So I've been playing my strongest build lately with moonlight ward/fire walkers and arcane torrent with archon. It's easy on T3 especially with all the toughness from force armor. Now I've got access to Tal Rasha 4 piece with the helm/belt/offhand (i actually have 2 offhands and 2 necklaces too hehe). I've concerned that with the current helm I'm losing the APoC *and* the arcane torrent damage....so what should I enchant and which one should I aim for?
Should I abandon arcane torrent?
I've abandoned force armor to get the frost proc from ice armor, but I'm losing so much toughness....
I switched black hole to the lightning one to get the lightning proc.
Should I abandon archon and get a AP spender for the lightning or frost proc instead? If I get a frost from that then I could go back to force armor.
I got fire proc down cause of familiar's attack and the fire walkers ridic OP fire pools.
Anyone got some advice on what I should do to take advantage of the tal rasha bonus?
Resource cost reduction will help you a lot. In your current state, I would drop Archon and focus completely on using Arcane Torrent as your spender and load up on passive abilities to proc Tal Rasha Meteors.
You should be able to pump all your utility paragon points into RCR and switch the CDR from your Tal source to RCR. You still won't be able to perma channel because you have higher APS for channeling, but you'll get by in most non-single target situations.
Switching Archon to Frozen Mist is a good way to maintain Comet procs from Tal Rasha. You have no lightning proc, though, so I'd recommend switching to a weapon that has a lightning proc (Thunderfury, if you have one, is a great choice), or else switch Force Weapon to Electrify, or carry a lightning sig spell in place of Black Hole (Surge of Power is somewhat handy if you cannot maintain extended channels with AT).
Side note: I would highly recommend crafting Aughild's (shoulders and bracers for 3-piece bonus with RoRG).
Both Tal Rasha and archon are very strong builds. However, when you try to get the best from the two worlds, they both become sub-optimal.
You want Tal Rasha proc 4 elements, but all +all arcane damage for archon build.
You wantRCR for Tal build butCDR for archon build.
You have to give up Aughild set and Captain Crimson set which are excellent for archon build.
I have all the pieces for the two builds and I decidednot to have a merge.
While I do agree that the two should probably not be mixed, I disagree with several of your points. Running 4-piece Tal Rasha, you only stack one element, exactly as with archon, and it might as well be arcane. There's absolutely no reason to mix elemental damage ever. Also why on earth would you have to give up aughild to run Tal Rasha and archon? That makes absolutely no sense. Tal Rasha doesn't even have shoulders or bracers and neither does Vyr and you might as well not use Tal head if you have other pieces to get 4-set bonus. Even with Born set andCaptain Crimson, you still don't need to drop Aughild set. But you can of course not have 4-piece Tal Rasha, 4-piece Vyr, Born and Captain crimson. But drop either the Vyr or Captain Crimson/born, and you can have both,
Is it optimal? Probably not, I haven't tried it. But assuming CDR on some gear, you could quite easily go without 10% CDR from Born for instance.
I´ve been tumbling with the same thoughts - combining Archon + Tal meteor. And I came to the same conclusion as above.
The trick might be for you - incoorporate the 4 schools to proc Tal Rash - meteor, But in the same time in your case focus on Arcane Damg.
It's complicated to keep the same amount of DPS, if you are mixing all school, but a few pointers that I took into consideration.
Thunderfury - procs Lightning meteor (safe you a slot)
Familir - proc cold or fire (choose what ever you fancy)
Blackhole - a must ability in every build, can proc arcane, fire, cold and lightning (Cold isen¨t the best choice, sin it only increase your cold damg for x. sec.)
Ice Armor / storm armor.
....
The more buffs that you don't need to control etc, armor, familiar, TF the more you can focus on your main ability, and think about the Tal Ras set as X-tra damg.
.....
I´ve made this spec with MM and Mirrorball - I can spam MM all day long, casting Blackhole and Meteor in the meantime - and I don't miss the indirect Cooldown from Tal Ras on 8 sec = Maximizing your DPS
...
People might say otherwise - so find your own playstyle, don copycat builds and stuff - but do what you think is best I hope these advise will help you in the future, if you have any question, I'll gladely assist.
Blitzher
The problem with running without a signature spell is that on T5+, you pretty much are going to need arcane dynamo to do enough damage, at least while not in archon form. Using Ice familiar also makes you lose 10% damage that the fire would do. Which in itself probably makes it worth running 3 elements instead of one. Cold black hole may not be the best choice, but if you're running arcane as main, then blazar really isn't that much better and you can obviously not use spellsteal because that would waste a skillslot for procing meteors. MM - conflagrate or glacial spike w/ BH - absolute zero or blazar is pretty much what you have to chose from with arcane as main if you're running with thunderfury (which you really should for a Tal Rasha build). You canrun with BH - spellsteal, but you would have to sacrifice something like teleport or force weapon for it. Which i m o isn't worth it, but that's personal preference.
Also, Ice armor or storm armor really isn't going to cut it on T5+. Maybe you can get away with it at T4, but i m o energy armor - prismatic armor is far superior. The main reason being that on elite packs, you are getting pummeled with ranged attacks and affixes before getting melee hit, so ice armor doesn't even have time to build up before taking a whole lot of damage. Storm armor is just completely out of the question probably already on T4.
Edit: I just learned that a whole lot of elite affixes are actually considered melee damage even though there's no actual melee involved, so I might have to revise my thoughts on Ice armor.
So I'll chime in on this because I have the gear to run 3pc aughild's, 4pc tal and 4pc vyr's at the same time. I've tried it and tbh, I found it somewhat underwhelming. I really enjoyed archon when I went pure arcane and used all +arcane + cosmic strand for chain stunning packs and archon in a pinch. That was really strong.
I really enjoy Tal 4pc build, but when I did that, I didn't care to use archon. It just felt like I was trying to do too many things and wasn't really interested in using my archon ability, even if it wasn't on cooldown. To be fair, in order to do this and keep teleport (cause I love teleport...) I had to give up a signature spell and just rely on my thunderfury to proc lightning meteors. The issue was that I was sometimes running out of AP and I didn't like not having a signature spell.
It also doesn't help that my gear is a little suboptimal in the sense that in order to get both 4pc bonuses I have to give up using my ice climbers. I love ice climbers. Not just because I can be a bit lazier about not getting frozen, but because in higher torments, it helps my survivability much more than using archon would.
In the end, I decided to just rock 4 pc tal and still use as much arcane % as possible, but skip over archon. Each person will probably have their own opinion, but I am not thrilled about using both sets 4 pc bonus.
Yeah I gave up archon to use frozen mist and went back to energy armor. I still feel squishy on torment 4, so I'm going to try Dominance instead of Audacity.....until I can get more from gear. If I ever get a thunderfury to drop then I can give up lightning black hole ....but i don't think spellsteal is that powerful anyway for only 5 seconds. The only drawback I guess is that the CD on frozen mist and blackhole is higher than the 8s internal of tal rasha.
Thanks for the help!
P.S. It's just freaking awesome seeing all those meteors go down.
I use both blur and dominance...it's been working fine. Is that a bad thing?
Also I've noticed that the frost meteor falls down without using frozen mist. I thought weapon damage type doesn't proc the meteor? Did Blizz change it? I don't know what else could be proccing it.
Both Tal Rasha and archon are very strong builds. However, when you try to get the best from the two worlds, they both become sub-optimal.
You want Tal Rasha proc 4 elements, but all +all arcane damage for archon build.
You wantRCR for Tal build butCDR for archon build.
You have to give up Aughild set and Captain Crimson set which are excellent for archon build.
I have all the pieces for the two builds and I decidednot to have a merge.
While I do agree that the two should probably not be mixed, I disagree with several of your points. Running 4-piece Tal Rasha, you only stack one element, exactly as with archon, and it might as well be arcane. There's absolutely no reason to mix elemental damage ever. Also why on earth would you have to give up aughild to run Tal Rasha and archon? That makes absolutely no sense. Tal Rasha doesn't even have shoulders or bracers and neither does Vyr and you might as well not use Tal head if you have other pieces to get 4-set bonus. Even with Born set andCaptain Crimson, you still don't need to drop Aughild set. But you can of course not have 4-piece Tal Rasha, 4-piece Vyr, Born and Captain crimson. But drop either the Vyr or Captain Crimson/born, and you can have both,
Is it optimal? Probably not, I haven't tried it. But assuming CDR on some gear, you could quite easily go without 10% CDR from Born for instance.
Even though you have the ring, you probably cannot fit Captain Crimson set with Tal set and Vyr set with optimal stats. CDR is the most important stat for achon build and if you're not optimized with it, why care to play archon with Vyr set? Not to mention how to optimize skills/elements for Tal meteors.
Both Tal Rasha and archon are very strong builds. However, when you try to get the best from the two worlds, they both become sub-optimal.
You want Tal Rasha proc 4 elements, but all +all arcane damage for archon build.
You wantRCR for Tal build butCDR for archon build.
You have to give up Aughild set and Captain Crimson set which are excellent for archon build.
I have all the pieces for the two builds and I decidednot to have a merge.
While I do agree that the two should probably not be mixed, I disagree with several of your points. Running 4-piece Tal Rasha, you only stack one element, exactly as with archon, and it might as well be arcane. There's absolutely no reason to mix elemental damage ever. Also why on earth would you have to give up aughild to run Tal Rasha and archon? That makes absolutely no sense. Tal Rasha doesn't even have shoulders or bracers and neither does Vyr and you might as well not use Tal head if you have other pieces to get 4-set bonus. Even with Born set andCaptain Crimson, you still don't need to drop Aughild set. But you can of course not have 4-piece Tal Rasha, 4-piece Vyr, Born and Captain crimson. But drop either the Vyr or Captain Crimson/born, and you can have both,
Is it optimal? Probably not, I haven't tried it. But assuming CDR on some gear, you could quite easily go without 10% CDR from Born for instance.
Even though you have the ring, you probably cannot fit Captain Crimson set with Tal set and Vyr set with optimal stats. CDR is the most important stat for achon build and if you're not optimized with it, why care to play archon with Vyr set? Not to mention how to optimize skills/elements for Tal meteors.
First of all I quite obviously are advising against mixing, so I frankly don't understand what exactly you're questioning about my post.
But to answer your main question, which is about CDR, about 60% cooldown vs about 56-57% cooldown isn't much of a difference. 10% loss in cooldown when stacking it everywhere else is, as I said, not going to make much of a difference. If you can use Captain crimson, Tal, Vyr and Aughild (which you can), you can of course get "optimal" stats on them. Why wouldn't you be able to? It makes absolutely no sense.
But as I said, mixning Tal rasha and archon build is probably suboptimal
I use both blur and dominance...it's been working fine. Is that a bad thing?
Also I've noticed that the frost meteor falls down without using frozen mist. I thought weapon damage type doesn't proc the meteor? Did Blizz change it? I don't know what else could be proccing it.
If you are using both, then I guess that's fine. I'm not sure on what an optimal t5/6 setup would be, but I find that blur + dominance would be overkill for <= T4. It's all based on gear and spec too I guess. If you're standing still a bit with something like AT or disintegrate, then unwavering will is kind of like blur.
This build is one of the best Tal Rasha's for T2 but may be too squishy above T2 currently.
With TR 4 piece I personally I don't use Blackhole, Archon, RCR, CDR,or even focus on +Arcane anddo massive damage.
I focus only on damage, and killing the minions asap before they kill you. This is an Arcane Orb build - and very different to Disintegrate.
I run staple for pure damage:
(Spell 1) Energy armor - Pinpoint barrier- 5% crit
(Spell 2) Familiar sparkflint - +10% damage
(Spell 3) Magic weapon - +20% damage
and
(Skill 1) Glass cannon - 15% damage
(Skill 2) Elemental Exposure - (up to) 20% more damage
(Skill 3) Audacity - 15% damage if close
Am Itemized:
+Lightning (bracer)
+Electrocute (waist/legs)
+Arcane Orb(head/boots)
Thunderfury (Lightning proc) and Triumvirate (+Fire, +Lightning, +Arcane)
With this high base damage I run the following in synergy:
(Skill 4) Arcane Dynamo - for empowering Arcane Orb.I suspect empowersmeteor proc or Thunderfury.
I don't run Unwavering Will because it requires standing still, which isn't in the nature of Arcane Orb as it requires direct-line targeting, or non-tanky builds in general. If you work Arcane Dynamo properly you can get an overall DPS increase with Arcane Orb.
(Spell 4) Electrocute - Forked lightning - the most effective DPS for electrocute.
'Auto-attacking' Electrocute with this in between Arcane Orb's causes a proc to both fire meteor (thanks to sparkflint), and lightning meteor.
If both meteors on CD, generally this burst is at the same time, causing very high AoE damage, making Electrocute a primary damage 'cast' if your meteor cool downs are ready.
Casting this proc's arcane meteor, which can be used as a follow up after electrocute cast initiate on a pack (also leaving your 3 main meteor abilities at aclose cool-down timer).
Used after an Electrocute, casting Arcane orb will debuff hit targets applying 15% damage from Elemental Exposure.
Arcane Orb is used whenever you have arcane power throughout the engagement, enjoying TR Arcane Power Regeneration bonus. The exception to using your Arcane Power is that you might save some to cast a -->
Wow, what the noob.. does this guy not use Blackhole or Archon ? I thought this build was cool until now.
Here, let me convince you.
Blizzard completes the TR perfectly. It is high damage AoE, and a spell that pays off over duration. A good duration often happens with Blue/Yellow packs. Blizzard is available for re-cast whenever you want, if mob's move.. or at a choke. It is available for multiple blue/yellow packs in a row.. or an extended engagement whereas Blackhole or Archon are probably down.
Blizzard does not sacrifice CD based rotation dps in prolonged engagements, a problem Blackhole - Absolute Zero has without CDR stats, (being 12 second CD instead of effective 0 Blizzard).
4 seconds are wasted waiting for Blackhole when you could be dropping another (comparatively weak frost meteor, but not so much when the Elemental exposure debuff is taken into consideration).
A consideration is that CDR could mitigate this, but would need to question the damage loss of having CDR instead of a damage stat instead.
Blizzard makes a good engage - Ice-meteor slows, which is good for start of a pull. The (comparitivly weak) frost damage applies the initial 5% elemental exposure debuff.. ready for the more damaging elements.
(Bringing it together)
Chain lightning is effectively most-part AoE. Meteor proc's are a second layer. Blizzard is a third.
Arcane Orb is still AoE, but less of an area, and not sustained. However it does a big chuck of damage fast, especially when it's meteor proc's with it.
Attack speed synergizes with Arcane Dynamo stacks, for a minor dps increase
Energy armor - Pinpoint barrier, increases the Electrocute - Forked lightning proc rate
Thunderfury's proc benefits from +Lightning on bracer, and can proc electric meteor.
The most fun part of my build is using Arcane Orb- Obliteration because it is a fast moving skill-shot, that you work in with your meteor proc's. Getting15-20 mil crit over-kills on spiderlings is l337.
There are very few builds which can beat this build for DPS. A +Arcane disintegrate build might, or a heavy CDR archon build _might_ but unlikely.
The reason I introduced this as 'THE BEST' and not 'THE HIGHEST DPS' is I really don't know if it is the highest DPS. I do know is is the best because Skillshot = more long-term fun than laz0rbeam =). Having beamed enough I recognize.
Weakness to this build are:
* No CC (you better kill)
* Low mobility (no teleport, you can mitigate with movement speed boots and paragon move speed)
* Low cold damage (doesn't matter, cold is the weakest damage)
So i just test it out as long as you have the 4 piece set bonus, if you can give ur follow a weapon that either procs lighting , cold , fire or arcane your metoer will proc.. I just tested out with Thunderfury and it procs my lightining Meteor andazurewrath that has a chance to freeze it procs my cold metoer, with these weapons you can equip the azurewrath on your follow and Thudnerfury on you and now you have 2 source of procing meteors of cold and lite, familiar for fire and use arcane torrent for acane and your're pretty much set.
Should I abandon arcane torrent?
I've abandoned force armor to get the frost proc from ice armor, but I'm losing so much toughness....
I switched black hole to the lightning one to get the lightning proc.
Should I abandon archon and get a AP spender for the lightning or frost proc instead? If I get a frost from that then I could go back to force armor.
I got fire proc down cause of familiar's attack and the fire walkers ridic OP fire pools.
Anyone got some advice on what I should do to take advantage of the tal rasha bonus?
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/serrie-1878/hero/1193991
You should be able to pump all your utility paragon points into RCR and switch the CDR from your Tal source to RCR. You still won't be able to perma channel because you have higher APS for channeling, but you'll get by in most non-single target situations.
Switching Archon to Frozen Mist is a good way to maintain Comet procs from Tal Rasha. You have no lightning proc, though, so I'd recommend switching to a weapon that has a lightning proc (Thunderfury, if you have one, is a great choice), or else switch Force Weapon to Electrify, or carry a lightning sig spell in place of Black Hole (Surge of Power is somewhat handy if you cannot maintain extended channels with AT).
Side note: I would highly recommend crafting Aughild's (shoulders and bracers for 3-piece bonus with RoRG).
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You want Tal Rasha proc 4 elements, but all +all arcane damage for archon build.
You wantRCR for Tal build butCDR for archon build.
You have to give up Aughild set and Captain Crimson set which are excellent for archon build.
I have all the pieces for the two builds and I decidednot to have a merge.
Is it optimal? Probably not, I haven't tried it. But assuming CDR on some gear, you could quite easily go without 10% CDR from Born for instance.
Also, Ice armor or storm armor really isn't going to cut it on T5+. Maybe you can get away with it at T4, but i m o energy armor - prismatic armor is far superior. The main reason being that on elite packs, you are getting pummeled with ranged attacks and affixes before getting melee hit, so ice armor doesn't even have time to build up before taking a whole lot of damage. Storm armor is just completely out of the question probably already on T4.
Edit: I just learned that a whole lot of elite affixes are actually considered melee damage even though there's no actual melee involved, so I might have to revise my thoughts on Ice armor.
I really enjoy Tal 4pc build, but when I did that, I didn't care to use archon. It just felt like I was trying to do too many things and wasn't really interested in using my archon ability, even if it wasn't on cooldown. To be fair, in order to do this and keep teleport (cause I love teleport...) I had to give up a signature spell and just rely on my thunderfury to proc lightning meteors. The issue was that I was sometimes running out of AP and I didn't like not having a signature spell.
It also doesn't help that my gear is a little suboptimal in the sense that in order to get both 4pc bonuses I have to give up using my ice climbers. I love ice climbers. Not just because I can be a bit lazier about not getting frozen, but because in higher torments, it helps my survivability much more than using archon would.
In the end, I decided to just rock 4 pc tal and still use as much arcane % as possible, but skip over archon. Each person will probably have their own opinion, but I am not thrilled about using both sets 4 pc bonus.
Thanks for the help!
P.S. It's just freaking awesome seeing all those meteors go down.
Also I've noticed that the frost meteor falls down without using frozen mist. I thought weapon damage type doesn't proc the meteor? Did Blizz change it? I don't know what else could be proccing it.
But to answer your main question, which is about CDR, about 60% cooldown vs about 56-57% cooldown isn't much of a difference. 10% loss in cooldown when stacking it everywhere else is, as I said, not going to make much of a difference. If you can use Captain crimson, Tal, Vyr and Aughild (which you can), you can of course get "optimal" stats on them. Why wouldn't you be able to? It makes absolutely no sense.
But as I said, mixning Tal rasha and archon build is probably suboptimal
With TR 4 piece I personally I don't use Blackhole, Archon, RCR, CDR,or even focus on +Arcane anddo massive damage.
I focus only on damage, and killing the minions asap before they kill you. This is an Arcane Orb build - and very different to Disintegrate.
I run staple for pure damage:
(Spell 1) Energy armor - Pinpoint barrier- 5% crit
(Spell 2) Familiar sparkflint - +10% damage
(Spell 3) Magic weapon - +20% damage
and
(Skill 1) Glass cannon - 15% damage
(Skill 2) Elemental Exposure - (up to) 20% more damage
(Skill 3) Audacity - 15% damage if close
Am Itemized:
+Lightning (bracer)
+Electrocute (waist/legs)
+Arcane Orb(head/boots)
Thunderfury (Lightning proc) and Triumvirate (+Fire, +Lightning, +Arcane)
With this high base damage I run the following in synergy:
(Skill 4) Arcane Dynamo - for empowering Arcane Orb.I suspect empowersmeteor proc or Thunderfury.
I don't run Unwavering Will because it requires standing still, which isn't in the nature of Arcane Orb as it requires direct-line targeting, or non-tanky builds in general. If you work Arcane Dynamo properly you can get an overall DPS increase with Arcane Orb.
(Spell 4) Electrocute - Forked lightning - the most effective DPS for electrocute.
'Auto-attacking' Electrocute with this in between Arcane Orb's causes a proc to both fire meteor (thanks to sparkflint), and lightning meteor.
If both meteors on CD, generally this burst is at the same time, causing very high AoE damage, making Electrocute a primary damage 'cast' if your meteor cool downs are ready.
(Spell 5) Arcane Orb - Obliteration - highest % weapon damage, 8 yard AoE & fastest projectile delivery.
Casting this proc's arcane meteor, which can be used as a follow up after electrocute cast initiate on a pack (also leaving your 3 main meteor abilities at aclose cool-down timer).
Used after an Electrocute, casting Arcane orb will debuff hit targets applying 15% damage from Elemental Exposure.
Arcane Orb is used whenever you have arcane power throughout the engagement, enjoying TR Arcane Power Regeneration bonus. The exception to using your Arcane Power is that you might save some to cast a -->
(Spell 6) Blizzard - Unrelenting Storm. 1296% weapon damage over 8 seconds, aoe 12 yard radius
Wow, what the noob.. does this guy not use Blackhole or Archon ? I thought this build was cool until now.
Here, let me convince you.
Blizzard completes the TR perfectly. It is high damage AoE, and a spell that pays off over duration. A good duration often happens with Blue/Yellow packs. Blizzard is available for re-cast whenever you want, if mob's move.. or at a choke. It is available for multiple blue/yellow packs in a row.. or an extended engagement whereas Blackhole or Archon are probably down.
Blizzard does not sacrifice CD based rotation dps in prolonged engagements, a problem Blackhole - Absolute Zero has without CDR stats, (being 12 second CD instead of effective 0 Blizzard).
4 seconds are wasted waiting for Blackhole when you could be dropping another (comparatively weak frost meteor, but not so much when the Elemental exposure debuff is taken into consideration).
A consideration is that CDR could mitigate this, but would need to question the damage loss of having CDR instead of a damage stat instead.
Blizzard makes a good engage - Ice-meteor slows, which is good for start of a pull. The (comparitivly weak) frost damage applies the initial 5% elemental exposure debuff.. ready for the more damaging elements.
(Bringing it together)
Chain lightning is effectively most-part AoE. Meteor proc's are a second layer. Blizzard is a third.
Arcane Orb is still AoE, but less of an area, and not sustained. However it does a big chuck of damage fast, especially when it's meteor proc's with it.
Attack speed synergizes with Arcane Dynamo stacks, for a minor dps increase
Energy armor - Pinpoint barrier, increases the Electrocute - Forked lightning proc rate
Thunderfury's proc benefits from +Lightning on bracer, and can proc electric meteor.
The most fun part of my build is using Arcane Orb- Obliteration because it is a fast moving skill-shot, that you work in with your meteor proc's. Getting15-20 mil crit over-kills on spiderlings is l337.
There are very few builds which can beat this build for DPS. A +Arcane disintegrate build might, or a heavy CDR archon build _might_ but unlikely.
The reason I introduced this as 'THE BEST' and not 'THE HIGHEST DPS' is I really don't know if it is the highest DPS. I do know is is the best because Skillshot = more long-term fun than laz0rbeam =). Having beamed enough I recognize.
Weakness to this build are:
* No CC (you better kill)
* Low mobility (no teleport, you can mitigate with movement speed boots and paragon move speed)
* Low cold damage (doesn't matter, cold is the weakest damage)
FYI - my gear isn't awesome.. but it's not bad.
Paragon level: 195
1.35 mil damage self buffed
+24% attack speed
54% crit chance
+419% crit damage (8-20 mil Arcane Orbs)
350,000 health (I die sometimes)
Try it if you can itemize for it.
Fun, fast clearing = happy times and lots of loots.
Easily adaptable for T3/T4.. which obviously some people think they're l337 doing.
Obvious options -
Glass Cannon -> Blur
Audacity -> Paralysis
Energy Armor -> Prismatic
Blizzard -> Teleport or Frost Nova .. losing your Frost Meteor isn't that a big deal, but you lose 5% Elemental exposure too.
This is also a TR thread, and explains a bit about 'how to utilize' TR. Not everyone has the set yet.
Will Ice armor - Crystallize Proc Tal's cold meteors when hit?
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Wiberg-21958/hero/35061489