Indeed. PKing simply has no functional purpose in basic gameplay. Hardcore I can see how it functions in, makes things a little harder and makes you want to get better.
The solution is easy: Blizzard should just have two separate realms on D3 Battle.net: Hardcore PvP and Normal. In Normal, consensual PvP would still be possible if both players flag themselves for PvP. In Hardcore PvP, everyone is fair game at all times, and when your character dies it doesn't come back.
The solution is easy: Blizzard should just have two separate realms on D3 Battle.net: Hardcore PvP and Normal. In Normal, consensual PvP would still be possible if both players flag themselves for PvP. In Hardcore PvP, everyone is fair game at all times, and when your character dies it doesn't come back.
This would divide people to a great degree and defeat what they're trying to accomplish, cooperative game play.
If you're talking about what I think you are. Like softcore, hardcore, PVP softcore, PVP hardcore.
A little OT but to clarify some people that maybe didn't play wow? It is not just dueling or pvp enabled. There are PVE servers and PVP servers. In PVP only cities and 2-3 starting areas are safe zones rest is contested => PVP. In those areas a lot of ganking and griefing happens all tho there isn't much penalties but corpse running, but it will take time and yea piss u off when questing or something.
About D3 PK. Well they could change the D2 system a bit, really hard to say how tho
So that your level 52 buddy can't come in and rush you through normal? Yup, real helpfull.
That's what private games are for
Quote from "LinkX" »
It retains nothing. A new game is a new game is a ne game. The drive to make the best character is about A) Pride PvP and C) Knowing your the best.
How can you say it retains nothing? If there goal is to make a completely new game, they wouldn't be calling it D3. It would be a whole new franchise. The whole point in continuing a franchise is to retain the aspects that made the previous games in the series unique. You might think that the PvP system in D2 is miserable, but I wouldn't have started this thread if I didn't think it was amazing. I have never played a game with such a great PvP. D2 is #1 when it comes to that in my opinoin.
Besides, after seeing the demo we already know it retains a whole lot, and the developers have even said that they are trying to retain the feeling of the first two games. AND they have said that it will be the same size as D2. If it's the same size as D2 it will naturally mold into a competative PvP game where everyone is competing to have the best character. This is severely played down without non-consentual PK.
Quote from "LinkX" »
As for the "Once they finish PvE then there's only PvP. It's only like this in this kind of game!" argument is foolish. Every game (Except little maggot crap like maple Story) has a level cap where you have nothing to do but PvP. The difference is that other games do it without pissing half the people off. Diablo 2's PK system fails at that. And it fails misserably. Misserably indeed.
You are missing my point. The more competative PvP is, the more fun it is. There is nothing competative about chosing which players you are imune to. Such a concept should not exist in a PvP game. I believe D2 is PvP oriented enough to be considered a PvP game. And there is nothing wrong with pissing people off in a PvP game. Look at other PvP games like First person shooters... you think they would be better without people pissing eachother off and only shooting whoever allows them to shoot them? Come on man...
Quote from "LinkX" »
Except there the RPG team, the remenants of Blizzard North. See, there's an MMO team, an RTS team, and an RPG team. The MMO team is working on WotLK, the RTS team is working on SC2, and the RPG team is working on D3. Thus there specialty is not MMO's, but rather RPG's.
But as far as I know Blizzard doesn't have any RPG's besides the diablo series. And I know that the lead devs on D3 weren't part of the original D2 team.
Indeed. PKing simply has no functional purpose in basic gameplay. Hardcore I can see how it functions in, makes things a little harder and makes you want to get better.
Why are you saying indeed to my post when I agreed with the guy who fucking realizes Hardcore = No Respawn nothing else.
Pvp is fun.
Pking is fun.
Getting pked is not.
Revenge is fun.
It makes you want to train harder than the person who pk'd you. There will prolly be a blacklist in diablo where you can save the dudes name then devote your entire life into killing that bastard.
Diablo is a dark world. Pking fits perfectly into that.
There are assholes in every game. Lets take maplestory for example. Maplestory is so friendly that there isnt PKInG AT ALL!!!!
But then some asshole comes along and steals your kills for the entire day.
Assholes and hatred can be found in various forms in all games. If Pking is gone, that doesnt mean assholes will leave.
If pking is gone, it doesnt mean the game will be more cooperative.
You know originally i would have agreed with your pvp arguements. As i read through it however i came to realization that i loved PVP in d2....however 99% of my pvp was in a "duels" or similar rooms. Therefore if blizzard takes out unwelcomed pvp i can live with that. Preferably replaced with a "PVP-ON"/"PVP-OFF" tab when you go to create a room, i would notice no difference with my style of play... All i know is i better get a damn ear when they die:thumbsup:
~Seth
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You are missing my point. The more competative PvP is, the more fun it is. There is nothing competative about chosing which players you are imune to. Such a concept should not exist in a PvP game. I believe D2 is PvP oriented enough to be considered a PvP game. And there is nothing wrong with pissing people off in a PvP game. Look at other PvP games like First person shooters... you think they would be better without people pissing eachother off and only shooting whoever allows them to shoot them? Come on man...
There you go. You answered your on damn thing. There is nothing fun about chasing down a level 12 doing tristram runs who can't fight back either, yet your arguing for it. And PK is all about killing those who can't fight back. So yea, unless your a complete jackass who gets his jollies from upsetting people, there is no use for PK. And I certainly hope your not a complete jackass who gets his jollies from upsetting people. I certainly hope you arn't.
I don't mind PvP, but there's gotta be a limit. Maybe make it so you can only hostile those within 5-10 levels of yourself?
Diablo is a dark world. Pking fits perfectly into that.
I'd like to know how exactly PKing fits into the flavor and story of the Diablo universe. Yes, it is a dark world, but you are playing the role of a hero fighting against the darkness. What sense does it make for one of these heroes to go around killing other people who are also fighting against the darkness? Granted, I'm not very intimate with the Diablo lore, but it doesn't make sense to me.
Pvp is fun.
Pking is fun.
Getting pked is not.
Revenge is fun.
(applause) :thumbsup:
I'd like to know how exactly PKing fits into the flavor and story of the Diablo universe. Yes, it is a dark world, but you are playing the role of a hero fighting against the darkness. What sense does it make for one of these heroes to go around killing other people who are also fighting against the darkness? Granted, I'm not very intimate with the Diablo lore, but it doesn't make sense to me.
So just know about de "Diablo lore" that many of these so-called "heros" could be vilain otherwise... (read on an interview too...).
Look at the (so-loved) Necro in Diablo 2, it was nearly the first time we could play a "so dark magic-character" as a "hero".
The Assassin too clearly don't have the morality of the Pally...
Diablo is a dark world with dark (anti)heros and that's why we love it.
There you go. You answered your on damn thing. There is nothing fun about chasing down a level 12 doing tristram runs who can't fight back either, yet your arguing for it. And PK is all about killing those who can't fight back. So yea, unless your a complete jackass who gets his jollies from upsetting people, there is no use for PK. And I certainly hope your not a complete jackass who gets his jollies from upsetting people. I certainly hope you arn't.
I don't mind PvP, but there's gotta be a limit. Maybe make it so you can only hostile those within 5-10 levels of yourself?
I don't advocate killing low-levels just to be a jerk. The ability to kill low-levels there, but you can just as easily hostile someone who is a high level. There is NOTHING competative about being able to choose who can and can't ever attack you.
and PK is not necessarely about just picking on people who can't fight back. It's about being fair game to other players. If you get rid of PK, then yeah, the cowardly act of killing low levels will be removed, but I am saying that it will take the whole core pvp aspect down with it. There is no decent competition in games where you can decide to be invulnerable to other players the whole time. If people MUST have it this way, at least limit it to softcore. Even then, softcore would be worse, but in HC it would kill the game.
If you could only hostile players a certain level above or below you (assuming you mean non-consentual hostile) that would definitly solve low-level hunting, but there is a whole community of players who play PKK on HC. There is nothing more satisfying in the entire world of diablo2 than sooping up your level 28 and killing a level 90 who is nothing but a douche who thinks he is about to whipe out another defensless low level. This adds a whole new dimention to PvP which other games have not achieved. Why oh why do you want us to lose these unique playing playing styles? D2 had endless possibilities because of the way it was set up.
PvP isn't for everyone and Diablo CERTAINLY is not a PvP game. PvP comes later after the game.
The difference in FPS games and Diablo is vast. FPS serve near no purpose by completing the storyline. You have to play through the story to get gear to PvP in Diablo.
PKing on the other hand is pretty useless all together. Surprise killing someone who is minding their own business is lame and only serves the purpose to make you feel somehow superior by getting the jump on someone lower leveled or unsuspecting.
There is NOTHING competative about being able to choose who can and can't ever attack you.
This is not strictly true. Consensual dueling is good competition and can even be structured into a competitive tournament. On the other hand, there is nothing competitive about entering a game, hostiling everyone in it and then waiting outside town until everyone else just leaves the game. That's just going out of your way to drag unwilling participants into a game they never signed up for, ruining their fun. By the way, can I trouble you to read my first post in this thread, the one I reposted from diii.net that you never responded to there either? Thanks in advance
Now my options are:
1) continue play as normal and get killed by the PKer
2) run back to town and hope he leaves
3) join a different game
In any of these situations, my gameplay has been disrupted in a way that I never wanted to have happen to me. The PK may not have killed anyone, but he ruined our game, which was his goal. That is why I say that he has already won, so don't tell me that PKing is trivial because it's so easy to avoid death.
Neferim, I can't respond to every single reply. Even if I wanted to, I don't have time for that. I do my best to keep the discussion moving since I started it, so if I don't reply it's because I just don't have the time or you are not presenting any novel arguments.
Anyway, the reason your reply may have gone unanswered is because the answer to your question can be found in the original post.
As a player in a multiplayer PvP environment, it's your responsibility to avoid PKers. Once in a while a PKer will join your game and ruin it. True. No denying that. But they have every right to try and kill people in a public game, regardless of your intended goals for that game. As soon as a game is open to the public it is no longer "your" game. It is only yours if it is private. I would agree that PK would be unfair if a) all games were public if the game weren't a highly PvP oriented game. However D2 does not fall under either of those categories. I think this is a perfectly fair system, and D3 should adopt it.
I agree, sometimes the duel is over before it began because the PKer is stronger than you, so you just have to end up leaving the game or waiting it out. But just because someone can potentially be too strong for you does not mean they should be denied the ability to compete with you. Are you saying that PKing would be OK if the PKer is not very strong?
by the way, I'm done here for a little while... maybe i'll come back in a couple days and see how this is moving along.
Neferim, I can't respond to every single reply. Even if I wanted to, I don't have time for that. I do my best to keep the discussion moving since I started it, so if I don't reply it's because I just don't have the time or you are not presenting any novel arguments.
Anyway, the reason your reply may have gone unanswered is because the answer to your question can be found in the original post.
As a player in a multiplayer PvP environment, it's your responsibility to avoid PKers. Once in a while a PKer will join your game and ruin it. True. No denying that. But they have every right to try and kill people in a public game, regardless of your intended goals for that game. As soon as a game is open to the public it is no longer "your" game. It is only yours if it is private. I would agree that PK would be unfair if a) all games were public if the game weren't a highly PvP oriented game. However D2 does not fall under either of those categories. I think this is a perfectly fair system, and D3 should adopt it.
I agree, sometimes the duel is over before it began because the PKer is stronger than you, so you just have to end up leaving the game or waiting it out. But just because someone can potentially be too strong for you does not mean they should be denied the ability to compete with you. Are you saying that PKing would be OK if the PKer is not very strong?
by the way, I'm done here for a little while... maybe i'll come back in a couple days and see how this is moving along.
That would be fine, except it's not a PvP environment, it was intended to be a cooperative environment that benefited people in terms of loot. It evolved into a PvP environment when PKing got out of hand.
Neferim, I can't respond to every single reply. Even if I wanted to, I don't have time for that. I do my best to keep the discussion moving since I started it, so if I don't reply it's because I just don't have the time or you are not presenting any novel arguments.
Anyway, the reason your reply may have gone unanswered is because the answer to your question can be found in the original post.
As a player in a multiplayer PvP environment, it's your responsibility to avoid PKers. Once in a while a PKer will join your game and ruin it. True. No denying that. But they have every right to try and kill people in a public game, regardless of your intended goals for that game. As soon as a game is open to the public it is no longer "your" game. It is only yours if it is private. I would agree that PK would be unfair if a) all games were public if the game weren't a highly PvP oriented game. However D2 does not fall under either of those categories. I think this is a perfectly fair system, and D3 should adopt it.
I agree, sometimes the duel is over before it began because the PKer is stronger than you, so you just have to end up leaving the game or waiting it out. But just because someone can potentially be too strong for you does not mean they should be denied the ability to compete with you. Are you saying that PKing would be OK if the PKer is not very strong?
by the way, I'm done here for a little while... maybe i'll come back in a couple days and see how this is moving along.
I'm trying to understand what you're saying, but I just can't agree.
In DII, it took me eons to find a game which everybody actually cooperated as a team to conquer the game. No rushing, no trading, no lazy weak player that forces you to do all the work, but mutual cooperation. I pray that you may understand how rare this is.
And what happens then? A PKer marauds in, and KABLOOEY!
GAME OVER MAN.
Ugh.
I'm trying to understand what you're saying, but I just can't agree.
In DII, it took me eons to find a game which everybody actually cooperated as a team to conquer the game. No rushing, no trading, no lazy weak player that forces you to do all the work, but mutual cooperation. I pray that you may understand how rare this is.
And what happens then? A PKer marauds in, and KABLOOEY!
GAME OVER MAN.
Ugh.
That's a really good point. I want to be able to enjoy a even leveled cooperative game play. That was insanely hard to find in D2, it was all rushes pretty much.
I see the light. Those damn level 12's need to stop PK'ing those poor innocent level 97's. It's just not right. *Eye roll.*
Fact is, PK is about killing. Nobody is stupid enough to pick a fight that they can't win. And if they are, then it's there own fault. But for those of us who get picked on at 12 by the 97, it's not fair nor is it right nor is it what Diablo 2 was designed for. PvP is fun, and it's part of D2, but PK is about picking on people weaker then you and getting jollies from it. Diablo 2 isn't about picking on people, and from what I understand, Diablo 3 is about cooperation, not picking on people.
Then again, that's just how I see it. maybe if I was one of the few PK'ers then I'd see it differently. See the fun of killing all those level 12's. The joy in ruining the game for everyone else. Make myself feel manly by making little kids cry that there HC character just died.
On a side note: Say you joined a game and it's your first game. You make it public, hoping to make some friends online. Is it your fault that you made it public and got killed the moment you hit level 9? (That's why the Diablo 2 world is shrinking. Scaring people away.)
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Indeed. PKing simply has no functional purpose in basic gameplay. Hardcore I can see how it functions in, makes things a little harder and makes you want to get better.
This would divide people to a great degree and defeat what they're trying to accomplish, cooperative game play.
If you're talking about what I think you are. Like softcore, hardcore, PVP softcore, PVP hardcore.
About D3 PK. Well they could change the D2 system a bit, really hard to say how tho
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
That's what private games are for
How can you say it retains nothing? If there goal is to make a completely new game, they wouldn't be calling it D3. It would be a whole new franchise. The whole point in continuing a franchise is to retain the aspects that made the previous games in the series unique. You might think that the PvP system in D2 is miserable, but I wouldn't have started this thread if I didn't think it was amazing. I have never played a game with such a great PvP. D2 is #1 when it comes to that in my opinoin.
Besides, after seeing the demo we already know it retains a whole lot, and the developers have even said that they are trying to retain the feeling of the first two games. AND they have said that it will be the same size as D2. If it's the same size as D2 it will naturally mold into a competative PvP game where everyone is competing to have the best character. This is severely played down without non-consentual PK.
You are missing my point. The more competative PvP is, the more fun it is. There is nothing competative about chosing which players you are imune to. Such a concept should not exist in a PvP game. I believe D2 is PvP oriented enough to be considered a PvP game. And there is nothing wrong with pissing people off in a PvP game. Look at other PvP games like First person shooters... you think they would be better without people pissing eachother off and only shooting whoever allows them to shoot them? Come on man...
But as far as I know Blizzard doesn't have any RPG's besides the diablo series. And I know that the lead devs on D3 weren't part of the original D2 team.
D2's PvP is garbage.
Because I agree with most of his post except that Hardcore shouldn't have PKing?
Yes D2's PvP is pretty crap.
Pking is fun.
Getting pked is not.
Revenge is fun.
It makes you want to train harder than the person who pk'd you. There will prolly be a blacklist in diablo where you can save the dudes name then devote your entire life into killing that bastard.
Diablo is a dark world. Pking fits perfectly into that.
There are assholes in every game. Lets take maplestory for example. Maplestory is so friendly that there isnt PKInG AT ALL!!!!
But then some asshole comes along and steals your kills for the entire day.
Assholes and hatred can be found in various forms in all games. If Pking is gone, that doesnt mean assholes will leave.
If pking is gone, it doesnt mean the game will be more cooperative.
~Seth
There you go. You answered your on damn thing. There is nothing fun about chasing down a level 12 doing tristram runs who can't fight back either, yet your arguing for it. And PK is all about killing those who can't fight back. So yea, unless your a complete jackass who gets his jollies from upsetting people, there is no use for PK. And I certainly hope your not a complete jackass who gets his jollies from upsetting people. I certainly hope you arn't.
I don't mind PvP, but there's gotta be a limit. Maybe make it so you can only hostile those within 5-10 levels of yourself?
I'd like to know how exactly PKing fits into the flavor and story of the Diablo universe. Yes, it is a dark world, but you are playing the role of a hero fighting against the darkness. What sense does it make for one of these heroes to go around killing other people who are also fighting against the darkness? Granted, I'm not very intimate with the Diablo lore, but it doesn't make sense to me.
(applause) :thumbsup:
So just know about de "Diablo lore" that many of these so-called "heros" could be vilain otherwise... (read on an interview too...).
Look at the (so-loved) Necro in Diablo 2, it was nearly the first time we could play a "so dark magic-character" as a "hero".
The Assassin too clearly don't have the morality of the Pally...
Diablo is a dark world with dark (anti)heros and that's why we love it.
I don't advocate killing low-levels just to be a jerk. The ability to kill low-levels there, but you can just as easily hostile someone who is a high level. There is NOTHING competative about being able to choose who can and can't ever attack you.
and PK is not necessarely about just picking on people who can't fight back. It's about being fair game to other players. If you get rid of PK, then yeah, the cowardly act of killing low levels will be removed, but I am saying that it will take the whole core pvp aspect down with it. There is no decent competition in games where you can decide to be invulnerable to other players the whole time. If people MUST have it this way, at least limit it to softcore. Even then, softcore would be worse, but in HC it would kill the game.
If you could only hostile players a certain level above or below you (assuming you mean non-consentual hostile) that would definitly solve low-level hunting, but there is a whole community of players who play PKK on HC. There is nothing more satisfying in the entire world of diablo2 than sooping up your level 28 and killing a level 90 who is nothing but a douche who thinks he is about to whipe out another defensless low level. This adds a whole new dimention to PvP which other games have not achieved. Why oh why do you want us to lose these unique playing playing styles? D2 had endless possibilities because of the way it was set up.
The difference in FPS games and Diablo is vast. FPS serve near no purpose by completing the storyline. You have to play through the story to get gear to PvP in Diablo.
PKing on the other hand is pretty useless all together. Surprise killing someone who is minding their own business is lame and only serves the purpose to make you feel somehow superior by getting the jump on someone lower leveled or unsuspecting.
This is not strictly true. Consensual dueling is good competition and can even be structured into a competitive tournament. On the other hand, there is nothing competitive about entering a game, hostiling everyone in it and then waiting outside town until everyone else just leaves the game. That's just going out of your way to drag unwilling participants into a game they never signed up for, ruining their fun. By the way, can I trouble you to read my first post in this thread, the one I reposted from diii.net that you never responded to there either? Thanks in advance
Neferim, I can't respond to every single reply. Even if I wanted to, I don't have time for that. I do my best to keep the discussion moving since I started it, so if I don't reply it's because I just don't have the time or you are not presenting any novel arguments.
Anyway, the reason your reply may have gone unanswered is because the answer to your question can be found in the original post.
As a player in a multiplayer PvP environment, it's your responsibility to avoid PKers. Once in a while a PKer will join your game and ruin it. True. No denying that. But they have every right to try and kill people in a public game, regardless of your intended goals for that game. As soon as a game is open to the public it is no longer "your" game. It is only yours if it is private. I would agree that PK would be unfair if a) all games were public if the game weren't a highly PvP oriented game. However D2 does not fall under either of those categories. I think this is a perfectly fair system, and D3 should adopt it.
I agree, sometimes the duel is over before it began because the PKer is stronger than you, so you just have to end up leaving the game or waiting it out. But just because someone can potentially be too strong for you does not mean they should be denied the ability to compete with you. Are you saying that PKing would be OK if the PKer is not very strong?
by the way, I'm done here for a little while... maybe i'll come back in a couple days and see how this is moving along.
That would be fine, except it's not a PvP environment, it was intended to be a cooperative environment that benefited people in terms of loot. It evolved into a PvP environment when PKing got out of hand.
I'm trying to understand what you're saying, but I just can't agree.
In DII, it took me eons to find a game which everybody actually cooperated as a team to conquer the game. No rushing, no trading, no lazy weak player that forces you to do all the work, but mutual cooperation. I pray that you may understand how rare this is.
And what happens then? A PKer marauds in, and KABLOOEY!
GAME OVER MAN.
Ugh.
That's a really good point. I want to be able to enjoy a even leveled cooperative game play. That was insanely hard to find in D2, it was all rushes pretty much.
Fact is, PK is about killing. Nobody is stupid enough to pick a fight that they can't win. And if they are, then it's there own fault. But for those of us who get picked on at 12 by the 97, it's not fair nor is it right nor is it what Diablo 2 was designed for. PvP is fun, and it's part of D2, but PK is about picking on people weaker then you and getting jollies from it. Diablo 2 isn't about picking on people, and from what I understand, Diablo 3 is about cooperation, not picking on people.
Then again, that's just how I see it. maybe if I was one of the few PK'ers then I'd see it differently. See the fun of killing all those level 12's. The joy in ruining the game for everyone else. Make myself feel manly by making little kids cry that there HC character just died.
On a side note: Say you joined a game and it's your first game. You make it public, hoping to make some friends online. Is it your fault that you made it public and got killed the moment you hit level 9? (That's why the Diablo 2 world is shrinking. Scaring people away.)