1H crossbow DPS is inflated with high attack speed and personally I can't take advantage of it with stutter step kiting so I'd rather have something that hits harder with every shot.
slow attack speed locks you down for longer at each attack so I wouldn't exactly say it's too good for kiting..
Attackspeed makes up for this easily, and the insanely high attack speed of 1H Crossbows makes stutter kiting way too ineffective. You need to stand and shoot without interruption to make use of the high attack speed.
I always advocate bows, not 1h xbows. I meant it as an argument against 2h xbows, which are in my opinion inferior because of both too slow attackspeed, and lower damage output.
But they crit like a truck And critting yourself to death on a Reflect Damage mob is the most fun a DH can get! Especially with Teleport/Waller/Fast/Invulnerable Minions All those prefixes on a Soul Lasher. GG, I gave up on Act 3 last night cos 4 resets gave me Soul Lasher champs all with Teleport~
I'm currently viable to farm act 4 rare packs with little effort, melting their faces off with a weapon setup you are constantly saying to be the worst possible... and what makes it funnier is that neither of my weapons have hitted the 1k dps mark... ~ <3
When you say viable to farm. You mean what exactly?
Negative, dualwielding IS viable in every aspect, due to the double crit gem, why don't people really get this. Everything I've done to my DH and gamestyle would seem to be according to some of these geniuses absolute impossiblity with my weapon combination and my progress (especially soloprogress) should be absolute nada = zero.
I've experimented all 3 weapon types, 2 hand bows, xbows and 1-handers. Most of the players here have not ever touched dualwielding builds in their life, thinking they have it all covered.
People: do not look down at dualwield combinations unless you've done the exact math. I'm currently sitting at 54k (no SS). The way how crit seems to go along with attackspeed increase from the fast attacking combination seems near perfection and wow RNG system forcing that practically every 3rd attack is a hard critting blow, going along with the runeset of those few nice abilities. I'm currently viable to farm act 4 rare packs with little effort, melting their faces off with a weapon setup you are constantly saying to be the worst possible... and what makes it funnier is that neither of my weapons have hitted the 1k dps mark... ~ <3
Time to go around with your theorycrafting again? Or next time you neglect dualwield build and consider 2h superior, think over the dualwield perks again, 2* weapon sockets (extremely high value in stats) or the best archery bonus of them all in end-game... (@ 200% crit dmg, you surpass bows. & best nonrecipe crit gems are +70% and best is +100%)...
Naturally dualwield sucks if you dont have any flat crit chance in your gear, but that is another aspect that you can easily fill in 30~60% crit chance as a demon hunter... It's not a mission impossible. Now then add up the best possible crit damage build frameworked around that, no other weapon combo can come close to what dualwield with sockets can offer. 2h xbows are "ok" but at the extreme crit damage modifiers they cant achieve so high crit chances.
This was really hard to understand, but in principle i agree with you -- with the absolute ideal best 1handed crossbows, you will theoretically do more dps than the 2handed variants. The problem is that you need two 1k+ dps 1hxbows with built in crit damage AND a socket to stick an emerald in. Such a combination could theoretically net you over +300% crit damage from just the weapons alone.
The problem is, you gotta get these weapons first. I've been watching the auction house for the last few days and I've yet to see a single such 1hxbow up for sale, let alone 2. When one DOES come up for sale, I expect them to cost no less than 50 million a pop. And oh yea, you gotta buy 2 of them. See the problem yet ? Looking at your stats, 50k dps without sharpshooter is above average but it isn't close to top of the line gear. I'd bet good money that you're not dual wielding the crossbows I've described. With your gear, you'd probably do better with a strong quiver and a crossbow with crit damage.
Conclusion: Dualwielding has the potential to do the most dps, but only if you have insane weapons. Unless you're richer than scrooge mcduck, it isn't feasible right now.
Plug the BiS stats into the spreadsheet, 2h bow is always ahead, although dualwield does come within 7%~, it's still quite a bit away but I might still do it just because how much better it looks.
And someone said xbow archery bonus is the best? are you on crack? you get 8.5% from a quiver, thats 1.5% less than your supposed "best bonus". Nothing is better than a flat 15% bonus damage, not even close. That 500% bonus crit damage? bow bonus just got 90% bonus crit damage.
Negative, dualwielding IS viable in every aspect, due to the double crit gem, why don't people really get this
I was under impression gems put in weapon, apart from Thorns Topaz, works only when you are hitting with that weapon? Rubies increase one weapon damage, but don't seem to have effect on other one. IAS on weapon don't make other hit faster etc. Is crit gem exception to this?
Don't you get a bonus of 15% attack speed for dual wielding?
Yes you do, but you also get a bonus 15% for equipping a quiver.
Some unique quivers can even give you more than 15%, which really skews against dual wielding.
Dual wielding, you can get stats that you can't get on quivers.
Other than the double crit damage via gems, like what ? i'll also add that likewise, quivers give stats that you can't find via dual wielding (hi + magic find and +8.5% crit).
1h potential stat roll VS BIS QUIVER::
+15% IAS Dualwield perk vs quiver:: -4%
~350 dexterity vs quiver:: +250
~+10% crit chance vs quiver:: +1.5%
~Socket Extra +100% critical strike damage vs quiver:: +100%
~Weapon roll +100% critical strike damage vs quiver:: +100%
So in the event of perfect BIS roll, bow needs to beat a combination of 350 dexterity, +200% increased critical strike damage, +10% critical strike chance, if we're assuming that the double xbows are identical. Regardless atm if you dont want to spend millions on weapons, the "cheap" 900-dps dualwield xbow set is more dmg output than roughly more expensive 1-1.1k blue xbows/bows in auction house.
ps: The top of the line 1h xbows, the reason why there doesnt seem to exsist those is just simply the fact that they get sold nearly instantly on almost every ludicrious price set on them, where as there doesnt seem to be close as much buying in the 2-handers.
What the fuck is with the amount of random bullshit in this post?
1. Deadmans can get to 20%, so 5% difference
2. Quivers can get to 200 base with a socket, so 90 dex difference
4. The good xbows you're thinking of has too many affixes/suffixes, you need 3 JUST for dmg(+dmg, +%dmg, +atkspd) 2-3 for 350 dex(dex, dex/?, dex/??), 1 for crit dmg, 1 for socket
You think the reason it doesn't exist on the auction house is because people buy it out instantly? More like it doesn't exist.
So basically you're already losing just comparing stats with bow vs hxbow, since 15% dmg, 5% atkspeed, 300~ higher weapon dps, amazing bonus to hungering or elemental, and more dex unless you want to lose the critdmg or socket VS a measly 1.5% crit and 200% crit dmg
Hell, you can even afford vit on quivers since you have so many affixes.
In other words bows deal more damage than xbows (assuming you're standing there firing unprohibited) until you reach ~30% crit. At 50% crit you'd be dealing +25% damage, 10% higher than bow.
The difference really isn't all that big. Personally I've tried stuttering bows with ~just 2.7 attacks per second and it's very tiresome while I can normally do it or something close to it, and it's pretty fun to just shoot really fast, but I'm not even in full attack speed gear yet nor is the bow I use for funzies even have core increased attack speed on it, so even what I have is already too much, makes me want to lean towards a 2h crossbow for that reason alone.... I mean I'm going to be attacking about that fast in the end if I use the slowest possible weapon there is, and it is more than fast enough lemme tell ya. Stutter stepping with left click+shift attacks is really, really annoying beyond a certain threshold.
It may look and feel cool, like you're a super hero with super speed, but I'm more of an old mannish type player. Plus I like the consistency of crossbow damage. Bows have a 800ish damage difference between minimum and max damage so as someone above mentioned you could crit for less than you hit...
Look at his offhand. He has 15% attack speed and 8% crit, so yes he factored in the quiver.
Maybe I am confused, but isn't the primary argument for using 2 1h xbows that you can get crit damage much higher? But in the spreadsheet it seems that you only give the hxbows 20% more crit damage (higher gems). The attack speed from items also confuses me as it doesn't seem to make sense that a bit 2h xbow would fire at the same speed as the hxbows.
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Why is this?
But they crit like a truck And critting yourself to death on a Reflect Damage mob is the most fun a DH can get! Especially with Teleport/Waller/Fast/Invulnerable Minions All those prefixes on a Soul Lasher. GG, I gave up on Act 3 last night cos 4 resets gave me Soul Lasher champs all with Teleport~
Yes you do, but you also get a bonus 15% for equipping a quiver.
Some unique quivers can even give you more than 15%, which really skews against dual wielding.
When you say viable to farm. You mean what exactly?
This was really hard to understand, but in principle i agree with you -- with the absolute ideal best 1handed crossbows, you will theoretically do more dps than the 2handed variants. The problem is that you need two 1k+ dps 1hxbows with built in crit damage AND a socket to stick an emerald in. Such a combination could theoretically net you over +300% crit damage from just the weapons alone.
The problem is, you gotta get these weapons first. I've been watching the auction house for the last few days and I've yet to see a single such 1hxbow up for sale, let alone 2. When one DOES come up for sale, I expect them to cost no less than 50 million a pop. And oh yea, you gotta buy 2 of them. See the problem yet ? Looking at your stats, 50k dps without sharpshooter is above average but it isn't close to top of the line gear. I'd bet good money that you're not dual wielding the crossbows I've described. With your gear, you'd probably do better with a strong quiver and a crossbow with crit damage.
Conclusion: Dualwielding has the potential to do the most dps, but only if you have insane weapons. Unless you're richer than scrooge mcduck, it isn't feasible right now.
And someone said xbow archery bonus is the best? are you on crack? you get 8.5% from a quiver, thats 1.5% less than your supposed "best bonus". Nothing is better than a flat 15% bonus damage, not even close. That 500% bonus crit damage? bow bonus just got 90% bonus crit damage.
Dual wielding, you can get stats that you can't get on quivers.
Other than the double crit damage via gems, like what ? i'll also add that likewise, quivers give stats that you can't find via dual wielding (hi + magic find and +8.5% crit).
What the fuck is with the amount of random bullshit in this post?
1. Deadmans can get to 20%, so 5% difference
2. Quivers can get to 200 base with a socket, so 90 dex difference
4. The good xbows you're thinking of has too many affixes/suffixes, you need 3 JUST for dmg(+dmg, +%dmg, +atkspd) 2-3 for 350 dex(dex, dex/?, dex/??), 1 for crit dmg, 1 for socket
You think the reason it doesn't exist on the auction house is because people buy it out instantly? More like it doesn't exist.
So basically you're already losing just comparing stats with bow vs hxbow, since 15% dmg, 5% atkspeed, 300~ higher weapon dps, amazing bonus to hungering or elemental, and more dex unless you want to lose the critdmg or socket VS a measly 1.5% crit and 200% crit dmg
Hell, you can even afford vit on quivers since you have so many affixes.
are you factoring in a quiver?
The difference really isn't all that big. Personally I've tried stuttering bows with ~just 2.7 attacks per second and it's very tiresome while I can normally do it or something close to it, and it's pretty fun to just shoot really fast, but I'm not even in full attack speed gear yet nor is the bow I use for funzies even have core increased attack speed on it, so even what I have is already too much, makes me want to lean towards a 2h crossbow for that reason alone.... I mean I'm going to be attacking about that fast in the end if I use the slowest possible weapon there is, and it is more than fast enough lemme tell ya. Stutter stepping with left click+shift attacks is really, really annoying beyond a certain threshold.
It may look and feel cool, like you're a super hero with super speed, but I'm more of an old mannish type player. Plus I like the consistency of crossbow damage. Bows have a 800ish damage difference between minimum and max damage so as someone above mentioned you could crit for less than you hit...
Look at his offhand. He has 15% attack speed and 8% crit, so yes he factored in the quiver.
Maybe I am confused, but isn't the primary argument for using 2 1h xbows that you can get crit damage much higher? But in the spreadsheet it seems that you only give the hxbows 20% more crit damage (higher gems). The attack speed from items also confuses me as it doesn't seem to make sense that a bit 2h xbow would fire at the same speed as the hxbows.