I said it- your similarities are weak. Yep they are. The only comparable one I see is mass confusion. Horrify is different from Necro's terrify. Go watch the gameplay if you are unsure. And also your similarities are extremely broad. If I begin to break them down one by one, I can predict with 100% certainty that you would have said I am being nit picky about the details. Seriously- zombie wall is the same as bone wall but with damage.
How about shit like- bash is the same as firebomb except you need to be close.
I told you- you are embarrassing yourself.
You would have had better luck with the druid really.
My similarities are not broad. I have given you specific reasons to how each skill is similar to each other. If you cannot see how a bone wall which prevents further movement and a zombie wall which prevents further movement are not the same then there is no way I can continue this. One just attacks now. Isn't is possible that if they added the necro then they could have just added some damage to the bonewall. The only other skill similar to is the flame wall but it does not prevent movement which is the key aspect of both of the skills. Please be nit picky and "tear" apart the other 10 skills I have commented on. With bash and firebomb, you are only comparing damage spell to damage spell, and not taking into consideration play style of these skills. I have with all of mine. I did not compare fire skull to teeth as ranged damaging attacks. I compared game mechanics and abilities of one skill to another.
The reason why I was comparing the necro with others is to show you how easy it was to make those 'supposed' links that you worked hard to imagine. But of course you failed to see the point.
Again showing more comparisons only furthers your cause of the need to add him. Also, my comparison to the WD is much more in depth and has many more examples then any of yours. You have only compared to archetypes/styles where I have given depth and reasoning.
Now tell me, which part of blizz's ranting on how they were working on the WD and still leaving place for the Nekro, did not get into your head?
And which part where they said that the 2 classes were not alike didn't you understand?
There was no rant. There was one interview with one employee over a year and a half ago about the difference and ability to add. Things have changed greatly since then. I also understand he can be added, just that he shouldn't.
Like I said if Necro returns he won't be exactly like in D2. And 'almost perfect' doesn't mean he cannot be modified. Just cannot be improved significantly. But who cares if thousands are able to have fun playing with him?
this is exactly my point. If they add him it is not for gameplay but audience approval. To me this is not what should be done. Many people want D3 to be just like D2 but it shouldn't. New game = new characters.
A third of the skills? Lol. Ill just assume you got all of them nailed down just for the sake of showing you something.
If you are having trouble with the maths, I'll do this complex bit of calculation for you- that leaves 2/3 of skills for WD... Imagine that...?
A 1/3 is a lot to have in common when they are striving for each character's uniqueness. Name any other characters who have 1/3 of their skills in common with another amongst the D3 characters. Remember, we are not comparing D2 and D3. Also, do not forget the two core mechanics of each class being similar. This is important to the decision of including him. They will not have two archers, two casters, two tanks, two agile melee. They want uniqueness and so do I.
Supposing they are feeling damn lazy with the necro and supposing they'll be bringing him back, they could actually leave 2/3 of him INTACT!!! But then again that's blizz we are talking about, they'll revamp the char, I am pretty sure of it and with your level of imagination Scyber I am sure you can see a dozen variations and possibilities for each of the Necro's skill.
This cannot be used as an argument because Blizzard said that they do not want to change him, not me.
Too complex to understand maybe?
I understand everything you are saying.
Your feeble comparisons are a complete fail. Neither me nor blizz sees the point that you are desperately trying to make because you do not want to see the necro in D3.
My comparisons are only feeble because you call them that. You have not proven in anyway how they are feeble in context of this debate. You merely say they are and that no further explanation is needed or warranted. I could do the same for yours but I prefer facts and ideas. As for Blizzard, they do see this and that is why they are not adding him initially. Please do not turn the "if we want to, he is different ENOUGH" as "he is nothing like the WD and will be in D3" statement so many have taken it for. I am not saying that the Necro will not be in D3, just that I do not want him to be and for these reasons.
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I agree that a necromancer and a witch doctor would be good together because of the similarities of looks and skills. But isn't this thread really old or something? And LOL at the argument above me.
One just attacks now. Isn't is possible that if they added the necro then they could have just added some damage to the bonewall.
You high or something? Now you are talking about changing the Nekro's skill before he even makes it into the game so the 2 skills might have a similarity?
The only other skill similar to is the flame wall but it does not prevent movement which is the key aspect of both of the skills.
Flame wall... What?.
Please be nit picky and "tear" apart the other 10 skills I have commented on. With bash and firebomb, you are only comparing damage spell to damage spell, and not taking into consideration play style of these skills. I have with all of mine. I did not compare fire skull to teeth as ranged damaging attacks. I compared game mechanics and abilities of one skill to another.
That is wishful thinking. Like I would actually take the pain when there's like a shitload of people in the thread who already did it...
And just lol at the way you tried to counter the zombie wall argument. You had to change the necro's skill for that. Pathetic. And your comparisons remain broad because it limits the skills to prevent movement when one is actually doing damage. The same goes for the others. If you are too lazy to see it, I won't be helping you. Continue living in your fantasy.
Again showing more comparisons only furthers your cause of the need to add him. Also, my comparison to the WD is much more in depth and has many more examples then any of yours. You have only compared to archetypes/styles where I have given depth and reasoning.
Depth and reasoning? No shit! I am amazed. Seriously I am. Just read my previous posts really when I was actually taking the pain to explain things. If i can compare necro to barb, you do realize if what you are saying is true, the barb and WD would share similar skills and in so doing drowning your uniqueness idea.
There was no rant. There was one interview with one employee over a year and a half ago about the difference and ability to add. Things have changed greatly since then. I also understand he can be added, just that he shouldn't.
Wishful thinking.
this is exactly my point. If they add him it is not for gameplay but audience approval. To me this is not what should be done. Many people want D3 to be just like D2 but it shouldn't. New game = new characters.
Oh noes...the barb. oh shit! Blizz has already screwed with that idea of yours. And they might do it again.
A 1/3 is a lot to have in common when they are striving for each character's uniqueness. Name any other characters who have 1/3 of their skills in common with another amongst the D3 characters. Remember, we are not comparing D2 and D3. Also, do not forget the two core mechanics of each class being similar. This is important to the decision of including him. They will not have two archers, two casters, two tanks, two agile melee. They want uniqueness and so do I.
Pfft...complete failure at seeing the point in the 1/3 story but whatever.
They want uniqueness and that is why they said the WD was unique and there was still place for the necromancer.
This cannot be used as an argument because Blizzard said that they do not want to change him, not me.
Wishful thinking. That's what it is.
Please do not turn the "if we want to, he is different ENOUGH" as "he is nothing like the WD and will be in D3" statement so many have taken it for. I am not saying that the Necro will not be in D3, just that I do not want him to be and for these reasons.
Now, now...where the hell did that one come from? If we want to, he is different enough? LOL
How about if you want to, they can be similar enough? That's all I see.
You are being lazy. Do your research properly. Your so-called specific reasons are so broad you need to compensate by inventing skills not yet in the game. That was only for 1. Just apply to the 10 others really. I am not going to do this for you.
So I had another post saying other stuff on why I believe what I believe but I have decided to ask you if you would just like to agree to disagree on this situation. We obviously both strongly feel the way we do on this subject and no amount of discussion back and forth will change this. So I respect your opinion on the matter and call to an end to this debate (at least on my thread, others are free to discuss the matter further elsewhere).
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Holy smokes, im not even gone for 24 hours and there are........ a Sh@#$t load of new posts,
I hate to ignore your "read the mutha @#$en thread before you mutha @#$en post" rule nek, but I just dont give a damn, moderator would be smart and close this ridiculous thread,
you all act like we are discussing the fate of diablo 3 as we know it.
WD does not equal necro, there I dont give half a rats ass, your totally right
I just find it funny that you destroy our theory by saying, 'well you can compare the skills of any character to another, ie barb and necro' well, then doesnt the barb and necro have some things in common by your own logic ?
all I was saying was, Wd and necro have some things in common, ie the skills, which according to you, so we agree, can compare skills between any two characters, your not going to argue with your own logic now are you?.
some skills resemble other skills, why cant we just agree on that and find better posts to make some where else? seriously this thread is one of the biggest wastes of time.
Surprisingly enough I am very much with Scyber on the new char for D3 issue.
BUT...i didn't go and 'find' reasons on why the game should be like this. The barb has returned and so as so not to spark rants on why their own favorite chars from D2 should return, blizz has said they have not a strong desire to bring old chars.
Since the WD seemed to have curses and summon (which actually he doesn't- he only got horrify and mass confusion there, and 5 zombie dogs and 15 skeletons will not remotely offer the same gamplay ) and that that was a necromancer trademark, people started to wonder whether he 'replaced' the necromancer. Turns out it was no so. The developers say on the matter was that the each class on D3 were unique and that the WD is being made with place left for the necromancer should they consider bringing him back.
This comparing of skills issue is only applicable for mass confusion which feels exactly the same as necro's confuse spell. However what I might think on the matter becomes interesting when people having played the WD report the guy is actually different. Yes skills are similar all over the place and not just between necro and WD which is why I was taking the pain in former posts to illustrate it and that it doesn't affect a char's uniqueness.
In my opinion they are not similar enough.
In Scyber's opinion, they are.
out of curiosity does barbarian even = barbarian ?
the new barbarian looks like he will play a little different then the old barb (thank goodness)
Well his skills' effects look absolutely badass.
As for gameplay, I think it's more the new mechanics in place that will make him different to how the old barb played- i mean the presence of health orbs, use of runes...etc..etc..
to be honest i think the witch doctor plays exactly like the necro does in the current patch
since the necro's summon spells dont really compete in hell unless he has summon skeleton and mastery at like lvl 35
or he pours all his points into golem spells
the necromancer's most powerful builds have always revolved around slight uses of curses with spells like bone spear and bone armor (sometimes bone spirit as well for pvp and boss fights)
i think they could put both classes into the game though, but make the necromancer into a more dedicated summoner
adding a new curse damage type that made summons do more damage would be a cool twist with the necromancer mixed with bone spells doing arcane damage
poison being completely removed and the effects of some of his previous curses implemented into damage spell forms
they can also add sub types to curse so that some spells would strengthen physical summons, while another form would strengthen magical summons, or just make a different curse effect for every spell =3
They have the rune system which modify how the skill actually works. They even mentioned something about monster dropping skills. With all the traits + runes it could actually make the summons strong enough to withstand even hell difficulty.
to be honest i think the witch doctor plays exactly like the necro does in the current patch
since the necro's summon spells dont really compete in hell unless he has summon skeleton and mastery at like lvl 35
or he pours all his points into golem spells
the necromancer's most powerful builds have always revolved around slight uses of curses with spells like bone spear and bone armor (sometimes bone spirit as well for pvp and boss fights)
i think they could put both classes into the game though, but make the necromancer into a more dedicated summoner
adding a new curse damage type that made summons do more damage would be a cool twist with the necromancer mixed with bone spells doing arcane damage
poison being completely removed and the effects of some of his previous curses implemented into damage spell forms
they can also add sub types to curse so that some spells would strengthen physical summons, while another form would strengthen magical summons, or just make a different curse effect for every spell =3
Necro was never meant to be a pure summoner. You can try a pure summoner
I have made a pure summoner (All skills in the summon tree)(Hardcore and single Player untwinked) and defeated Hell. It is not to difficult to get skill levels to over 30. You can get summoner affix on magic wand and necro shield (+3 to summoner tab). The wand you can buy in stores. The wand does not even have to be an elite or exceptional quality since you will not be dealing direct damage. The shield is more difficult but you can get it as well. Like wise the shied does not have to be an elite or exceptional since you want the skills and if possible resists. It was tough in Hell but it is doable if you take your time. It was not a fast killer in Hell.
[edit]
Necro had curses that that boosted the summons or party with different curses. One of the curses that is under appreciated is the curse Weaken. It is one great curse.
I do not think that the Necro would be in one of the expansions. I can see a class that has a larger focus on summons. I think the class might be something like a Cleric/Ranger. The class can use Prayers that act like curses. The Class can turn undead into helpers for a period of time. I can see the class can befriend different animals for assistance. I can see the class be skilled in some of the melee skills as well as using slings or some of the Paladin skills of D2 for ranged combat.
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This man deserves much thanking for writing such an epic post. I find it disheartening that everyone thinks the Necromancer class should just vanish but really be implemented and updated to fit the current times that have changed. I really hope the necromancer makes it into the future expansions of this game.
I never understood why people compare Necromancers to Witch Doctors, they share very few things. If anything, the Witch Doctor is more of a Druid then a Necromancer.
But this is logic, so I am certain nobody will read it. :rolleyes:
Looking at the major debates few pages back, I realize the person who's on my side has the photo of the only character I really have problem with in D3. (Obviously it could be the first choice for his character creation since he really likes looking at it =P)
And Scybor? Posting plotwise concept, debating about the character's age? Six month ago I will go exclusively on Necro's side. While present me still want the medieval element the character himself possesses with.
And I still favor skeleton walls/minions/shields. But I've made my peace with Necro's comeback not gonna happen. And I was soothed by Witch Doctor first skill, Skull of Flame (love at first sight for the skill.)
A side from all this, I will never debate for necro's existence plotwise, it simply doesn't worth the focuse from me. But I'll be glad and continue to appreciate the development team for implementing some of Necro's signature into the current replacement.
However, the exploding pets is what still makes me a cynic for the pet usage being not implemented well (Blizzard twitters the fetish army will have runes to make skeleton fetishes? Great. Exploding Skeletons? Jeez I dunno, well there's GOT TO BE SOMEONE out there who has a better idea of how minions should function!)
There really should be a more sophisticated stand for the usage of minions, and this statement is not simply for specific players with specific interest to his gameplay. The gameplay value for minions had truely never been implemented well in D2.
If there can be simple instructions to micro the minions, the builds surrounding a summoning-doc can be more strategically valued.
Actually, at the moment, the Sacrifice skill of the WD is the only thing that makes him and his pets interact someway. Anyway, i was hoping for more complex pet mechanics when I first saw the WD (the whole pet buff and skill directed to your pet story).
Imo if most of the WD's skill sticks to area of damage and disables he will end up playing to much like the wizard. I was hoping for a true pet class archetype. However we need to put out hands in the class first, the game is not even in beta yet, it's impossible to jude this kind of thing.
Well he seems to have many skills that use "pets" as the projectile (ie Zombie Charger). And there also seems to be some ability to turn things into a persistent pet through runes (ie the Giant Toad from Plague of Toads). The mongrel just seems to be the "main" pet. Theres also a "Gargantuan" that we haven't seen, which is described as a "large zombie follower." That being said, he certainly seems to be a spellcaster heavy pet class, and it leaves open (kinda) the option for a pet-heavy spellcaster, as he doesn't really seem to be enough pets to become a zookeeper with the Witch Doctor. We'll have to see how many runes can turn a spell into a pet that follows you around.
Again showing more comparisons only furthers your cause of the need to add him. Also, my comparison to the WD is much more in depth and has many more examples then any of yours. You have only compared to archetypes/styles where I have given depth and reasoning.
There was no rant. There was one interview with one employee over a year and a half ago about the difference and ability to add. Things have changed greatly since then. I also understand he can be added, just that he shouldn't.
this is exactly my point. If they add him it is not for gameplay but audience approval. To me this is not what should be done. Many people want D3 to be just like D2 but it shouldn't. New game = new characters.
A 1/3 is a lot to have in common when they are striving for each character's uniqueness. Name any other characters who have 1/3 of their skills in common with another amongst the D3 characters. Remember, we are not comparing D2 and D3. Also, do not forget the two core mechanics of each class being similar. This is important to the decision of including him. They will not have two archers, two casters, two tanks, two agile melee. They want uniqueness and so do I.
This cannot be used as an argument because Blizzard said that they do not want to change him, not me.
I understand everything you are saying.
My comparisons are only feeble because you call them that. You have not proven in anyway how they are feeble in context of this debate. You merely say they are and that no further explanation is needed or warranted. I could do the same for yours but I prefer facts and ideas. As for Blizzard, they do see this and that is why they are not adding him initially. Please do not turn the "if we want to, he is different ENOUGH" as "he is nothing like the WD and will be in D3" statement so many have taken it for. I am not saying that the Necro will not be in D3, just that I do not want him to be and for these reasons.
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You high or something? Now you are talking about changing the Nekro's skill before he even makes it into the game so the 2 skills might have a similarity?
Flame wall... What?.
That is wishful thinking. Like I would actually take the pain when there's like a shitload of people in the thread who already did it...
And just lol at the way you tried to counter the zombie wall argument. You had to change the necro's skill for that. Pathetic. And your comparisons remain broad because it limits the skills to prevent movement when one is actually doing damage. The same goes for the others. If you are too lazy to see it, I won't be helping you. Continue living in your fantasy.
Depth and reasoning? No shit! I am amazed. Seriously I am. Just read my previous posts really when I was actually taking the pain to explain things. If i can compare necro to barb, you do realize if what you are saying is true, the barb and WD would share similar skills and in so doing drowning your uniqueness idea.
Wishful thinking.
Oh noes...the barb. oh shit! Blizz has already screwed with that idea of yours. And they might do it again.
Pfft...complete failure at seeing the point in the 1/3 story but whatever.
They want uniqueness and that is why they said the WD was unique and there was still place for the necromancer.
Wishful thinking. That's what it is.
Now, now...where the hell did that one come from? If we want to, he is different enough? LOL
How about if you want to, they can be similar enough? That's all I see.
You are being lazy. Do your research properly. Your so-called specific reasons are so broad you need to compensate by inventing skills not yet in the game. That was only for 1. Just apply to the 10 others really. I am not going to do this for you.
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I hate to ignore your "read the mutha @#$en thread before you mutha @#$en post" rule nek, but I just dont give a damn, moderator would be smart and close this ridiculous thread,
you all act like we are discussing the fate of diablo 3 as we know it.
WD does not equal necro, there I dont give half a rats ass, your totally right
I just find it funny that you destroy our theory by saying, 'well you can compare the skills of any character to another, ie barb and necro' well, then doesnt the barb and necro have some things in common by your own logic ?
all I was saying was, Wd and necro have some things in common, ie the skills, which according to you, so we agree, can compare skills between any two characters, your not going to argue with your own logic now are you?.
some skills resemble other skills, why cant we just agree on that and find better posts to make some where else? seriously this thread is one of the biggest wastes of time.
BUT...i didn't go and 'find' reasons on why the game should be like this. The barb has returned and so as so not to spark rants on why their own favorite chars from D2 should return, blizz has said they have not a strong desire to bring old chars.
Since the WD seemed to have curses and summon (which actually he doesn't- he only got horrify and mass confusion there, and 5 zombie dogs and 15 skeletons will not remotely offer the same gamplay ) and that that was a necromancer trademark, people started to wonder whether he 'replaced' the necromancer. Turns out it was no so. The developers say on the matter was that the each class on D3 were unique and that the WD is being made with place left for the necromancer should they consider bringing him back.
This comparing of skills issue is only applicable for mass confusion which feels exactly the same as necro's confuse spell. However what I might think on the matter becomes interesting when people having played the WD report the guy is actually different. Yes skills are similar all over the place and not just between necro and WD which is why I was taking the pain in former posts to illustrate it and that it doesn't affect a char's uniqueness.
In my opinion they are not similar enough.
In Scyber's opinion, they are.
And so the story ends.
Oh paroxysm...relaaaaaaaaaaaax duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude.
the new barbarian looks like he will play a little different then the old barb (thank goodness)
Well his skills' effects look absolutely badass.
As for gameplay, I think it's more the new mechanics in place that will make him different to how the old barb played- i mean the presence of health orbs, use of runes...etc..etc..
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since the necro's summon spells dont really compete in hell unless he has summon skeleton and mastery at like lvl 35
or he pours all his points into golem spells
the necromancer's most powerful builds have always revolved around slight uses of curses with spells like bone spear and bone armor (sometimes bone spirit as well for pvp and boss fights)
i think they could put both classes into the game though, but make the necromancer into a more dedicated summoner
adding a new curse damage type that made summons do more damage would be a cool twist with the necromancer mixed with bone spells doing arcane damage
poison being completely removed and the effects of some of his previous curses implemented into damage spell forms
they can also add sub types to curse so that some spells would strengthen physical summons, while another form would strengthen magical summons, or just make a different curse effect for every spell =3
Be my Buddy =^.^=
Necro was never meant to be a pure summoner. You can try a pure summoner
I have made a pure summoner (All skills in the summon tree)(Hardcore and single Player untwinked) and defeated Hell. It is not to difficult to get skill levels to over 30. You can get summoner affix on magic wand and necro shield (+3 to summoner tab). The wand you can buy in stores. The wand does not even have to be an elite or exceptional quality since you will not be dealing direct damage. The shield is more difficult but you can get it as well. Like wise the shied does not have to be an elite or exceptional since you want the skills and if possible resists. It was tough in Hell but it is doable if you take your time. It was not a fast killer in Hell.
[edit]
Necro had curses that that boosted the summons or party with different curses. One of the curses that is under appreciated is the curse Weaken. It is one great curse.
I do not think that the Necro would be in one of the expansions. I can see a class that has a larger focus on summons. I think the class might be something like a Cleric/Ranger. The class can use Prayers that act like curses. The Class can turn undead into helpers for a period of time. I can see the class can befriend different animals for assistance. I can see the class be skilled in some of the melee skills as well as using slings or some of the Paladin skills of D2 for ranged combat.
This man deserves much thanking for writing such an epic post. I find it disheartening that everyone thinks the Necromancer class should just vanish but really be implemented and updated to fit the current times that have changed. I really hope the necromancer makes it into the future expansions of this game.
But this is logic, so I am certain nobody will read it. :rolleyes:
And Scybor? Posting plotwise concept, debating about the character's age? Six month ago I will go exclusively on Necro's side. While present me still want the medieval element the character himself possesses with.
And I still favor skeleton walls/minions/shields. But I've made my peace with Necro's comeback not gonna happen. And I was soothed by Witch Doctor first skill, Skull of Flame (love at first sight for the skill.)
A side from all this, I will never debate for necro's existence plotwise, it simply doesn't worth the focuse from me. But I'll be glad and continue to appreciate the development team for implementing some of Necro's signature into the current replacement.
However, the exploding pets is what still makes me a cynic for the pet usage being not implemented well (Blizzard twitters the fetish army will have runes to make skeleton fetishes? Great. Exploding Skeletons? Jeez I dunno, well there's GOT TO BE SOMEONE out there who has a better idea of how minions should function!)
There really should be a more sophisticated stand for the usage of minions, and this statement is not simply for specific players with specific interest to his gameplay. The gameplay value for minions had truely never been implemented well in D2.
If there can be simple instructions to micro the minions, the builds surrounding a summoning-doc can be more strategically valued.
Imo if most of the WD's skill sticks to area of damage and disables he will end up playing to much like the wizard. I was hoping for a true pet class archetype. However we need to put out hands in the class first, the game is not even in beta yet, it's impossible to jude this kind of thing.
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