(2) Set Bonus
Archon gains the effect of every rune
(4) Set Bonus
Archon stacks also increase your Attack Speed, Armor and Resistances by 1%.
(6) Set Bonus
You also gain Archon stacks when you hit with an Archon ability
Chantodo's Resolve
(2) Set Bonus
Every second while in Archon form you expel a Wave of Destruction, dealing 350% weapon damage to enemies within 30 yards
Every time you hit with an attack while not in Archon form, 350% weapon damage is added to the Wave of Destruction, stacking up to 20 times
Vyr's Faq's
The Vyr 2-Set gives me all archon runes, does it matter which archon rune I put on my bar?
Yes! Both your explosion upon transforming (combustion rune) and the Wave of Destruction AoE from Chantodo's element bonus type are determined by the Archon rune you choose. If you're gearing for Fire Elemental% bonus, make sure to put the Fire archon rune on your bars otherwise you won't see that bonus appear in your damage.
How do Archon Stacks work? What do they do?
Each stack is a 6% damage buff that works just like Glass Cannon. So at 50 stacks, that's a 300% damage buff.
How do I build more Archon Buff Stacks?
Without the Vyr 6-set, killing an enemy is the only way to increase the number of stacks you have. You get 1 stack for each enemy killed in your game, by either you or your teammates. If you DO have the Vyr 6-set, casting one of your Archon spells and having it hit a target will grant you one more stack. Every cast of your #1 spell will grant one stack, every cast of your ground-slam left click will grant one stack, you gain one stacks from your channeled beam at a rate equal to your attacks/second, all regardless of how many enemies you hit with each attack.
How do Chantodo's Stacks work? What do they do?
If you have the 2-set bonus for the Chantodo's set you you'll cast wave of force continuously roughly once per second upon entering Archon Form. For each stack of chantodo's you have when you enter archon form it will increase the base weapon damage of this AoE for the entire duration of that archon cast. With one stack it will pulse for 350% weapon damage, with 20 stacks it will pulse for 7000% weapon damage.
How do I build more Chantodo's Buff Stacks?
See the above section of how to gain Archon Stacks with Vyr-6set, and replace archon skills with your normal skills. It is one stack per attack that lands, no matter how many enemies it hits. Channeled spells grant you stacks at your attack rate.
Misc
Chantodo's Wave of Destruction Hits for 344.1666% weapon damage per stack every 0.98333 seconds (or every 59 frames @60fps)
Hits for the same amount each time, uses your average weapon damage...so no variance occurs between min dmg/max dmg
Wave of Destruction can and does crit
The wave of Destruction DOES NOT grant you archon stacks on-it
Wave of Destruction does not get buffed by the 22% improved archon rune.
Yeah true dat, it only cleared a Gr 69 with non perfect gear and under 800 paragon+ under 70 gems, but tal still takes a dump on it I guess. Why are people always claiming things so matter of fact-confidently, when they just are not even able to know those things at a certain point in time?!
Yeah true dat, it only cleared a Gr 69 with non perfect gear and under 800 paragon+ under 70 gems, but tal still takes a dump on it I guess. Why are people always claiming things so matter of fact-confidently, when they just are not even able to know those things at a certain point in time?!
you do realise you posted in a thread that is over a month old, and at the time it was posted it was assumed it wouldn't compete with tals due to how damage modifiers work, in that archon damage, and chantodo's set bonus damage is all additive, and is additive with self/party buffs also making it vastly inferior to tals in that regard, furthermore some of the information in the OP is now obslete and incorrect, therefore either needs updating or taking it very liberally with a view to being a rough guide on some basic mechanics and nothing more, in future think before posting, because so far all you are doing is making yourself look like a tit.
Wouldn't the Wave of Destruction hit for 7350% weapon damage since every stacks adds 350% to the original Wave?
350% + 350% * 20 = 7350%
But I still have a hard time seeing how this will outperform TR, Archon has a blatant weakness and it also requires you to be in close range in order to utilize its full potential.
it is actually 7500% weapon damage at 20 stacks, 350X20=7500 as to your issue with the viability, it is "fine" to stay in melee range after they changed the 4p with the season exclusive belt power, and that you gain defense from the set bonus now, and with the swami in the cube (which is pretty much mandatory as your "armour" slot item), you will be fine for the ~20 seconds you are out of archon form for and with obsidian ring of the zodiac in the cube (again one of those where you will likely not be using anything else for this slot) that downtime is cut even shorter.
I am well aware that the post I referred to was over a month old. All I was saying was that he shouldn't make matter-of-fact-statements where he was simply guessing. People are so sure about things that in reality they just dont know (and in this case could not know). My statement still stands. I am also not sure why you have to insult me or assume that I didnt think before writing. Especially when you were not even able to read my short post carefully enough to get the point of it.
Besides, the chantodo bonus is not additive in the real sense, as it is just a damage source of its own. And the fact that archon stacks give additive damage (+ add armor, resistances and attackspeed) doesnt mean you cant still bump that damage up further by other multiplicators. Of course, stacking different multiplicators is more effective in general, however in the end it doesnt matter whether the damage is additive as long as it gives you higher total damage. The fact that the Tals bonus is multiplicative doesnt mean that it is superior, it can easily be far under that of Vyrs despite being multiplicative.
Yeah true dat, it only cleared a Gr 69 with non perfect gear and under 800 paragon+ under 70 gems, but tal still takes a dump on it I guess. Why are people always claiming things so matter of fact-confidently, when they just are not even able to know those things at a certain point in time?!
you do realise you posted in a thread that is over a month old, and at the time it was posted it was assumed it wouldn't compete with tals due to how damage modifiers work, in that archon damage, and chantodo's set bonus damage is all additive, and is additive with self/party buffs also making it vastly inferior to tals in that regard, furthermore some of the information in the OP is now obslete and incorrect, therefore either needs updating or taking it very liberally with a view to being a rough guide on some basic mechanics and nothing more, in future think before posting, because so far all you are doing is making yourself look like a tit.
his post seemed accurate, if anything he made YOU look like an ass, or better yet you did that yourself...
OT: with the changes that went into the PTR last week archon seems to be in a good spot,
Did some testing (no fishing and no pylons to adulterate) with ancient gear all around with a couple of wiz setups:
Full tal'rasha cleared up to 56 np, after that u need some luck,
Del'rasha cleared 56 np has less dmg potential than full tal with F+R and CoE but makes it up in survivability
Full vyr with all the over 9000 items it needs cleared 56 the easiest of them all
and finally i even tested firebird with F+R and managed to also do a 56, was the hardest of them all.
Now granted 56 is not top tier, but after that point pylons + rift density etc etc play a major role in your sucess and i wanted to test with the minimum influences possible, to me all sets are kinda nice until 60, after that point the rift mechanics themselves favor some sets over others.
Wouldn't the Wave of Destruction hit for 7350% weapon damage since every stacks adds 350% to the original Wave?
350% + 350% * 20 = 7350%
But I still have a hard time seeing how this will outperform TR, Archon has a blatant weakness and it also requires you to be in close range in order to utilize its full potential.
it is actually 7500% weapon damage at 20 stacks, 350X20=7500 as to your issue with the viability, it is "fine" to stay in melee range after they changed the 4p with the season exclusive belt power, and that you gain defense from the set bonus now, and with the swami in the cube (which is pretty much mandatory as your "armour" slot item), you will be fine for the ~20 seconds you are out of archon form for and with obsidian ring of the zodiac in the cube (again one of those where you will likely not be using anything else for this slot) that downtime is cut even shorter.
350*20=7000 if this number is added on to the effect it would be 7350% (IDK how much damage it really does, I was only wondering) but whatever it is it doesn't make a difference, to elaborate what I meant by a blatant weakness: I was talking about is the fact you won't be able to utilize Focus/Restraint which is a separate 2.25x mulitplier, not to mention TR which is a 7x mulitiplier plus the fact that Archon stacks are pure sheet dps.
Ofc the melee thing is fine in most cases but not all.
What's locking vyr's+chantodo out of F&R?
As far as the 7x damage mnultiplier on Tal's... Just think about whatever your sheet +damage. If it's 100% then you need 100 stacks to be the same damage bonus as tal's. If it's 200% then you need 200 stacks. The question is not whether or not it's additive, the question is whether or not you can get that many stacks.
Wouldn't the Wave of Destruction hit for 7350% weapon damage since every stacks adds 350% to the original Wave?
350% + 350% * 20 = 7350%
But I still have a hard time seeing how this will outperform TR, Archon has a blatant weakness and it also requires you to be in close range in order to utilize its full potential.
Once you equip the chantodo set you always have one stack, you don't need to build the first one, only increase it up to 20. So it is 20 x 350 = 7000% at max stacks.
Kinda forgot I made the post over on this forum, I made updates to the one on the official forum and just brought them over here. Other than the chantodo stacking bug being fixed and the changing 4-set piece the rest of the information didn't change for this latest PTR patch.
Yeah true dat, it only cleared a Gr 69 with non perfect gear and under 800 paragon+ under 70 gems, but tal still takes a dump on it I guess. Why are people always claiming things so matter of fact-confidently, when they just are not even able to know those things at a certain point in time?!
you do realise you posted in a thread that is over a month old, and at the time it was posted it was assumed it wouldn't compete with tals due to how damage modifiers work, in that archon damage, and chantodo's set bonus damage is all additive, and is additive with self/party buffs also making it vastly inferior to tals in that regard, furthermore some of the information in the OP is now obslete and incorrect, therefore either needs updating or taking it very liberally with a view to being a rough guide on some basic mechanics and nothing more, in future think before posting, because so far all you are doing is making yourself look like a tit.
his post seemed accurate, if anything he made YOU look like an ass, or better yet you did that yourself...
OT: with the changes that went into the PTR last week archon seems to be in a good spot,
Did some testing (no fishing and no pylons to adulterate) with ancient gear all around with a couple of wiz setups:
Full tal'rasha cleared up to 56 np, after that u need some luck,
Del'rasha cleared 56 np has less dmg potential than full tal with F+R and CoE but makes it up in survivability
Full vyr with all the over 9000 items it needs cleared 56 the easiest of them all
and finally i even tested firebird with F+R and managed to also do a 56, was the hardest of them all.
Now granted 56 is not top tier, but after that point pylons + rift density etc etc play a major role in your sucess and i wanted to test with the minimum influences possible, to me all sets are kinda nice until 60, after that point the rift mechanics themselves favor some sets over others.
TLDR: Vyr is fine.
due to the way he worded his response, it appeared to me to be sarcastic, and actually trying to mock BDF, therefore, i did the same by stating that 350x20=7500 but i guess you failed in understanding sarcasm, should i have put a load of emoticons or something to make it super duper uber clear?
the nerf to the belt has left vyr-archon in a bad spot, the fact you think it is good is laughable, 56 is not even close to top tier, previous PTR version i was clearling 63-64 which based on each tier being an order of magnitude 12 higher than the previous tier, you were handling a tier that was ~84-96 times EASIER than what i was doing, furthermore the main source of damage in archon form is the set bonus from chantodo's, not archon itself, and in this regard tals is the best wizard set by such a big margin it doesn't even bear mentioning, it is like trying to compare a light aircraft (firebird), a jumbo jet (vyr), the starship enterprise (tals). Get my point yet or do i need to make it even simpler?
Archon spells do not count as resource spenders/generators, the buffs only last 5 secs meaning you would have at least 15 sec downtime if you chose to use it (15 sec downtime on a 2.25 separate multiplier is already a huge loss). Archon stacks are generated upon attack and does not correlate to the amount of enemies attacked, and let's be honest: this is where you'll gain most of your stacks. This means you IAS will set upper limit to how many stacks you can get, with the nerfs to the belt we already lost 30% of that initial IAS. IAS is only for building stacks and afaik useless damage wise since your WoD won't scale with it (and your archon skills won't even come close to the WoD damage).
Ah. Forgot about that wonderful clause. I suppose we have to start considering an alternative damage bonus source from rings at that point.
Considering a perfect scenario without downtime on your attacks and with optimal Swami usage you would be able to build up stacks indefinitely. However I doubt this would ever be the case since even a fraction of second would harm your stacks considerably, not to mention the worst case scenario where you die.
Mmmm... Depends on how close you cut it with the Swami and CDR I suppose?
Now for the last part (and do correct me if I'm wrong) each Archon stack will give you +6% in the "Damage increased by Skills" catagory, so 100 stacks would give you +600%. This is additive with your increased elemental damage and other skill/passive bonuses (i.e. Glass Cannon) whereas TR is a +600% multiplicative damage will give you a clean 7x multiplier. Considering a case where we only use +40% elemental dmg on our gear the calculations would be following:
Vyr's:
100 * (1.4 + 6) = 740
TR:
100 * 1.4 * 7 = 980
To figure out how many stacks you'd need to compete with TR you'd have you solve this equation:
solve(100*(1.4+x)=980,x)
But this is assuming the TR wizard isn't running F&R or MW/GC (in this case the required stacks would be even higher, IDK what the highest amount of stacks on PTR are but with the belt nerf I doubt it's close).
TR can also fully utilize Zei's Stone which is yet again another separate multiplier. I was personally looking forward to Vyr since the TR playstyle is very tedious but in the end, only results matter.
TD;DR: Vyr can't compete with TR
You don't really have to solve an equation. TR is (Damage)*(1+6) archon stacks are +6%. If we assume Elemental + Skill + Global are all additive with each other (and I've seen a half dozen conflicting accounts of additivity between the three) then TR = Vyr's when Total Stacks = (Total Damage bonuses +100).
EG If you have +200% additive damage you need 300 stacks to multiply your damage by 7.
The tipping points are basically the performance of the new damage gem and whether WoD is affected by +Damage% from archon stacks. That raw base damage value combined with better single element scaling means as a pure DPS bonus it's quite a bit ahead of meteors if it's going off 1/second. Archon Beam + massive IAS boosts from stacks will result in a rather significant multplier to damage. As long as we can abstract out Fazula's as ~1/2stack/s gains in rifts since you'll never be more than 20s between archons if you're trying to maintain the stacks.
If we make the HORRIBLE assumption that archon will be able to finish rifts without dying and that they retain full stacks we're talking 300 stacks against the RG in a ten minute rift off a perfect nerfed chain.
So it all boils down to whether Archon can manage 100% stack maintenance. In which case you're looking at a 1800% damage bonus by ten minutes into a rift and a 300% Armour/Resist bonus. Doesn't matter what you have for additive bonuses at that point you're doing approximately all the damage. Which is probably related to the belt nerf. So your new point of optimizing is minimizing CC duration and time between packs. And just so you know, at that point Zei's is immaterial because you're looking at a 19x damage multiplier off stacks alone. The set is definitely about snowballing with exponential clear speed increases rather than havin ga solid baseline stat value.
Go forth and test for 100% uptime.
Hell even if the chain just works the first time i na rift maintaining full stacks would have you at like 300 stacks by 10 minutes anyway off attacks.
you CAN'T stack up buffs indefinitely with that item. When the Archon expires, the stacks are turned into a timed buff that expires even if you transform again into Archon ad gain other stacks.
The new stacks for the archon count as a different buff.
Or at least this happened a few weeks ago on PTR.
Still works exactly this way as of 2 minutes ago. You can maintain the Archon buff just fine, but it does not stack indefinitely.. that would be stupid.
ot now I'm reading it again, there is actually a way to keep increasing your stacks, even if it is very hard.
If you manage to enter Archon with the stacks of the Swami, then you start with a considerable bonus to IAS and can manage to amass stacks faster (at least at the start) so to end Archon with more stacks than you started with. Rinse and repeat.
Now I think this is what North meant.
Probably correct.
For reference, the highest stacks I have seen is ~180( i think 184 was the exact number, pre belt nerf) inside a GRift, and that was on around my 4th Archon usage of the run after entering with a buff of around 150ish IIRC.. with channeling.
Density is way to big of a variable to even begin to assume that the buff will keep going higher with subsequent Archon uses through the whole rift, and I think 300 is basically out the question, honestly. Happy to be proven wrong, of course.
Here's a video(Pretty sure this was pre belt nerf, as well) where he hits 194(~5:50 in) with channeling in a 59 GRift.
Bot now I'm reading it again, there is actually a way to keep increasing your stacks, even if it is very hard.
If
you manage to enter Archon with the stacks of the Swami, then you start
with a considerable bonus to IAS and can manage to amass stacks faster
(at least at the start) so to end Archon with more stacks than you
started with. Rinse and repeat.
Now I think this is what North meant.
I'm assuming you're alluding to the interaction between ever increasing attack speed allowing ever more stacks to be accrued from the Vyr 6-set. If so, no you cannot do it indefinitely as you converge on a steady state maximum, unless you have infinite mobs flooding in to grant you stacks on kill.
I spreadsheeted it out if you want to try for yourself:
You can go to File: Download As to download a copy and then you can fiddle with the inputs on the left to see how it affects the graph.
It assumes you use Obsidian Ring, Swamii, 20 stack fazula, cast archon immediately upon its availability (not waiting for chantodo's stacks), that you cast your archon explosion once per second, and that you only use one spell to trigger obsidian ring (so it procs at a rate equal to your APS). I'm not sure if it can go faster.
Also, it doesn't matter if you have a head-start of stacks from kill procs, it still levels out.
Yeah true dat, it only cleared a Gr 69 with non perfect gear and under 800 paragon+ under 70 gems, but tal still takes a dump on it I guess. Why are people always claiming things so matter of fact-confidently, when they just are not even able to know those things at a certain point in time?!
you do realise you posted in a thread that is over a month old, and at the time it was posted it was assumed it wouldn't compete with tals due to how damage modifiers work, in that archon damage, and chantodo's set bonus damage is all additive, and is additive with self/party buffs also making it vastly inferior to tals in that regard, furthermore some of the information in the OP is now obslete and incorrect, therefore either needs updating or taking it very liberally with a view to being a rough guide on some basic mechanics and nothing more, in future think before posting, because so far all you are doing is making yourself look like a tit.
his post seemed accurate, if anything he made YOU look like an ass, or better yet you did that yourself...
OT: with the changes that went into the PTR last week archon seems to be in a good spot,
Did some testing (no fishing and no pylons to adulterate) with ancient gear all around with a couple of wiz setups:
Full tal'rasha cleared up to 56 np, after that u need some luck,
Del'rasha cleared 56 np has less dmg potential than full tal with F+R and CoE but makes it up in survivability
Full vyr with all the over 9000 items it needs cleared 56 the easiest of them all
and finally i even tested firebird with F+R and managed to also do a 56, was the hardest of them all.
Now granted 56 is not top tier, but after that point pylons + rift density etc etc play a major role in your sucess and i wanted to test with the minimum influences possible, to me all sets are kinda nice until 60, after that point the rift mechanics themselves favor some sets over others.
TLDR: Vyr is fine.
due to the way he worded his response, it appeared to me to be sarcastic, and actually trying to mock BDF, therefore, i did the same by stating that 350x20=7500 but i guess you failed in understanding sarcasm, should i have put a load of emoticons or something to make it super duper uber clear?
the nerf to the belt has left vyr-archon in a bad spot, the fact you think it is good is laughable, 56 is not even close to top tier, previous PTR version i was clearling 63-64 which based on each tier being an order of magnitude 12 higher than the previous tier, you were handling a tier that was ~84-96 times EASIER than what i was doing, furthermore the main source of damage in archon form is the set bonus from chantodo's, not archon itself, and in this regard tals is the best wizard set by such a big margin it doesn't even bear mentioning, it is like trying to compare a light aircraft (firebird), a jumbo jet (vyr), the starship enterprise (tals). Get my point yet or do i need to make it even simpler?
The only simple thing here seems to be your understanding skills, re-read my post...
Ofc 56 is not top tier i'm not trying to push gr limits on ptr that's just dumb and i have live for that, in which i'm currently in the top 100 eu wiz, you have 52 on live with your better wizard so i doubt you even know how 56+ grifts feel like solo.
Back on topic and to make it even clearer:
56 = good spot to test the strengths and flaws of the sets since it does not need any specific density/mob type/pylon to clear,
it's supposed to be cleared so you can compare it with the other sets.
The cube has many options and variations so really no one knows how it will turn out until properly tested.
With that said, remember the end of season 2? firebird suddently made it into the 60+ group and 50+ solo, (which was top at the time) with a build made popular by avoid wiz after everyone said it was shit for group the entire season...
Just because it's not the fotm it does not mean it sucks, properly used the sets are pretty close to each other (except delsere 6pc which even with 20b+ arcane orbs sucks) ofc one will come out on top (normally the easiest or the more obvious one to play and build) it's literally impossible to have 2 equal power sets in this game... that does not mean some adjustments to bring all the sets even closer is not welcome though.
Yeah true dat, it only cleared a Gr 69 with non perfect gear and under 800 paragon+ under 70 gems, but tal still takes a dump on it I guess. Why are people always claiming things so matter of fact-confidently, when they just are not even able to know those things at a certain point in time?!
you do realise you posted in a thread that is over a month old, and at the time it was posted it was assumed it wouldn't compete with tals due to how damage modifiers work, in that archon damage, and chantodo's set bonus damage is all additive, and is additive with self/party buffs also making it vastly inferior to tals in that regard, furthermore some of the information in the OP is now obslete and incorrect, therefore either needs updating or taking it very liberally with a view to being a rough guide on some basic mechanics and nothing more, in future think before posting, because so far all you are doing is making yourself look like a tit.
his post seemed accurate, if anything he made YOU look like an ass, or better yet you did that yourself...
OT: with the changes that went into the PTR last week archon seems to be in a good spot,
Did some testing (no fishing and no pylons to adulterate) with ancient gear all around with a couple of wiz setups:
Full tal'rasha cleared up to 56 np, after that u need some luck,
Del'rasha cleared 56 np has less dmg potential than full tal with F+R and CoE but makes it up in survivability
Full vyr with all the over 9000 items it needs cleared 56 the easiest of them all
and finally i even tested firebird with F+R and managed to also do a 56, was the hardest of them all.
Now granted 56 is not top tier, but after that point pylons + rift density etc etc play a major role in your sucess and i wanted to test with the minimum influences possible, to me all sets are kinda nice until 60, after that point the rift mechanics themselves favor some sets over others.
TLDR: Vyr is fine.
due to the way he worded his response, it appeared to me to be sarcastic, and actually trying to mock BDF, therefore, i did the same by stating that 350x20=7500 but i guess you failed in understanding sarcasm, should i have put a load of emoticons or something to make it super duper uber clear?
the nerf to the belt has left vyr-archon in a bad spot, the fact you think it is good is laughable, 56 is not even close to top tier, previous PTR version i was clearling 63-64 which based on each tier being an order of magnitude 12 higher than the previous tier, you were handling a tier that was ~84-96 times EASIER than what i was doing, furthermore the main source of damage in archon form is the set bonus from chantodo's, not archon itself, and in this regard tals is the best wizard set by such a big margin it doesn't even bear mentioning, it is like trying to compare a light aircraft (firebird), a jumbo jet (vyr), the starship enterprise (tals). Get my point yet or do i need to make it even simpler?
The only simple thing here seems to be your understanding skills, re-read my post...
Ofc 56 is not top tier i'm not trying to push gr limits on ptr that's just dumb and i have live for that, in which i'm currently in the top 100 eu wiz, you have 52 on live with your better wizard so i doubt you even know how 56+ grifts feel like solo.
Back on topic and to make it even clearer:
56 = good spot to test the strengths and flaws of the sets since it does not need any specific density/mob type/pylon to clear,
it's supposed to be cleared so you can compare it with the other sets.
The cube has many options and variations so really no one knows how it will turn out until properly tested.
With that said, remember the end of season 2? firebird suddently made it into the 60+ group and 50+ solo, (which was top at the time) with a build made popular by avoid wiz after everyone said it was shit for group the entire season...
Just because it's not the fotm it does not mean it sucks, properly used the sets are pretty close to each other (except delsere 6pc which even with 20b+ arcane orbs sucks) ofc one will come out on top (normally the easiest or the more obvious one to play and build) it's literally impossible to have 2 equal power sets in this game... that does not mean some adjustments to bring all the sets even closer is not welcome though.
i'll answer your first point, i cleared 52 solo back at the start of 2.2 which was ~3.5 months ago which at the time of completion was a top 10 EU/top 100 world wizard clear, i have not done many solo grifts since then and certainly none that are considered progress grifts, as i have been working none stop cos you know, real life takes priority, secondly i have cleared 65+ in 4 mans, and as i stated, on PTR is was pusing low-mid 60's solo with the revamped vyr set on season with the belt (full ancient items excluding amulet), in future, don't quote something out of context, because that is just a nasty thing to do, if i felt like it, i could easily clear 60+ solo on live, however i lack the time to dedicate the energy to farming the right rift as it stands and i have no desire to fish for rifts, never have, never will, so your assumption just makes you look like an ass, (cwutididther?).
furthermore, i came up with the EXACT same build idea, but instead of flame blades i used a different skill, and used unity/halo ring BEFORE s2 even started (this was on PTR) then when it went live i brought the idea up in clan chat, to which i was mocked and ridiculed, then after "failvoid" made it more well known and accepted as viable, i got an apology from one person who has consistently been top 10 EU solo wizard since s1/era1, and can give you his details in a private message if you wish to verify this.
and lastly, to further clarify things, i am not merely talking about the sets being compared in the vacuum of the wizard class alone, i'm talking about each set compared together WHILE AT THE SAME TIME comparing it to the other class sets, which currently wizard cannot compete with on ANY LEVEL as a result of the nerf to the season belt for season wizards, barbs are gonna be the strongest class by a huge margin, monks are in an ok spot with the new set and the raiment set if they want to keep playing that instead of farming up the new set (which i personally think is more of a T10 farming set than a solo push grift set but that's just my opinion), then you have demon hunters who are pretty much unchanged outside of the added power the cube now gives and the new items they are recieving that further enhance current sets, witch doctors are also very much viable now as they have the choice of multiple pet based builds using multiple different gear sets (zuni/helltooth/arachyr), again being boosted heavily by the cube thereby removing the limitation of not being able to sue mask of jeram/carnevil etc as they need zuni helm for set bonus or w/e, and then you have the wizard, so badly in need of a revamp as the skills are so anti synergy it is laughable, the sets we have are the only reason we are relevant, and they are dealing our damage, not our skills, which as a life long wizard fan, makes me immensely sad, so yeah, i can keep going on but i'll stop now, my main point was that i can't see wizards being able to compete across classes anymore with the current set of changes, along with the all the major gameplay changes coming on top of class specific changes, and these nerfs are not helping anyone, and were totally uncalled for.
The Vyr 2-Set gives me all archon runes, does it matter which archon rune I put on my bar?
How do Archon Stacks work? What do they do?
How do I build more Archon Buff Stacks?
How do Chantodo's Stacks work? What do they do?
How do I build more Chantodo's Buff Stacks?
Thank you for this !
the question is: is it viable for high end grifts (group) or tal rasha still reins supreme?
The competitiveness of the set is immaterial to how it works.
That being said, even once we get the season-only belt it is miles behind tal's.
Yeah true dat, it only cleared a Gr 69 with non perfect gear and under 800 paragon+ under 70 gems, but tal still takes a dump on it I guess. Why are people always claiming things so matter of fact-confidently, when they just are not even able to know those things at a certain point in time?!
you do realise you posted in a thread that is over a month old, and at the time it was posted it was assumed it wouldn't compete with tals due to how damage modifiers work, in that archon damage, and chantodo's set bonus damage is all additive, and is additive with self/party buffs also making it vastly inferior to tals in that regard, furthermore some of the information in the OP is now obslete and incorrect, therefore either needs updating or taking it very liberally with a view to being a rough guide on some basic mechanics and nothing more, in future think before posting, because so far all you are doing is making yourself look like a tit.
it is actually 7500% weapon damage at 20 stacks, 350X20=7500 as to your issue with the viability, it is "fine" to stay in melee range after they changed the 4p with the season exclusive belt power, and that you gain defense from the set bonus now, and with the swami in the cube (which is pretty much mandatory as your "armour" slot item), you will be fine for the ~20 seconds you are out of archon form for and with obsidian ring of the zodiac in the cube (again one of those where you will likely not be using anything else for this slot) that downtime is cut even shorter.
I am well aware that the post I referred to was over a month old. All I was saying was that he shouldn't make matter-of-fact-statements where he was simply guessing. People are so sure about things that in reality they just dont know (and in this case could not know). My statement still stands. I am also not sure why you have to insult me or assume that I didnt think before writing. Especially when you were not even able to read my short post carefully enough to get the point of it.
Besides, the chantodo bonus is not additive in the real sense, as it is just a damage source of its own. And the fact that archon stacks give additive damage (+ add armor, resistances and attackspeed) doesnt mean you cant still bump that damage up further by other multiplicators. Of course, stacking different multiplicators is more effective in general, however in the end it doesnt matter whether the damage is additive as long as it gives you higher total damage. The fact that the Tals bonus is multiplicative doesnt mean that it is superior, it can easily be far under that of Vyrs despite being multiplicative.
his post seemed accurate, if anything he made YOU look like an ass, or better yet you did that yourself...
OT: with the changes that went into the PTR last week archon seems to be in a good spot,
Did some testing (no fishing and no pylons to adulterate) with ancient gear all around with a couple of wiz setups:
Full tal'rasha cleared up to 56 np, after that u need some luck,
Del'rasha cleared 56 np has less dmg potential than full tal with F+R and CoE but makes it up in survivability
Full vyr with all the over 9000 items it needs cleared 56 the easiest of them all
and finally i even tested firebird with F+R and managed to also do a 56, was the hardest of them all.
Now granted 56 is not top tier, but after that point pylons + rift density etc etc play a major role in your sucess and i wanted to test with the minimum influences possible, to me all sets are kinda nice until 60, after that point the rift mechanics themselves favor some sets over others.
TLDR: Vyr is fine.
Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
What's locking vyr's+chantodo out of F&R?
As far as the 7x damage mnultiplier on Tal's... Just think about whatever your sheet +damage. If it's 100% then you need 100 stacks to be the same damage bonus as tal's. If it's 200% then you need 200 stacks. The question is not whether or not it's additive, the question is whether or not you can get that many stacks.
Once you equip the chantodo set you always have one stack, you don't need to build the first one, only increase it up to 20. So it is 20 x 350 = 7000% at max stacks.
Kinda forgot I made the post over on this forum, I made updates to the one on the official forum and just brought them over here. Other than the chantodo stacking bug being fixed and the changing 4-set piece the rest of the information didn't change for this latest PTR patch.
due to the way he worded his response, it appeared to me to be sarcastic, and actually trying to mock BDF, therefore, i did the same by stating that 350x20=7500 but i guess you failed in understanding sarcasm, should i have put a load of emoticons or something to make it super duper uber clear?
the nerf to the belt has left vyr-archon in a bad spot, the fact you think it is good is laughable, 56 is not even close to top tier, previous PTR version i was clearling 63-64 which based on each tier being an order of magnitude 12 higher than the previous tier, you were handling a tier that was ~84-96 times EASIER than what i was doing, furthermore the main source of damage in archon form is the set bonus from chantodo's, not archon itself, and in this regard tals is the best wizard set by such a big margin it doesn't even bear mentioning, it is like trying to compare a light aircraft (firebird), a jumbo jet (vyr), the starship enterprise (tals). Get my point yet or do i need to make it even simpler?
Ah. Forgot about that wonderful clause. I suppose we have to start considering an alternative damage bonus source from rings at that point.
Mmmm... Depends on how close you cut it with the Swami and CDR I suppose?
You don't really have to solve an equation. TR is (Damage)*(1+6) archon stacks are +6%. If we assume Elemental + Skill + Global are all additive with each other (and I've seen a half dozen conflicting accounts of additivity between the three) then TR = Vyr's when Total Stacks = (Total Damage bonuses +100).
EG If you have +200% additive damage you need 300 stacks to multiply your damage by 7.
The tipping points are basically the performance of the new damage gem and whether WoD is affected by +Damage% from archon stacks. That raw base damage value combined with better single element scaling means as a pure DPS bonus it's quite a bit ahead of meteors if it's going off 1/second. Archon Beam + massive IAS boosts from stacks will result in a rather significant multplier to damage. As long as we can abstract out Fazula's as ~1/2stack/s gains in rifts since you'll never be more than 20s between archons if you're trying to maintain the stacks.
If we make the HORRIBLE assumption that archon will be able to finish rifts without dying and that they retain full stacks we're talking 300 stacks against the RG in a ten minute rift off a perfect nerfed chain.
So it all boils down to whether Archon can manage 100% stack maintenance. In which case you're looking at a 1800% damage bonus by ten minutes into a rift and a 300% Armour/Resist bonus. Doesn't matter what you have for additive bonuses at that point you're doing approximately all the damage. Which is probably related to the belt nerf. So your new point of optimizing is minimizing CC duration and time between packs. And just so you know, at that point Zei's is immaterial because you're looking at a 19x damage multiplier off stacks alone. The set is definitely about snowballing with exponential clear speed increases rather than havin ga solid baseline stat value.
Go forth and test for 100% uptime.
Hell even if the chain just works the first time i na rift maintaining full stacks would have you at like 300 stacks by 10 minutes anyway off attacks.
Still works exactly this way as of 2 minutes ago. You can maintain the Archon buff just fine, but it does not stack indefinitely.. that would be stupid.
Probably correct.
For reference, the highest stacks I have seen is ~180( i think 184 was the exact number, pre belt nerf) inside a GRift, and that was on around my 4th Archon usage of the run after entering with a buff of around 150ish IIRC.. with channeling.
Density is way to big of a variable to even begin to assume that the buff will keep going higher with subsequent Archon uses through the whole rift, and I think 300 is basically out the question, honestly. Happy to be proven wrong, of course.
Here's a video(Pretty sure this was pre belt nerf, as well) where he hits 194(~5:50 in) with channeling in a 59 GRift.
I'm assuming you're alluding to the interaction between ever increasing attack speed allowing ever more stacks to be accrued from the Vyr 6-set. If so, no you cannot do it indefinitely as you converge on a steady state maximum, unless you have infinite mobs flooding in to grant you stacks on kill.
I spreadsheeted it out if you want to try for yourself:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ISaWrDaWK8K40f83QMol1uaIYoCbq8bjQjrI6gqJY3Y/edit#gid=0
You can go to File: Download As to download a copy and then you can fiddle with the inputs on the left to see how it affects the graph.
It assumes you use Obsidian Ring, Swamii, 20 stack fazula, cast archon immediately upon its availability (not waiting for chantodo's stacks), that you cast your archon explosion once per second, and that you only use one spell to trigger obsidian ring (so it procs at a rate equal to your APS). I'm not sure if it can go faster.
Also, it doesn't matter if you have a head-start of stacks from kill procs, it still levels out.
The only simple thing here seems to be your understanding skills, re-read my post...
Ofc 56 is not top tier i'm not trying to push gr limits on ptr that's just dumb and i have live for that, in which i'm currently in the top 100 eu wiz, you have 52 on live with your better wizard so i doubt you even know how 56+ grifts feel like solo.
Back on topic and to make it even clearer:
56 = good spot to test the strengths and flaws of the sets since it does not need any specific density/mob type/pylon to clear,
it's supposed to be cleared so you can compare it with the other sets.
The cube has many options and variations so really no one knows how it will turn out until properly tested.
With that said, remember the end of season 2? firebird suddently made it into the 60+ group and 50+ solo, (which was top at the time) with a build made popular by avoid wiz after everyone said it was shit for group the entire season...
Just because it's not the fotm it does not mean it sucks, properly used the sets are pretty close to each other (except delsere 6pc which even with 20b+ arcane orbs sucks) ofc one will come out on top (normally the easiest or the more obvious one to play and build) it's literally impossible to have 2 equal power sets in this game... that does not mean some adjustments to bring all the sets even closer is not welcome though.
Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
i'll answer your first point, i cleared 52 solo back at the start of 2.2 which was ~3.5 months ago which at the time of completion was a top 10 EU/top 100 world wizard clear, i have not done many solo grifts since then and certainly none that are considered progress grifts, as i have been working none stop cos you know, real life takes priority, secondly i have cleared 65+ in 4 mans, and as i stated, on PTR is was pusing low-mid 60's solo with the revamped vyr set on season with the belt (full ancient items excluding amulet), in future, don't quote something out of context, because that is just a nasty thing to do, if i felt like it, i could easily clear 60+ solo on live, however i lack the time to dedicate the energy to farming the right rift as it stands and i have no desire to fish for rifts, never have, never will, so your assumption just makes you look like an ass, (cwutididther?).
furthermore, i came up with the EXACT same build idea, but instead of flame blades i used a different skill, and used unity/halo ring BEFORE s2 even started (this was on PTR) then when it went live i brought the idea up in clan chat, to which i was mocked and ridiculed, then after "failvoid" made it more well known and accepted as viable, i got an apology from one person who has consistently been top 10 EU solo wizard since s1/era1, and can give you his details in a private message if you wish to verify this.
and lastly, to further clarify things, i am not merely talking about the sets being compared in the vacuum of the wizard class alone, i'm talking about each set compared together WHILE AT THE SAME TIME comparing it to the other class sets, which currently wizard cannot compete with on ANY LEVEL as a result of the nerf to the season belt for season wizards, barbs are gonna be the strongest class by a huge margin, monks are in an ok spot with the new set and the raiment set if they want to keep playing that instead of farming up the new set (which i personally think is more of a T10 farming set than a solo push grift set but that's just my opinion), then you have demon hunters who are pretty much unchanged outside of the added power the cube now gives and the new items they are recieving that further enhance current sets, witch doctors are also very much viable now as they have the choice of multiple pet based builds using multiple different gear sets (zuni/helltooth/arachyr), again being boosted heavily by the cube thereby removing the limitation of not being able to sue mask of jeram/carnevil etc as they need zuni helm for set bonus or w/e, and then you have the wizard, so badly in need of a revamp as the skills are so anti synergy it is laughable, the sets we have are the only reason we are relevant, and they are dealing our damage, not our skills, which as a life long wizard fan, makes me immensely sad, so yeah, i can keep going on but i'll stop now, my main point was that i can't see wizards being able to compete across classes anymore with the current set of changes, along with the all the major gameplay changes coming on top of class specific changes, and these nerfs are not helping anyone, and were totally uncalled for.
Stop quoting walls of text pls.