From my experience watching the patching and stuff of D2 over the last 10 or so years, it has become increasingly apparent that Blizzard doesn't want the game and levels to be too easy. Therefore I think they are going to implement a significant change to boss characters on hell difficulty in D3.
In order to aspire to the difficulty that such creatures should actually pose, I feel that D3 is going to include some type of level based setup to their act bosses in hell. Normal and nightmare I think will remain standard, but I think they may play with it in Hell.
Ex: Using act bosses from D2 I think it might flow something like this.
Boss Minimum Level Level Difference
Andariel 70 +7
Duriel 75 +8
Mephisto 80 +10
Diablo 85 +12
Baal 90 +15
As you can see in this setup each boss would have a set minimum level and above that they would have a set level bonus dependent on the highest level character in the game. So therefore, if you are playing Andariel with a level 90 and a bunch of lowlevels, Andy's level for that game would be 97. If it was Ball it would be 105. I think this would be a good way to make sure that even the low level demon boss creatures don't turn into the patsies that Andariel is in D2 LOD for a high level. Even Diablo and Meph aren't too much trouble at higher levels and Baal just takes forever to kill sometimes, but doesn't really threaten you.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]"Fool! You have just ensured the doom of this world. You cannot even begin to imagine what you've set in motion this day. Go to the Temple of Light, in the eastern ciry of Kurast. There you will find the gate to Hell opened before you. You must find the courage to step through that gate Marius. Take the stone you hold to the Hellforge, where it will be destroyed. Now run! Take the stone and run!"
So are you saying that if you are a level 90, but are in a party of seven other players or so below you, then it adds a difficulty level for each member in your party? I kind of understand what you mean, but I'm also trying to see what the difference is between what you are talking about and what they already have in Diablo II.
Personally for me, it not only takes me a long time to kill some bosses, but it is also dangerous cause all my attacks are melee attacks.
Even Diablo and Meph aren't too much trouble at higher levels and Baal just takes forever to kill sometimes, but doesn't really threaten you.
Right. But adding levels won't solve anything as the game currently is. Which, I guess, only means this system would be useless for D2, the only thing it would accomplish would be to increase farming time of Baal from 5 seconds to 7 seconds.
D3 needs a huge overhaul in how boss battles work, primarily in the field of boss scaling coupled with a vastly better AI and more diversity in boss attacks. All of this I'm sure will be included, but taking that into account, the system will probabaly be so changed that we cannot at this point in time guess how to best balance it.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
Siaynog, I play barbs so I am all melee on D2 as well. But the general idea of this system as I see it, is that your character should never be equal to one of the demons. It will have more of an impact on Durial, Andy, Meph, and D then on Baal, but still it is the same idea. If you are level 90 in a solo game, Baal would be level 105, then you would add whatever is added onto that for more players in the game.
Phrozen, I agree the system itself will be overhauled, but there is gonna have to be a different form of scaling the monsters. Andy should always be a challenge, not someone I kill in a few WW when I am level 80.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]"Fool! You have just ensured the doom of this world. You cannot even begin to imagine what you've set in motion this day. Go to the Temple of Light, in the eastern ciry of Kurast. There you will find the gate to Hell opened before you. You must find the courage to step through that gate Marius. Take the stone you hold to the Hellforge, where it will be destroyed. Now run! Take the stone and run!"
Bosses, most definitely need "beefing" up. I like a challenge! Though I think bosses you have killed before would be easy but not super easy.
If I am in act 4 and I go back to act 1 to help a friend kill andy, she should be easy as I did kill her a while ago, but I don't want some click, click, dead battle.
I agree with the scaling, but previously killed bosses should be somewhat easy, but still hard.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
I don't know, I guess I just disagree with that. So you beat them. They are still a demon lord of some such, they should not be a peace of cake to beat. I mean personally I don't think a mortal should be able to just beat down a demon lord of any such. It should always be a challenge. Now the rest of the creatures in an act, I don't think they need to be scaled, except for maybe the last act or 2.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]"Fool! You have just ensured the doom of this world. You cannot even begin to imagine what you've set in motion this day. Go to the Temple of Light, in the eastern ciry of Kurast. There you will find the gate to Hell opened before you. You must find the courage to step through that gate Marius. Take the stone you hold to the Hellforge, where it will be destroyed. Now run! Take the stone and run!"
What if there was like a different AI for every 10 levels? Like if your 87 and fighting baal he will do different things and have different skills and whatnot then if you were 94?
Might be a different (and better?) take on the whole scaling idea...
I don't know, I guess I just disagree with that. So you beat them. They are still a demon lord of some such, they should not be a peace of cake to beat. I mean personally I don't think a mortal should be able to just beat down a demon lord of any such. It should always be a challenge. Now the rest of the creatures in an act, I don't think they need to be scaled, except for maybe the last act or 2.
I was agreeing with you about improving their toughness, but when you go back and fight them they should be easier as you are a higher level, but still be a hard fight.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
-Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth.
But your kind of missing my point in other ways. Does it make sense to you for a mortal on Sanctuary to ever be superior to a demon lord such as Andariel? She will never be equal to Diablo and such, but she still is a force in Hell, and therefore I would think should always be a challenge for your character to face.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]"Fool! You have just ensured the doom of this world. You cannot even begin to imagine what you've set in motion this day. Go to the Temple of Light, in the eastern ciry of Kurast. There you will find the gate to Hell opened before you. You must find the courage to step through that gate Marius. Take the stone you hold to the Hellforge, where it will be destroyed. Now run! Take the stone and run!"
But your kind of missing my point in other ways. Does it make sense to you for a mortal on Sanctuary to ever be superior to a demon lord such as Andariel? She will never be equal to Diablo and such, but she still is a force in Hell, and therefore I would think should always be a challenge for your character to face.
Well, your not exactly a typical mortal either...
What other mortal could push Diablo to hell, not be satisfied, go to hell, kill Diablo, still not be satisfied, go to the worldstone keep, and kill Baal?
yes, but for all intents and purposes you are still a mortal in Sanctuary. Sure you are a champion, but that doesn't mean that you all of a sudden can slay a Demon Lord without breaking a sweat. I am actually surprised at the disagreement with this. Lore wise it makes sense, and for the powergamers, it means vastly more XP.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]"Fool! You have just ensured the doom of this world. You cannot even begin to imagine what you've set in motion this day. Go to the Temple of Light, in the eastern ciry of Kurast. There you will find the gate to Hell opened before you. You must find the courage to step through that gate Marius. Take the stone you hold to the Hellforge, where it will be destroyed. Now run! Take the stone and run!"
Oh I agree, it shouldn't be one ice shard or arrow or sword swing or whatever and they are dead, but it shouldn't be as hard as the first time, either. Like I said, different AI's for different clvl's would be -wonderful-.
I love that idea of different skills and AI's based on your level.
They kind of implement that in lineage 2 raid bosses, where they will silence you (unable to cast magic) if you are too high a level, but thats just so high levels can't kill lower raid bosses on their own, so thats a bit to the extreme.
But your kind of missing my point in other ways. Does it make sense to you for a mortal on Sanctuary to ever be superior to a demon lord such as Andariel? She will never be equal to Diablo and such, but she still is a force in Hell, and therefore I would think should always be a challenge for your character to face.
This is my take on it. Diablo can, at full power, kick so much Andariel ass it's not even funny.
If then, we as the champion, can beat Diablo, one would assume Andariel shouldn't be too tough for us to handle.
From a lore standpoint, I'd say the Three should all be roughly as hard to beat at the same level (though naturally when playing the game you will perhaps encounter Mephisto at lvl 25 but Diablo at 30, so Diablo is more of a challenge the first time.)
The lesser evils though are just that, lesser. They should be more easily beatable.
Of course, from a gameplay view, I can agree with you. Let's say game progression goes like this, the levels indicating when you encounter the boss the first time in the story:
Andariel: lvl 10
Duriel: lvl 20
Diablo: lvl 30
Now in this scenario, Diablo will be much harder than Andariel, because you met her 20 levels ago. But going back and killing her at lvl 30, she herself will have risen in difficulty to face a lvl 30 hero. She could at this point be almost equally as hard to beat as the Lord of Terror himself.
PlugY for Diablo II allows you to reset skills and stats, transfer items between characters in singleplayer, obtain all ladder runewords and do all Uberquests while offline. It is the only way to do all of the above. Please use it.
Supporting big shoulderpads and flashy armor since 2004.
Phrozen--that is kind of where I am going. Yes D and company should always be more of a challenge then the lessers, I just don't think you should be able to 1-hit kill a high level demon just because you are level 85 and they are still level 55.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]"Fool! You have just ensured the doom of this world. You cannot even begin to imagine what you've set in motion this day. Go to the Temple of Light, in the eastern ciry of Kurast. There you will find the gate to Hell opened before you. You must find the courage to step through that gate Marius. Take the stone you hold to the Hellforge, where it will be destroyed. Now run! Take the stone and run!"
I think that making them rather hard and planning on the bosses still being reasonably hard later could cause problems with other acts. If Andy is rather tough so I continue to level and such so I can beat her, won't Act 2 then be complete cake until I get to Baal?
I don't know how A2 could be reasonably difficult without making bosses to easy when you do go back to them later on unless they were just easier the first time for some reason.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The gaming public now has focus on Diablo again, and with it comes the modern-age of trolling and jackassery."
Dynamic scaling like that could be very interesting, maybe make it a percent tho rather than a set value so you do get at least some reward for attaining the max level. That said, I hope they make the bosses much more difficult strategy wise than in previous games. I want to have to think about what I'm doing, not just have to pot at the right time and spam my one most powerful attack.
From the looks of things I think D3 will be much more strategy based, and I really hope it does turn out that way.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
In order to aspire to the difficulty that such creatures should actually pose, I feel that D3 is going to include some type of level based setup to their act bosses in hell. Normal and nightmare I think will remain standard, but I think they may play with it in Hell.
Ex: Using act bosses from D2 I think it might flow something like this.
Boss Minimum Level Level Difference
Andariel 70 +7
Duriel 75 +8
Mephisto 80 +10
Diablo 85 +12
Baal 90 +15
As you can see in this setup each boss would have a set minimum level and above that they would have a set level bonus dependent on the highest level character in the game. So therefore, if you are playing Andariel with a level 90 and a bunch of lowlevels, Andy's level for that game would be 97. If it was Ball it would be 105. I think this would be a good way to make sure that even the low level demon boss creatures don't turn into the patsies that Andariel is in D2 LOD for a high level. Even Diablo and Meph aren't too much trouble at higher levels and Baal just takes forever to kill sometimes, but doesn't really threaten you.
Personally for me, it not only takes me a long time to kill some bosses, but it is also dangerous cause all my attacks are melee attacks.
Siaynoq's Playthroughs
D3 needs a huge overhaul in how boss battles work, primarily in the field of boss scaling coupled with a vastly better AI and more diversity in boss attacks. All of this I'm sure will be included, but taking that into account, the system will probabaly be so changed that we cannot at this point in time guess how to best balance it.
I get your point though
Phrozen, I agree the system itself will be overhauled, but there is gonna have to be a different form of scaling the monsters. Andy should always be a challenge, not someone I kill in a few WW when I am level 80.
If I am in act 4 and I go back to act 1 to help a friend kill andy, she should be easy as I did kill her a while ago, but I don't want some click, click, dead battle.
I agree with the scaling, but previously killed bosses should be somewhat easy, but still hard.
Might be a different (and better?) take on the whole scaling idea...
I was agreeing with you about improving their toughness, but when you go back and fight them they should be easier as you are a higher level, but still be a hard fight.
Well, your not exactly a typical mortal either...
What other mortal could push Diablo to hell, not be satisfied, go to hell, kill Diablo, still not be satisfied, go to the worldstone keep, and kill Baal?
They kind of implement that in lineage 2 raid bosses, where they will silence you (unable to cast magic) if you are too high a level, but thats just so high levels can't kill lower raid bosses on their own, so thats a bit to the extreme.
Definatley a good idea though.
Fuck you, I'm a dragon.
If then, we as the champion, can beat Diablo, one would assume Andariel shouldn't be too tough for us to handle.
From a lore standpoint, I'd say the Three should all be roughly as hard to beat at the same level (though naturally when playing the game you will perhaps encounter Mephisto at lvl 25 but Diablo at 30, so Diablo is more of a challenge the first time.)
The lesser evils though are just that, lesser. They should be more easily beatable.
Of course, from a gameplay view, I can agree with you. Let's say game progression goes like this, the levels indicating when you encounter the boss the first time in the story:
Andariel: lvl 10
Duriel: lvl 20
Diablo: lvl 30
Now in this scenario, Diablo will be much harder than Andariel, because you met her 20 levels ago. But going back and killing her at lvl 30, she herself will have risen in difficulty to face a lvl 30 hero. She could at this point be almost equally as hard to beat as the Lord of Terror himself.
I don't know how A2 could be reasonably difficult without making bosses to easy when you do go back to them later on unless they were just easier the first time for some reason.
Bashiok - Blizzard Poster
From the looks of things I think D3 will be much more strategy based, and I really hope it does turn out that way.