Well you have to remember the generators that they all have very powerful utility purposes (aside from Gernade and Seeking Arrow). The indigo rune for Entangling is a good example. I would say at really high levels the generators that will have some sort of control bonus will still be powerful but the strict damage ones do seem quite bad.
Yes that 10 passive regen sounds quite over powered. They might be changing this. The most recent blue posts basically said now that patch 13 is out they will be doing balance changes until the game ships. There are very few things they still need to finish, the jeweler being one, but it seems at this point the game is just getting some polish before shipping. We will see in the coming weeks if the extra regen from the affix is changed or not but when I make these changes to the post I will factor in + hatred affix at different level ranges (assuming the calc will show different level ranges if not probably just numbers at 60).
Let's just hope this calc is posted soon so we can see the changes to the rune system. As it stands right now we may very well be looking at a build that can not be used until high 50's based on when runes unlock so we will see how this all affects the build soon.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ h-o-p-e-s.net ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ) Sorry had to fix that table.
Interestingly there are also Discipline modifiers (http://diablonut.incgamers.com/affix/discipline-regen). Also I saw a flat bonus to discipline in a video I just watched on YT, it was something like a quiver with +2 Discipline. Personally I'd suggest these are more/equally important modifiers compared to Hatred Gen given our whole prep philosophy. That being said, I wouldn't be suprised if it were possible to achieve such a high hatred/discipline generation from gear that we don't need Prep or SS for generation purposes and then we could go strictly Spender/Utility... Something like this:
15 disc a sec on the top affix! I know about the flat bonus to get a larger pool but I had no idea you can get such powerful disc over time affixes. You can Smoke Screen every second with that, or Screen every 2 sec and still have enough disc generated to use Vault/Shadow Power.
Also there is a side note to this. The affix is probably going to be rare, I have yet to see +disc over time, and like the Hatred one it is probably restricted to weapon/off hand. Though this does not leave out the Legendary and Set Bonuses types of armor. We might get class specific armor and set bonuses that give this affix.
Going along with that this affix may only be something that shows on Legend/Set gear. In all of my time in the beta I have yet to see Discipline over time so it will be a hard one to get.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ h-o-p-e-s.net ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ) Sorry had to fix that table.
I doubt it's in the beta, remember in D2 that affix/suffixes had a certain ilvl? Perhaps it's very similar in D3, say only an item with ilvl 50+ can have a chance at rolling a disc regen modifier? I'm not exactly sure, there's probably somewhere on the web with info about this - I might try that website linked earlier when I've got my uni work done.
I have found no solid evidence to validate my claim in the last post, but there is a general consensus that item affixes will depend on item level. Interestingly, it seems there is also a Prefix "Imbued" (http://www.diablowiki.net/Known_Items_Listing#List_of_Prefixes.2FSuffixes.2FNon-Magical_Prefixes) that reduces the cost of skills - though it appears to be class dependant and has only been seen so far as reduced mana cost etc. This means however that there should be a version for DH's. reducing H or D or both I don't know, but in the event that there are D or H reduction affixes could provide us with another method of reducing consumption. The only problem I see with this is that the value of Perfectionist will decrease with reduced D cost modifiers.
Well let's put it this way. I have personally seen hatred regen, max hatred, max discipline. I have yet to see "skill costs x less discipline/hatred" or discipline regen. I will at least say that there are some sites pointing to the existence of both of the affixes I have yet to encounter. Because of this I feel that there should be a very good chance that we will at least see those two affixes.
Even so a flat hatred regen alone is powerful enough for these affixes to be powerful.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ h-o-p-e-s.net ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ) Sorry had to fix that table.
Even so a flat hatred regen alone is powerful enough for these affixes to be powerful.
Indeed, I was just compiling info for when the number crunch occurs - it could prove to be important in our calculations! I'm getting more and more enthusiastic about nHG builds, I thought it was an original take on DH playstyle anyway and now it seems there are a lot of options available to us!
Also, just to preempt it, I'm not bothered about being a "special snowflake" - I like the idea of being able to use all of the DH's most powerful abilities and herp derp my way around Sanctuary!
P.S. Max Hatred and Max Discipline will be extremly useful in conjuction with Prep...
Even so a flat hatred regen alone is powerful enough for these affixes to be powerful.
Indeed, I was just compiling info for when the number crunch occurs - it could prove to be important in our calculations! I'm getting more and more enthusiastic about nHG builds, I thought it was an original take on DH playstyle anyway and now it seems there are a lot of options available to us!
Also, just to preempt it, I'm not bothered about being a "special snowflake" - I like the idea of being able to use all of the DH's most powerful abilities and herp derp my way around Sanctuary!
P.S. Max Hatred and Max Discipline will be extremly useful in conjuction with Prep...
Thanks! I bet I'll need all the help I can get for the number crunch. Honestly though where is this calc <_< . I am really itching to get this post polished off and ported over to the official b.net so the rest of the community can see it as well.
Oh trust me the more I have to talk in this particular thread the more I want to play these builds myself. Though I perfer to call them yellowless but that is just me XD
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ h-o-p-e-s.net ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ) Sorry had to fix that table.
Yeah I'm happy to help with any math stuff when I'm not busy with my Physics degree (Physics Major?). It seems to be taking much longer than necessary for a simple calc. I'd assume the net team are busy doing other things too. I'm mainly interested to see how it works exactly, I want to know how far I can push it and when... Can we go solid spending all the time, or will it require a certain gear level? blahblahblah
New calc is upppp! I'm going to make a list of changes relevant to us, then make a seperate post about an updated version of my own build - though I doubt it will have changed much Since the tooltips are kind of sucky it's difficult to get exact changes, I'm comparing to the diablofans calculator and my memory... Was hoping to find a cached version of official calc...
Changes:
Elemental Arrow (Frost) - changed to inflict more damage (160% -> 170%). No longer has a conal effect but the intial arrow now splits into multiple arrows after hitting the first target. Slow amount is 60% with a 1 second duration.
Rapid Fire - all runes appear to have been rebalanced though no significant effects have been altered.
Caltrops - numbers tweaked slightly. Bait the Trap has been changed to provide a 10% crit chance bonus.
Strafe - hatred costs appears to have been reduced (20/s -> 15/s), strafing speed increased but damage appears to have been reduced.
Chakram - no fundamental changes, but again balance tweaks to numbers. Only notable change is that Shuriken Cloud has had its duration increased from 70 -> 120 secs but has had its damaged reduced.
Vault - Acrobatics has been changed from increased range to removed Discipline cost but add a 15s cooldown.
Marked for Death - seems to have had an all round number nerf - notably the healing effect of Death Toll has been changed from 10% to 1% of damage dealt.
Fan of Knives - again balance changes, stun duration reduced on Fan of Daggers.
Spike Trap - no major changes. Bandolier nerfed from max 10 traps to max of 6.
Preparation - appears to have had rune effects nerfed, but not of Punishment, discipline cost reduced from 21 to 20.
Sentry - no fundamental changes.
Multishot - no fundamental changes.
Smoke Screen - no fundamental changes but Breathe Deep has been nerfed to resore only 20 Hatred per second.
Companion - balance changes. Bat Companion now provides 3 Hatred per second.
Rain of Vengeance - no fundamental changes, appears to have been nerfed a bit across the board.
Cluster Arrow - again only balance changes, notably the stun chance of Dazzling Arrow has been increased from 35% to 65%.
Shadow Power - has had a complete overhaul. No longer increases attack speed by 50%, it now grants 20% of all damage done as life over 3 seconds. 20 Discipline cost. All runes have been altered accordingly - a very interesting one for us is Night Bane, which grants 15 Hatred per second in addition to the usual effect.
Note that the old values listed are probably innacurate, but all new values are lifted right from the new calculator.
I have typed this up in a guide manner as this will be my submission in the build contest - I'm not trying to hijack your thread Azure
Due to all the changes and certain gearing options discovered recently, there are now a massive number of variables that could apply to an nHG build (aka Yellowless). I'll do my best to explain possibilities.
-----
Intro
The idea of an nHG build is quite literal, it uses no Hatred Generators. This can be achieved through several mechanics: abilities, gearing or a mixture of both. The abilities we can use are Preparation (Punishment), Smoke Screen (Breathe Deep), Companion (Bat) and now Shadow Power (Night Bane). Why would we want to do this you ask? It allows us - if done correctly - to spam our best damaging abilities whilst keeping space for defensive or support ones. The initial sections of this guide will detail exactly how an nHG build is possible, then I will go on to demonstrate possible builds.
Key Skills
The main abilities for Hatred Generation are detailed below:
Preparation - 20 Discipline cost. Restores all Hatred (variable amount). No cooldown. Required level, including rune - 35.
Smoke Screen - 15 Discipline cost. Restores 20 Hatred per second over 2 seconds, for a total of 40 Hatred. Has added bonus of retaining its escape mechanism. Required level, including rune - 45. Restores 2.66H per D.
Companion - 10 Discipline cost. Restores 3 Hatred per second over an infinite time (assuming it doesn't/can't die). Has added bonus of a small amount of additional damage. Has a technically infinite H/D ratio.
Shadow Power - 20 Discipline cost. Restores 15 Hatred per second over 3 seconds, for a total of 45 Hatred. Has added bonus of retaining its health regeneration mechanism. Restores 2.25H per D.
Assuming we have only the base hatred of 125, then Preperation restores 125H per 20D (6.25H per D), this ratio is increased further should we choose to utilise certain mechanics. It quickly becomes obvious that Preparation is vastly superior in efficiently supplying Hatred compared to our other two "on use" options, but this must be weighed against necessity and the additional effect of the other two abilities. Companion must be treated differently as it depends upon time. This will be covered further.
All of these abilities consume our Discipline in exchange for granting us Hatred - a generous trade off, but we need to ensure that we generate enough Discipline to match our expenditure. If we run out of Discipline it could potentially mean death if we can't Vault or Prep when we need to. This can be compensated for with either gear, abilites or a mixture of both. The ability choices are Preparation (unruned or Focused Mind) or Multishot (Supression Fire). The exact details will be looked at later.
Gearing
There are several useful affixes available to us, although sadly we don't yet know any exact details which prevents us from doing any math on the subject - still it is important to take a look anyway:
Hatred Regen - provides a passive bonus to Hatred regen, simple enough.
Hatred Total - increases our maximum Hatred by a fixed amount, this is useful when combined with Prep (Punishment).
Discipline Regen - provides a passive bonus to our Discipline regen, also obvious.
Discipline Total - increases our maximum Discipline by a fixed amount, this is useful with Prep (unruned) if we are relying on a form of Hatred generation that requires Discipline expenditure over a 45 second timescale (cooldown on Prep).
In theory it should be possible to create an nHG build that relies purely on gear to provide necessary resources.
Striking a Balance
As you've seen, we definitely have the tools at our disposal to make an nHG build work effectively. There is a "problem" however, we have too many options! Seriously, there are so many possibly variants on an nHG build that it would probably take a few days to work out which is "best" using math. The reason for this is that an nHG build is all about striking a balance - just how much Hatred you need depends on how much you want to spend, how much Discipline you need depends on how much Hatred you need as well as how much Discipline you need for utility. Most importantly, how much damage and utility do you lose when making these choices? As you can see it is potentially very complicated because some of these things are very hard to quantify - even then some of the things we can quantify we don't know enough about currently. Hence, the best way to evaluate is to objectively think about the overall build rather than all of the variations on the individual components.
I haven't discussed any passive because I believe that it should be possible to use any passive depending on the build style, I will hopefully demonstrate this somewhat in the builds section.
NB - I'm not saying it's impossible to do the math, just that's it's a pain in the ass.
Sample Builds
My Favourite nHG Build: takes the premise of an nHG build and throws in Caltrops for good measure.
The idea is that you use Preparation to provide Hatred, supported by a small amount of Hatred and/or Discipline regeneration gear. Frost Arrow should be the main damaging skill for its good damage and slow on hit effect - it's very reliable and relatively cheap (it's possible to spam it constantly without running out of H). A noteworthy point is that this build has good diversity in its damge types.
Multishot is in there for its runed effect of providing 1 Discipline for each monster the attack hits, it's also a strong AoE ability. Rapid Shot is the ability of choice in single target (i.e. boss) situations, it has incredible damage output and runed with Web Shot, inflicts a powerful slow, making kiting that much easier. Caltrops is there to provide an extra slow, useful when you're Multishotting for Discipline - the rune choice roots enemies briefly when the trap is initially triggered, meaning that that large stream of enemies should turn into a ready-to-pwn group - did I mention that the more enemies you hit with Multishot, the more discipline you get? Mmmmm efficiency. Vault with Tumble is there for when you need to GTFO quickly, it could easily be changed to any of the other rune choices; my second choice would be Rattling Roll.
The passives that support this build are Vengeance, Cull the Weak (CtW) and Perfectionist. Vengeance synergises well with Prep giving you more bang for your buck. CtW takes advantage of the huge amount of slowing effects in this build by increasing total damage. Perfection "perfects" the build by reducing ALL Discipline consumption, meaning the cycle of Prep'ing then unloading occurs that much quicker.
There is no real weakness in this build, other than it's jack of all trades attitude - though it will do good damage, have strong utility and also has decent escape potential - the synergies within the build make it more of a utility focused build that is good, but not great, at everything. A potential pitfall comes when you run into ranged mobs, you have the dps to eliminate them quickly, but may sustain some damage, this can be rememdied with a friendly Templar follower. The tradeoffs to make this nHG are minimal.
Moderate Crit Build - a calculating build that takes advantage of crit synergies, stuns and Shadow Power. This particular variant has moderate/low H/D generation gear requirements and hence uses Multishot as its main AoE.
The premise of all 3 of these builds is that you crit ALLLLL THE TIMEEEEE, though it does require more planning. Caltrop as normal to slow approaching cuddlemonsters, pop one on yourself then go nuts.
Rapid Fire makes a return for single target situations, Elemental Arrow takes the Lightning Bolts rune, meaning crtical hits will stun the targets! This buys you more time on Bait the Trap. Multishot is augmented with Full Broadside to provide a heavy hitting AoE which will, coincidentally, crit a LOT and net you some nice Discipline returns through passives. Shadow Power features Night Bane for H generation at a hefty cost, though it should provide excellent healing returns when used just before a Multishot, which as mentioned should quickly cover the D expenditure. Companion (Bat) is thrown in for the extra H regen.
The passives used are Nightstalker, Sharpshooter and Archery. Nightstalker is the crux of this build, it has a *chance* to provide 2 Discipline every time you crit. Sharpshooter increases your critical hit chance, moreso when you haven't crit for a while - useful for both frontloading crit before you attack or just making sure you don't go more than a nanosecond without critting Archery is taken for it's synergies when using Crossbows or Hand Crossbows, using a Crossbow you will simply do more damage and using Hand Crossbows you will simply crit more - Hand Crossbows are very useful if you have the Hatred Generation, but lack base crit.
This build is very well rounded, though you must absolutely have enough generation and crit. If it turns out that the *chance* on Nightstalker is very low, then these builds will require some form of D generation. It is also important to note that Caltrops only lasts 6 seconds - i.e. you will probably be using up your base D regen + that of a Templar with Inspire (that's 2 per second). Base D regen, gone on just Caltrops.
High Crit Build - an improved version of the above, deals higher damage at the cost of higher gear requirements, including high base crit to ensure Discipline gains.
There are two differences between this build and the last, this one utilises Marked for Death (Valley of Death), for increased damage - ideally you throw the mark over the Caltrops that are slowing the mobs down. Loaded Cluster Arrow is then taken to be the main AoE ability in place of Multishot - it hits extremely hard and literally just takes the AoE damage slot. Note that it's also plausible to still take Multishot with Marked for Death, since that H costs and damage will drop - giving more breathing room for gear reqs. You could take Rain of Vengeance (RoV) with Flying Strike for additional stuns if you could cope with the cooldown on it.
This build shares the same weaknesses as before for obvious reasons, except they are exacerbated. It will be crucial to have satisfactory gear.
Stupid Crit Build - theoretically this build would be capable of insane damage at the cost of probably unobtainable levels of H/D regeneration, it would make a solid boss build though, utilising the synergy between Rapid Fire and the Mortal Enemy variant of Marked for Death. Smoke Screen is there to allow enemies to practically cuddle you before making your escape, maximising time on Bait the Trap. This would be a reasonable build in general if it included a Hatred Generator, or used a sneaky gearing option which I'll go over later.
As this build has raised the finger to sensible Hatred Generation it is extremely vulnerable even when gear levels are satisfactory - as I said it's basically a boss build that will struggle at anything else. Why did I link it and talk about it? To show how far this nHG thing can really go - this may well be possible at Inferno gear levels.
Sensible Stupid Crit Build (ohai oxymoron) - with one change and a sneaky gearing attitude the build above can actually be a sensible high damage build. We drop the useful Marked for Death and trade it in for our good old nHG friend Prep (Punishment), combine this by gearing towards increased total Hatred (an affix I mentioned earlier) and suddenly you have a sensible build that is actually pretty balanced providing you have the Discipline gearing necesarry. Hurray! Note that you could swap Archery for Vengeance if you wanted to bias towards hatred instead of damage or Discipline.
nHG Rockets - This is to demostrate an nHG take on a rocket build, just to show the variations possible within nHG. This is an all-out, expensive damage build. If you wanted to be a little more sensible you could swap Sentry for Caltrops and one of the damaging abilities (say, Strafe) for something like Companion (Bat).
Conclusion
Hopefully I've underlined the theory, working and possible implementations of nHG builds. Using simple math we know this works at a base level - i.e. with my favourite build for example. The possibilities really are endless given the right gearing and I'm sure they'll be great fun to play.
Credit goes to azuresky808 for the inital idea of nHG (or Yellowless - as he calls them) builds, he also did a lot of the initial groundwork, i'm just taking all the credit
A very interesting build! My only concerns with it would be that you're relying purely on Marked for Death and Health Globes for your H generation, unless you gear for H generation. Also you'll be taking a lot of damage with being in the fray all the time, also I don't see Vault being your best escape option if you intend on being right in the middle of everything. Perhaps something like this might work better? Sentry provides you with a nice 20% damage reduction and Smoke Screen is a more effective "oh shit" button as well as providing some Hatred. Of course you could take the increased duration if you had no H problems. It would be interesting to see if Shuriken Cloud continues whilst you are Smoke Screened - if you popped Shadow Power and then SS it might generate you some health whilst you are running away! Though you would be losing the Gloom effect of Shadow Power...
Fell asleep too early cuz I'm not feeling good x.x I'm going to make up all the changes right after I eat. Don't expect an update to the front page for a few hours. Sad about Smoke Screen but other than that most of the changes just really seem to balance out the choices so I'm not too peeved about it.
@Exitium No worries man. Go ahead and post that for the build contest. I only made this thread as a reference point for this type of build so I am fine with people taking the information gathered here and spreading it around. Mind if I use some of those builds you just posted in the main post?
I hate sickness :|
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ h-o-p-e-s.net ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ) Sorry had to fix that table.
Hey nice read. The prefix Spiteful: Increase hatred regeneration by ?.?? per second. What i have seen the same item with the same prefix can have a different amount or regeneration.
The amount changes. When you make an item it checks 2 things. The items level and RNG. The items level will determine what bracket it falls into, there are 10 brackets. The RNG will determine the exact value from the range. At level 1-10 the range is about .5-.9 but at level 60 the range is 2.5ish-3.33.
Hope that helps.
Edit: Also most of the work is nearing completion. I need to remake all the builds since the calc links are all broke x.x. NBD really it will just take a little bit of time and it should be all finished. That and the math.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ h-o-p-e-s.net ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ) Sorry had to fix that table.
@Exitium You know Vault has a rune that removes the cost now! Also the changes to SP really make it powerful for these builds. Kinda sucks that it was 'nerfed' but honestly now it works really nicely in these builds.
When factoring in the affixes from weapons at level 60 the hatred returns are very solid. It looks like we need to use even less discipline than before. Possibly making something like Prep + Vengeance overkill. On that note I would have to add that Prep + any discipline regen/reduction passive is just plain overkill when using a 1h xbow. I have yet to finish the math for all of the outcomes but it will be posted shortly!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ h-o-p-e-s.net ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ) Sorry had to fix that table.
There are several useful affixes available to us, although sadly we don't yet know any exact details which prevents us from doing any math on the subject - still it is important to take a look anyway:
Hatred Regen - provides a passive bonus to Hatred regen, simple enough.
Hatred Total - increases our maximum Hatred by a fixed amount, this is useful when combined with Prep (Punishment).
Discipline Regen - provides a passive bonus to our Discipline regen, also obvious.
Discipline Total - increases our maximum Discipline by a fixed amount, this is useful with Prep (unruned) if we are relying on a form of Hatred generation that requires Discipline expenditure over a 45 second timescale (cooldown on Prep).
Imbued (http://www.diablowik...agical_Prefixes) - provides flat reductions to skill costs, little is known about this affix as it has only been seen a few times and appears to be class specific.
In theory it should be possible to create an nHG build that relies purely on gear to provide necessary resources.
According to the latest patch data, not all of these mods are actually available.
Resource_Max_Bonus (http://www.d3inferno..._Max_Bonus.html)
* You can get +Discipline, but not +Hatred
* Available on Hand Crossbows, Quivers, and Cloaks
* Maximum value is +15 Discipline (+45 total possible while dual wielding, +30 total otherwise)
Resource_Regen_Per_Second (http://www.d3inferno...Per_Second.html)
* You can get Hatred Regen, but not Discipline Regen
* Available on Hand Crossbows, Quivers, and Cloaks
* Maximum value is 3.33 per second (10.00 total possible with a 1h xbow, 6.66 total otherwise)
Power_Resource_Reduction (http://www.d3inferno..._Reduction.html)
* Chakram: 1-2 per item, 5 slots max => -10 hatred max (free Chakram)
* Impale: 1-3 per item, 5 slots max => -15 hatred max (10 hatred Impale)
* Strafe: 1-2 per item, 5 slots max => -10 hatred max (5 hatred Strafe)
@Exitium You know Vault has a rune that removes the cost now! Also the changes to SP really make it powerful for these builds. Kinda sucks that it was 'nerfed' but honestly now it works really nicely in these builds. When factoring in the affixes from weapons at level 60 the hatred returns are very solid. It looks like we need to use even less discipline than before. Possibly making something like Prep + Vengeance overkill. On that note I would have to add that Prep + any discipline regen/reduction passive is just plain overkill when using a 1h xbow. I have yet to finish the math for all of the outcomes but it will be posted shortly!
Yeah I saw that, but it adds a cooldown which could be dangerous in some situations - it's give and take really.
Thanks for those links Chippy, I'll take a look at them. Hopefully all it means is that we'll need to do some rearranging of talents to factor in those updated mods, at worst we may have to stick to a build like azure had originally posted - which isn't bad at all. I'll update my post when I've finished looking over stuff.
There are several useful affixes available to us, although sadly we don't yet know any exact details which prevents us from doing any math on the subject - still it is important to take a look anyway:
Hatred Regen - provides a passive bonus to Hatred regen, simple enough.
Hatred Total - increases our maximum Hatred by a fixed amount, this is useful when combined with Prep (Punishment).
Discipline Regen - provides a passive bonus to our Discipline regen, also obvious.
Discipline Total - increases our maximum Discipline by a fixed amount, this is useful with Prep (unruned) if we are relying on a form of Hatred generation that requires Discipline expenditure over a 45 second timescale (cooldown on Prep).
Imbued (http://www.diablowik...agical_Prefixes) - provides flat reductions to skill costs, little is known about this affix as it has only been seen a few times and appears to be class specific.
In theory it should be possible to create an nHG build that relies purely on gear to provide necessary resources.
According to the latest patch data, not all of these mods are actually available.
Resource_Max_Bonus (http://www.d3inferno..._Max_Bonus.html)
* You can get +Discipline, but not +Hatred
* Available on Hand Crossbows, Quivers, and Cloaks
* Maximum value is +15 Discipline (+45 total possible while dual wielding, +30 total otherwise)
Resource_Regen_Per_Second (http://www.d3inferno...Per_Second.html)
* You can get Hatred Regen, but not Discipline Regen
* Available on Hand Crossbows, Quivers, and Cloaks
* Maximum value is 3.33 per second (13.33 total possible while dual wielding, 10.00 total otherwise)
Power_Resource_Reduction (http://www.d3inferno..._Reduction.html)
* Chakram: 1-2 per item, 5 slots max => -10 hatred max (free Chakram)
* Impale: 1-3 per item, 5 slots max => -15 hatred max (10 hatred Impale)
* Strafe: 1-2 per item, 5 slots max => -10 hatred max (5 hatred Strafe)
Here is the problem. These 3rd party sites conflict each other as well as we have yet to see most of these affixes in game. Although I do encourage numbers to be thrown around and used to try and benefit builds I highly stress to not use data about things we have yet to see from Blizz. They keep most of this information under wraps because it is highly subject to change. This is the way they always have been and I have a feeling this is how it will remain.
It may be in the patch data but the only ones available to the players are +hatred per sec and max hatred/disc. Also even if it is in the patch data you have to remember that it may just not be turned on! The data could just be there because someone was too lazy to remove it if it is turned off. Programmers, and I am one, have a tendency to be lazy and instead of delete information they just disable it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ h-o-p-e-s.net ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ) Sorry had to fix that table.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Yes that 10 passive regen sounds quite over powered. They might be changing this. The most recent blue posts basically said now that patch 13 is out they will be doing balance changes until the game ships. There are very few things they still need to finish, the jeweler being one, but it seems at this point the game is just getting some polish before shipping. We will see in the coming weeks if the extra regen from the affix is changed or not but when I make these changes to the post I will factor in + hatred affix at different level ranges (assuming the calc will show different level ranges if not probably just numbers at 60).
Let's just hope this calc is posted soon so we can see the changes to the rune system. As it stands right now we may very well be looking at a build that can not be used until high 50's based on when runes unlock so we will see how this all affects the build soon.
h-o-p-e-s.net
┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
Sorry had to fix that table.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#XVSlbd!bUc!YZaacY
Real quick just to show how diverse a build like that could be - and yes, i know the calculator is due to be updated any day now.
Also there is a side note to this. The affix is probably going to be rare, I have yet to see +disc over time, and like the Hatred one it is probably restricted to weapon/off hand. Though this does not leave out the Legendary and Set Bonuses types of armor. We might get class specific armor and set bonuses that give this affix.
Going along with that this affix may only be something that shows on Legend/Set gear. In all of my time in the beta I have yet to see Discipline over time so it will be a hard one to get.
h-o-p-e-s.net
┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
Sorry had to fix that table.
I have found no solid evidence to validate my claim in the last post, but there is a general consensus that item affixes will depend on item level. Interestingly, it seems there is also a Prefix "Imbued" (http://www.diablowiki.net/Known_Items_Listing#List_of_Prefixes.2FSuffixes.2FNon-Magical_Prefixes) that reduces the cost of skills - though it appears to be class dependant and has only been seen so far as reduced mana cost etc. This means however that there should be a version for DH's. reducing H or D or both I don't know, but in the event that there are D or H reduction affixes could provide us with another method of reducing consumption. The only problem I see with this is that the value of Perfectionist will decrease with reduced D cost modifiers.
Even so a flat hatred regen alone is powerful enough for these affixes to be powerful.
h-o-p-e-s.net
┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
Sorry had to fix that table.
Indeed, I was just compiling info for when the number crunch occurs - it could prove to be important in our calculations! I'm getting more and more enthusiastic about nHG builds, I thought it was an original take on DH playstyle anyway and now it seems there are a lot of options available to us!
Also, just to preempt it, I'm not bothered about being a "special snowflake" - I like the idea of being able to use all of the DH's most powerful abilities and herp derp my way around Sanctuary!
P.S. Max Hatred and Max Discipline will be extremly useful in conjuction with Prep...
Thanks! I bet I'll need all the help I can get for the number crunch. Honestly though where is this calc <_< . I am really itching to get this post polished off and ported over to the official b.net so the rest of the community can see it as well.
Oh trust me the more I have to talk in this particular thread the more I want to play these builds myself. Though I perfer to call them yellowless but that is just me XD
h-o-p-e-s.net
┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
Sorry had to fix that table.
Changes:
Due to all the changes and certain gearing options discovered recently, there are now a massive number of variables that could apply to an nHG build (aka Yellowless). I'll do my best to explain possibilities.
-----
Intro
The idea of an nHG build is quite literal, it uses no Hatred Generators. This can be achieved through several mechanics: abilities, gearing or a mixture of both. The abilities we can use are Preparation (Punishment), Smoke Screen (Breathe Deep), Companion (Bat) and now Shadow Power (Night Bane). Why would we want to do this you ask? It allows us - if done correctly - to spam our best damaging abilities whilst keeping space for defensive or support ones. The initial sections of this guide will detail exactly how an nHG build is possible, then I will go on to demonstrate possible builds.
Key Skills
The main abilities for Hatred Generation are detailed below:
All of these abilities consume our Discipline in exchange for granting us Hatred - a generous trade off, but we need to ensure that we generate enough Discipline to match our expenditure. If we run out of Discipline it could potentially mean death if we can't Vault or Prep when we need to. This can be compensated for with either gear, abilites or a mixture of both. The ability choices are Preparation (unruned or Focused Mind) or Multishot (Supression Fire). The exact details will be looked at later.
Gearing
There are several useful affixes available to us, although sadly we don't yet know any exact details which prevents us from doing any math on the subject - still it is important to take a look anyway:
Hatred Regen - provides a passive bonus to Hatred regen, simple enough.
Hatred Total - increases our maximum Hatred by a fixed amount, this is useful when combined with Prep (Punishment).
Discipline Regen - provides a passive bonus to our Discipline regen, also obvious.
Discipline Total - increases our maximum Discipline by a fixed amount, this is useful with Prep (unruned) if we are relying on a form of Hatred generation that requires Discipline expenditure over a 45 second timescale (cooldown on Prep).
Imbued (http://www.diablowiki.net/Known_Items_Listing#List_of_Prefixes.2FSuffixes.2FNon-Magical_Prefixes) - provides flat reductions to skill costs, little is known about this affix as it has only been seen a few times and appears to be class specific.
In theory it should be possible to create an nHG build that relies purely on gear to provide necessary resources.
Striking a Balance
As you've seen, we definitely have the tools at our disposal to make an nHG build work effectively. There is a "problem" however, we have too many options! Seriously, there are so many possibly variants on an nHG build that it would probably take a few days to work out which is "best" using math. The reason for this is that an nHG build is all about striking a balance - just how much Hatred you need depends on how much you want to spend, how much Discipline you need depends on how much Hatred you need as well as how much Discipline you need for utility. Most importantly, how much damage and utility do you lose when making these choices? As you can see it is potentially very complicated because some of these things are very hard to quantify - even then some of the things we can quantify we don't know enough about currently. Hence, the best way to evaluate is to objectively think about the overall build rather than all of the variations on the individual components.
I haven't discussed any passive because I believe that it should be possible to use any passive depending on the build style, I will hopefully demonstrate this somewhat in the builds section.
NB - I'm not saying it's impossible to do the math, just that's it's a pain in the ass.
Sample Builds
My Favourite nHG Build: takes the premise of an nHG build and throws in Caltrops for good measure.
The idea is that you use Preparation to provide Hatred, supported by a small amount of Hatred and/or Discipline regeneration gear. Frost Arrow should be the main damaging skill for its good damage and slow on hit effect - it's very reliable and relatively cheap (it's possible to spam it constantly without running out of H). A noteworthy point is that this build has good diversity in its damge types.
Multishot is in there for its runed effect of providing 1 Discipline for each monster the attack hits, it's also a strong AoE ability. Rapid Shot is the ability of choice in single target (i.e. boss) situations, it has incredible damage output and runed with Web Shot, inflicts a powerful slow, making kiting that much easier. Caltrops is there to provide an extra slow, useful when you're Multishotting for Discipline - the rune choice roots enemies briefly when the trap is initially triggered, meaning that that large stream of enemies should turn into a ready-to-pwn group - did I mention that the more enemies you hit with Multishot, the more discipline you get? Mmmmm efficiency. Vault with Tumble is there for when you need to GTFO quickly, it could easily be changed to any of the other rune choices; my second choice would be Rattling Roll.
The passives that support this build are Vengeance, Cull the Weak (CtW) and Perfectionist. Vengeance synergises well with Prep giving you more bang for your buck. CtW takes advantage of the huge amount of slowing effects in this build by increasing total damage. Perfection "perfects" the build by reducing ALL Discipline consumption, meaning the cycle of Prep'ing then unloading occurs that much quicker.
There is no real weakness in this build, other than it's jack of all trades attitude - though it will do good damage, have strong utility and also has decent escape potential - the synergies within the build make it more of a utility focused build that is good, but not great, at everything. A potential pitfall comes when you run into ranged mobs, you have the dps to eliminate them quickly, but may sustain some damage, this can be rememdied with a friendly Templar follower. The tradeoffs to make this nHG are minimal.
Moderate Crit Build - a calculating build that takes advantage of crit synergies, stuns and Shadow Power. This particular variant has moderate/low H/D generation gear requirements and hence uses Multishot as its main AoE.
The premise of all 3 of these builds is that you crit ALLLLL THE TIMEEEEE, though it does require more planning. Caltrop as normal to slow approaching cuddlemonsters, pop one on yourself then go nuts.
Rapid Fire makes a return for single target situations, Elemental Arrow takes the Lightning Bolts rune, meaning crtical hits will stun the targets! This buys you more time on Bait the Trap. Multishot is augmented with Full Broadside to provide a heavy hitting AoE which will, coincidentally, crit a LOT and net you some nice Discipline returns through passives. Shadow Power features Night Bane for H generation at a hefty cost, though it should provide excellent healing returns when used just before a Multishot, which as mentioned should quickly cover the D expenditure. Companion (Bat) is thrown in for the extra H regen.
The passives used are Nightstalker, Sharpshooter and Archery. Nightstalker is the crux of this build, it has a *chance* to provide 2 Discipline every time you crit. Sharpshooter increases your critical hit chance, moreso when you haven't crit for a while - useful for both frontloading crit before you attack or just making sure you don't go more than a nanosecond without critting Archery is taken for it's synergies when using Crossbows or Hand Crossbows, using a Crossbow you will simply do more damage and using Hand Crossbows you will simply crit more - Hand Crossbows are very useful if you have the Hatred Generation, but lack base crit.
This build is very well rounded, though you must absolutely have enough generation and crit. If it turns out that the *chance* on Nightstalker is very low, then these builds will require some form of D generation. It is also important to note that Caltrops only lasts 6 seconds - i.e. you will probably be using up your base D regen + that of a Templar with Inspire (that's 2 per second). Base D regen, gone on just Caltrops.
High Crit Build - an improved version of the above, deals higher damage at the cost of higher gear requirements, including high base crit to ensure Discipline gains.
There are two differences between this build and the last, this one utilises Marked for Death (Valley of Death), for increased damage - ideally you throw the mark over the Caltrops that are slowing the mobs down. Loaded Cluster Arrow is then taken to be the main AoE ability in place of Multishot - it hits extremely hard and literally just takes the AoE damage slot. Note that it's also plausible to still take Multishot with Marked for Death, since that H costs and damage will drop - giving more breathing room for gear reqs. You could take Rain of Vengeance (RoV) with Flying Strike for additional stuns if you could cope with the cooldown on it.
This build shares the same weaknesses as before for obvious reasons, except they are exacerbated. It will be crucial to have satisfactory gear.
Stupid Crit Build - theoretically this build would be capable of insane damage at the cost of probably unobtainable levels of H/D regeneration, it would make a solid boss build though, utilising the synergy between Rapid Fire and the Mortal Enemy variant of Marked for Death. Smoke Screen is there to allow enemies to practically cuddle you before making your escape, maximising time on Bait the Trap. This would be a reasonable build in general if it included a Hatred Generator, or used a sneaky gearing option which I'll go over later.
As this build has raised the finger to sensible Hatred Generation it is extremely vulnerable even when gear levels are satisfactory - as I said it's basically a boss build that will struggle at anything else. Why did I link it and talk about it? To show how far this nHG thing can really go - this may well be possible at Inferno gear levels.
Sensible Stupid Crit Build (ohai oxymoron) - with one change and a sneaky gearing attitude the build above can actually be a sensible high damage build. We drop the useful Marked for Death and trade it in for our good old nHG friend Prep (Punishment), combine this by gearing towards increased total Hatred (an affix I mentioned earlier) and suddenly you have a sensible build that is actually pretty balanced providing you have the Discipline gearing necesarry. Hurray! Note that you could swap Archery for Vengeance if you wanted to bias towards hatred instead of damage or Discipline.
nHG Rockets - This is to demostrate an nHG take on a rocket build, just to show the variations possible within nHG. This is an all-out, expensive damage build. If you wanted to be a little more sensible you could swap Sentry for Caltrops and one of the damaging abilities (say, Strafe) for something like Companion (Bat).
Conclusion
Hopefully I've underlined the theory, working and possible implementations of nHG builds. Using simple math we know this works at a base level - i.e. with my favourite build for example. The possibilities really are endless given the right gearing and I'm sure they'll be great fun to play.
Credit goes to azuresky808 for the inital idea of nHG (or Yellowless - as he calls them) builds, he also did a lot of the initial groundwork, i'm just taking all the credit
A very interesting build! My only concerns with it would be that you're relying purely on Marked for Death and Health Globes for your H generation, unless you gear for H generation. Also you'll be taking a lot of damage with being in the fray all the time, also I don't see Vault being your best escape option if you intend on being right in the middle of everything. Perhaps something like this might work better? Sentry provides you with a nice 20% damage reduction and Smoke Screen is a more effective "oh shit" button as well as providing some Hatred. Of course you could take the increased duration if you had no H problems. It would be interesting to see if Shuriken Cloud continues whilst you are Smoke Screened - if you popped Shadow Power and then SS it might generate you some health whilst you are running away! Though you would be losing the Gloom effect of Shadow Power...
All IMO of course.
@Exitium No worries man. Go ahead and post that for the build contest. I only made this thread as a reference point for this type of build so I am fine with people taking the information gathered here and spreading it around. Mind if I use some of those builds you just posted in the main post?
I hate sickness :|
h-o-p-e-s.net
┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
Sorry had to fix that table.
Yeah of course you can. Feel free to do your own take on them too.
Hope that helps.
Edit: Also most of the work is nearing completion. I need to remake all the builds since the calc links are all broke x.x. NBD really it will just take a little bit of time and it should be all finished. That and the math.
h-o-p-e-s.net
┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
Sorry had to fix that table.
When factoring in the affixes from weapons at level 60 the hatred returns are very solid. It looks like we need to use even less discipline than before. Possibly making something like Prep + Vengeance overkill. On that note I would have to add that Prep + any discipline regen/reduction passive is just plain overkill when using a 1h xbow. I have yet to finish the math for all of the outcomes but it will be posted shortly!
h-o-p-e-s.net
┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
Sorry had to fix that table.
According to the latest patch data, not all of these mods are actually available.
Resource_Max_Bonus (http://www.d3inferno..._Max_Bonus.html)
* You can get +Discipline, but not +Hatred
* Available on Hand Crossbows, Quivers, and Cloaks
* Maximum value is +15 Discipline (+45 total possible while dual wielding, +30 total otherwise)
Resource_Regen_Per_Second (http://www.d3inferno...Per_Second.html)
* You can get Hatred Regen, but not Discipline Regen
* Available on Hand Crossbows, Quivers, and Cloaks
* Maximum value is 3.33 per second (10.00 total possible with a 1h xbow, 6.66 total otherwise)
Power_Resource_Reduction (http://www.d3inferno..._Reduction.html)
* Chakram: 1-2 per item, 5 slots max => -10 hatred max (free Chakram)
* Impale: 1-3 per item, 5 slots max => -15 hatred max (10 hatred Impale)
* Strafe: 1-2 per item, 5 slots max => -10 hatred max (5 hatred Strafe)
Yeah I saw that, but it adds a cooldown which could be dangerous in some situations - it's give and take really.
Thanks for those links Chippy, I'll take a look at them. Hopefully all it means is that we'll need to do some rearranging of talents to factor in those updated mods, at worst we may have to stick to a build like azure had originally posted - which isn't bad at all. I'll update my post when I've finished looking over stuff.
Here is the problem. These 3rd party sites conflict each other as well as we have yet to see most of these affixes in game. Although I do encourage numbers to be thrown around and used to try and benefit builds I highly stress to not use data about things we have yet to see from Blizz. They keep most of this information under wraps because it is highly subject to change. This is the way they always have been and I have a feeling this is how it will remain.
It may be in the patch data but the only ones available to the players are +hatred per sec and max hatred/disc. Also even if it is in the patch data you have to remember that it may just not be turned on! The data could just be there because someone was too lazy to remove it if it is turned off. Programmers, and I am one, have a tendency to be lazy and instead of delete information they just disable it.
h-o-p-e-s.net
┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
Sorry had to fix that table.