The topic states it pretty well, but here's my question: Is a 1H+Shield Monk a viable way to go? Here's my (fairly short) pro/con list:
Pro
+ more survivability
+ avoids issue of two 1H weapons with too large a dps disparity; I initially thought this would only be an issue while leveling, but then I realized that dps difference would persist even in inferno until I had gotten truly best in slot stuff.
Con
- Armor & Block don't synergize well with Monk's dodge heavy skills; though more survivability is always good, it won't benefit a monk like it would a Barbarian with all their Armor and Life boosting skills
- Lower dps than either dual wielding 1H or using 2H. Though there are potential situations where dps would actually be higher with a better 1H and shield.
My (slightly wishy-washy) conclusion is that there isn't a best way to go, so I would just go with what the best equipment is, or if I'm feeling too squishy. Any thoughts?
A list of shield affixes and info. I think the loss of spirit regen from a second weapon is mitigable but it's hard to say at this point whether through attack speed, thorns, or resists/armor, or a lot of things really, depending on need. Need of course is a really open question at this point being that we've not encountered anything particularly difficult in the beta aside from 60+ destruction combos.
Honestly I loved the idea of going with Spear/Shield combo on a tanky Monk, the high dps from spears keeps your %weapondmg skills healthy while your heals and damage reduction added on top of the possible 20% block rate to negate even more damage helps you stay alive relatively easily.
I think of it as the build to focus on outlasting enemies rather than out damage them
I've considered using a shield on a Monk with a tank-build for Inferno with friends. I personally feel it would be useless in Normal/NM modes as your Dodge alone should be all the defense you'll really need. I guess we'll all see soon enough though..
In the topic where the video of all the 20 - 29 lvl items and their affixes, there was a Shield that had +25 dex and +25 vit, I almost began salivating at the thought of that on my Monk Tank.
As i understand it. Block will absorb a % of damage. Dodge will avoid damage completely. It might be better to use 2 fist weapons+guardians path passive to boost your dodge and get all the +dex gear you can find. the +dex gear will also boost your damage. And stock up on the gems that give +dex.
However the debate to use a shield, dual wield or use 2h will never, ever end.
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it will literally be player preference, because any of the choices are good choices, all have room to play around with, and all have pros and cons.
the shield absorbs an actual amount of damage, ex. 89 - 110 damage, so if your armor and resistances from going with a tank build drop the damage low enough that the shield damage absorbed is more than the damage you would have took, you could in actual fact block 100% of the damage same as dodging.
The difference is when using a dodge build, the attacks that don't miss will hit for massive damage compared to being hit repeatedly by small damage numbers as a tank, all personal preference.
I think information on the hit table of Diablo would be nice to know when thinking about Block and stuff.
For instance, can you Block and Dodge 1 attack? If not, then Block would be "pushing" Dodge "off" the hit table, no? It would be a "waste" to Block something instead of Dodging it, but it would be better to Block something instead of NOT Dodging it. And if you were to Dodge an attack that would have otherwise been Blocked, it's fine.
So, I guess I want to know if Diablo uses multiple rolls for some things or if it's a single roll and if it comes up Block, it doesn't check for anything else. Even if it is a single roll, it's possible that Dodge is given priority somehow.
The issue with dodge is that your incoming damage is very RNG based, and can be extremely spiky. If you have a lucky string of dodges, you wont take any damage at all for a good long while, but if the opposite happens and the RNG Gods frown on you and you take 5-6 hits in a row without dodging any of them your health will be super low very quickly. Having a shield may slow down your spirit generation, but think about the huge armor and block values. Block based tanks will be less likely to take huge spikes in damage...
This just started sounding just like warrior/pally vs. druid tanking.
I'm out. http://gifb.in/ipsV
The issue with dodge is that your incoming damage is very RNG based, and can be extremely spiky. If you have a lucky string of dodges, you wont take any damage at all for a good long while, but if the opposite happens and the RNG Gods frown on you and you take 5-6 hits in a row without dodging any of them your health will be super low very quickly. Having a shield may slow down your spirit generation, but think about the huge armor and block values. Block based tanks will be less likely to take huge spikes in damage...
This just started sounding just like warrior/pally vs. druid tanking.
I'm out. http://gifb.in/ipsV
Keep in mind that arguments referring to "spike damage" only matter when other players are healing another player. If you are playing a monk and you can foresee incoming spike damage then you will know when to properly utilize a skill to offset that or you can rely on your own speed to heal yourself.
It seems to me that monks were specifically designed to not need a shield because they have abilities which inherently protect them.
it will also be much more of a pain to keep all your dodge passives up to optimal % than it would to just throw on a shield and worry about sustaining and focusing targets. I mean, the ability to block is just a bonus really, a shield gives one of the highest armor stats in the game, and if your basing a build around survivability, it is the most consistent damage mitigator of the bunch.
Dodge vs Shield will always be a personal preference thing as I mentioned before. Dodge is like peace work pay, you have amazing weeks and you have some horrible weeks. In this case with diablo, you could have an amazing string of dodges followed by a string of huge damage spikes. The Shield is like being on salary, you know what you are in for every time, in this case, you know you are going to take some damage all the time, but it will never be that high and never be no damage.
Both are viable for a variety of reasons, we are going to see some very effective use of both strategies in our time with diablo 3 I am sure of it.
I was actually thinking of doing this exact thing basically focusing on multiple defense dodge, armor, resitance, and the block would be added bonus to whatever gets through hopefully.
Way of the Hundred Fists - Spirited Salvo to help with spirit regen
Tempest rush -
Blinding Flash -
Sweeping Wind - Master of the Wind
SSS - Sudden Assault
Mantra of Evasion - Hard Target
Passives - Seize the initiative, One With Everything, Sixth Sense
Hoping that there will be good enough balance with the damage to be useful if not can always tweek later on.
I see every one is automatically assuming that the dodge bonus from guardian's path is not added when using 1h + shield.
Did any one actually test that while it was available in the beta?
It effects all incoming damage, so I would assume so. It doesn't specify dodging melee attacks, it just simply says dodging attacks, and shields block damage. I interpret that as whether it is melee/ranged/magic it is still an "attack" and "damage" regardless what form.
If there is a difference to what is blocked or dodged, then it would greatly influence the type of build I am going to end up going with to be honest.
I see every one is automatically assuming that the dodge bonus from guardian's path is not added when using 1h + shield.
Did any one actually test that while it was available in the beta?
I highly doubt it, you can't consider yourself dual wielding if you are only attacking with one weapon. That is in fact what you are doing with a sword and shield, attacking with the sword only, That is like saying DH is dual wielding if they equip a bow and a quiver.
I guess we can't logically completely rule it out without actually trying it in game, but I highly highly doubt it.
Pro
+ more survivability
+ avoids issue of two 1H weapons with too large a dps disparity; I initially thought this would only be an issue while leveling, but then I realized that dps difference would persist even in inferno until I had gotten truly best in slot stuff.
Con
- Armor & Block don't synergize well with Monk's dodge heavy skills; though more survivability is always good, it won't benefit a monk like it would a Barbarian with all their Armor and Life boosting skills
- Lower dps than either dual wielding 1H or using 2H. Though there are potential situations where dps would actually be higher with a better 1H and shield.
My (slightly wishy-washy) conclusion is that there isn't a best way to go, so I would just go with what the best equipment is, or if I'm feeling too squishy. Any thoughts?
A list of shield affixes and info. I think the loss of spirit regen from a second weapon is mitigable but it's hard to say at this point whether through attack speed, thorns, or resists/armor, or a lot of things really, depending on need. Need of course is a really open question at this point being that we've not encountered anything particularly difficult in the beta aside from 60+ destruction combos.
I think of it as the build to focus on outlasting enemies rather than out damage them
However the debate to use a shield, dual wield or use 2h will never, ever end.
the shield absorbs an actual amount of damage, ex. 89 - 110 damage, so if your armor and resistances from going with a tank build drop the damage low enough that the shield damage absorbed is more than the damage you would have took, you could in actual fact block 100% of the damage same as dodging.
The difference is when using a dodge build, the attacks that don't miss will hit for massive damage compared to being hit repeatedly by small damage numbers as a tank, all personal preference.
For instance, can you Block and Dodge 1 attack? If not, then Block would be "pushing" Dodge "off" the hit table, no? It would be a "waste" to Block something instead of Dodging it, but it would be better to Block something instead of NOT Dodging it. And if you were to Dodge an attack that would have otherwise been Blocked, it's fine.
So, I guess I want to know if Diablo uses multiple rolls for some things or if it's a single roll and if it comes up Block, it doesn't check for anything else. Even if it is a single roll, it's possible that Dodge is given priority somehow.
This just started sounding just like warrior/pally vs. druid tanking.
I'm out.
http://gifb.in/ipsV
Keep in mind that arguments referring to "spike damage" only matter when other players are healing another player. If you are playing a monk and you can foresee incoming spike damage then you will know when to properly utilize a skill to offset that or you can rely on your own speed to heal yourself.
It seems to me that monks were specifically designed to not need a shield because they have abilities which inherently protect them.
Dodge vs Shield will always be a personal preference thing as I mentioned before. Dodge is like peace work pay, you have amazing weeks and you have some horrible weeks. In this case with diablo, you could have an amazing string of dodges followed by a string of huge damage spikes. The Shield is like being on salary, you know what you are in for every time, in this case, you know you are going to take some damage all the time, but it will never be that high and never be no damage.
Both are viable for a variety of reasons, we are going to see some very effective use of both strategies in our time with diablo 3 I am sure of it.
Way of the Hundred Fists - Spirited Salvo to help with spirit regen
Tempest rush -
Blinding Flash -
Sweeping Wind - Master of the Wind
SSS - Sudden Assault
Mantra of Evasion - Hard Target
Passives - Seize the initiative, One With Everything, Sixth Sense
Hoping that there will be good enough balance with the damage to be useful if not can always tweek later on.
we can find that out soon......
If there is a difference to what is blocked or dodged, then it would greatly influence the type of build I am going to end up going with to be honest.
I highly doubt it, you can't consider yourself dual wielding if you are only attacking with one weapon. That is in fact what you are doing with a sword and shield, attacking with the sword only, That is like saying DH is dual wielding if they equip a bow and a quiver.
I guess we can't logically completely rule it out without actually trying it in game, but I highly highly doubt it.