I've been giving some thought as to what simple changes (as opposed to a complete overhaul) could be made to paragon, following recent discussion on the topic, and a clear view (indicated by poll results) that the community would like some kind of change. I know there was quite an in-depth suggestion made a fair while back, which included raised caps on numerous stats, as well as the addition of various proc effects and what-not. I would consider that implementation to be an overhaul, and thus less simple to design and balance appropriately; this translates to a lengthier development stage, higher costs, and overall a lower chance that the changes would be made.
Given the above statements, I am looking to get some feedback on some minor (mostly) changes, which would be simpler to balance, in the hopes of finding a middle ground, and hopefully improving our chances of seeing some change in the more-foreseeable (as opposed to distant) future.
Specifically, I would like feedback in terms of;
Reception (How do you feel about the changes?)
Balancing (Do you feel that each stat provides a reasonable bonus?)
Long-term effects (What impact would you expect on Plvl 5k+?).
Here we go.
Firstly, a slightly less minor change, to support changes to paragon. Change mainstat bonuses to the following;
Str:
DMG multiplier for Str classes AND provides block chance (very minor gain per point. Calculate as with CDR/dodge chance - diminishing returns)
No longer provides armor.
Dex:
DMG multiplier for Dex classes AND provides dodge chance.
No longer provides armor.
Int:
DMG multiplier for Int classes AND provides thorns (low gain per point).
- Provides uncapped thorns via paragon.
- Provides a minor dmg source for Int classes as opposed to survivability (suits the glass cannon playstyle).
No longer provides all res.
Vit:
HP and Armor
Provides the 2 most effective stats for survivability, which should make it more attractive vs pure mainstat, particularly with armor/res coming off of mainstat.
Note:
All point distribution caps remain the same (Str, Dex, Int, Vit are uncapped. Everything else capped at 50).
Core (For ALL classes):
Str - Provides Str, which in turn provides block chance, which is otherwise unseen on anything but Crusader.
Dex - Provides Dex, which in turn provides dodge chance, which is otherwise unseen (in reliable quantities) on anything but Monk.
Int - Provides Int, which in turn provides Thorns, which may help to make Thorns focused builds more competitive/stay relevant.
Vit - Provides Vit, which in turn provides reliable survivability.
Offense:
No changes.
Defense:
Life - No change.
Armor - No change.
All Res - Provides +10 All Res AND +0.5% Resistance (applies to all res AND single res) per point.
Life Regen - Provides +100 Life Regen AND +0.5% Life Regen per point.
Utility:
Area Damage - No change.
Resource Cost Reduction (renamed to "Resource Management" for clarity) - Combine maximum resource bonus (originally from Core tab) into this bonus.
Life on Hit - Provides +50 Life on Hit AND +0.5% Life on Hit per point.
REMOVE Gold Find and REPLACE WITH...
Move Speed - Provides +0.5% Move Speed AND increases Max Move Speed by 0.2% per point.
The Benefits:
1) Block based items can be adopted more readily (including Justice Lantern and Defender of Westmarch).
2) Dodge can be used by all classes as supplementary toughness.
- Makes other mantras attractive to monks (rather than just Salvation - Agility).
3) Additional thorns focused builds may emerge, and helps to keep LoN/Invoker Thorns comparable as power creep occurs.
4) Offering multiple sources of toughness for all classes reduces need to stack dmg reduction - opening up more gear slots for build diversity.
5) Shifting direct dmg reduction off of mainstat and onto Vit helps to curb the practice of stacking mainstat as plvl grows.
- For clarity, mainstat in this case refers to the stat associated with dmg multiplier for a given class.
6) Providing a % bonus on All res can curb the need for stacked single res on secondaries, opening up more options for proc on hit/ life per kill/ globe radius, etc.
- Opening up options for proc on hit may also provide reliable CC, which may lead to more build diversity, and better synergy.
- examples: stun on hit + haunt of vaxo / knockback on hit + strongarm bracers / freeze on hit + rhimeheart
7) I personally find life regen to be lackluster and I think my recommendation for a % bonus will help to re-align HP regen with max HP.
- May also open up possibilities for Death's Bargain in the future, although the dmg calc is inefficient for this leg affix atm. It should really be designed to function as Thorns does, gaining dmg bonus according to mainstat.
8) I also find Life on Hit to be poorly aligned with current potential for max HP values, the change would help to re-align HP recovery with max HP.
9) Increasing max move speed by 10% (to a total of 35%) makes move speed on an item valuable again (I'm looking at you Compass Rose and boots).
- Also aids in speed farming and reduces the need for teleport-type skills - giving us back a skill slot and offering wider build diversity.
EDIT:
Heart of Iron would cause issue with a thorns build, but I imagine this could be remedied fairly easily by modifying the leg affix, possibly such that the bonus to thorns was not reliant on a particular mainstat, or where the bonus is associated with the highest non-vit mainstat.
It isn't aimed so much at balancing the overall paragon system, but rather stat distribution. Changing the mechanics of mainstats means that we are required to pour more paragon into Vit as we climb higher in difficulties (read as GR), as opposed to simply pumping into mainstat for dmg. In order for Vit to be an attractive option vs dmg, it would be necessary to drop raw defense off of mainstats. To compensate, supp defense is then added; as a result, gearing options are expanded (i.e use of "on block" items for either defensive OR offensive builds). As stated in the initial post, THIS IS NOT INTENDED AS A LONG-TERM FIX, it's simply an idea which could act as middle-ground, and which requires minimal alteration to the existing structure.
Regarding "power creep". The entire point of this change is to reduce the amount of paragon points spent in your character's native mainstat, without providing any direct compensation; instead placing emphasis on skill variation and gear selection to facilitate further growth. I can only speak for myself, but I don't consider build exploration to be the same thing as power creep.
For instance, I would consider a significant buff to a set to be power creep, while I would consider the option to equip an unaltered piece of gear which provides a dmg bonus, in place of a piece of gear which provides dmg reduction, to be build exploration.
I think paragon is fine as is with maybe some minor tweaks, I like the concept of getting rid of gold find and moving move speed to utility and giving all classes access to alternate stats like dodge/armor/all res via dex/str/int (even though everyone will still just stack main stat). I personally would like to see some kind of "milestone" system. 1 point every 100 levels for access to some souped up paragon abilities like flat % increase to all damage, flat % increase to all damage reduction, increase to the movement speed cap...stuff like that.
Some of those changes are out of place, imo. For example the buff to All resists. Isn't that already the most desired stat from those 4? Why make it even stronger?
Also the core stats wouldn't change as long as you give +dmg from a mainstat. There is no reason to put your points in Dex as barb. Sure, you get dodge, but you lose out on dmg, so it's not an option.
Ideally, block chance from str should be so low that it requires a good 10-15k str to actually get something out of it (keeping in mind block chance is the only form of toughness str would provide). Since it would take so much investment to provide a reliable toughness boost through mainstat, it makes vit more attractive, which acts to funnel a good portion of paragon points, slowing the build in power which we are currently seeing (+5 main stat every plvl above 800). The purpose of providing dex as an alternative is to give an additional level of dmg mitigation, since armor and block chance would see diminishing returns. In time, the combination of armor, dodge and block is intended to provide enough dmg mitigation that a player may fore go some measure of dmg reduction (in the form of a bracer/shoulder/unity/aquilla, etc.) and expand build diversity by swapping in a different item (high multiplier legendary). In other words, you pour the points into paragon, so you can free up a gear slot to support/extend your build's functionality (which generally results in a heavy bonus to dmg output).
Regarding all res, I briefly checked some figures using D3planner. Generally speaking, I expect most players keep their all res at ~80% across the board which requires ~1500 all res. By this time diminishing returns are well and truly evident (~1k res gives 75%, while ~2k increases this to only 85%), so the additional gain in my proposed system is used purely to allow each class to free up some single res on secondaries. Here's some quick figures comparing current and proposed all res. I should point out that this proposal takes no interest in handling pre-800 paragon distribution (I do agree that there is an issue there, I simply don't have any solution for that at this time).
Current:
paragon (250) + 2x all res (130) + 4x single res (210) = 1350 (~79.6%)
Proposed:
(paragon (500) + 2x all res (130) + 2x single res (210)) x 1.25 (paragon) = 1475 (~80.8%)
As you can see, proposed system simply lets you drop 2 stacks of single res, which can then be used more creatively.
@Psykstrike I've given your proposal some thought. In short, you propose to lessen the mitigation benefits of having high paragon, which will give incentives for people to invest in vita instead of main stat. If vita is to become so important, how will it change for the gap in power between low-to-high paragon? How would your proposal be any different than simply increasing the damage of the mobs in high GR? Those with less paragon will be forced to forsake dps in favor of mitigation on their gear.
Sorry to repeat myself, but just so this is abundantly clear; the option for ALL main stats, as opposed to ONLY your native stat will eventually (after a long time) allow you to incorporate an additional build changing legendary, by swapping dmg reduction off of a gear slot and providing that reduction via paragon instead (armor + dodge + block all combined at high levels). The combined values, factoring in diminishing returns on each separate defensive stat, should be enough to allow 1 and no more than 2 (at an extreme stretch) defensive items to be shifted off of a build. To give an estimate, I'd say around 750 points in 3 of the Core stats would ideally provide enough dmg mitigation to switch out 1 item. This means that a player should ideally be at Plvl 2850 for the 1st item switch, and Plvl 5100 or higher for the 2nd item switch.
I would personally consider the option to swap in a build changing item to be highly valuable (although dependent on affix creativity), which hopefully provides enough incentive to funnel into non-native mainstat as Plvl increases.
@wiwh:
The need to forsake dps for mitigation on gear would only be present at low plvl, after which point, the mitigation is shifted to paragon rather than gear, making it a non-issue. Also, Plvl is relatively easily obtained, as evidenced by seasons. Again, this proposal takes no interest in catering to lower plvls, but rather intends to extend the usefulness of paragon, through minor changes to the current system..
Notes: Mod edit: deleted first sentence that referenced to now moved paragon cap discussion
Sorry to repeat myself, but just so this is abundantly clear; the option for ALL main stats, as opposed to ONLY your native stat will eventually (after a long time) allow you to incorporate an additional build changing legendary, by swapping dmg reduction off of a gear slot and providing that reduction via paragon instead (armor + dodge + block all combined at high levels). The combined values, factoring in diminishing returns on each separate defensive stat, should be enough to allow 1 and no more than 2 (at an extreme stretch) defensive items to be shifted off of a build. To give an estimate, I'd say around 750 points in 3 of the Core stats would ideally provide enough dmg mitigation to switch out 1 item. This means that a player should ideally be at Plvl 2850 for the 1st item switch, and Plvl 5100 or higher for the 2nd item switch.
I would personally consider the option to swap in a build changing item to be highly valuable (although dependent on affix creativity), which hopefully provides enough incentive to funnel into non-native mainstat as Plvl increases.
@wiwh:
The need to forsake dps for mitigation on gear would only be present at low plvl, after which point, the mitigation is shifted to paragon rather than gear, making it a non-issue. Also, Plvl is relatively easily obtained, as evidenced by seasons. Again, this proposal takes no interest in catering to lower plvls, but rather intends to extend the usefulness of paragon, through minor changes to the current system..
keep the 4 categories and 5 sub-categories per. However, you can only allocate 200 pts per category. You cap out on stats at 800 max allocate pts. Your paragon level remains infinite. IE: you can be paragon 9000, however your stat allocation will be equivalent to anyone with para800 - infinite.
Say for offense sub-category (paragon 3.0): CDR, RCR, IAS, CHC, and CHD. You would only be able to max out 4/5 of these stats.
I know you guys forgot already but when paragon 2.0 was released it was advertised as a system with versatility. However because the pts are infinite no one ever had "choice."
Once paragon system is fixed what ever they choose, a very old issue will arise. RNG IS RNG. a lack of a trading system. and the lack of super rare legendaries. Everyone remember when the Furnace, SMK, Star of askaranth, etc were impossibly hard to get. Blizzard needs to impliment loot where you cannot use Kadala or the cube. It must be a drop.
All in All LOOT needs to be the end game, not paragon. in my perspective
Notes: Mod edit: deleted first sentence that referenced to now moved paragon cap discussion
also, can a mod lock this thread or something? i feel like every paragon discussion always turns into beef no matter how OP phrases their topic...
I think that is important to continue discussing.
It shows passion on each end, and that is vital if we are going to address the situation. We are not here for milk and cookies, we are hear to discuss D3, people are going to argue, and rightfully so!
Personal attacks though, that is too far, other than that though, heated discussion is amazing to help address issues.
If I were to make changes, I would like to see more categories rather than a gold cap.
We can have boosts to elemental damage, follower damage, split elemental resist to a separate category and have individual resits.
Just have a +1 category for EVERY SINGLE STAT IN THE GAME.
This would have the cap around 2,000 paragon, but would remove the "+5 main stat issue" which would really be nice for all.
Paragon is a really cool system, but it is just one of too many "infinite" categories in the game that became far to much of an issue as powercreep increased. I am fine with current powercreep from sets, legendary, and gems. But not okay with the bland +5 main stat from paragon, when the cube performs that feature in a far greater and more interactive manner. (actually getting you in the game and grinding for items and clearing rifts not trash)
The need to forsake dps for mitigation on gear would only be present at low plvl, after which point, the mitigation is shifted to paragon rather than gear, making it a non-issue. Also, Plvl is relatively easily obtained, as evidenced by seasons. Again, this proposal takes no interest in catering to lower plvls, but rather intends to extend the usefulness of paragon, through minor changes to the current system..
Ok, I get it. But this does not address the "paragon problem" that many have in mind in these discussions, i.e. the linear progression which incentivises dull gameplay and offers outrageous benefits to those who can spend more time in the game.
You should rename your thread accordingly, lest it be misunderstood.
So... some of you will notice this thread saw some heavy moderation. As it turned out, 42 out of 58 posts (!) were not exactly on topic but rather discussing a paragon cap. Some people (including those involved in the discussion and the OP) asked for moderation, so here you get it. As censorship is not an option, and the discussion was harsh but not against our forum rules, neither deletion nor locking isn't an option that I'd fancy. So I decided to split the discussion. All posts that were about a paragon cap were moved to the existing paragon thread in which discussing a cap is an option (since I first brought this up almost a year ago). You can find the starting point an all subsequent 41+ posts here:
In this thread, please stick to OP's ideas as much as possible. Also as usual (do I really need to say this) resort from personal attacks. And last but not least, avoid low information posts (like saying what you're going to do, such as walking away from a thread, without walking away). Thanks!
Why make this paragon nerf harder than it should be?
What about making it really easy... not sure if anyone have posted this idea before but... here it goes:
After p800+, you get 5 main stat pr lvl. Well, thats the problem. Why not only get 5 main stat every 4 levels. Like pre p800?
That way you still get your main stat, but you will have to lvl 4 lvls for 5 main stat instead of 20 main stat as today para system works.
With 5 main stat pr lvl, you get 6000 main stat extra after p800 in current system @p2000. (+1000 main stat pre p800, giving a total of 7000)
(you seee main stat skyrockets after p800 with current system, not good...)
vs
5 main stat pr 4th lvl, you get 1500 main stat extra after p800 in the new system @p2000. (+1000 main stat pre p800, giving a total of 2500)
So, look at this in the short terms, just continue getting 5 main stat pr 4'th lvl after p800. For dedicated players, you still get more powerful with paragons, but its no longer THAT overpowered... and the augment on gear also gets more powerful, as less of the diminshing return on str. from paragonlevels.
Thats my 5 cents, some feedback would be nice, thnx
But why is it a problem to have high paragon players if they get their xp in legal ways? It is same as someone would say "lets remove professional athletes from olympic games so me and my fatass bro Joe could compete in 100m race".
Paragons should not be capped.
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Season 6 barbarian solo sc EU grift 85 12m 23.199s MotE build
I will preface by saying i feel like paragon is an old system that could 100% use (at minimum) tweaks or (at maximum) complete overhaul.
Reception (How do you feel about the changes?)
I feel like they are an absolutely horrible direction: not only do you keep the basic framework of paragon that has diminishing returns and then at plvl 800 suddenly goes off again, some HUGE impact changes to the core stats are made that frankly feel awful.
Just take for a moment and think as a barb who has been playing since D3 came out as barb, and has loved it. Suddenly your main stat is no longer a source of mixed offense and defense, instead only offense, and yet for crusaders nothing changes on that front. That feels really bad, and they have no reasonable reprieve other than to pick up a non-main stat to make up for the fact that they just lost a major source of defense. In D&D this is called "MAD"- having multiple ability score dependence - and it feels really bad, because in the end you only have so much stat point progression.
Also, thorns on intellect is... counter-intuitive if you are looking to reinforce the glass-cannon playstyle. Reinforcing getting hit to do damage is exactly the opposite of reinforcing glass-cannon (not that intelligence users should even be relegated to that super specific playstyle that not everyone wants anyways).
Balancing (Do you feel that each stat provides a reasonable bonus?)
No, each stat does not provide a reasonable bonus, as outlined above. Some classes are obviously favored in the changes (crusaders over barbs), others are just directly sad that they get extra ineffective stats for their archetype while others do not have this problem (int users). Dex is roughly the same, but suffers from exactly the problem that having dodge on dex had before (because... you know it used to do that in one iteration of D3), and many other games have had with providing an easy access to a stat that stops a percentage of attacks from landing - it is either far too strong or far too weak, and it is a huge multiplier on toughness that is only reasonably accessible to two classes, meanwhile no other class has access to anything quite as polarizing. Dodge on dex has already existed, and it doesn't need to happen again.
Long-term effects (What impact would you expect on Plvl 5k+?)
I would expect dex to dominate when they can reach a high level of dodge chance. Scaling damage AND a highly effective multiplier of toughness while removing everyone elses sources of double dipping damage with high impact toughness multipliers means there is no one at all to stop them, not even close.
So these changes are "NOT INTENDED AS A LONG-TERM FIX" -why should they even be considered then? Is the current system broken to a highly unfun or unplayable level? Is there a potential disaster scenario that necessitates implementing short-term band-aid fixes? If not, why spend time balancing this iteration of the same basic system, with all of it's flaws rather than changing the dynamic entirely?
Also, if vitality becomes so good that it competes with main stat... nothing really changes. suddenly people need even more paragon points to match both the defensive and offensive requirements to complete rifts greater than other peoples... it just goes slower.
Currently, Str/Int/Dex provides both an offensive and defensive boost. While the offensive boost is fine, the defensive boost makes Str/Int/Dex more or less stay ahead of Vit in terms of defensive - If you have to make a choice between Vit and Primary stat, Primary stat is almost always the way to go.
Now, please note that Blizzard did have Dex giving Dodge. They changed it for two reasons.
1: It WAS possible to reach 100% dodge chance. This required insanely high paragon and the usage of skills/legendary powers, but once you reached that cap, you could toss out most other defensive stats and go pure offensive.
2: At lower lvls, it was far inferior to the armor/all-res boost of Str/Int.
So you essentially had a stat that was unbalanced defensively at all points - Low lvls, it failed to even compare to the other two stats. High lvls, it blew the other two stats out of the water.
Changing Str to give Block Chance only benefits Crusaders, and leaves Barbarian in the dust UNLESS they cube blood brother. Note that it is currently possible to reach 100% block chance as well, despite what the tooltip says.
Changing Int to give Thorns only benefits Witch Doctors, and only to an extent as Hack/Sanguinary Vambraces does not proc with pets. The two current thorn-capable classes, Barb and Crusader, acquire thorns from vit at a rate of 3 thorns to 1 point of vit. It also does not beat out Str, which provides an equivalent of 10 thorns:1 point of str, that steadily decreases as you get more str. Still, for Vit to beat out Str for thorns damage requires an unobtainable amount of Str, which means that a non-Int thorns build would never use Int unless it gave more then 10 points of thorns for 1 point of int.
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Hiya peepz.
I've been giving some thought as to what simple changes (as opposed to a complete overhaul) could be made to paragon, following recent discussion on the topic, and a clear view (indicated by poll results) that the community would like some kind of change. I know there was quite an in-depth suggestion made a fair while back, which included raised caps on numerous stats, as well as the addition of various proc effects and what-not. I would consider that implementation to be an overhaul, and thus less simple to design and balance appropriately; this translates to a lengthier development stage, higher costs, and overall a lower chance that the changes would be made.
Given the above statements, I am looking to get some feedback on some minor (mostly) changes, which would be simpler to balance, in the hopes of finding a middle ground, and hopefully improving our chances of seeing some change in the more-foreseeable (as opposed to distant) future.
Specifically, I would like feedback in terms of;
Reception (How do you feel about the changes?)
Balancing (Do you feel that each stat provides a reasonable bonus?)
Long-term effects (What impact would you expect on Plvl 5k+?).
Here we go.
Firstly, a slightly less minor change, to support changes to paragon. Change mainstat bonuses to the following;
Str:
DMG multiplier for Str classes AND provides block chance (very minor gain per point. Calculate as with CDR/dodge chance - diminishing returns)
No longer provides armor.
Dex:
DMG multiplier for Dex classes AND provides dodge chance.
No longer provides armor.
Int:
DMG multiplier for Int classes AND provides thorns (low gain per point).
No longer provides all res.
Vit:
HP and Armor
Provides the 2 most effective stats for survivability, which should make it more attractive vs pure mainstat, particularly with armor/res coming off of mainstat.
Note:
All point distribution caps remain the same (Str, Dex, Int, Vit are uncapped. Everything else capped at 50).
Core (For ALL classes):
Str - Provides Str, which in turn provides block chance, which is otherwise unseen on anything but Crusader.
Dex - Provides Dex, which in turn provides dodge chance, which is otherwise unseen (in reliable quantities) on anything but Monk.
Int - Provides Int, which in turn provides Thorns, which may help to make Thorns focused builds more competitive/stay relevant.
Vit - Provides Vit, which in turn provides reliable survivability.
Offense:
No changes.
Defense:
Life - No change.
Armor - No change.
All Res - Provides +10 All Res AND +0.5% Resistance (applies to all res AND single res) per point.
Life Regen - Provides +100 Life Regen AND +0.5% Life Regen per point.
Utility:
Area Damage - No change.
Resource Cost Reduction (renamed to "Resource Management" for clarity) - Combine maximum resource bonus (originally from Core tab) into this bonus.
Life on Hit - Provides +50 Life on Hit AND +0.5% Life on Hit per point.
REMOVE Gold Find and REPLACE WITH...
Move Speed - Provides +0.5% Move Speed AND increases Max Move Speed by 0.2% per point.
The Benefits:
1) Block based items can be adopted more readily (including Justice Lantern and Defender of Westmarch).
2) Dodge can be used by all classes as supplementary toughness.
3) Additional thorns focused builds may emerge, and helps to keep LoN/Invoker Thorns comparable as power creep occurs.
4) Offering multiple sources of toughness for all classes reduces need to stack dmg reduction - opening up more gear slots for build diversity.
5) Shifting direct dmg reduction off of mainstat and onto Vit helps to curb the practice of stacking mainstat as plvl grows.
6) Providing a % bonus on All res can curb the need for stacked single res on secondaries, opening up more options for proc on hit/ life per kill/ globe radius, etc.
7) I personally find life regen to be lackluster and I think my recommendation for a % bonus will help to re-align HP regen with max HP.
8) I also find Life on Hit to be poorly aligned with current potential for max HP values, the change would help to re-align HP recovery with max HP.
9) Increasing max move speed by 10% (to a total of 35%) makes move speed on an item valuable again (I'm looking at you Compass Rose and boots).
EDIT:
Heart of Iron would cause issue with a thorns build, but I imagine this could be remedied fairly easily by modifying the leg affix, possibly such that the bonus to thorns was not reliant on a particular mainstat, or where the bonus is associated with the highest non-vit mainstat.
It isn't aimed so much at balancing the overall paragon system, but rather stat distribution. Changing the mechanics of mainstats means that we are required to pour more paragon into Vit as we climb higher in difficulties (read as GR), as opposed to simply pumping into mainstat for dmg. In order for Vit to be an attractive option vs dmg, it would be necessary to drop raw defense off of mainstats. To compensate, supp defense is then added; as a result, gearing options are expanded (i.e use of "on block" items for either defensive OR offensive builds). As stated in the initial post, THIS IS NOT INTENDED AS A LONG-TERM FIX, it's simply an idea which could act as middle-ground, and which requires minimal alteration to the existing structure.
Regarding "power creep". The entire point of this change is to reduce the amount of paragon points spent in your character's native mainstat, without providing any direct compensation; instead placing emphasis on skill variation and gear selection to facilitate further growth. I can only speak for myself, but I don't consider build exploration to be the same thing as power creep.
For instance, I would consider a significant buff to a set to be power creep, while I would consider the option to equip an unaltered piece of gear which provides a dmg bonus, in place of a piece of gear which provides dmg reduction, to be build exploration.
I think paragon is fine as is with maybe some minor tweaks, I like the concept of getting rid of gold find and moving move speed to utility and giving all classes access to alternate stats like dodge/armor/all res via dex/str/int (even though everyone will still just stack main stat). I personally would like to see some kind of "milestone" system. 1 point every 100 levels for access to some souped up paragon abilities like flat % increase to all damage, flat % increase to all damage reduction, increase to the movement speed cap...stuff like that.
Regarding all res, I briefly checked some figures using D3planner. Generally speaking, I expect most players keep their all res at ~80% across the board which requires ~1500 all res. By this time diminishing returns are well and truly evident (~1k res gives 75%, while ~2k increases this to only 85%), so the additional gain in my proposed system is used purely to allow each class to free up some single res on secondaries. Here's some quick figures comparing current and proposed all res. I should point out that this proposal takes no interest in handling pre-800 paragon distribution (I do agree that there is an issue there, I simply don't have any solution for that at this time).
Current:
paragon (250) + 2x all res (130) + 4x single res (210) = 1350 (~79.6%)
Proposed:
(paragon (500) + 2x all res (130) + 2x single res (210)) x 1.25 (paragon) = 1475 (~80.8%)
As you can see, proposed system simply lets you drop 2 stacks of single res, which can then be used more creatively.
@Psykstrike I've given your proposal some thought. In short, you propose to lessen the mitigation benefits of having high paragon, which will give incentives for people to invest in vita instead of main stat. If vita is to become so important, how will it change for the gap in power between low-to-high paragon? How would your proposal be any different than simply increasing the damage of the mobs in high GR? Those with less paragon will be forced to forsake dps in favor of mitigation on their gear.
Sorry to repeat myself, but just so this is abundantly clear; the option for ALL main stats, as opposed to ONLY your native stat will eventually (after a long time) allow you to incorporate an additional build changing legendary, by swapping dmg reduction off of a gear slot and providing that reduction via paragon instead (armor + dodge + block all combined at high levels). The combined values, factoring in diminishing returns on each separate defensive stat, should be enough to allow 1 and no more than 2 (at an extreme stretch) defensive items to be shifted off of a build. To give an estimate, I'd say around 750 points in 3 of the Core stats would ideally provide enough dmg mitigation to switch out 1 item. This means that a player should ideally be at Plvl 2850 for the 1st item switch, and Plvl 5100 or higher for the 2nd item switch.
I would personally consider the option to swap in a build changing item to be highly valuable (although dependent on affix creativity), which hopefully provides enough incentive to funnel into non-native mainstat as Plvl increases.
@wiwh:
The need to forsake dps for mitigation on gear would only be present at low plvl, after which point, the mitigation is shifted to paragon rather than gear, making it a non-issue. Also, Plvl is relatively easily obtained, as evidenced by seasons. Again, this proposal takes no interest in catering to lower plvls, but rather intends to extend the usefulness of paragon, through minor changes to the current system..
keep the 4 categories and 5 sub-categories per. However, you can only allocate 200 pts per category. You cap out on stats at 800 max allocate pts. Your paragon level remains infinite. IE: you can be paragon 9000, however your stat allocation will be equivalent to anyone with para800 - infinite.
Say for offense sub-category (paragon 3.0): CDR, RCR, IAS, CHC, and CHD. You would only be able to max out 4/5 of these stats.
I know you guys forgot already but when paragon 2.0 was released it was advertised as a system with versatility. However because the pts are infinite no one ever had "choice."
Once paragon system is fixed what ever they choose, a very old issue will arise. RNG IS RNG. a lack of a trading system. and the lack of super rare legendaries. Everyone remember when the Furnace, SMK, Star of askaranth, etc were impossibly hard to get. Blizzard needs to impliment loot where you cannot use Kadala or the cube. It must be a drop.
All in All LOOT needs to be the end game, not paragon. in my perspective
THEY HATE US, CUZ THEY AIN'T US
It shows passion on each end, and that is vital if we are going to address the situation. We are not here for milk and cookies, we are hear to discuss D3, people are going to argue, and rightfully so!
Personal attacks though, that is too far, other than that though, heated discussion is amazing to help address issues.
If I were to make changes, I would like to see more categories rather than a gold cap.
We can have boosts to elemental damage, follower damage, split elemental resist to a separate category and have individual resits.
Just have a +1 category for EVERY SINGLE STAT IN THE GAME.
This would have the cap around 2,000 paragon, but would remove the "+5 main stat issue" which would really be nice for all.
Paragon is a really cool system, but it is just one of too many "infinite" categories in the game that became far to much of an issue as powercreep increased. I am fine with current powercreep from sets, legendary, and gems. But not okay with the bland +5 main stat from paragon, when the cube performs that feature in a far greater and more interactive manner. (actually getting you in the game and grinding for items and clearing rifts not trash)
You should rename your thread accordingly, lest it be misunderstood.
So... some of you will notice this thread saw some heavy moderation. As it turned out, 42 out of 58 posts (!) were not exactly on topic but rather discussing a paragon cap. Some people (including those involved in the discussion and the OP) asked for moderation, so here you get it. As censorship is not an option, and the discussion was harsh but not against our forum rules, neither deletion nor locking isn't an option that I'd fancy. So I decided to split the discussion. All posts that were about a paragon cap were moved to the existing paragon thread in which discussing a cap is an option (since I first brought this up almost a year ago). You can find the starting point an all subsequent 41+ posts here:
http://www.diablofans.com/forums/diablo-iii-general-forums/diablo-iii-general-discussion/130338-paragon-10000?comment=183
In this thread, please stick to OP's ideas as much as possible. Also as usual (do I really need to say this) resort from personal attacks. And last but not least, avoid low information posts (like saying what you're going to do, such as walking away from a thread, without walking away). Thanks!
Now everyone, get back to discussing OP's idea!
Why make this paragon nerf harder than it should be?
What about making it really easy... not sure if anyone have posted this idea before but... here it goes:
After p800+, you get 5 main stat pr lvl. Well, thats the problem. Why not only get 5 main stat every 4 levels. Like pre p800?
That way you still get your main stat, but you will have to lvl 4 lvls for 5 main stat instead of 20 main stat as today para system works.
With 5 main stat pr lvl, you get 6000 main stat extra after p800 in current system @p2000. (+1000 main stat pre p800, giving a total of 7000)
(you seee main stat skyrockets after p800 with current system, not good...)
vs
5 main stat pr 4th lvl, you get 1500 main stat extra after p800 in the new system @p2000. (+1000 main stat pre p800, giving a total of 2500)
So, look at this in the short terms, just continue getting 5 main stat pr 4'th lvl after p800. For dedicated players, you still get more powerful with paragons, but its no longer THAT overpowered... and the augment on gear also gets more powerful, as less of the diminshing return on str. from paragonlevels.
Thats my 5 cents, some feedback would be nice, thnx
But why is it a problem to have high paragon players if they get their xp in legal ways? It is same as someone would say "lets remove professional athletes from olympic games so me and my fatass bro Joe could compete in 100m race".
Paragons should not be capped.
Season 6 barbarian solo sc EU grift 85 12m 23.199s MotE build
I will preface by saying i feel like paragon is an old system that could 100% use (at minimum) tweaks or (at maximum) complete overhaul.
Reception (How do you feel about the changes?)
I feel like they are an absolutely horrible direction: not only do you keep the basic framework of paragon that has diminishing returns and then at plvl 800 suddenly goes off again, some HUGE impact changes to the core stats are made that frankly feel awful.
Just take for a moment and think as a barb who has been playing since D3 came out as barb, and has loved it. Suddenly your main stat is no longer a source of mixed offense and defense, instead only offense, and yet for crusaders nothing changes on that front. That feels really bad, and they have no reasonable reprieve other than to pick up a non-main stat to make up for the fact that they just lost a major source of defense. In D&D this is called "MAD"- having multiple ability score dependence - and it feels really bad, because in the end you only have so much stat point progression.
Also, thorns on intellect is... counter-intuitive if you are looking to reinforce the glass-cannon playstyle. Reinforcing getting hit to do damage is exactly the opposite of reinforcing glass-cannon (not that intelligence users should even be relegated to that super specific playstyle that not everyone wants anyways).
Balancing (Do you feel that each stat provides a reasonable bonus?)
No, each stat does not provide a reasonable bonus, as outlined above. Some classes are obviously favored in the changes (crusaders over barbs), others are just directly sad that they get extra ineffective stats for their archetype while others do not have this problem (int users). Dex is roughly the same, but suffers from exactly the problem that having dodge on dex had before (because... you know it used to do that in one iteration of D3), and many other games have had with providing an easy access to a stat that stops a percentage of attacks from landing - it is either far too strong or far too weak, and it is a huge multiplier on toughness that is only reasonably accessible to two classes, meanwhile no other class has access to anything quite as polarizing. Dodge on dex has already existed, and it doesn't need to happen again.
Long-term effects (What impact would you expect on Plvl 5k+?)
I would expect dex to dominate when they can reach a high level of dodge chance. Scaling damage AND a highly effective multiplier of toughness while removing everyone elses sources of double dipping damage with high impact toughness multipliers means there is no one at all to stop them, not even close.
So these changes are "NOT INTENDED AS A LONG-TERM FIX" -why should they even be considered then? Is the current system broken to a highly unfun or unplayable level? Is there a potential disaster scenario that necessitates implementing short-term band-aid fixes? If not, why spend time balancing this iteration of the same basic system, with all of it's flaws rather than changing the dynamic entirely?
Also, if vitality becomes so good that it competes with main stat... nothing really changes. suddenly people need even more paragon points to match both the defensive and offensive requirements to complete rifts greater than other peoples... it just goes slower.
edited for readability.
A few notes
1) Removal of Armor/All-res from primary stats
Currently, Str/Int/Dex provides both an offensive and defensive boost. While the offensive boost is fine, the defensive boost makes Str/Int/Dex more or less stay ahead of Vit in terms of defensive - If you have to make a choice between Vit and Primary stat, Primary stat is almost always the way to go.
Now, please note that Blizzard did have Dex giving Dodge. They changed it for two reasons.
1: It WAS possible to reach 100% dodge chance. This required insanely high paragon and the usage of skills/legendary powers, but once you reached that cap, you could toss out most other defensive stats and go pure offensive.
2: At lower lvls, it was far inferior to the armor/all-res boost of Str/Int.
So you essentially had a stat that was unbalanced defensively at all points - Low lvls, it failed to even compare to the other two stats. High lvls, it blew the other two stats out of the water.
Changing Str to give Block Chance only benefits Crusaders, and leaves Barbarian in the dust UNLESS they cube blood brother. Note that it is currently possible to reach 100% block chance as well, despite what the tooltip says.
Changing Int to give Thorns only benefits Witch Doctors, and only to an extent as Hack/Sanguinary Vambraces does not proc with pets. The two current thorn-capable classes, Barb and Crusader, acquire thorns from vit at a rate of 3 thorns to 1 point of vit. It also does not beat out Str, which provides an equivalent of 10 thorns:1 point of str, that steadily decreases as you get more str. Still, for Vit to beat out Str for thorns damage requires an unobtainable amount of Str, which means that a non-Int thorns build would never use Int unless it gave more then 10 points of thorns for 1 point of int.