I main DH and didn't read anything here. But I can confirm that DH are still retardedly OP. If you can't beat the game and farm a3 as a DH currently, then you have a personal problem that rerolling cannot fix.
I am doing act3 right now with 54k dps 25k hp and 110allres and as long as I don't mess up while kiting I don't die. I run ball lightning (which I also find to be extremely OP as it has a much longer distance than NT, and travels faster) and hungering arrow. SS, Prep with heal (which I am gonna replace had the heal for a2 where I wasn't as easily 1 shot during bosses), bat companion, and vault. I don't run SS, I use Tactical Advantage, Archery, and something else that I can't think of right this second because it's late and I'm tired. Fact is we are still exceptionally OP and nothing can really touch us in either the solo department or in a party. We can easily swap gear to MF when the mob is almost done with very little troubles. The game is still easy for a DH. Only thing I was sad about is I didn't have a lot of money pre IAS nerd so I didn't get to get some kick ass crit gear.
And Multishot hits harder than Nether Tentacles ever did, and it goes through Invulnerable minions just the same
First, I agree, they both go through invulnerable minions the same.
Second, one EA vs one MS, yes, the MS hits harder.
Third, EA is overall more damage output than MS as far as hatred comparison goes.
1 MS with the 50% hatred cost rune is 20 hatred for 165% weapon damage. For the same hatred cost I can throw out 2 EA for 310% weapon damage.
The ONLY benefit MS has over EA is that you don't need to use it intelligently because its just one massive spread of arrows. But that's it.
I also mispoke when I said nether tentacle was 100% necessary. I meant to add in "depending on gearing". If you have the gear to just blow shit up then it barely matters what attacks your using. I have a friend that paralyzed from the waste down so he works from home and spends most of his time playing D3, his DH is his farming toon. He can run around A4 inferno spamming bola shots watching everything blow up and never worry about dying.
As to your comment about my replies to whats his face, yeah I may have been out of line, but I just don't care anymore. I am beyond tired of these crybabies and naysayers QQing about how terrible DH is now and how evil Blizzard is and all that shit. Especially when these same people can't even manage to formulate a non biased argument. Some people are just too retarded to realize that DH was in such an OP spot that Blizzard had to do something. Since every DH with 1/4 of a brain was using nether tentacle they nerfed it. So be it, it was OP. Do I think they nerfed it a bit too hard, yeah, I would have sped up its projectile speed so it only got 2+ hits on really big creatures instead of every creature in the game. But that's just me.
And Multishot hits harder than Nether Tentacles ever did, and it goes through Invulnerable minions just the same
The ONLY benefit MS has over EA is that you don't need to use it intelligently because its just one massive spread of arrows. But that's it.
This is actually pretty substantial. Multishot will hit an entire quadrant of your screen instantaneously. Nether does its aoe in a straight line, but whats worse is that it moves so freaking slow. You WILL miss, and you will miss often with nether. If you're out in the open, forget it. You'll miss more than half of your nether shots unless you get insanely close to the mobs. It's doable in confined places with halls and doorways, but even then it's no sure thing. Nether's saving grace was its ability to hit multiple times. Now, I don't really see a role that nether can fill that's not done better by another skill.
And Multishot hits harder than Nether Tentacles ever did, and it goes through Invulnerable minions just the same
The ONLY benefit MS has over EA is that you don't need to use it intelligently because its just one massive spread of arrows. But that's it.
This is actually pretty substantial. Multishot will hit an entire quadrant of your screen instantaneously. Nether does its aoe in a straight line, but whats worse is that it moves so freaking slow. You WILL miss, and you will miss often with nether. If you're out in the open, forget it. You'll miss more than half of your nether shots unless you get insanely close to the mobs. It's doable in confined places with halls and doorways, but even then it's no sure thing. Nether's saving grace was its ability to hit multiple times. Now, I don't really see a role that nether can fill that's not done better by another skill.
I actually agree with the majority of this. What I think Blizz should've done with NT was nerf it down to 100% weapon damage based on how quickly it travels and let it hit as many times as it can. It makes the most logical sense imo. It would make me use it again, but because of them nerfing it the game has become more challenging as a DH and actually makes you l2p. Which is what they were going for in the first place.
And Multishot hits harder than Nether Tentacles ever did, and it goes through Invulnerable minions just the same
The ONLY benefit MS has over EA is that you don't need to use it intelligently because its just one massive spread of arrows. But that's it.
This is actually pretty substantial. Multishot will hit an entire quadrant of your screen instantaneously. Nether does its aoe in a straight line, but whats worse is that it moves so freaking slow. You WILL miss, and you will miss often with nether. If you're out in the open, forget it. You'll miss more than half of your nether shots unless you get insanely close to the mobs. It's doable in confined places with halls and doorways, but even then it's no sure thing. Nether's saving grace was its ability to hit multiple times. Now, I don't really see a role that nether can fill that's not done better by another skill.
I respectfully disagree. I have no qualms hitting most everything with my EA out in the open. It is easier in dungeons of course, but if you kite a little bit you can easily force your enemies to walk into EA so you don't miss.
Lets be honest here, MS vs EA on boss fights is a pointless discussion, EA wins hands down on 90% of the bosses. I honestly can't think of any boss I would rather have MS on besides Belial. The name of the game ATM is keeping your NV stacks at 5 so you're not generally switching abilities at all. And, most of the time you are in those dungeons where yourself admitted EA is easier to land. These 2 things combined gives me no reason to even put a serious thought towards using MS over EA.
Plus, the few times i need a frontal AoE, I use evasive fire with covering fire. Usually I spam that at packs of mobs that are either "fast" or just easy to mow down.
I also run MS for AOE and impale for burst. The beauty of NT was that it fulfilled both AOE and burst in a single skill, thus freeing one skill slot for other useful things. Personally, though, I've always hated the skill, even before the nerf. Sure It was an excellent skill, but I hated how slow and rather silly it looked.
For those switching acts around for farming (I do it every now and then to not get burn out), you might want to try using multishot in act 1/act 2. It clears easy mobs faster than NT. No need to lure them into a straight line to shoot. Just run in, press fire, done. I just love the simplicity.
Now for act 3/4, you can use what you're comfortable with.
I did read part of the post and let me say, that all those people crying about how broken the class is at this point, that i am pretty sure you have no clue on how to play it. I leveled my DH recently to 60 .. 3 days ago.... Im running a3 now! stuck on Ghom tho, he is a big badass and gotta figure out how to deal with him, but in my experience, after playing 300+ hours a monk, and 100+ hours a wizard... that DH is way overpowered compared to them. All i have to run is Tactical Advantadge - SS and Steady Aim.... Evasive Fire - Covering Fire, Multi Shot - Fire at Will... I have the bat with me, Smoke Screen with the 1.5s duration rune, and prep with the +10 discipline. I can even farm a2 and a3 on a 220% mf gear which is far from being kickass... But the ability to almost undefinitely kite and avoid incoming damage plus the high base dps you get with very few effort, its just insane.. Stop complaining, this class is overpowered still and will get more nerfs in the future i am sure of it...
And Multishot hits harder than Nether Tentacles ever did, and it goes through Invulnerable minions just the same
Third, EA is overall more damage output than MS as far as hatred comparison goes.
1 MS with the 50% hatred cost rune is 20 hatred for 165% weapon damage. For the same hatred cost I can throw out 2 EA for 310% weapon damage.
The ONLY benefit MS has over EA is that you don't need to use it intelligently because its just one massive spread of arrows. But that's it.
Do I think they nerfed it a bit too hard, yeah, I would have sped up its projectile speed so it only got 2+ hits on really big creatures instead of every creature in the game. But that's just me.
I would have to disagree with your third point because I think overall you'll hit more targets on average with MS over NT (Unless you're running through the Keep Depths on Act 3, or something. But even then, they both will hit at minimum the same number of targets, and even in the corridors of the Keep Depths the mobs are often spread out a little). If you have to spread your nether tentacles out over any space that doesn't allow them both to clip a single target, then you wind up losing overall damage per hatred spent per mob.
Now there's another thing to consider here, not only the damage, but the damage per second as well. It takes twice as long to fire two nether tentacles as it does one multishot, and if the damage is being dealt to an area where one multishot will hit the same number (Or likely more) as two nether tentacles spread out, then you lose out on overall damage per second. And even if you run back to a corridor where you can effectively funnel the enemy group for a perfect nether tentacle hit, you're still losing damage due to downtime running around and positioning, whereas I can pop around a corner and instantly blow an entire group away in less than a second with multi shot.
Now to the topic of single target damage (Bosses), I think that it's a moot point because in my build I don't use MS to DPS bosses anyway. It's all about impale and that massive single target damage that it brings. And once again, we have to talk about DPS here, not just individual spell damage. You can dump hatred much faster with imaple for potentially more damage (and quite often this is true, especially with any crits at all and the Grievous Wounds rune) than sitting there rattling off two and a half nether tentacles.
As for nerfing of the skill? Well, these things take time to truly get right. They needed a fix, and they needed it now, so they went with their gut feeling. Not all decisions are perfect, so perhaps in time they will give it a little bump or something. I still maintain that allowing it to hit things multiple times like it used to would be fine if they buffed the cost of the skill so it couldn't be used as effectively as Multi Shot with a quarter of the cost.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm just getting started. I'm gonna pull the whole thing down. I gonna bring the whole fuckin' diseased, corrupt temple down on your heads. It's gonna be Biblical."
One-shoting entire groups with well placed traps is pretty fun too. I thought about running this but... Eh... Caltrops is just soooo goood!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'm just getting started. I'm gonna pull the whole thing down. I gonna bring the whole fuckin' diseased, corrupt temple down on your heads. It's gonna be Biblical."
They should have just reduced the damage but kept the multi-hit mechanic of the skill
They did this. They called it "Ball Lightning". Since 2 spells doing the exact same thing with the exact same damage is absolutely retarded, they did the alternative - removing the multitarget thing.
oh and btw, they still havent manged to fix the freaking tooltip of ball lightning. it still labels as 155% weapon damage, just as NT, which still does about double the damage per hit.
Now there's another thing to consider here, not only the damage, but the damage per second as well. It takes twice as long to fire two nether tentacles as it does one multishot, and if the damage is being dealt to an area where one multishot will hit the same number (Or likely more) as two nether tentacles spread out, then you lose out on overall damage per second. And even if you run back to a corridor where you can effectively funnel the enemy group for a perfect nether tentacle hit, you're still losing damage due to downtime running around and positioning, whereas I can pop around a corner and instantly blow an entire group away in less than a second with multi shot.
See, I don't have a problem hitting mass targets with my NT. I kite mobs towards me, line them up, launch an NT and its GG for the mobs. That being said, sure, on occasion I may miss a few that I may not miss with MS, I would be silly to say otherwise. But on the DPS front, I think you're a little off in thinking MS will be better DPS. You're going to spam out what? 5-6 MS in a row then spam a hatred generator thats not going to do as much damage as EA. While you start spamming your hatred generator I am still spamming EA for more overall DPS than what you are getting.
6 MS @ 165% weapon damage then (i am assuming) 6 hungering arrow @ 115% damage.
12 EA @ 155% weapon damage then Hungering arrow spam.
I think I still end out ahead of you on the DPS. Although I would have to factor in the pierces of the hungering arrow. We may end up about even.
They should have just reduced the damage but kept the multi-hit mechanic of the skill
They did this. They called it "Ball Lightning". Since 2 spells doing the exact same thing with the exact same damage is absolutely retarded, they did the alternative - removing the multitarget thing.
oh and btw, they still havent manged to fix the freaking tooltip of ball lightning. it still labels as 155% weapon damage, just as NT, which still does about double the damage per hit.
No. If they had reduced nether damage from 155% WD to around 90% WD and retained its multi-hit mechanic, there would be enough diversity between these skills to make them useful depending on the situation. Nether would still do more damage than ball lightning if it lands, but ball lightning would have the much larger aoe radius. Nether would still be quite efficient at front-loading damage on mobs with large hitboxes like act bosses, and ball lightning would regain its role as an aoe room clearer. Instead, the nerf has made nether mathematically inferior to ball lightning in every way. Now, both skills do the same damage, but ball lightning has twice the aoe coverage. Explain to me why anyone would use nether over ball lightning after the nerf.
Ball lightning's tooltip is correct. It says 155% because it hits things two times. So the first hit is 77.5% and the second hit is 77.5% which equals 155% weapon damage. The whole reason NT was broken was because it hit 155% multiple times, so you'd be able to run through things hitting them for 120k+ crits 4 times which basically wipes out any mob or set of mobs. That is OP and unfair to other classes. I've played my DH for almost 200 hours and fully agree that we were TOO OP. We are still OP as hell, but now we aren't so far above and beyond all the other classes that it makes it somewhat viable to at least play the other ones. Makes things a little bit more fair imo. In the beginning we were invincible, powerful, and hit like brick shithouses. Now we have to spend gold to be mostly invincible, and can still hit hard as fuck.
Ball lightning's tooltip is correct. It says 155% because it hits things two times. So the first hit is 77.5% and the second hit is 77.5% which equals 155% weapon damage. The whole reason NT was broken was because it hit 155% multiple times, so you'd be able to run through things hitting them for 120k+ crits 4 times which basically wipes out any mob or set of mobs. That is OP and unfair to other classes. I've played my DH for almost 200 hours and fully agree that we were TOO OP. We are still OP as hell, but now we aren't so far above and beyond all the other classes that it makes it somewhat viable to at least play the other ones. Makes things a little bit more fair imo. In the beginning we were invincible, powerful, and hit like brick shithouses. Now we have to spend gold to be mostly invincible, and can still hit hard as fuck.
I have never seen the old NT hit more than 3 times, and that was on giant sized mobs like Azmodan while they were being tanked and not chasing me. The only exception being missile dampening bosses, which one NT could kill. As to DH being mostly invincible, that lasted until they cut SS in half. I don't think DH is OP right now at all, but yes, we were OP and needed to be balanced.
I have never seen the old NT hit more than 3 times, and that was on giant sized mobs like Azmodan while they were being tanked and not chasing me. The only exception being missile dampening bosses, which one NT could kill. As to DH being mostly invincible, that lasted until they cut SS in half. I don't think DH is OP right now at all, but yes, we were OP and needed to be balanced.
I actually tested this very same issue for a discussion in another thread on these boards concerning the functionality of sharpshooter and nether. Same skill, same mob (azmodan). Nether hit Azmodan ... exactly 4 times.
I have never seen the old NT hit more than 3 times, and that was on giant sized mobs like Azmodan while they were being tanked and not chasing me. The only exception being missile dampening bosses, which one NT could kill. As to DH being mostly invincible, that lasted until they cut SS in half. I don't think DH is OP right now at all, but yes, we were OP and needed to be balanced.
I actually tested this very same issue for a discussion in another thread on these boards concerning the functionality of sharpshooter and nether. Same skill, same mob (azmodan). Nether hit Azmodan ... exactly 4 times.
Azmodan would be the only creature in the game I could see this working on since he is the fattest mob in the game but I personally never say it tick more than 3 times, not saying 4 is impossible.
Noobie#1931
First, I agree, they both go through invulnerable minions the same.
Second, one EA vs one MS, yes, the MS hits harder.
Third, EA is overall more damage output than MS as far as hatred comparison goes.
1 MS with the 50% hatred cost rune is 20 hatred for 165% weapon damage. For the same hatred cost I can throw out 2 EA for 310% weapon damage.
The ONLY benefit MS has over EA is that you don't need to use it intelligently because its just one massive spread of arrows. But that's it.
I also mispoke when I said nether tentacle was 100% necessary. I meant to add in "depending on gearing". If you have the gear to just blow shit up then it barely matters what attacks your using. I have a friend that paralyzed from the waste down so he works from home and spends most of his time playing D3, his DH is his farming toon. He can run around A4 inferno spamming bola shots watching everything blow up and never worry about dying.
As to your comment about my replies to whats his face, yeah I may have been out of line, but I just don't care anymore. I am beyond tired of these crybabies and naysayers QQing about how terrible DH is now and how evil Blizzard is and all that shit. Especially when these same people can't even manage to formulate a non biased argument. Some people are just too retarded to realize that DH was in such an OP spot that Blizzard had to do something. Since every DH with 1/4 of a brain was using nether tentacle they nerfed it. So be it, it was OP. Do I think they nerfed it a bit too hard, yeah, I would have sped up its projectile speed so it only got 2+ hits on really big creatures instead of every creature in the game. But that's just me.
This is actually pretty substantial. Multishot will hit an entire quadrant of your screen instantaneously. Nether does its aoe in a straight line, but whats worse is that it moves so freaking slow. You WILL miss, and you will miss often with nether. If you're out in the open, forget it. You'll miss more than half of your nether shots unless you get insanely close to the mobs. It's doable in confined places with halls and doorways, but even then it's no sure thing. Nether's saving grace was its ability to hit multiple times. Now, I don't really see a role that nether can fill that's not done better by another skill.
I actually agree with the majority of this. What I think Blizz should've done with NT was nerf it down to 100% weapon damage based on how quickly it travels and let it hit as many times as it can. It makes the most logical sense imo. It would make me use it again, but because of them nerfing it the game has become more challenging as a DH and actually makes you l2p. Which is what they were going for in the first place.
Noobie#1931
I respectfully disagree. I have no qualms hitting most everything with my EA out in the open. It is easier in dungeons of course, but if you kite a little bit you can easily force your enemies to walk into EA so you don't miss.
Lets be honest here, MS vs EA on boss fights is a pointless discussion, EA wins hands down on 90% of the bosses. I honestly can't think of any boss I would rather have MS on besides Belial. The name of the game ATM is keeping your NV stacks at 5 so you're not generally switching abilities at all. And, most of the time you are in those dungeons where yourself admitted EA is easier to land. These 2 things combined gives me no reason to even put a serious thought towards using MS over EA.
Plus, the few times i need a frontal AoE, I use evasive fire with covering fire. Usually I spam that at packs of mobs that are either "fast" or just easy to mow down.
For those switching acts around for farming (I do it every now and then to not get burn out), you might want to try using multishot in act 1/act 2. It clears easy mobs faster than NT. No need to lure them into a straight line to shoot. Just run in, press fire, done. I just love the simplicity.
Now for act 3/4, you can use what you're comfortable with.
PS: Spike traps FTW!
I would have to disagree with your third point because I think overall you'll hit more targets on average with MS over NT (Unless you're running through the Keep Depths on Act 3, or something. But even then, they both will hit at minimum the same number of targets, and even in the corridors of the Keep Depths the mobs are often spread out a little). If you have to spread your nether tentacles out over any space that doesn't allow them both to clip a single target, then you wind up losing overall damage per hatred spent per mob.
Now there's another thing to consider here, not only the damage, but the damage per second as well. It takes twice as long to fire two nether tentacles as it does one multishot, and if the damage is being dealt to an area where one multishot will hit the same number (Or likely more) as two nether tentacles spread out, then you lose out on overall damage per second. And even if you run back to a corridor where you can effectively funnel the enemy group for a perfect nether tentacle hit, you're still losing damage due to downtime running around and positioning, whereas I can pop around a corner and instantly blow an entire group away in less than a second with multi shot.
Now to the topic of single target damage (Bosses), I think that it's a moot point because in my build I don't use MS to DPS bosses anyway. It's all about impale and that massive single target damage that it brings. And once again, we have to talk about DPS here, not just individual spell damage. You can dump hatred much faster with imaple for potentially more damage (and quite often this is true, especially with any crits at all and the Grievous Wounds rune) than sitting there rattling off two and a half nether tentacles.
As for nerfing of the skill? Well, these things take time to truly get right. They needed a fix, and they needed it now, so they went with their gut feeling. Not all decisions are perfect, so perhaps in time they will give it a little bump or something. I still maintain that allowing it to hit things multiple times like it used to would be fine if they buffed the cost of the skill so it couldn't be used as effectively as Multi Shot with a quarter of the cost.
- Clay Shelton
One-shoting entire groups with well placed traps is pretty fun too. I thought about running this but... Eh... Caltrops is just soooo goood!
- Clay Shelton
oh and btw, they still havent manged to fix the freaking tooltip of ball lightning. it still labels as 155% weapon damage, just as NT, which still does about double the damage per hit.
See, I don't have a problem hitting mass targets with my NT. I kite mobs towards me, line them up, launch an NT and its GG for the mobs. That being said, sure, on occasion I may miss a few that I may not miss with MS, I would be silly to say otherwise. But on the DPS front, I think you're a little off in thinking MS will be better DPS. You're going to spam out what? 5-6 MS in a row then spam a hatred generator thats not going to do as much damage as EA. While you start spamming your hatred generator I am still spamming EA for more overall DPS than what you are getting.
6 MS @ 165% weapon damage then (i am assuming) 6 hungering arrow @ 115% damage.
12 EA @ 155% weapon damage then Hungering arrow spam.
I think I still end out ahead of you on the DPS. Although I would have to factor in the pierces of the hungering arrow. We may end up about even.
No. If they had reduced nether damage from 155% WD to around 90% WD and retained its multi-hit mechanic, there would be enough diversity between these skills to make them useful depending on the situation. Nether would still do more damage than ball lightning if it lands, but ball lightning would have the much larger aoe radius. Nether would still be quite efficient at front-loading damage on mobs with large hitboxes like act bosses, and ball lightning would regain its role as an aoe room clearer. Instead, the nerf has made nether mathematically inferior to ball lightning in every way. Now, both skills do the same damage, but ball lightning has twice the aoe coverage. Explain to me why anyone would use nether over ball lightning after the nerf.
Noobie#1931
I have never seen the old NT hit more than 3 times, and that was on giant sized mobs like Azmodan while they were being tanked and not chasing me. The only exception being missile dampening bosses, which one NT could kill. As to DH being mostly invincible, that lasted until they cut SS in half. I don't think DH is OP right now at all, but yes, we were OP and needed to be balanced.
I actually tested this very same issue for a discussion in another thread on these boards concerning the functionality of sharpshooter and nether. Same skill, same mob (azmodan). Nether hit Azmodan ... exactly 4 times.
Azmodan would be the only creature in the game I could see this working on since he is the fattest mob in the game but I personally never say it tick more than 3 times, not saying 4 is impossible.