There are a few very old (1 yr) threads here about this, but I was interested in a discussion of it, and didn't think necromancing the old ones was appropriate.
It looks like Bashiok said in an interview with incgamers that:
Well, health and mana leach may not come back. There's balance issues, and they may not make it into Diablo III
I have mixed feelings on this. In D2, life leach was absolutely mandatory for almost any melee character to have a chance in hell. Without it you just get torn to pieces. This wasn't the most fun part of the game, but it actually doesn't work all too poorly. In D1, it was far more optional, and only served to lesson your dependency on the pots. I much preferred how it worked in D1 to D2.
I'm pretty enamored with the idea of stealing life from your foes. It is just such a cool concept. It really adds to the whole "hero" feeling, where not only do you smash many times your number of foes, but you increase your power from their lifeforce. I hope it makes a comeback in D3, but more of an optional stat that is just kind of fun to play around with.
I don't believe there is to much of a balancing issue with life leach. The only problem with diablo 2 is that people would have 5% and do thousands of damage a hit keeping their life up constantly. I remember playing Barb vs Barb duels and the fights would last for sometimes 10 minutes because both Barbs would keep getting healed. Blizzard could cap the amount of life gained per second but life leach is not really needed in the game. In diablo 2 it did make the game a lot harder but in diablo 3 the game could be completely designed around not using life leach at all.
Make life leach number based, not percentage based, problem solved...
Equinox, there are problems with that too. Now those with faster attacking weapon speeds with number based life leach would be getting more health than a slower but more powerful weapon.
Blizzard should do as they said a year ago, and not put it in.
Leech is probably not needed.. we should rather use some protective skills to prevent damage and also we have the globes ..
Why?
I though the utility of a item modifier is to add diversity to the game, so if any mod is not too strong to replace all others or not to weak to be ignored, it definetly is usefull and needed.
For exemple, some people may choose to survive by stacking alot of defence to save HP until a globe drop. Other may invest in damage so they will kill stuff faster, decreasing the HP lost until a globe drop. Other could use lifesteal to preserv part of the HP until a globe drops. The more options the better.
I don't think lifesteal is excentially imba. Many games have balanced lifesteal mechanics, i can't see why it HAVE to be imba.
Equinox, there are problems with that too. Now those with faster attacking weapon speeds with number based life leach would be getting more health than a slower but more powerful weapon.
Thats pretty simple to resolve.
One form is calculate the lifesteal amount based in the weapon speed. For exemple, when the player use a maul and have lifesteal it gets something like +100% bonus in the aritmethical lifesteal value. In other hand when the player uses a dagger (fast attack speed) and have lifesteal it gets something like -20% penalty in the aritmethical lifesteal value. I know attack speed bonus would still imporve it, but as long is it's balance i don't see the problem.
Another option is put delay im the lifesteal proc. For xemple, the lifesteal can only proc from 5 and 5 seconds, so no matter the speed you hit you only get it in a certain period of time. In this case the attack speed will not modify it.
Equinox, there are problems with that too. Now those with faster attacking weapon speeds with number based life leach would be getting more health than a slower but more powerful weapon.
...and the problem with that is? High speed weapons typically deal less damage, and have other problems.
Leech is just another variable. It's an interesting mechanic and, I believe, should stay. It's especially interesting for low health characters and what not.
Your health and the damage you receive is much more controlled than in D2. The simple fact of adding Leech in the mix complete fuck up the entire balance system and they'd need to do it in a different way.
Your health and the damage you receive is much more controlled than in D2. The simple fact of adding Leech in the mix complete fuck up the entire balance system and they'd need to do it in a different way.
...and? I'm sorry, this is what professional game developers are for: to solve complex problems. Stop giving them slack.
...and? I'm sorry, this is what professional game developers are for: to solve complex problems. Stop giving them slack.
This isn't just the point. A completely different balance wouldn't necessarily be good. In my opinion, D2 is completely broken and the role leeching plays is too big, not because its necessary, but simply because its always going to give health on all hits (and we know how much that is in D2).
Of course, they could also make it so meaninglessly weak that no one would take it, but then thats not useful either. In "my" opinion, the effect it must have on the balance is not welcome in the game and is better left out.
What point? That this is too hard for a huge company with 12 million players paying $15 a month to solve?
No i's not.
Really we don't know if they will implement it or not, don't know if it's a balance issue or something else, don't know even know the mechanics of the game to assume that leech will totally destroy the balance of everything.
As said before in this topic, life steal was present in D1 and 100% balanced there. It didin't saved you all the time nor it was absolutly excential to a warrior but it was very usefull. There are other games out there with leech or similar mechanics and it works fine.
Thats pretty simple to resolve.
One form is calculate the lifesteal amount based in the weapon speed. For exemple, when the player use a maul and have lifesteal it gets something like +100% bonus in the aritmethical lifesteal value. In other hand when the player uses a dagger (fast attack speed) and have lifesteal it gets something like -20% penalty in the aritmethical lifesteal value. I know attack speed bonus would still imporve it, but as long is it's balance i don't see the problem.
Another option is put delay im the lifesteal proc. For xemple, the lifesteal can only proc from 5 and 5 seconds, so no matter the speed you hit you only get it in a certain period of time. In this case the attack speed will not modify it.
I think you hit on a good idea with your first point. Having your life stealing capabilities scale with weapon speed would be a good idea. However, what if it is changed to be a percentage of your HP that is stolen, not of the damage you deal? That would make balancing it much easier, and would even be easier to balance that fixed amounts of life stolen.
The delay idea.... I really don't like it. It would be a mix of too complicated or underpowered to have it on an internal cooldown. It is much simplier to have it be on every hit, but for very small amounts. Life Stealing shouldn't make or break your character, what it should do is add a little flavor to the gameplay.
What I would like to see Life stealing turn into, is it steals ~1-2% of your total hp each hit (Possibly less than 1% if attacks are really fast, or even scale the % to your attack speed) and to keep it to High end or "Rare" gear. That should keep it a pretty interesting but non mandatory item mod.
Well have the amount of life leached be a percent, however have a number cap, like say at max can only leach 1000 life, but each hit would be a percent of 1000.
Health orbs are the new life leach. It's the exact same mechanic, except a little more pro-active on the side of the player instead of passively gaining health all the time. Imo it's better.
It adds more thinking and action to the game. Instead of having the knowledge that you will get a certain amount of life back and live versus the uncertainty of a life orb drop that will mean life or death... It's kind of obvious why Blizzard would not add life leach,
They could add both. Why not?
Gameplay wise they are different. With life leach you don't have to defeat your enemy to regain the health, wich means it can be used as a survival methoed just like evasions%, defence, block... I'm 100% against a lifeleach strong enough to overcome the damage taken, but a lifeleach that allows the player just to rpevent big life loss.
Increase the drop rate and effect of Health Orbs only effect the player after defeating a enemy, wich means it can't be used as survival method in avarage or long fights (expecially PvP). It only helps your survavility in zerg gauntlets. It also helps you catch some breath to the next fight but not the fight you're fighting in the moment.
And please don't come with this bullshit that in Diablo is a fast paced hn's blablabla and all monsters are tiny bitchs that die with one hit because it's NOT. The 1000 pounder and the siegebreaker are not even quest boss, they are normal monsters that will appear just like any other monster and killing then will be surely SLOW.
They could add both. Why not?
Gameplay wise they are different. With life leach you don't have to defeat your enemy to regain the health, wich means it can be used as a survival methoed just like evasions%, defence, block... I'm 100% against a lifeleach strong enough to overcome the damage taken, but a lifeleach that allows the player just to rpevent big life loss.
Increase the drop rate and effect of Health Orbs only effect the player after defeating a enemy, wich means it can't be used as survival method in avarage or long fights (expecially PvP). It only helps your survavility in zerg gauntlets. It also helps you catch some breath to the next fight but not the fight you're fighting in the moment.
And please don't come with this bullshit that in Diablo is a fast paced hn's blablabla and all monsters are tiny bitchs that die with one hit because it's NOT. The 1000 pounder and the siegebreaker are not even quest boss, they are normal monsters that will appear just like any other monster and killing then will be surely SLOW.
I think Blizzard mentioned that during hard bosses they would feed the fight with smaller monsters to both harden the fight and to give an opporunity for orb drops. I think it will fix the long fight problem.
Not that I dont like life leech, but im just not in a position to tell whether it's going to be good or not in D3. I think however that life leech will remove strategy from the game in some way unless it's very well balanced. Most people will find a way to abuse it and just go toe to toe with large monsters without having to dodge. Just stand and bash and life leech will keep them alive. I much would prefer tough fights that require strategy, dodging and wise skill usage.
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Diablo 3, Hottest shit to happen to 21st Century Entertainment since Georges "Rush" St-Pierre.______________ --------~~Mattheo's Quote of the day~~---------
----------Brought to you by Diablofans.com Forums -------- Originally Posted by mattheo_majik
I LOVE being a SEX TON!!!
I think Blizzard mentioned that during hard bosses they would feed the fight with smaller monsters to both harden the fight and to give an opporunity for orb drops. I think it will fix the long fight problem.
Again the siege breaker and the 1000 pounder are not hard bosses, they are not even bosses. And theres also avarage size monster like the unburied.
And it's not a matter of "fix a problem"... Why the reason of existence of everything must be remove a possible negative aspect of the game? Why not put something in the game simply because it's fun even if theres not a ultimate "necessity" of it?
The more item modifiers we have, the more we can customise our characters. The more the better!
Not that I dont like life leech, but im just not in a position to tell whether it's going to be good or not in D3. I think however that life leech will remove strategy from the game in some way unless it's very well balanced. Most people will find a way to abuse it and just go toe to toe with large monsters without having to dodge. Just stand and bash and life leech will keep them alive.
Anything that is not very well balanced remove strategy from the game. Overpowered evasion would make your character unbeatable, so they should not put evasion in the game ? The problem is not what the items can do, but how much they can do.
People will only abuse it if it's overpowered. The possibility of leech HP to a point that the monster can't kill you is ridicolous, only very newbie designers would let that happen, wich is not the case.
I much would prefer tough fights that require strategy, dodging and wise skill usage.
I really want that too!
But lifeleech not necesserely breaks strategy and the other good stuff you mentioned. It's only one more option of how the player can choose how his character will survive.
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Faded out her voice and soiled her name
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It looks like Bashiok said in an interview with incgamers that:
I have mixed feelings on this. In D2, life leach was absolutely mandatory for almost any melee character to have a chance in hell. Without it you just get torn to pieces. This wasn't the most fun part of the game, but it actually doesn't work all too poorly. In D1, it was far more optional, and only served to lesson your dependency on the pots. I much preferred how it worked in D1 to D2.
I'm pretty enamored with the idea of stealing life from your foes. It is just such a cool concept. It really adds to the whole "hero" feeling, where not only do you smash many times your number of foes, but you increase your power from their lifeforce. I hope it makes a comeback in D3, but more of an optional stat that is just kind of fun to play around with.
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
Equinox, there are problems with that too. Now those with faster attacking weapon speeds with number based life leach would be getting more health than a slower but more powerful weapon.
Blizzard should do as they said a year ago, and not put it in.
Why?
I though the utility of a item modifier is to add diversity to the game, so if any mod is not too strong to replace all others or not to weak to be ignored, it definetly is usefull and needed.
For exemple, some people may choose to survive by stacking alot of defence to save HP until a globe drop. Other may invest in damage so they will kill stuff faster, decreasing the HP lost until a globe drop. Other could use lifesteal to preserv part of the HP until a globe drops. The more options the better.
I don't think lifesteal is excentially imba. Many games have balanced lifesteal mechanics, i can't see why it HAVE to be imba.
Thats pretty simple to resolve.
One form is calculate the lifesteal amount based in the weapon speed. For exemple, when the player use a maul and have lifesteal it gets something like +100% bonus in the aritmethical lifesteal value. In other hand when the player uses a dagger (fast attack speed) and have lifesteal it gets something like -20% penalty in the aritmethical lifesteal value. I know attack speed bonus would still imporve it, but as long is it's balance i don't see the problem.
Another option is put delay im the lifesteal proc. For xemple, the lifesteal can only proc from 5 and 5 seconds, so no matter the speed you hit you only get it in a certain period of time. In this case the attack speed will not modify it.
Leech is just another variable. It's an interesting mechanic and, I believe, should stay. It's especially interesting for low health characters and what not.
Seriously, they're getting lazy.
This isn't just the point. A completely different balance wouldn't necessarily be good. In my opinion, D2 is completely broken and the role leeching plays is too big, not because its necessary, but simply because its always going to give health on all hits (and we know how much that is in D2).
Of course, they could also make it so meaninglessly weak that no one would take it, but then thats not useful either. In "my" opinion, the effect it must have on the balance is not welcome in the game and is better left out.
Thanks for completely ignoring my point.
No i's not.
Really we don't know if they will implement it or not, don't know if it's a balance issue or something else, don't know even know the mechanics of the game to assume that leech will totally destroy the balance of everything.
As said before in this topic, life steal was present in D1 and 100% balanced there. It didin't saved you all the time nor it was absolutly excential to a warrior but it was very usefull. There are other games out there with leech or similar mechanics and it works fine.
I think you hit on a good idea with your first point. Having your life stealing capabilities scale with weapon speed would be a good idea. However, what if it is changed to be a percentage of your HP that is stolen, not of the damage you deal? That would make balancing it much easier, and would even be easier to balance that fixed amounts of life stolen.
The delay idea.... I really don't like it. It would be a mix of too complicated or underpowered to have it on an internal cooldown. It is much simplier to have it be on every hit, but for very small amounts. Life Stealing shouldn't make or break your character, what it should do is add a little flavor to the gameplay.
What I would like to see Life stealing turn into, is it steals ~1-2% of your total hp each hit (Possibly less than 1% if attacks are really fast, or even scale the % to your attack speed) and to keep it to High end or "Rare" gear. That should keep it a pretty interesting but non mandatory item mod.
It adds more thinking and action to the game. Instead of having the knowledge that you will get a certain amount of life back and live versus the uncertainty of a life orb drop that will mean life or death... It's kind of obvious why Blizzard would not add life leach,
DESPITE how EASY it is eh Equinox?
Gameplay wise they are different. With life leach you don't have to defeat your enemy to regain the health, wich means it can be used as a survival methoed just like evasions%, defence, block... I'm 100% against a lifeleach strong enough to overcome the damage taken, but a lifeleach that allows the player just to rpevent big life loss.
Increase the drop rate and effect of Health Orbs only effect the player after defeating a enemy, wich means it can't be used as survival method in avarage or long fights (expecially PvP). It only helps your survavility in zerg gauntlets. It also helps you catch some breath to the next fight but not the fight you're fighting in the moment.
And please don't come with this bullshit that in Diablo is a fast paced hn's blablabla and all monsters are tiny bitchs that die with one hit because it's NOT. The 1000 pounder and the siegebreaker are not even quest boss, they are normal monsters that will appear just like any other monster and killing then will be surely SLOW.
I think Blizzard mentioned that during hard bosses they would feed the fight with smaller monsters to both harden the fight and to give an opporunity for orb drops. I think it will fix the long fight problem.
Not that I dont like life leech, but im just not in a position to tell whether it's going to be good or not in D3. I think however that life leech will remove strategy from the game in some way unless it's very well balanced. Most people will find a way to abuse it and just go toe to toe with large monsters without having to dodge. Just stand and bash and life leech will keep them alive. I much would prefer tough fights that require strategy, dodging and wise skill usage.
--------~~Mattheo's Quote of the day~~---------
----------Brought to you by Diablofans.com Forums --------
Originally Posted by mattheo_majik
I LOVE being a SEX TON!!!
And it's not a matter of "fix a problem"... Why the reason of existence of everything must be remove a possible negative aspect of the game? Why not put something in the game simply because it's fun even if theres not a ultimate "necessity" of it?
The more item modifiers we have, the more we can customise our characters. The more the better!
Anything that is not very well balanced remove strategy from the game. Overpowered evasion would make your character unbeatable, so they should not put evasion in the game ? The problem is not what the items can do, but how much they can do.
People will only abuse it if it's overpowered. The possibility of leech HP to a point that the monster can't kill you is ridicolous, only very newbie designers would let that happen, wich is not the case.
I really want that too!
But lifeleech not necesserely breaks strategy and the other good stuff you mentioned. It's only one more option of how the player can choose how his character will survive.