Last night i found the Eye of Etlitch and I lost 30%"paper" damage. It came out to roughly 80k paper dps.

I am a frost wizard and it came out to 20% extra frost damage. So i guess my question is, at what point is it worth it to lose X amount of damage for X amount of elemental damage? If this has been answered before i'm sorry. I also do not know how to link pictures correctly. http://imgur.com/BuuYttM&yS6Kas9&hE8qfz6&JklAU12&PSLApY1

My buddy found a 1.2k dps sword with +20% Cold damage on it, I lost like 100k paper DPS, so I passed on it for now. But I have a feeling if I find a few items with +% Cold damage on it, it might actually be worth it. That's not a bad looking amulet, either. However, I don't have any real answer for when it starts to outweigh losing the paper DPS.

Its hard to tell most of the time you have to test it. Losing 30% dps is probably too much however. Personally i found bracers with 20% cold and since they still had high dex and crit only lost about 1.8% total dps because it didnt roll the perfect 6% crit like my rare had. Wearing them made my actual damage skyrocket while using only cold runes, totally an upgrade.

You won't know the real impact until you have done the math based upon your build. It's easy if all your damage skills are cold, then it's a question of does this piece have a bigger benefit that what I'll be losing. For example, losing 18% damage for +25% cold (on an all cold build) will result in a +7% dps increase (just not on paper). However, your math will be more complicated if you use a mix of element disciplines. At that point, you may need to wait for more gear or change your build for replacing gear for a specific type of +ele damage to be effective.

@ Thorn - Yeah i was just going to use cold. Blizzard/Iceblast?/glacial spike? forgot name/ and Frozen Orb. But 30% is too much im assuming. Guess ill hold on to it until i find a use for it.

I ran into the same thing with my item, I lost paper DPS. I did a test and compared fire abilities using both items and paid attention the average of the crits, overall the + elemental damage was waaaaayyyyyyyyy better than my paper DPS. Are my fire abilities comparable to non fire abilities I was using? Its a touch call. I was using Frost Arrow and getting 700K crits, but swapped to Twin Charka's and had to relearn how to space my self. I was getting two hits at once of 500-600K so 1-1.2 mil for about the same amount of hatred. Frost arrow is obviously better at hitting more targets and adds slow, so that's where personal preference comes in.... My Entangle shot jumped up almost 100K as well so I've been using it as hatred generator combined with culling of the weak for extra snare damage.

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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.

Thanks for the reply guys. Gives a lot to think about. I guess i can go with the general assumption if the elemental damage % is more than the amount of paper dps you're losing.. it's worth it.

So after reading more, i find elemental damage is multiplicative. Does anyone have a "dumbed down" way of figuring out if losing sheet dps is better if you're replacing it with an %elemental damage affix?

Just found Azurewrath and i lose another 23% damage.

I have no found 3-4 items that give me added cold damage, Putting them on i have dropped 150K sheet dps. If anyone else has better insight or a way to make this easier to understand, I and i'm sure most would appreciate it. Looking at you Jaetch <3

Since elemental damage is multiplicative then you multiply your new sheet dps with elemental percent. Formula is (1+elemental dmg) * sheet dps = actual dps. So to break even, (1+elemental dmg) = new sheet dps/ old sheet dps. So to break even, your elemental % gain ALWAYS needs to be higher than your % dps lost.

Using the previous examples, if you lost 30% sheet dps then you need 1/0.7 = 43% elemental damage to break even. Since you gained 20% cold damage, then your overall actual dps is 0.7 * 1.2 = 84% of your original dps.

Next example: losing 18% damage for +25% cold does NOT increase dps by 7%. Let's see: 0.82 * 1.25 = 1.025 = 2.5% dps increase

Now if your weapon has cold damage and also has % cold damage buff, then my guess is that amount of cold damage on the weapon gets multiplied by the cold damage buff, for all spells. I'm not sure if the sheet dps already calculates the buff in.

The new affix does not take into consideration weapon element. Thats why it says "skills"
and not "damage". The affix only work at the very end of spells calculation and it must be using the element that the bonus is for. I tested weapons with cold damage and even auto attack are not increased by it as a DH. Its their way of making sure we never have a black weapon 2.0.

The new affix does not take into consideration weapon element. Thats why it says "skills"
and not "damage". The affix only work at the very end of spells calculation and it must be using the element that the bonus is for. I tested weapons with cold damage and even auto attack are not increased by it as a DH. Its their way of making sure we never have a black weapon 2.0.

Then if a weapon says cold or fire or holy etc. does it actually do anything? Is it the same as normal damage?

Rule of thumb imo is 15% special ability damage is never a great trade for more than 5% of sheet dps.

S'what I've been doing anyway. If I lose more than 5% sheet dps forgetabout it. Except that time I replaced my Lakunis with some bracers that gave 19% to lightning. 7% sheet dmg vs 19% to an all-lightning build.

Pretty simple. Instead of doing elaborate math I just try to stick to "rule of thumb" mindsets and I usually come out pretty happy.

yes! some official representation of the stat would be MOST welcome. if somehow the damage calculator could even incorporate it into your "Damage" number based on the elemental skills of that sort you have would be outstanding.

I haven't tested it, but "Y skills deal X% more damage" cannot possibly increase the elemental portion of a weapon dps! It would be insane! My 1460dps manticore would end up a 1600+dps Manticore with only a 20% increase. Not that I wouldn't like it. But it seems to make elemental weapon so OP, all you have to do is find a weapon with very high elemental damage, get a few items with skills deal X% more damage attribute, change glyph around, and boost your DPS to insane numbers.

On top of that, it would make too much of a good synergy. You would never get any upgrades, until you can replace all these gear to a new spell type, weapon AND extra gear that gives the bonus...

Since elemental damage is multiplicative then you multiply your new sheet dps with elemental percent. Formula is (1+elemental dmg) * sheet dps = actual dps. So to break even, (1+elemental dmg) = new sheet dps/ old sheet dps. So to break even, your elemental % gain ALWAYS needs to be higher than your % dps lost.

Using the previous examples, if you lost 30% sheet dps then you need 1/0.7 = 43% elemental damage to break even. Since you gained 20% cold damage, then your overall actual dps is 0.7 * 1.2 = 84% of your original dps.

Next example: losing 18% damage for +25% cold does NOT increase dps by 7%. Let's see: 0.82 * 1.25 = 1.025 = 2.5% dps increase

Now if your weapon has cold damage and also has % cold damage buff, then my guess is that amount of cold damage on the weapon gets multiplied by the cold damage buff, for all spells. I'm not sure if the sheet dps already calculates the buff in.

May I ask where you got that formula? I'm asking because I want to transfer it to a spreadsheet for quick & easy calculation. Therefore the formula needs to be correct.

EDIT: Wait a minute, I'm not sure if I understand that Formula.
You say: (1+elemental damage) * sheet dps = actual dps
With "elemental damage", do you mean the % damage increase (like +15% Cold Damage)? And are you sure it gets multiplied like that? So if I say (1+15) * 250.000 =4.000.000 dps? That can't be right.

Here is a simple way of doing it, assuming all of your damage skills are the same element.

Row Number|Column A__________|Column B
1 |Current Sheet DPS |[input from diablo]
2 | |
3 |Sheet Loss |[input % loss]
4 |New Sheet DPS |=B1*(1-B3)
5 |Elemental % Gain |[input % gain]
6 |Elemental DPS Gain |=B4*B5 |
7 | |
8 |eDPS |=B4+B6

Since elemental damage is multiplicative then you multiply your new sheet dps with elemental percent. Formula is (1+elemental dmg) * sheet dps = actual dps. So to break even, (1+elemental dmg) = new sheet dps/ old sheet dps. So to break even, your elemental % gain ALWAYS needs to be higher than your % dps lost.

Using the previous examples, if you lost 30% sheet dps then you need 1/0.7 = 43% elemental damage to break even. Since you gained 20% cold damage, then your overall actual dps is 0.7 * 1.2 = 84% of your original dps.

Next example: losing 18% damage for +25% cold does NOT increase dps by 7%. Let's see: 0.82 * 1.25 = 1.025 = 2.5% dps increase

Now if your weapon has cold damage and also has % cold damage buff, then my guess is that amount of cold damage on the weapon gets multiplied by the cold damage buff, for all spells. I'm not sure if the sheet dps already calculates the buff in.

May I ask where you got that formula? I'm asking because I want to transfer it to a spreadsheet for quick & easy calculation. Therefore the formula needs to be correct.

EDIT: Wait a minute, I'm not sure if I understand that Formula.
You say: (1+elemental damage) * sheet dps = actual dps
With "elemental damage", do you mean the % damage increase (like +15% Cold Damage)? And are you sure it gets multiplied like that? So if I say (1+15) * 250.000 =4.000.000 dps? That can't be right.

You are correct, this is wrong. What +% to element damage does, is adds that % to the end of the calculation vs your skills.

For instance, your dps is calculated with the standard formula, weapon average damage x attacks per second x mainstat in %, then x skill damage percent, PLUS element damage %. [Just keeping it simple, we aren't going to factor CC or CD, so we can see how it exactly works.]
It's not "multiplicative" it's additive, but it's being added to something that IS multiplicative.

I.E.

Your damage is 100k, your attacks per second are 2.0. Frozen orb does 393%. This means Frozen Orb does 393,000 every second or 196,500 per hit. [Assuming you don't crit.]
With 20% + To cold damage, frozen orb does 206,500 per hit. [still assuming you don't crit]

If you're using a weapon that does Cold Damage, you take the average damage in cold, and add 20%, then you do the base weapon calculation with the additional 20% and you'll get a higher base or flat damage, which is then multiplied by main stat, and then multiplied by skill damage %.

So the question is, is it ever worth it to drop damage % on the paper sheet for Element damage, the answer is still yes -- but it's not at all woth it if you're losing 20-30%, it's only worth it if you're losing 1-10%, depending on how much +Element damage you have, and what skills your using. +Element damage scales better vs skills that already do really high % weapon damage. An example is meteor. Meteor will get a bigger bonus out of +% weapon damage than Frozen Orb, since it's weapon damage % is nearly twice that of Frozen orb.

So no, that formula is made up and bunk and not at all how it works, if it was, people would be melting T6 with average crits of 5 million a pop, which would give you an eDPS of around 10 million if you had an attack speed of 2.0.

You can test this, you can do my calculation, and it will match the damage you get when you don't crit with damage numbers on. It is correct, this other formula does NOT match the damage numbers in the game, therefor -- it's wrong.

So now, the next question is, is stacking a single +% damage to skill x worth it?

Absolutely for the same reason. So you have +% 20 to cold damage, and +20% to magic missile, then using glacial spike that does 175% now does 215%, if you pair this with a mirror ball, it now does 430%. If you're also using a cold damage weapon, the average damage on the cold damage affix is increased also by 20% at the base, which gets multiplied by mainstat, increasing your effective damage multiplicative, before the 430% is factored against your weapon damage.

This essentially makes Glacial spike do more damage than Frozen Orb, frozen orb still has more damage potential against large groups, because it has a bigger AOE radius, hence hitting more people and doing more actual Damage Per Second, but it will take longer to kill a single target vs Glacial Spike. So at this point, you use frozen orb to melt whites, and glacial spike to murder elites.

If you have a pair of frost burns too... you're sitting pretty.

It's also important to note, that the DPS in your paper sheet, is ONLY for attacking WITHOUT a skill. All skills that are 100% weapon damage or more, will do incredibly higher damage per second than what you see on the sheet, since weapon damage is applied first, before the multiplicative increases from mainstat, and the proc rates of CC.

I am a frost wizard and it came out to 20% extra frost damage. So i guess my question is, at what point is it worth it to lose X amount of damage for X amount of elemental damage? If this has been answered before i'm sorry. I also do not know how to link pictures correctly.

http://imgur.com/BuuYttM&yS6Kas9&hE8qfz6&JklAU12&PSLApY1

@ Thorn - Yeah i was just going to use cold. Blizzard/Iceblast?/glacial spike? forgot name/ and Frozen Orb. But 30% is too much im assuming. Guess ill hold on to it until i find a use for it.

or.. Maybe not.

Just found Azurewrath and i lose another 23% damage.

1327 dps

718-857 cold damage

cold skills deal 19% more damage

7% dmg

I have no found 3-4 items that give me added cold damage, Putting them on i have dropped 150K sheet dps. If anyone else has better insight or a way to make this easier to understand, I and i'm sure most would appreciate it. Looking at you Jaetch <3

Since elemental damage is multiplicative then you multiply your new sheet dps with elemental percent. Formula is (1+elemental dmg) * sheet dps = actual dps. So to break even, (1+elemental dmg) = new sheet dps/ old sheet dps. So to break even, your elemental % gain ALWAYS needs to be higher than your % dps lost.

Using the previous examples, if you lost 30% sheet dps then you need 1/0.7 = 43% elemental damage to break even. Since you gained 20% cold damage, then your overall actual dps is 0.7 * 1.2 = 84% of your original dps.

Next example: losing 18% damage for +25% cold does NOT increase dps by 7%. Let's see: 0.82 * 1.25 = 1.025 = 2.5% dps increase

Now if your weapon has cold damage and also has % cold damage buff, then my guess is that amount of cold damage on the weapon gets multiplied by the cold damage buff, for all spells. I'm not sure if the sheet dps already calculates the buff in.

and not "damage". The affix only work at the very end of spells calculation and it must be using the element that the bonus is for. I tested weapons with cold damage and even auto attack are not increased by it as a DH. Its their way of making sure we never have a black weapon 2.0.

S'what I've been doing anyway. If I lose more than 5% sheet dps forgetabout it. Except that time I replaced my Lakunis with some bracers that gave 19% to lightning. 7% sheet dmg vs 19% to an all-lightning build.

Pretty simple. Instead of doing elaborate math I just try to stick to "rule of thumb" mindsets and I usually come out pretty happy.

hope blizz reads this :X

On top of that, it would make too much of a good synergy. You would never get any upgrades, until you can replace all these gear to a new spell type, weapon AND extra gear that gives the bonus...

Someone look into it?

Row Number|Column A__________|Column B

1 |Current Sheet DPS |[input from diablo]

2 | |

3 |Sheet Loss |[input % loss]

4 |New Sheet DPS |=B1*(1-B3)

5 |Elemental % Gain |[input % gain]

6 |Elemental DPS Gain |=B4*B5 |

7 | |

8 |eDPS |=B4+B6

For instance, your dps is calculated with the standard formula, weapon average damage x attacks per second x mainstat in %, then x skill damage percent, PLUS element damage %. [Just keeping it simple, we aren't going to factor CC or CD, so we can see how it exactly works.]

It's not "multiplicative" it's additive, but it's being added to something that IS multiplicative.

I.E.

Your damage is 100k, your attacks per second are 2.0. Frozen orb does 393%. This means Frozen Orb does 393,000 every second or 196,500 per hit. [Assuming you don't crit.]

With 20% + To cold damage, frozen orb does 206,500 per hit. [still assuming you don't crit]

If you're using a weapon that does Cold Damage, you take the average damage in cold, and add 20%, then you do the base weapon calculation with the additional 20% and you'll get a higher base or flat damage, which is then multiplied by main stat, and then multiplied by skill damage %.

So the question is, is it ever worth it to drop damage % on the paper sheet for Element damage, the answer is still yes -- but it's not at all woth it if you're losing 20-30%, it's only worth it if you're losing 1-10%, depending on how much +Element damage you have, and what skills your using. +Element damage scales better vs skills that already do really high % weapon damage. An example is meteor. Meteor will get a bigger bonus out of +% weapon damage than Frozen Orb, since it's weapon damage % is nearly twice that of Frozen orb.

So no, that formula is made up and bunk and not at all how it works, if it was, people would be melting T6 with average crits of 5 million a pop, which would give you an eDPS of around 10 million if you had an attack speed of 2.0.

You can test this, you can do my calculation, and it will match the damage you get when you don't crit with damage numbers on. It is correct, this other formula does NOT match the damage numbers in the game, therefor -- it's wrong.

So now, the next question is, is stacking a single +% damage to skill x worth it?

Absolutely for the same reason. So you have +% 20 to cold damage, and +20% to magic missile, then using glacial spike that does 175% now does 215%, if you pair this with a mirror ball, it now does 430%. If you're also using a cold damage weapon, the average damage on the cold damage affix is increased also by 20% at the base, which gets multiplied by mainstat, increasing your effective damage multiplicative, before the 430% is factored against your weapon damage.

This essentially makes Glacial spike do more damage than Frozen Orb, frozen orb still has more damage potential against large groups, because it has a bigger AOE radius, hence hitting more people and doing more actual Damage Per Second, but it will take longer to kill a single target vs Glacial Spike. So at this point, you use frozen orb to melt whites, and glacial spike to murder elites.

If you have a pair of frost burns too... you're sitting pretty.

It's also important to note, that the DPS in your paper sheet, is ONLY for attacking WITHOUT a skill. All skills that are 100% weapon damage or more, will do incredibly higher damage per second than what you see on the sheet, since weapon damage is applied first, before the multiplicative increases from mainstat, and the proc rates of CC.