In that case, the influence of luck is so high, that it will influence the leaderboards. Now poeple complain that some hundred paragon levels influence the leaderboards too much. How much influence would runewords have, if they are desirable enough that players still desperately want them after player for 1300PL?
The problem is not paragon levels just people think they would be top leader boards if there was no paragon levels, maybe they would but the larger problem is people want to be #1 player while been a week-end warrior.
Also the problem with D3 1.0 look was not the luck it was when ur item dropped say for a barb, it had bloody Dex/Int on it making it 100% useless, with loot 2.0 adding so new gear slots that make maxing out ur take longer would not be a problem with loot 2.0.
There is nothing much good in the game in runewords for them to be useful, no hit recovery or cast rate dmg goes to mana and all those peculiar and incredible things that made diablo 2 cool. For RW to be introduced in this game, the game it self needs come changes. Not to mention the dmg is weapon based.
This is a really good post.
Runewords in d2 were made by socketed items and interesting combinations of various affixes. In D3 we miss first of all the socketed items - only chest has 3 sockets meaning it's the only actual piece of gear that could have a decent runewords system on; maybe we could extend them for pants but two sockets only narrows the selection by a lot.
Second and equally important, the streamlined affixes made much easier to choose between what's good and bad, and it's usually dictated by the sets/builds. What can possibly add a runeword - more CHD/CHC/CDR?
Yes, they can work over some nice special affixes, but they could simpy make a new legendary item giving an additional choice (if powerful enough) instead of another mandatory gearing strategy.
TY sire. Actually they could make some combo with gems with add effects. Like: 3 sock armor, bane+stricken+pain= added slow or resist slow + xx% dot to ur attack and +xx% to dmg. This can be added as they add more unique gems.
TY sire. Actually they could make some combo with gems with add effects. Like: 3 sock armor, bane+stricken+pain= added slow or resist slow + xx% dot to ur attack and +xx% to dmg. This can be added as they add more unique gems.
Sure, that would work.
The main issue is that this way instead of providing additional goals to achieve in game, we will only have a medium term goal searching for the "right" combination of gems.
Unfortunately this is not due by the lack of mechanics and stuff like that, but by the itemization system which cannot be redone top up.
Side note: Blizzard already tried to "spice up" the crafting system with special reagents and targeted farming/unique drops, and it has been welcomed very badly by the playerbase, to the point they completely removed it. Crafting could be used as a medium to the implementation of "runewords", but the farming trip needs to be tuned correctly and rewards needs to be at set level.
Imho due to the introduction of the LoN set, they could add some crafted special items that synergize well with is as LoN works with legendaries. Just my 2 cents.
In my head it was a combination of 2 or 3 runes that may or may not add effects themselves but do add a legendary-like effect or a non-mainstat boost in a runeword.
Things like "spawn an additional copy of each pet you control" "attack speed increased by 25%" I don't really know I'm not a game developer but something else to add to build diversity would be fun, and more end-game goals.
And what we will continue to get are better sets for higher gr with each patch
That is a lie, because if you seen the ptr patches u would see blizzard is nerfng sets to keep them all in line with each other and making sure u can't clear higher GR just because of new better sets. So I would ask you use facts and not make up information kk. Yes people will clear higher GR in 2.4 but not because of sets, it will because of the health changes to solo players, and the new cube pattern which will give a lot of INT/STR/DEX, WHICH! if people did not work out will make paragon levels overall weaker in the long term.
TY sire. Actually they could make some combo with gems with add effects. Like: 3 sock armor, bane+stricken+pain= added slow or resist slow + xx% dot to ur attack and +xx% to dmg. This can be added as they add more unique gems.
Sure, that would work.
The main issue is that this way instead of providing additional goals to achieve in game, we will only have a medium term goal searching for the "right" combination of gems.
Unfortunately this is not due by the lack of mechanics and stuff like that, but by the itemization system which cannot be redone top up.
Side note: Blizzard already tried to "spice up" the crafting system with special reagents and targeted farming/unique drops, and it has been welcomed very badly by the playerbase, to the point they completely removed it. Crafting could be used as a medium to the implementation of "runewords", but the farming trip needs to be tuned correctly and rewards needs to be at set level.
Imho due to the introduction of the LoN set, they could add some crafted special items that synergize well with is as LoN works with legendaries. Just my 2 cents.
Yes, just runeworkin rank 1 gems would be mid game, BUT upgrading to max effects like they are doing now, will be another way to use the "end" game grift. Start the RW rank1 like 2%, rank5 6% and so on. Still i dont like this way, it too much nolifer, but better than RNG.
2) There was a long term goal that players could work toward while farming.
This is exacly what D3 needs, currently everyone plays for few weeks since start of season/patch and after that theres nothin'g to do if u aren't super hardcore and not going for top 10 gr ladder.
We need more interesting ways to improve that aren't 100% luck based (no, flat main stat increase isn't interesting) and need more variety in games, mby some weekly challenges mby some gr alternatives.
What long term goal are you referring to? D2 never had one, it never needed one. I wish people would understand what the Hack and Slash Genre is. You farm to mix/max your character and push yourself and that's pretty much it. The end game is what YOU make of it. D2 received very small patches throughout its lifetime so compared to Diablo 3 they've gone above and beyond improving this game when they really don't need to at all anymore. I was a huge critic of this game when it shipped because it was garage and terribly imbalanced but they've made tons of great changes. The game does need a viable form of PVP or world PVP where you can just go outside of town and duel. That is the ''end game'' people wanted in diablo 2. You got leveled up min/maxed your gear and PVP'd and that was that.
What long term goal are you referring to? D2 never had one, it never needed one. I wish people would understand what the Hack and Slash Genre is. You farm to mix/max your character and push yourself and that's pretty much it. The end game is what YOU make of it. D2 received very small patches throughout its lifetime so compared to Diablo 3 they've gone above and beyond improving this game when they really don't need to at all anymore. I was a huge critic of this game when it shipped because it was garage and terribly imbalanced but they've made tons of great changes. The game does need a viable form of PVP or world PVP where you can just go outside of town and duel. That is the ''end game'' people wanted in diablo 2. You got leveled up min/maxed your gear and PVP'd and that was that.
D2 totally did. Did you ever try making a rune word without trading for all of the duped runes floating around? It was a long term goal to try to gather the runes needed to create the RW you desired. But, since there were ways to always be working toward that goal (countess runes, hell forge ,the pit, etc), you could make progress on it steadily.
Paragon and legendary gems are attempts at this, but at least to me, they don't feel like quite enough. Just because they've done well at improving the game from launch doesn't mean there isn't more that can be done, even if it comes via another expansion.
Also, as with everything, sweeping statements lend don't strengthen an argument. Things like, "That is the ''end game'' people wanted in diablo 2. You got leveled up min/maxed your gear and PVP'd and that was that." While that was true for some people, there are also plenty of people who never touched PVP in D2 and still managed to play it quite a bit. There is no one "right" way to play the game.
OMG! My favorite build isn't strong enough! I want it to be more competitive with that other build. Why is that build stronger than me? What? They nerfed that build so it isn't as strong anymore? I hate that! I want, they should, we can't ....
Reading these types 'suggestion' threads, it plain to see, some people just like to bitch. Are there things I think would be cool to get, see, have, try? Sure. But I play because it is fun, and I enjoy it. If the joy has gone from this game for you, play a different game, there are many available to you.
OMG! My favorite build isn't strong enough! I want it to be more competitive with that other build. Why is that build stronger than me? What? They nerfed that build so it isn't as strong anymore? I hate that! I want, they should, we can't ....
Reading these types 'suggestion' threads, it plain to see, some people just like to bitch. Are there things I think would be cool to get, see, have, try? Sure. But I play because it is fun, and I enjoy it. If the joy has gone from this game for you, play a different game, there are many available to you.
While I agree that at times, posts can just be a chance to bitch about literally anything, and also that the title of this thread is a bit on the obnoxious side, as it's nothing about what this game "needs" is "pretty obvious", suggesting/theorizing ways to make the game even better than it currently is has tons of value.
One can like the game and enjoy it for what it currently is, and desire for it to be better and more entertaining. It's not a binary thing where you either think the game is perfect or have lost all joy in it. There are lots of ways to improve the game, particularly without basically making it a completely different game, and player's trying to suggest ways to do that should be encouraged.
What long term goal are you referring to? D2 never had one, it never needed one. I wish people would understand what the Hack and Slash Genre is. You farm to mix/max your character and push yourself and that's pretty much it. The end game is what YOU make of it. D2 received very small patches throughout its lifetime so compared to Diablo 3 they've gone above and beyond improving this game when they really don't need to at all anymore. I was a huge critic of this game when it shipped because it was garage and terribly imbalanced but they've made tons of great changes. The game does need a viable form of PVP or world PVP where you can just go outside of town and duel. That is the ''end game'' people wanted in diablo 2. You got leveled up min/maxed your gear and PVP'd and that was that.
D2 totally did. Did you ever try making a rune word without trading for all of the duped runes floating around? It was a long term goal to try to gather the runes needed to create the RW you desired. But, since there were ways to always be working toward that goal (countess runes, hell forge ,the pit, etc), you could make progress on it steadily.
Paragon and legendary gems are attempts at this, but at least to me, they don't feel like quite enough. Just because they've done well at improving the game from launch doesn't mean there isn't more that can be done, even if it comes via another expansion.
Also, as with everything, sweeping statements lend don't strengthen an argument. Things like, "That is the ''end game'' people wanted in diablo 2. You got leveled up min/maxed your gear and PVP'd and that was that." While that was true for some people, there are also plenty of people who never touched PVP in D2 and still managed to play it quite a bit. There is no one "right" way to play the game.
Okay so you just said that hunting for items (runes) was end game. So
substitute that rune for whatever ancient item of your set piece of
have..and its now the same argument. Min/maxing your character for the
best possible setup is the end game. You've just given me the exact
same scenario but in diablo 2 terms..both are exactly interchangeable so
what are you trying to argue? As far as my statement about PVP, okay
PVP aside, you min-maxed your character to destroy PVE and that was the
"End game". Your argument literally makes zero sense because again as I stated, the end game for people is what YOU make of it.
Okay so you just said that hunting for items (runes) was end game. So
substitute that rune for whatever ancient item of your set piece of
have..and its now the same argument. Min/maxing your character for the
best possible setup is the end game. You've just given me the exact
same scenario but in diablo 2 terms..both are exactly interchangeable so
what are you trying to argue? As far as my statement about PVP, okay
PVP aside, you min-maxed your character to destroy PVE and that was the
"End game". Your argument literally makes zero sense because again as I stated, the end game for people is what YOU make of it.
Except rune words weren't simple min-maxing. With Ancient items, your simply getting a little bit more of a couple of stats. It's a very generic and boring way to min-max. it's true that in an ARPG there will eventually be some of this, and that's fine. The problem is the journey.
What runewords did in D2, and what I'd like to see in D3 in some form, is a long term investment that isn't just a little extra raw damage on my weapon, or some extra character stats (str, vit, etc). I'd like to see some of the more powerful affixes that influence gameplay put here, so that you gather items and do everything you do now, while also slowly working towards an item or 2 that influence gameplay even more. The biggest difference between this and ancients, is that you don't work toward ancients, you just wait until they drop. What I liked about runes words (and again the new long term system doesn't need to copy that concept exactly), is that while I was getting rares and uniques that could help me achieve a build (or make it stronger/easier to play), I could also pick up runes and work toward a RW that complemented things.
What I feel like D3 lacks is something that complements the hunt for ancients. Something else to be doing. Paragon is pretty boring and just gives flat stat benefits, and leg gems after 25 are just incremental increases in their powers. Those systems are nice and all, but adding in another system that gives players something to build over time, rather than waiting for a single drop your waiting for any decent "rune" or whatever to drop, so that you can work toward this RW you want. This seemed to be what they were doing with sets for a while, when they made them more rare, and you could slowly build toward the set build, but before they revamped all of the sets and made them worth slowly building, they made them extremely easy to obtain.
Ultimately the idea is to add systems that complement decisions they've already made, but elongate that middle period where you are in the "end-game" but aren't hunting for a better ancient to min-max a bit more. Right now, the game becomes that very quickly, and then it's easy to get bored after 100 hours and not finding an upgrade for your build. Obviously what I'm asking for is just kicking that can down the road a bit, but eventually an H&S game will come down to small incremental upgrades like the end game is now. I'm hoping to make the journey to that a little longer, and more interesting is all.
What long term goal are you referring to? D2 never had one, it never needed one.
I agree that it didn't need one, because farming the gear was already THE one. Being the min/maxing so hard to achieve and so slow to progress (without trading) it gave by itself a long term goal to everyone. D2 was the epitome of farming as you well said in your post.
I also agree that D3 is receiving a lot of improvements via patches and nice features/new meta games.
The point is that while you could play D2 for a long time continuosly without anything of this sort you cannot do so in D3. Item hunt is basically non existant, as build are redefined by item sets, and you can tailor your drops in multiple ways (cube/blood shards). Getting fully geared is really easy and it's a matter of hours.
Yes, the long term goal is pushing high GR atm. But a) it works only for a handful of builds and people tend to pidgeonhole into the "best ones" and after a certain short threshold it becomes more paragon related than gear related.
The problem currently with D3 is that we're not farming for for items, but farming for levels. Farming will be always famring and there will be always the beast way to do so, but the goal should be related to how we want to play and not how much powerful we are.
LoN set is actually the potentially best thing of 2.4. Cannot wait for them to hit live.
What long term goal are you referring to? D2 never had one, it never needed one.
I agree that it didn't need one, because farming the gear was already THE one. Being the min/maxing so hard to achieve and so slow to progress (without trading) it gave by itself a long term goal to everyone. D2 was the epitome of farming as you well said in your post.
I also agree that D3 is receiving a lot of improvements via patches and nice features/new meta games.
The point is that while you could play D2 for a long time continuosly without anything of this sort you cannot do so in D3. Item hunt is basically non existant, as build are redefined by item sets, and you can tailor your drops in multiple ways (cube/blood shards). Getting fully geared is really easy and it's a matter of hours.
Yes, the long term goal is pushing high GR atm. But a) it works only for a handful of builds and people tend to pidgeonhole into the "best ones" and after a certain short threshold it becomes more paragon related than gear related.
The problem currently with D3 is that we're not farming for for items, but farming for levels. Farming will be always famring and there will be always the beast way to do so, but the goal should be related to how we want to play and not how much powerful we are.
LoN set is actually the potentially best thing of 2.4. Cannot wait for them to hit live.
People will always be unsatisfied, and you are the perfect example.
No matter how many updates and upgrades Diablo 3 will go through, there will always be someone like you who will be crying for more of this and more of that.
Do you even remember what Diablo 3 vanila was looked like?
Think about how much the game shifted and changed since then. It's pretty amazing.
Diablo 2 never went through such work, it pretty much stayed as it lunched, content wise.
So stop being so spoiled, and let the updates keep coming and enjoy every moment, and if you happen to be discontent, go play PoE.
The problem is not paragon levels just people think they would be top leader boards if there was no paragon levels, maybe they would but the larger problem is people want to be #1 player while been a week-end warrior.
Also the problem with D3 1.0 look was not the luck it was when ur item dropped say for a barb, it had bloody Dex/Int on it making it 100% useless, with loot 2.0 adding so new gear slots that make maxing out ur take longer would not be a problem with loot 2.0.
The main issue is that this way instead of providing additional goals to achieve in game, we will only have a medium term goal searching for the "right" combination of gems.
Unfortunately this is not due by the lack of mechanics and stuff like that, but by the itemization system which cannot be redone top up.
Side note: Blizzard already tried to "spice up" the crafting system with special reagents and targeted farming/unique drops, and it has been welcomed very badly by the playerbase, to the point they completely removed it. Crafting could be used as a medium to the implementation of "runewords", but the farming trip needs to be tuned correctly and rewards needs to be at set level.
Imho due to the introduction of the LoN set, they could add some crafted special items that synergize well with is as LoN works with legendaries. Just my 2 cents.
In my head it was a combination of 2 or 3 runes that may or may not add effects themselves but do add a legendary-like effect or a non-mainstat boost in a runeword.
Things like "spawn an additional copy of each pet you control" "attack speed increased by 25%" I don't really know I'm not a game developer but something else to add to build diversity would be fun, and more end-game goals.
2 new classes that is not a train wreck like crusader and we are good to go.
Paragon and legendary gems are attempts at this, but at least to me, they don't feel like quite enough. Just because they've done well at improving the game from launch doesn't mean there isn't more that can be done, even if it comes via another expansion.
Also, as with everything, sweeping statements lend don't strengthen an argument. Things like, "That is the ''end game'' people wanted in diablo 2. You got leveled up min/maxed your gear and PVP'd and that was that." While that was true for some people, there are also plenty of people who never touched PVP in D2 and still managed to play it quite a bit. There is no one "right" way to play the game.
OMG! My favorite build isn't strong enough! I want it to be more competitive with that other build. Why is that build stronger than me? What? They nerfed that build so it isn't as strong anymore? I hate that! I want, they should, we can't ....
Reading these types 'suggestion' threads, it plain to see, some people just like to bitch. Are there things I think would be cool to get, see, have, try? Sure. But I play because it is fun, and I enjoy it. If the joy has gone from this game for you, play a different game, there are many available to you.
One can like the game and enjoy it for what it currently is, and desire for it to be better and more entertaining. It's not a binary thing where you either think the game is perfect or have lost all joy in it. There are lots of ways to improve the game, particularly without basically making it a completely different game, and player's trying to suggest ways to do that should be encouraged.
Okay so you just said that hunting for items (runes) was end game. So
substitute that rune for whatever ancient item of your set piece of
have..and its now the same argument. Min/maxing your character for the
best possible setup is the end game. You've just given me the exact
same scenario but in diablo 2 terms..both are exactly interchangeable so
what are you trying to argue? As far as my statement about PVP, okay
PVP aside, you min-maxed your character to destroy PVE and that was the
"End game". Your argument literally makes zero sense because again as I stated, the end game for people is what YOU make of it.
What runewords did in D2, and what I'd like to see in D3 in some form, is a long term investment that isn't just a little extra raw damage on my weapon, or some extra character stats (str, vit, etc). I'd like to see some of the more powerful affixes that influence gameplay put here, so that you gather items and do everything you do now, while also slowly working towards an item or 2 that influence gameplay even more. The biggest difference between this and ancients, is that you don't work toward ancients, you just wait until they drop. What I liked about runes words (and again the new long term system doesn't need to copy that concept exactly), is that while I was getting rares and uniques that could help me achieve a build (or make it stronger/easier to play), I could also pick up runes and work toward a RW that complemented things.
What I feel like D3 lacks is something that complements the hunt for ancients. Something else to be doing. Paragon is pretty boring and just gives flat stat benefits, and leg gems after 25 are just incremental increases in their powers. Those systems are nice and all, but adding in another system that gives players something to build over time, rather than waiting for a single drop your waiting for any decent "rune" or whatever to drop, so that you can work toward this RW you want. This seemed to be what they were doing with sets for a while, when they made them more rare, and you could slowly build toward the set build, but before they revamped all of the sets and made them worth slowly building, they made them extremely easy to obtain.
Ultimately the idea is to add systems that complement decisions they've already made, but elongate that middle period where you are in the "end-game" but aren't hunting for a better ancient to min-max a bit more. Right now, the game becomes that very quickly, and then it's easy to get bored after 100 hours and not finding an upgrade for your build. Obviously what I'm asking for is just kicking that can down the road a bit, but eventually an H&S game will come down to small incremental upgrades like the end game is now. I'm hoping to make the journey to that a little longer, and more interesting is all.
I also agree that D3 is receiving a lot of improvements via patches and nice features/new meta games.
The point is that while you could play D2 for a long time continuosly without anything of this sort you cannot do so in D3. Item hunt is basically non existant, as build are redefined by item sets, and you can tailor your drops in multiple ways (cube/blood shards). Getting fully geared is really easy and it's a matter of hours.
Yes, the long term goal is pushing high GR atm. But a) it works only for a handful of builds and people tend to pidgeonhole into the "best ones" and after a certain short threshold it becomes more paragon related than gear related.
The problem currently with D3 is that we're not farming for for items, but farming for levels. Farming will be always famring and there will be always the beast way to do so, but the goal should be related to how we want to play and not how much powerful we are.
LoN set is actually the potentially best thing of 2.4. Cannot wait for them to hit live.
People will always be unsatisfied, and you are the perfect example.
No matter how many updates and upgrades Diablo 3 will go through, there will always be someone like you who will be crying for more of this and more of that.
Do you even remember what Diablo 3 vanila was looked like?
Think about how much the game shifted and changed since then. It's pretty amazing.
Diablo 2 never went through such work, it pretty much stayed as it lunched, content wise.
So stop being so spoiled, and let the updates keep coming and enjoy every moment, and if you happen to be discontent, go play PoE.
the game needs a cap to pl and much more viable builds.
if some players really need "competition, make grifts gear and skill based, not just 4zero pl/gazilion exp.
--- Kev ---
Be nice to see Runewords implemented (to augment skills) in a way that it can be applied to gear via Kanai Cube.