I've been having discussions with TrueColdKil our class moderator and I feel like we need to open up a discussion to better understand the Pros and Cons for 2h vs 1h setup with 6 Piece Marauder. All I ask is your input on the testing you have completed thus far and your thoughts.
1h: Calamity w/ Sentry Quiver
-Faster speed at which sentry shoots, 20% additional damage from calamity
2h: Hellrack, Buriza, Kridershot w/ Sentry Quiver
-Slower speed, bigger hits, higher low end damage on weapons
1h x 2: Calmity + Nat's Slayer
-Benefit of Nat's bonus, 20% damage from calamity, maximum of 3 sentrys w/o sentry quiver (Custom Engineering)
Person in my clan went with a high end Arcane Barb. The thing he said was with 6 piece bonus, the sentries no longer scale with attack speed, and instead scale with pet attack speed, like on Tasker and Theo. Mathematically speaking i think a higher base dmg would compile to better DPS in that scenario. Take this with a grain of salt though, cuz i have no 6 piece bonus to test.
Person in my clan went with a high end Arcane Barb. The thing he said was with 6 piece bonus, the sentries no longer scale with attack speed, and instead scale with pet attack speed, like on Tasker and Theo. Mathematically speaking i think a higher base dmg would compile to better DPS in that scenario. Take this with a grain of salt though, cuz i have no 6 piece bonus to test.
That's not true. Equipping different weapons make my turrets spam spenders faster/slower - at least it's what i found and personally what i expected the turrets to do. My profile is on sig, my farming speed is the same with a good rolled Buriza or with my currently equipped weapons - i keep the DW setup because of more hp only.
My tests are just a drop in the oceans and don't represent proof. 2h are more efficent because of bigger hits and better burst innately; a double green socket and/or the Calamity special may offset that.
the Best 2h crossbow should be buriza
then anything with high dex/ damage range and 10% damage is good
my friend got a decent manticore which he got good range and max crit, he went and reroll the dex to 10% damage, and testing it out, not sure what the result is tho as he doesn't like sentry builds lol
the best combination is
high end 2x crossbow (buriza) + quiver (any other high end damage 2h xbow works)
high end krider/windforce + quiver
Helltrapper + calamity
and as suggested, if you have the Sentry Quiver, don't take Custom Engineer
I would only switch to my calamity for RG anyway, other than that Manticore + Sentry Quiver the best imo
i have done some testing 2.4k dps manticore 35% cd vs 2660 dps Hellrack (10% dmg) . manticore does 1-2m more than hellrack so ya...
you may want to test for yourself too
Unless you have less than 250% Crit damage without Manticore, this can't be, since even crit multiplier will only be 10% higher than without the 35% cd at this point. If you got more crit damage, it falls off even more, while the 10% damage affix ALWAYS gives a flat 10% damage increase in noncrits AND crits.
Quote from lckuok the Best 2h crossbow should be burizathen anything with high dex/ damage range and 10% damage is good
my friend got a decent manticore which he got good range and max crit, he went and reroll the dex to 10% damage, and testing it out, not sure what the result is tho as he doesn't like sentry builds lol
Usually the dex increases the dps by more than the cd, so he should have rerolled the crit instead.
Let's say someone has 8000 dex, 50% critchance and 450% critdmg.
DPS multiplier including crits is: (CD*CC+1) = 4,5*0,5+1 = 3,25
With 35% more CD (Manticore) it would be: 4,85*0,5+1 = 3,425
So you would do 3,425/3,25 = 1,0538 times the damage than without. So it's an 5,38% increase in dps.
With 8000 dex, all your dmg is increased by 8000%, so you got 8100% dmg than without dex. Even if the dex on the Xbow is low rolled, let's say it's 650, you will have 8750%.
So you would do 8750/8100 = 1,08 times the damage than without the dex. So it's an 8% increase in dps.
So even in this case it's more efficient than the critdmg. And this doesn't even factor in the dodge chance you get from dex
So, I did a little bit of testing on my own as scientifically as possible within the confines of my available materials and patience. The results are a just a little detailed and math-y but I'll include a TL:DR at the end.
Purpose: Compare and contrast similar DPS weapons of varying speed in order to determine the effect (if any) weapon speed has on marauder turret damage.
Method: Swapping gear with similar stats, removing any gear such as hexing pants with unstable effects and any set piece items.
Gear: Natalya's Slayer (All set bonus items removed, no xbow in off-hand) with 2796.6 DPS, 1.6 APS, 1288-2208 damage range, 10% damage, 702 Dex and 130% crit damage gem
Raven's Wing with 2802.0 DPS, 1.4 APS, 1473-2530 damage range, 10% damage, 684 Dex, and 130% crit damage gem.
Gear Used: Bombardier's Rucksack in quiver slot held constant. 5 Piece Marauders (6 with RoRG), Xephirian amulet(lightning immunity), Reaper's wraps, Goldwrap(this thing hyper scales with difficulty and ferrets make it useful mid-combat, give it a try before you judge me will ya?), no item in pants slot(normally run hexing pants, didn't want that variable included in my analysis.) Sheet DPS with Natalyas in this set up: 532,159. Sheet DPS with Raven Wing: 531,992. Difference is due to small variations in weapon dps and dex between weapons. This is a .03% decrease and unlikely to affect the testing in any way.
Measurement Method: All damage tested is critical hits from the rocket proc of the shooting stars cluster arrow rune with ballistics passive active(in order to ensure maximum realism of the test). All damage is done to the near immobile zombies at the beginning of the first quest of act 1. 20 cluster arrows were fired recording the damage of each weapon, then 15 clusters were fired with a simple stopwatch recording the time at release of each arrow.
The Numbers: The Natalyas averaged 6.4M per crit in this setup(Interestingly enough the crits were consistently either 5.2k or 7.6k with an approximately 50% distribution). The Raven's Wing had a 7.4M per crit average(Same effect, crits were 6.0 or 8.7 with a 50% split). Now I tested the time and this is where it became interesting. With the Natalyas (1.6APS) equipped, the sentries fired on average every 2.48 seconds. With the Raven's Wing, they fired on average every 2.49 seconds.
Conclusion: Using human time measurement techniques and a somewhat small sample size, we can reasonably conclude that there is insufficient evidence to declare a difference in cluster arrow firing speed between the two weapons, however, there is ample reason to conclude a significant damage increase(15% by my numbers). A 12.5% decrease in attack speed produced a 15% increase in damage with damage per second being held relatively constant. It is unknown at this time whether or not this effect carries over to Multi-Shot, normal bolts, or any other spenders, however, with cluster arrow producing the bulk of our damage, we can conclude that not only is weapon speed very important to 6 piece Marauder's DPS, it is actually the most important stat we have by a significant margin. Now if only a SoJ would drop so I can break my Natalya's without breaking my heart!
TL:DR: Slow weapons greatly increase turret damage without having any impact on cluster arrow fire rate. Going from a 1.6 speed weapon to a 1.4 speed weapon with the same(very very close) dps and stats increased cluster arrow dps by 15%. Faster weapons may have other fringe benefits such as firing more bolts, but it is very likely that slow weapons do substantially more dps, even if displayed weapon dps is comparable.
Unless you have less than 250% Crit damage without Manticore, this can't be, since even crit multiplier will only be 10% higher than without the 35% cd at this point. If you got more crit damage, it falls off even more, while the 10% damage affix ALWAYS gives a flat 10% damage increase in noncrits AND crits.
So even in this case it's more efficient than the critdmg. And this doesn't even factor in the dodge chance you get from dex
i crit 50% of the time, and im seeing 1-2m more dmg than my hellrack. People are overrated with the %dmg thingie.
Sheet dps may look nice, however ...
Unless you have less than 250% Crit damage without Manticore, this can't be, since even crit multiplier will only be 10% higher than without the 35% cd at this point. If you got more crit damage, it falls off even more, while the 10% damage affix ALWAYS gives a flat 10% damage increase in noncrits AND crits.
So even in this case it's more efficient than the critdmg. And this doesn't even factor in the dodge chance you get from dex
i crit 50% of the time, and im seeing 1-2m more dmg than my hellrack. People are overrated with the %dmg thingie.
Sheet dps may look nice, however ...
Your crits will be higher, since you have 35% more crit damage bonus, but the noncrits, which are the 50% of your shots, will be lower.
As andreaseis says, the global overcome of the situation favors 10% dmg over 35% cdb (with 50% crit chance, the inflection point is in at 150% cdb). Also, it does not depend on speed, movement, time spent dpsing, elemental damage... it's just flat damage averaged over all your shots, so "sheet" damage is accurate in this case.
Actually what I am saying is that even your crits will be lower with 35% crit damage than with 10% damage once you get over +250% critdmg.
With 250% critdmg your crits will do 350% of base dmg, so with additional +35% critdamage, you will deal 10% more damage with crits. Once you get more crit damage, the increase will be even less. But with +10% damage on your weapon, you will always do 10% more damage with crits AND non crits
Unless you have less than 250% Crit damage without Manticore, this can't be, since even crit multiplier will only be 10% higher than without the 35% cd at this point. If you got more crit damage, it falls off even more, while the 10% damage affix ALWAYS gives a flat 10% damage increase in noncrits AND crits.
So even in this case it's more efficient than the critdmg. And this doesn't even factor in the dodge chance you get from dex
i crit 50% of the time, and im seeing 1-2m more dmg than my hellrack. People are overrated with the %dmg thingie.
Sheet dps may look nice, however ...
Your crits will be higher, since you have 35% more crit damage bonus, but the noncrits, which are the 50% of your shots, will be lower.
As andreaseis says, the global overcome of the situation favors 10% dmg over 35% cdb (with 50% crit chance, the inflection point is in at 150% cdb). Also, it does not depend on speed, movement, time spent dpsing, elemental damage... it's just flat damage averaged over all your shots, so "sheet" damage is accurate in this case.
Actually what I am saying is that even your crits will be lower with 35% crit damage than with 10% damage once you get over +250% critdmg.
With 250% critdmg your crits will do 350% of base dmg, so with additional +35% critdamage, you will deal 10% more damage with crits. Once you get more crit damage, the increase will be even less. But with +10% damage on your weapon, you will always do 10% more damage with crits AND non crits
so are you saying a high end damage hellrack w/ 10% damage is not as good as a lower end damage manticore with 35%cd?
I picked up a 10%dam nats bow with socket 2602dps, the max hit on it is the min hit from my ballista.
I can test it later but the problem i see is you lose your soj or granduer. Can only replace the boots or the chest and keep your 6pc maurader.
"One question, why Buriza? Does the additional pierces work for sentry firing spenders like DA and MS?"
multishot always pierces so it doesnt matter, Da is a generator, not a spender so sentrys wont cast it.
The 1h Nat's will not be better, you told me this in-game that 1h take 5 mins+ to kill t6 rift bosses. If any bow for T6 it would be calamity for its 20% damage buff not a Nat's.
1h: Calamity w/ Sentry Quiver
-Faster speed at which sentry shoots, 20% additional damage from calamity
2h: Hellrack, Buriza, Kridershot w/ Sentry Quiver
-Slower speed, bigger hits, higher low end damage on weapons
1h x 2: Calmity + Nat's Slayer
-Benefit of Nat's bonus, 20% damage from calamity, maximum of 3 sentrys w/o sentry quiver (Custom Engineering)
I would only switch to my calamity for RG anyway, other than that Manticore + Sentry Quiver the best imo
i have done some testing 2.4k dps manticore 35% cd vs 2660 dps Hellrack (10% dmg) . manticore does 1-2m more than hellrack so ya...
you may want to test for yourself too
My tests are just a drop in the oceans and don't represent proof. 2h are more efficent because of bigger hits and better burst innately; a double green socket and/or the Calamity special may offset that.
then anything with high dex/ damage range and 10% damage is good
my friend got a decent manticore which he got good range and max crit, he went and reroll the dex to 10% damage, and testing it out, not sure what the result is tho as he doesn't like sentry builds lol
the best combination is
high end 2x crossbow (buriza) + quiver (any other high end damage 2h xbow works)
high end krider/windforce + quiver
Helltrapper + calamity
and as suggested, if you have the Sentry Quiver, don't take Custom Engineer
try it last night, works like a charm =)
Usually the dex increases the dps by more than the cd, so he should have rerolled the crit instead.
Let's say someone has 8000 dex, 50% critchance and 450% critdmg.
DPS multiplier including crits is: (CD*CC+1) = 4,5*0,5+1 = 3,25
With 35% more CD (Manticore) it would be: 4,85*0,5+1 = 3,425
So you would do 3,425/3,25 = 1,0538 times the damage than without. So it's an 5,38% increase in dps.
With 8000 dex, all your dmg is increased by 8000%, so you got 8100% dmg than without dex. Even if the dex on the Xbow is low rolled, let's say it's 650, you will have 8750%.
So you would do 8750/8100 = 1,08 times the damage than without the dex. So it's an 8% increase in dps.
So even in this case it's more efficient than the critdmg. And this doesn't even factor in the dodge chance you get from dex
Purpose: Compare and contrast similar DPS weapons of varying speed in order to determine the effect (if any) weapon speed has on marauder turret damage.
Method: Swapping gear with similar stats, removing any gear such as hexing pants with unstable effects and any set piece items.
Gear: Natalya's Slayer (All set bonus items removed, no xbow in off-hand) with 2796.6 DPS, 1.6 APS, 1288-2208 damage range, 10% damage, 702 Dex and 130% crit damage gem
Raven's Wing with 2802.0 DPS, 1.4 APS, 1473-2530 damage range, 10% damage, 684 Dex, and 130% crit damage gem.
Gear Used: Bombardier's Rucksack in quiver slot held constant. 5 Piece Marauders (6 with RoRG), Xephirian amulet(lightning immunity), Reaper's wraps, Goldwrap(this thing hyper scales with difficulty and ferrets make it useful mid-combat, give it a try before you judge me will ya?), no item in pants slot(normally run hexing pants, didn't want that variable included in my analysis.) Sheet DPS with Natalyas in this set up: 532,159. Sheet DPS with Raven Wing: 531,992. Difference is due to small variations in weapon dps and dex between weapons. This is a .03% decrease and unlikely to affect the testing in any way.
Measurement Method: All damage tested is critical hits from the rocket proc of the shooting stars cluster arrow rune with ballistics passive active(in order to ensure maximum realism of the test). All damage is done to the near immobile zombies at the beginning of the first quest of act 1. 20 cluster arrows were fired recording the damage of each weapon, then 15 clusters were fired with a simple stopwatch recording the time at release of each arrow.
The Numbers: The Natalyas averaged 6.4M per crit in this setup(Interestingly enough the crits were consistently either 5.2k or 7.6k with an approximately 50% distribution). The Raven's Wing had a 7.4M per crit average(Same effect, crits were 6.0 or 8.7 with a 50% split). Now I tested the time and this is where it became interesting. With the Natalyas (1.6APS) equipped, the sentries fired on average every 2.48 seconds. With the Raven's Wing, they fired on average every 2.49 seconds.
Conclusion: Using human time measurement techniques and a somewhat small sample size, we can reasonably conclude that there is insufficient evidence to declare a difference in cluster arrow firing speed between the two weapons, however, there is ample reason to conclude a significant damage increase(15% by my numbers). A 12.5% decrease in attack speed produced a 15% increase in damage with damage per second being held relatively constant. It is unknown at this time whether or not this effect carries over to Multi-Shot, normal bolts, or any other spenders, however, with cluster arrow producing the bulk of our damage, we can conclude that not only is weapon speed very important to 6 piece Marauder's DPS, it is actually the most important stat we have by a significant margin. Now if only a SoJ would drop so I can break my Natalya's without breaking my heart!
TL:DR: Slow weapons greatly increase turret damage without having any impact on cluster arrow fire rate. Going from a 1.6 speed weapon to a 1.4 speed weapon with the same(very very close) dps and stats increased cluster arrow dps by 15%. Faster weapons may have other fringe benefits such as firing more bolts, but it is very likely that slow weapons do substantially more dps, even if displayed weapon dps is comparable.
Sheet dps may look nice, however ...
My DH Profile
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/FCWGAMING-1360/hero/1978109
With 250% critdmg your crits will do 350% of base dmg, so with additional +35% critdamage, you will deal 10% more damage with crits. Once you get more crit damage, the increase will be even less. But with +10% damage on your weapon, you will always do 10% more damage with crits AND non crits
I can test it later but the problem i see is you lose your soj or granduer. Can only replace the boots or the chest and keep your 6pc maurader.
"One question, why Buriza? Does the additional pierces work for sentry firing spenders like DA and MS?"
multishot always pierces so it doesnt matter, Da is a generator, not a spender so sentrys wont cast it.
pd: its no my DH