But I've played countless hours of The Lost Vikings, Starcraft, SC2, Diablo, Diablo2, Warcraft and World of Warcraft, so trust me, there has been a point or two in the past two decades where I've felt wronged.
And regardless, I still enjoy their products and will still go out a day or two after it's released to purchase my copy of the game.
The pot calling the kettle black.
Sure, I understand that it is their game and that they may do with it as they please. What I don't agree with is how they're going about it.
Doing things like creating contest's based on pure randomness for access into the beta is, in my opinion, completely unfair to those who have been loyal consumers since the release of The Lost Vikings. Is it fair that a person who just randomly came across the Diablo franchise yesterday, should have the same opportunity to get into the beta as a loyal longtime consumer? IMO, no.
It feels as though I'm being treated like an animal and they're waving a treat in my face saying "want it? cant have it! want it? cant have it!" in an attempt to create product hype.
Yeah, I had no internet until veeeery late. Everyone had it before me. I remember not even know anything about the expansion. But when that piece of installment hit the game. Man it was awesome! Runes and more stuff, and monsters I never seen before.
It was far from perfect, but as long patches can save a game (or program; Windows, almost) I believe Blizzard wont take more time then needed just to have it "done" for sale.
:: Enkeria [Twitter / Twitch / Website / Tattoos]
What exact expectations? Blizzard press releases announced things like the Beta and the existence of D3. The only expectations those announcements created were for the release of said Beta and the eventual release of Diablo 3. You’re going to have to be a lot more specific if you expect to actually debate this and hold your ground. I’ve already given specific examples and all you can do is tell me I’m wrong without actually explaining why.
Forecast? What forecast? EVERY TIME a release date question has come up, it’s ALWAYS been “It’ll be out when it’s done” THAT is their forcast and it’s never changed. Yes, they’ve constantly said they are *trying* to get it out this year. They wanted to get it out in 2011 but have ALWAYS had the caveat that they don’t know if that’s doable. At least they told us 3 months before the end of the year instead of at the end of the year. And, by the way, another expectation a large chunk of the community set for themselves was Christmas 2011. Now that they’ve been proven wrong, (something I’ve known was going to happen for a long time http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=27797299614&sid=3000), they are upset about it.
A VERY large tip-off that the community should have picked up on (but didn’t because they are blind to everything else while clinging to any shred of indication that D3 will be out sooner than later), was that ActivisionBlizzard EXCLUDED Diablo 3 from their fiscal forecasts. If the company that OWNS Blizzard isn’t banking on D3 coming out this year, it’s a pretty good sign D3 isn’t coming out this year.
So? All’s this proves is what I said was right. Sure, add bug finding to the list (although it’s not the Beta’s primary purpose which I’m about to prove). Here, let me throw in a few more Blizzard Beta quotes in regards to the Beta Expectation Blizzard was trying to set..
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=27822633369&postId=278201096253&sid=3000#6
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=27822632463&postId=278201086524&sid=3000#7
Oh, what’s that say in bold? I can’t quite read it…
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=27822632463&postId=278201086536&sid=3000#10
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=27822632463&postId=278201086592&sid=3000#24
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=27822632463&postId=278201086563&sid=3000#17
I don’t know about you, but the communication from Blizzard seems pretty damn clear and consistent about the purpose and expectation of the Beta test, (and if you’ve been around this site for a while I can guarantee you Diablofans has reported all of the above information). And lastly, here’s a nice little snippet of Blizzard nipping incorrect expectations of the 1,000,000 facebook likes in the bud (Which also angered people, go figure)
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=27807930529&postId=278054080629&sid=3000#7
I am, but I’m not whining to Blizzard, nor do I think I’m entitled to a D3 this year nor a Beta invite (you know, all the stuff I already talked about?)
It’s not a delay, the release date is, and has always been… When it’s done. It’s not gunna be done in 2011 so it’s not coming out in 2011. All’s they announced is a date they can’t make, a date they have told everyone many times they weren’t even sure if they could make in the first place.
How exactly did they get the Beta release wrong? I’m looking for specific examples you can defend (And that I can respond to).
Cookie for me I do have a bad habbit of getting stuck in my own little world and rambling on.
I'll preface by saying that do appreciate DFans and what they do; However, most of the info on the site (at least reguarding Beta gameplay) I have already known about/seen from F&F postings and leaks around the web. An NDA may not have been the best solution here (it's obvious I'm not into marketing) but I certainly feel Blizzard missed something, somewhere, with reguards to how the beta was handled. Of course, I wouldn't have minded not seeing any of the beta info (am I a minority?). In fact the ONLY reason I started looking for info on Diablo 3 again was because I heard the beta was starting.
I believe you said it yourself earlier in the thread, you come up with a solution you think would be perfect only to find that it creates it's own problems.
On the other hand, maybe the (most vocal) Diablo community IS just a bunch of unsatisfiable, I-want-it-now people. I know I will get solice from the fact that I have [insert name of game that comes out before Diablo 3] to tide me over whether or not I get into the beta.
Yo, can you link me the definition for "TRUE Beta"? I guess I've totally had it wrong this entire time!
You know what else we knew from those investor meetings? ActiviisionBlizzard was never counting on or expecting a 2011 release date for Diablo 3, but what the hell do the their executives know....
Without going into some long dissertation on expectations (how they are formed, what constitutes them being met or not, whose responsibility if any is it to manage them, etc.) I believe most of us can at least agree on the fact that we aren't going to agree lol. From my perspective, I don't think Blizzard got the beta wrong. What I have taken away from the info I've read is that they are looking to achieve specific goals with this beta and only they can know if what they are attempting is successful or not. For my part, I've kept my expectations in check. I opted in for the beta without counting on getting in. I've signed up for the facebook contest (even though I can't stand facebook lol) without counting on getting in, and I'll start contributing to the caption contest, again, without counting on winning.
I know that my interest/excitement will go up and down between now and release depending on what's going on information wise and I have to think that it's the same for the rest of you (at least to some degree.) I'm still excited for the game, I understand that we've only seen a very small portion of the game and that lots of great and undiscovered stuff awaits us with the release and it will be interesting to see how our "opinions" of the game change (if in fact they do) when we finally get to battle the hordes of hell from start to "finish". Just my ¢.02
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Beta is Beta. Betas do come in different forms based on need. Blizzard has a team that is doing internal beta with likely updates made on a daily basis to test different aspects of the game. It is faster for them to do this since it is much easier to discuss and to fix issues. The closed beta is designed to test varying hardware, test server connections and other aspects of multiplayer (auction house), and also to add feedback on the feel of game or any other issues or problems faced. The later part are likely known and are being worked on based on how server the issue is. Some of the bugs that are seen in the beta are very minor. The thing is it would have been better if there was NDA on the closed beta at least until much later in the beta.
It has not been 10 years in development. It likely has been around 6 years. Still that is a long time but the process that Blizzard uses takes a long time since they do like to try different things to try to make the game the best it can be in the end. I really do think they tried really hard to make the game be available for 2011 since they did release the beta with NDA but likely the internal testers found some major issues and caused the team to look closer at trying to fix the issue. Sometimes with fixing an issue sometimes more issues pop up and they could be even worse than the one they are fixing.
Lol that moron couldn't answer that, Isn't it his fault this "demo" is called a beta in the first place(he announces pretty much everything to the communty first, was he the first to mention the so called beta was coming soon too), clearly he thinks this is what a beta is sigh.
If you asked him, he would probally say "It's a beta, because It's prier to release" (Meaning he thinks everthing that Isn't the released product, is beta).
The key to a modern successful launch is in the first few hours of gameplay. There have been numerous changes to game systems (skills, resources for each class, etc) and these facets need to be balanced across early content in a focused manner, which is what the beta is doing well. Once these systems stabilize, which seems about to change given the utilization of weapon damage across (all?) skills, I would expect beta to open up to the rest of Act 1 to allow more advancement in terms of levels and content.
My problem isn't even with how Bashiok does his job. It's that I don't understand why this job exists. But then again I'm just thinking of other more efficient game developers who deliver great titles in far less than 11 years apart. Many developers but Blizzard know how to shut up and just make their game.
I've been reading in this thread how so many fans here have a misplaced sense of entitlement? Well, if Blizzard feels it's so misplaced, why do they constantly engage with the community and try to defend every little thing they're doing? If they're so confident as developers and marketers, why is Bashiok always out there responding to so many people's complaints and concerns? Sure, he does it well sometimes. But why is he doing it at all? If the fans are so petty and so self-deserving, why is Blizzard always giving them a voice? Maybe because Blizzard thinks they're far less so than some of you here?
To me, it's not even that way with just the beta. To be honest I seriously don't even care about the beta. What bugs me is how there are all these news stories about how they're like, changing the Demon Hunter resource system, or they're changing the way dyes work, or they're scrapping some other system and replacing it with another. So just do it already. Why do I even know about that stuff? What I care about is the end product of those decisions. Is it really normal for developers to inform you so frequently about changes being made to their game? This does nothing to increase hype. All it really does is make you think, okay, so they're changing something again. I guess this is going to push things back even further.
Another thing is, I get so sick and tired of people labeling others who have genuine concerns and complaints about the game. I mean, this IS a forum where we discuss such things isn't it? Where the hell are the moderators taking care of the trolls? Let's stop pretending to be in this lofty non-dumb fan category. People can complain about these things and it doesn't necessarily make them "whiney, bitchy,self-entitled mass of children."
This all reminds me of the whole art direction debate. Were there totally unfair accusations and criticisms being tossed around? Sure there were. But were there also some valid points being made against the art direction, not to be necessarily dismissed especially since Blizzard so frequently engages with their fans and seemingly wants to know what they think? Of course there were. But at the time, SO many bad things were being said about the game's art direction that the people with sensible criticisms were either being drowned out or lumped together with the angry extremists who really were just starting to sound crazy. And so a lot of valid things being said were easily ignored or dismissed.
So...eat poo, ya know?
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
Somebody woke up on the wrong side of their parents basement this morning. Yeah you start small. But does Blizzard not have 100 employees that can test the servers from home? I understand starting small, but they've barely invited any more. They let expectations for the beta get out of hand (yes partly the fans fault), what would it have taken for a blue post to say "Unfortunately due to the nature of this test, very few of you will be invited to this beta."
2000 betas going out in the next 4 weeks should be good, but you need to pump the brakes, bro.
Can you name some of these "great titles," and developers in question here? I agree with your critqiues, but I disagree any other studio has generated a blizzard-quality PC title in the last few years. Come to think of it, I don't even like what blizzard has done lately.
Gravity, turbine(I forgot who originally created Atlantica Online, but who ever did make it, is by far a better developer), Stardock is pretty sweet too, to name just a few(I know there are plenty more), all of which are better PC game developers.
Blizzard hasn't been about developing quality titles in a long time, they are all about generating hype now(aka the title of the games are better then the games them selves, due to their ealier games being so good, and them puting less effort into their newer games).
I'll rephrase my point a bit. In the 5-10 years since, what I would term, the golden age of PC gaming I haven't made a single PC title purchase that I didn't feel buyer's remorse over. Personal experience has lead me to an indictment of the industry rathan than one developer or one company in general.
I've seen and taken part in some innovative and cute indy title betas, but the polish never seems to be applied. I've seen and purchased a few very promising main-stream titles from the giants and felt equal parts nostalgia and dissapointment. Where there was ample polish, there was not much innovation, and where there was innovation; it was hap-hazard.
In the genre's i've traditionally cared about (rpg, mmorpg, rts, tbs, and action variants) things look grim all around. I'm not saying that nothing good is out there, but I really don't agree that Blizzard has fallen under par. I think the whole industry has slipped far down the well and the glorious era of masterful and innovative gaming likely popped with the tech bubble.
Buy Bastion.