Ray of Frost + Crimson Rune(Snow Blast) has the potential to be a lethal combo for single target dmg. Ray of Frost + Crimson = 275% Weapon dmg increasing slowly to 715% Weapon dmg after 1.5 seconds, AP cost = 29/sec.
The mechanics of the crimson rune could drastically change the dmg of RoF given different values for of AP regeneration and Maximum AP. So this post is to investigate just how much.
Base Wizard Regen = 12.5 AP/sec.
AP Regen w/ Astral Presence = 14.5 AP/sec
AP Regem w/ Arcamot = 17 AP/sec
AP Regen w/ Arcantot + Astral Presence = 19 AP/sec
Power of the Storm reduces ability cost by 7 AP.
Energy Armor = -20 AP
Energy Armor + Energy tap = +40 AP
Astral Presence = +20 AP
There are two possible ways the dmg is calculated during the 1.5 second build up phase,
#1 Small increases over time, independent of casts.
#2 Large increases dependent on each new cast.
#1 For examples sake, lets say the dmg is calculated every 0.5 second.
Cast time is unchanged at 1 second.
Max AP = 80 => x is the maximum continual cast time beyond the first.
1) 80-29*x+12.5*x=29 => x = 3 seconds = 3 casts => 4 casts total (Round down to the Nearest full cast)
2) 80-29*x+17*x=29 => x = 4.25 seconds = 4.25 casts => 5 casts total
Max AP = 100 => x is the maximum continual cast time beyond the first.
3) 100-29*x+12.5*x=29 => x = 4.3 => 5 casts (Round down to the nearest full cast)
4) 100-29*x+14.5*x=29 => x = 4.9 => 5 casts
5) 100-29*x+17*x=29 => x = 5.9 => 6 casts
6) 100-22*x+12.5*x=22 => x = 8.2 => 9 casts
7) 100-22*x+17*x=22 => x = 15.6 => 16 casts
Max AP = 120 => x is the maximum continual cast time beyond the first.
8) 120-29*x+14.5*x=29 => x = 6.3 => 7 casts (Round down to the nearest full cast)
9) 120-29*x+19*x=29 => x = 9.1 => 10 casts
10) 120-22*x+14.5*x=22 => x = 13 => 14 casts
11) 120-22*x+19*x=22 => x = 32.3 => 33 casts
Max AP = 140 => x is the maximum continual cast time beyond the first.
12) 140-29*x+12.5*x=29 => x = 6.7 => 7 casts (Round down to the nearest full cast)
13) 140-29*x+17*x=29 => x = 9.25 => 10 casts
Max AP = 160 => x is the maximum continual cast time beyond the first.
14) 160-29*x+14.5*x=29 => x = 9 => 10 casts (Round down to the nearest full cast)
15) 160-29*x+19*x=29 => x = 13.1 => 14 casts
As you can see, the % avg wpn dmg does not improve by any large amount by increasing AP regen or max AP. Note: Shortening the Time Step (0.5 seconds) slightly alters the averages.
The first is rather self explanatory and without incident, so I will discuss the ramifications of the 2nd below.
The dmg of the beam might stay constant during the entire cast time.
Thus, the 1st cast might be, 275+440*0/2 = 275% wpn dmg, 2nd cast would be 275+440*1/2 = 495% wpn dmg, and the 3rd cast would finally be the 275+440*2/2 = 715% wpn dmg.
However, this would mean RoF would have a haste soft cap built in.
Lets say you have sufficient haste to reduce your cast speed to 0.75 seconds.
0.75+0.75 = 1.5 sec (Perfectly sync'd with the build up time)
7 casts = 5.25 seconds
((0.75*(275+440*0/2)+0.75*(275+440*1/2)+(275+440*2/2)*3.75)/5.25 = 620% avg wpn dmg per cast
=> 7*621/5.25 = 828% wpn dmg per second
Now lets say you got an upgrade, and your new cast speed in 0.7 seconds
0.7 + 0.7 = 1.4 sec (0.1 seconds before the build up time, thus your 3rd cast wont be max)
7 cast = 4.9 seconds
((0.7*(275+440*0/3)+0.7*(275+440*1/3)+(275+440*2/3)*0.7+(275+440*3/3)*2.8)/4.9 = 589% wpn dmg per cas
=> 7*589/4.9 = 841% wpm dmg per second
Given this method of calculating dmg, it is less advantageous than maybe it should be at higher haste levels. Depending on the cast speeds, you could see very little DPS gain, yet consume more AP/sec. Which method blizz uses is up in the air, but I am leaning towards the method described here.
Great that you worked the numbers and put them all here, we already talked about the supremacy of RoF compared to ap used and damage aka Meteor with Crimson rune (though I think Meteor with Indigo might be interesting). My only question is will stretch time bubble increase attack speed of RoF and Disintegrate. I don't think it'll really matter whether you use Storm Armor with gold rune or Energy Armor with precision (to get more criticals) however I'll be far away from ever using indigo rune for energy armor. RoF = awesome, you made a believer out of me DK did a lot of analyzing just how awesome RoF is, if you haven't seen it, should do a search. My builds involve Disintegrate and or RoF with slow time (damage or stretch) and Frost nova or AT (but probably FN since you get it so early.) I think a lot of people will be using one or both of these spells if they don't use Meteor with Indigo and precision energy armor, or alabaster storm armor...
My only question is will stretch time bubble increase attack speed of RoF and Disintegrate.
Well, I do not have any definitive proof of course, but one would have to conclude it would. If channeled spells were unable to benefit from +%cast speed they would fall behind greatly in dmg output.
You may have some trick up your sleeve, however, I would think that time warp would be greater than stretch time. Especially, with an ability like RoF, because you still have to contend with the 1.5 second build up time. The longer you can cast, the more dmg you will output.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
No offense, I see you put a lot of work in this but I REALLY suck at math and looking at all those numbers just gave me a headache. Excuse my ignorance but whats the TL;DR version?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I agree with feminism. I don't think that it's right that for every dollar a man makes, a women gets 70 cents. Why do I only get 30 cents and some chick gets the rest?
No offense, I see you put a lot of work in this but I REALLY suck at math and looking at all those numbers just gave me a headache. Excuse my ignorance but whats the TL;DR version?
Well what I got from it, and I did this for myself as well, is that Ray of Frost & Crimson rune is quite potent combination. If you consider single target damage per AP, it would only fall second to a combination of Arcane Orb + Arcane torrent. Yet, it is also an extremely potent defensive ability as it slows the monsters atk speed by 30% and movement speed by 40%. You can use Temporal Flux(Passive) in an arcane build, but its SINGLE TARGET defensive ability still pales in comparison. Of course, then you are actually comparing 3 abilities to 1, hardly a fair judgement, yet it stands strong as a competitor.
The most important thing the math tells me is that you do not have to go out of your way to acquire passive regen or +max AP skills to make the ability shine. Power of the storm ,on the other hand, is the most potent method to enable you to cast for longer. However, RoF still does quite well on its own actually.
Another thing it made me realize is just how weak the passive regen abilities really are. Though I do rather like Austral Presence, as it's a passive skill and boosts maximum AP. On the other hand, Arcanot is wasted rune slot, imo. My biggest concern is that the passive regen will not scale with gear, +%cast speed. In other words, if I am casting twice as fast, my passive regen remains unchanged, thus yielding me half as much benefit.
Another thing that worries me about this ability is the 1.5 second build up time and its interaction with +%cast speed. The faster you cast the more it penalizes you, because you are spending a larger fraction of your cast time within that 1.5 second window. However, more +%cast speed should remain a dmg increase, and this is likely only a problem later down the road when we have collected good gear.
Of course Meteor + indigo could be quite potent as well, but we do not have enough info to make any determinations on it. I am very much intrigued by the potential of this ability thanks to ElectricEel, but I feel I should withhold judgement atm.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
The most important thing the math tells me is that you do not have to go out of your way to acquire passive regen or +max AP skills to make the ability shine. Power of the storm on the other hand is the most potent method to enable you to cast for longer. However, RoF still does quite well on its own actually.
That is exactly why I like disintegrate and RoF as spell choices, most builds that involve meteor with crimson have massive ap regen to the exclusion of almost everything else. 1 Astral Presence and you should never have to worry about it (RoF or Disintegrate ap) and you don't need indigo energy armor (which I think is bad because you have this shield that works great for absorbing damage but your going to use a high ap spell to make sure it is at half if not lower capacity...)
I have been thinking about, #2 Large increases dependent on each new cast, and the more I think about it the more I think its not likely.
What would happen if you cancelled the spell just before it finished?
-22 AP, - fraction of a second, and 0 dmg?!? And it does not matter how good you are, the final cast would almost always yield no dmg.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away. A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Haste does make channeled spells cast faster (As do increased weapon speeds) but they drain resources faster too. After 1.5 seconds, you'll always be doing 260% weapon damage for 20 AP (Before reduction), no matter if it hits .9 times a second or 1.6 times a second.
In theory, AP cost reduction should benefit channeled spells the most unless Blizzard implements a special case for this situation. Seeing as both Storm Armor and Familiar still have their AP rate effects (reduction and regen, appropriately), the concept behind this sort of build is still very viable.
It is best used with things like Ray of Frost, Disintegrate, and Arcane Torrent.
The mechanics of the crimson rune could drastically change the dmg of RoF given different values for of AP regeneration and Maximum AP. So this post is to investigate just how much.
Base Wizard Regen = 12.5 AP/sec.
AP Regen w/ Astral Presence = 14.5 AP/sec
AP Regem w/ Arcamot = 17 AP/sec
AP Regen w/ Arcantot + Astral Presence = 19 AP/sec
Power of the Storm reduces ability cost by 7 AP.
Energy Armor = -20 AP
Energy Armor + Energy tap = +40 AP
Astral Presence = +20 AP
Change in %dmg = 715-275 = 440% dmg
============================================================================
There are two possible ways the dmg is calculated during the 1.5 second build up phase,
#1 Small increases over time, independent of casts.
#2 Large increases dependent on each new cast.
============================================================================
#1 For examples sake, lets say the dmg is calculated every 0.5 second.
Cast time is unchanged at 1 second.
Max AP = 80 => x is the maximum continual cast time beyond the first.
1) 80-29*x+12.5*x=29 => x = 3 seconds = 3 casts => 4 casts total (Round down to the Nearest full cast)
2) 80-29*x+17*x=29 => x = 4.25 seconds = 4.25 casts => 5 casts total
1) ((0.5*(275+440*0/3)+0.5*(275+440*1/3)+0.5*(275+440*2/3)+2.5*(275+440*3/3))/4 = 605% avg wpn dmg
2) ((0.5*(275)+0.5*(275+440*1/3)+0.5*(275+440*2/3)+715*3.5)/5 = 627% avg wpn dmg
Max AP = 100 => x is the maximum continual cast time beyond the first.
3) 100-29*x+12.5*x=29 => x = 4.3 => 5 casts (Round down to the nearest full cast)
4) 100-29*x+14.5*x=29 => x = 4.9 => 5 casts
5) 100-29*x+17*x=29 => x = 5.9 => 6 casts
6) 100-22*x+12.5*x=22 => x = 8.2 => 9 casts
7) 100-22*x+17*x=22 => x = 15.6 => 16 casts
3) ((0.5*(275)+0.5*(275+440*1/3)+0.5*(275+440*2/3)+715*3.5)/5 = 627% avg wpn dmg
4) ((0.5*(275)+0.5*(275+440*1/3)+0.5*(275+440*2/3)+715*3.5)/5 = 627% avg wpn dmg
5) ((0.5*(275)+0.5*(275+440*1/3)+0.5*(275+440*2/3)+715*4.5)/6 = 642% avg wpn dmg
6) ((0.5*(275)+0.5*(275+440*1/3)+0.5*(275+440*2/3)+715*7.5)/9 = 666% avg wpn dmg
7) ((0.5*(275)+0.5*(275+440*1/3)+0.5*(275+440*2/3)+715*14.5)/16 = 688% avg wpn dmg
Max AP = 120 => x is the maximum continual cast time beyond the first.
8) 120-29*x+14.5*x=29 => x = 6.3 => 7 casts (Round down to the nearest full cast)
9) 120-29*x+19*x=29 => x = 9.1 => 10 casts
10) 120-22*x+14.5*x=22 => x = 13 => 14 casts
11) 120-22*x+19*x=22 => x = 32.3 => 33 casts
8) ((0.5*(275)+0.5*(275+440*1/3)+0.5*(275+440*2/3)+715*5.5)/7 = 652% avg wpn dmg
9) ((0.5*(275)+0.5*(275+440*1/3)+0.5*(275+440*2/3)+715*8.5)/10 = 671% avg wpn dmg
10) ((0.5*(275)+0.5*(275+440*1/3)+0.5*(275+440*2/3)+715*12.5)/14 = 683% avg wpn dmg
11) ((0.5*(275)+0.5*(275+440*1/3)+0.5*(275+440*2/3)+715*31.5)/33 = 702% avg wpn dmg
Max AP = 140 => x is the maximum continual cast time beyond the first.
12) 140-29*x+12.5*x=29 => x = 6.7 => 7 casts (Round down to the nearest full cast)
13) 140-29*x+17*x=29 => x = 9.25 => 10 casts
12) ((0.5*(275+440*0/3)+0.5*(275+440*1/3)+0.5*(275+440*2/3)+715*5.5)/7 = 652% avg wpn dmg
13) ((0.5*(275+440*0/3)+0.5*(275+440*1/3)+0.5*(275+440*2/3)+715*8.5)/10 = 671% avg wpn dmg
Max AP = 160 => x is the maximum continual cast time beyond the first.
14) 160-29*x+14.5*x=29 => x = 9 => 10 casts (Round down to the nearest full cast)
15) 160-29*x+19*x=29 => x = 13.1 => 14 casts
14) ((0.5*(275+440*0/3)+0.5*(275+440*1/3)+0.5*(275+440*2/3)+715*8.5)/10 = 671% avg wpn dmg
15) ((0.5*(275+440*0/3)+0.5*(275+440*1/3)+0.5*(275+440*2/3)+715*12.5)/14 = 683% avg wpn dmg
As you can see, the % avg wpn dmg does not improve by any large amount by increasing AP regen or max AP. Note: Shortening the Time Step (0.5 seconds) slightly alters the averages.
============================================================================
The first is rather self explanatory and without incident, so I will discuss the ramifications of the 2nd below.
The dmg of the beam might stay constant during the entire cast time.
Thus, the 1st cast might be, 275+440*0/2 = 275% wpn dmg, 2nd cast would be 275+440*1/2 = 495% wpn dmg, and the 3rd cast would finally be the 275+440*2/2 = 715% wpn dmg.
However, this would mean RoF would have a haste soft cap built in.
Lets say you have sufficient haste to reduce your cast speed to 0.75 seconds.
0.75+0.75 = 1.5 sec (Perfectly sync'd with the build up time)
7 casts = 5.25 seconds
((0.75*(275+440*0/2)+0.75*(275+440*1/2)+(275+440*2/2)*3.75)/5.25 = 620% avg wpn dmg per cast
=> 7*621/5.25 = 828% wpn dmg per second
Now lets say you got an upgrade, and your new cast speed in 0.7 seconds
0.7 + 0.7 = 1.4 sec (0.1 seconds before the build up time, thus your 3rd cast wont be max)
7 cast = 4.9 seconds
((0.7*(275+440*0/3)+0.7*(275+440*1/3)+(275+440*2/3)*0.7+(275+440*3/3)*2.8)/4.9 = 589% wpn dmg per cas
=> 7*589/4.9 = 841% wpm dmg per second
Given this method of calculating dmg, it is less advantageous than maybe it should be at higher haste levels. Depending on the cast speeds, you could see very little DPS gain, yet consume more AP/sec. Which method blizz uses is up in the air, but I am leaning towards the method described here.
============================================================================
The equation for calculating the # of casts possible,
c =(t+(m-a)/(a/t-r))/t
Simplified,
c =(m-r*t)/(a-r*t)
a = arcane power cost
m = maximum arcane power
r = regen rate of arcane power
t = cast time
c = # of casts
Note: These values do not determine any sort of break points, because it does not include things such as +AP on crit or +max AP on gear.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
If you notice any permutations missing or a mistake let me know.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Well, I do not have any definitive proof of course, but one would have to conclude it would. If channeled spells were unable to benefit from +%cast speed they would fall behind greatly in dmg output.
You may have some trick up your sleeve, however, I would think that time warp would be greater than stretch time. Especially, with an ability like RoF, because you still have to contend with the 1.5 second build up time. The longer you can cast, the more dmg you will output.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
Well what I got from it, and I did this for myself as well, is that Ray of Frost & Crimson rune is quite potent combination. If you consider single target damage per AP, it would only fall second to a combination of Arcane Orb + Arcane torrent. Yet, it is also an extremely potent defensive ability as it slows the monsters atk speed by 30% and movement speed by 40%. You can use Temporal Flux(Passive) in an arcane build, but its SINGLE TARGET defensive ability still pales in comparison. Of course, then you are actually comparing 3 abilities to 1, hardly a fair judgement, yet it stands strong as a competitor.
The most important thing the math tells me is that you do not have to go out of your way to acquire passive regen or +max AP skills to make the ability shine. Power of the storm ,on the other hand, is the most potent method to enable you to cast for longer. However, RoF still does quite well on its own actually.
Another thing it made me realize is just how weak the passive regen abilities really are. Though I do rather like Austral Presence, as it's a passive skill and boosts maximum AP. On the other hand, Arcanot is wasted rune slot, imo. My biggest concern is that the passive regen will not scale with gear, +%cast speed. In other words, if I am casting twice as fast, my passive regen remains unchanged, thus yielding me half as much benefit.
Another thing that worries me about this ability is the 1.5 second build up time and its interaction with +%cast speed. The faster you cast the more it penalizes you, because you are spending a larger fraction of your cast time within that 1.5 second window. However, more +%cast speed should remain a dmg increase, and this is likely only a problem later down the road when we have collected good gear.
Of course Meteor + indigo could be quite potent as well, but we do not have enough info to make any determinations on it. I am very much intrigued by the potential of this ability thanks to ElectricEel, but I feel I should withhold judgement atm.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
That is exactly why I like disintegrate and RoF as spell choices, most builds that involve meteor with crimson have massive ap regen to the exclusion of almost everything else. 1 Astral Presence and you should never have to worry about it (RoF or Disintegrate ap) and you don't need indigo energy armor (which I think is bad because you have this shield that works great for absorbing damage but your going to use a high ap spell to make sure it is at half if not lower capacity...)
Great multiplayer, likely not so single player.
What would happen if you cancelled the spell just before it finished?
-22 AP, - fraction of a second, and 0 dmg?!? And it does not matter how good you are, the final cast would almost always yield no dmg.
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
It is best used with things like Ray of Frost, Disintegrate, and Arcane Torrent.
Good to have this info!