It does hit twice, either because you cast twice, or that MS is mapped that way with it equipped. If you pay attention to see a sentry's arsenal rocket hit a lone mob, it flashes two simular numbers.
How would 100% sentry dmg from bombard compare to double shot from DML?
damage equation wise?
I dont think that it's simple as double attack vs double damage, but if that is the point, then one would have to weight only initial 40% of life untill DML kicks in, which would lead to another comparison of CA on manticore and MS on YR, and on and on.
So, just equation wise, where does sentry dmg fit in?
How would 100% sentry dmg from bombard compare to double shot from DML?
damage equation wise?
I dont think that it's simple as double attack vs double damage, but if that is the point, then one would have to weight only initial 40% of life untill DML kicks in, which would lead to another comparison of CA on manticore and MS on YR, and on and on.
So, just equation wise, where does sentry dmg fit in?
My math isn't eligant, so I made two profiles that can show you.
Both are maxed out the best I know, it should compare HfA/FnR vs EW/zodiac and MS and CA's support legendaries.
To answer your question Ch1zra, click on the Skills/Effects tab at the top of the screen. Underneath CA and MS you can click on sentry rocket dmg or sentry damage to illustrate that sentry bonus damage is a separate multiplier.
MS build will have a 30% sentry multiplier and the CA build will have 130%, the kicker is while dynamic, its only effect is on M4 multiplier, not M6.
You'll also see that MS's total damage per cast at 17.8billion, and CA's total per cast at 47.2billion. For MS it does the math for you at 5.0 aps or 89B dps. CA is 47.2 x 2.42aps = 114.2B dps.
Now here is the K.O. kicker, that senario is single target dps. AND DML's orange text is not represented in that conclusion.
In reality(doing X2 dmg 60% of the time), you could expect 142.4 billion single target dps with MS arsenal. MS will do substancially more damage when its able to hit 30, 50, or 100+ additional targets. Prior to doing this I thought that CA would surely do more dmg in low target situations, evidently my napkin math was low balled. (For the sheep; CA - shooting stars only hits 136.2 billion single target dps.)
The reason for this is because all of MS's support legendaries directly effect M4 and M6, while the cookie cutter CA uses BRS, while incredibly strong doesn't effect M6 an x31 multiplier.
Additionally, zodiac brings 100% wolf uptime, 50 hatred every 5-7 seconds, and sentries are more readily available. Yangs recurve also has 50 RCR, while manticore is specifically CA RCR. This makes spirit spenders and sentry cost twice as cheap.
The cons, MS hatred per second is 56.25, while CA is only 43.56. Considering both builds have seethe, bat, and a Templar, they gain 17hps. Leaving them at 39.25 and 26.56. Factor in bat activation 8.33hps for MS, and 2.5hps for CA.
MS requires 30.92 hatred cost per second
CA requires 24.06 hps
Both builds should be adequately topped in resource with 1 globe support in your party.
Zei's Stone is the number one dps gem for Marauder builds because of the synergy with sentries..
In the situation I would like to apply this build, high GR experience runs or pushes if the dmg ends up being worthy. Ideally a globe barb present. In the 75 solo grs I did I could face tank quite comfortably.
This leads me to reason, with ignore pain in group, I could comfortably plant near density to make use of 30 stacks of pain enhancer (90% ias) in GR85s.
Using Endless walk, Zei's may make me consider repositioning and break dmg. Or I stay still and mobs move closer to me reducing Zei's bonus.
Another reason would be with MS my dmg makes up roughly 45% and sentries make up 55%. CA is something like 33/66%. So sentry dmg and position I think gets a bit less benifit from Zeis.
Pain enhancers IAS can nearly double your damage when resource can support it. I would certainly use Zei's in solo though. Zei's is stupid strong and could be used for groups too, but I think I'll prefer the IAS and zodiac synergy from PE.
This is taken from diablo wiki, not any "advanced" source;
Pain Enhancer is a Legendary Gem in Diablo III. It can only be socketed into Amulets and Rings, and drops from Greater RiftGuardians.
This gem causes Critical Hits to apply a Bleed effect to the enemy. Each Critical Hit, regardless of Proc Coefficient, applies one, but they do not stack, only being renewed to full duration. This works even on pets and minions. Upgrading increases total damage done (and damage per second).
At rank 25, it also increases Attack Speed
for every bleeding enemy close to the player. However, it only counts
enemies that are under any Bleed effect (not just the Pain Enhancer's
own Bleed) applied by that player, their pets or minions. If enemy
bleeds from more than one source, they will still grant one stack of
Blood Frenzy.
This gem is of most use to Physical skill builds. The effect itself has a Proc Coefficient of zero, and cannot score a Critical Hit (increasing flat damage proportionally to the Critical Hit chance and damage instead).
And this is from Icy Veins;
Zei's Stone of Vengeance is another independent multiplier, whose range-dependent amplification can be easily maxed out by the long reach of Cluster Arrow. The level 25 property will add some minor control and safety to the build, as well as another proc for Bane of the Trapped. Note that Sentries range is independent from yours when it comes to Zei damage bonuses, so spread them accordingly and don't get greedy for additional slows.
I'm aware that I need 30 targets within range bleeding to get the full benifit of PE. THE bleed is negligable dmg as M6 doesn't boost it, physical build or not.
To my knowledge, Zei's max bonus is 50+ yards away which CA can reach and sentries can fire from off screen. Was your point that CA is often utilizing the 50+ yrd dmg bonus?
Zei treats each source of damage seperately, which means a massive amount of damage bonus for farther located sentries. While it may be limited to 50 yards, damage multiplier can be upgraded infinitely.
On the other hand the proximity required to benefit from exterior bleed source is 20-30yards or smt. Even if you somehow manage to stay alive trying to collect those stacks from the group "bleeder", the attack speed you are trying to squeeze out is already overkill for MS version. For CA builds attack speed is maybe the least favourable damage stat, because they already get boosted from using a heavier weapon, higher base damage/chc/chd
"While it may be limited to 50 yards, damage multiplier can be upgraded infinitely."
Are you saying that Zei's will do more damage at 70yds vs 50yds? To my knowledge zei's bonus is the same at 50 yds or 100yds.
I would think that if you and all 5 sentries are 50+ yrds you would get the listed 50yd multiplier. If I am wrong here something could be said for keeping your sentries incredibly far off screen.
Either way Zei's would be a more grounded and static option while Pain Enhancer would shine in density. Think GG caverns of arenea(spelling >. <), or Spire tile sets.
Damage you deal is increased by X for every 10 yards between you and the enemy hit. Maximum 5X increase at 50 yards.
50 yards is a fixed maximum range but you can upgrade X infintely. There isn't a single averaged outcome. Each and every source of damage is calculated separately; you , sentry-1, sentry-2, pet-1,pet-2, etc.
Ok I see what you are saying, that a lvl80 zei's is better then a lvl75, but pain enhancer doesn't get much better lvl25 to 80. Gotcha
I'm sure I could figure it out, at how many stacks of pain enhancer beats say a lvl90 Zeis (42.5%) my guess would be like 50%ias, or 16-17 targets bleeding.
I'm having a hard time understanding how Zei's works with how you explained it so let me ask you a question.
If you were to compare a lvl90 Bane of the Trapped (42%) multiplier, and a lvl90 Zeis (42.5%) assuming you and all 5 sentries are casting 50+ yds. Are you saying that Zei's gives more then .5% advantage over trapped?
Follow up question, do you think zei's continues to get higher @60, 70, 80 yards?
You brought up some build(s) using Pain Enhancer instead of Zei.
If you are comparing the simulation results in d3 planner, it would be totally missleading because you have adjusted PE stacks to 30, which is totally unrealistic. When averaging ups and downs in any given scenario, I wouldn't set it higher than 5-6 to have a fair calculation. With same logic I would set Zei distance parameter to 35- 40, to have an average and more believeable result.
Bott is totally another story, with different variables.
My final words regarding gems;
Bott and Zei are top 2 choices for any Marauder build. I would not even consider changing those unless a superior new design pops up in a future patch.
Taeguk is arguaby best 3rd gem whether you love it or hate it..
Ok... I was having trouble understanding your explination of how Zei's worked so I asked a question regarding bott to give me an idea of how strong you believe zei's is.
2nd, I'm aware that avg stacks of PE will be lower then 30 throughout a rift. Why I will still likely use PE in a high GR push setting is because it would further amplify MS's strength in high density scenarios. Which is what your team will be fishing for anyways.
When a GG spires map keeps the mob cluster growing the deeper you go, PE is doing phenomenal work moving the progress bar.
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It does hit twice, either because you cast twice, or that MS is mapped that way with it equipped. If you pay attention to see a sentry's arsenal rocket hit a lone mob, it flashes two simular numbers.
Quick question on this topic:
How would 100% sentry dmg from bombard compare to double shot from DML?
damage equation wise?
I dont think that it's simple as double attack vs double damage, but if that is the point, then one would have to weight only initial 40% of life untill DML kicks in, which would lead to another comparison of CA on manticore and MS on YR, and on and on.
So, just equation wise, where does sentry dmg fit in?
I mean you harm.
+2 sentries vs X2 MS below 60%.
The skill increase on each item kind of even out eachother..
My math isn't eligant, so I made two profiles that can show you.
www.d3planner.com/289044778 CA Maelstrom
www.d3planner.com/653150511 MS Arsenal
Both are maxed out the best I know, it should compare HfA/FnR vs EW/zodiac and MS and CA's support legendaries.
To answer your question Ch1zra, click on the Skills/Effects tab at the top of the screen. Underneath CA and MS you can click on sentry rocket dmg or sentry damage to illustrate that sentry bonus damage is a separate multiplier.
MS build will have a 30% sentry multiplier and the CA build will have 130%, the kicker is while dynamic, its only effect is on M4 multiplier, not M6.
You'll also see that MS's total damage per cast at 17.8billion, and CA's total per cast at 47.2billion. For MS it does the math for you at 5.0 aps or 89B dps. CA is 47.2 x 2.42aps = 114.2B dps.
Now here is the K.O. kicker, that senario is single target dps. AND DML's orange text is not represented in that conclusion.
In reality(doing X2 dmg 60% of the time), you could expect 142.4 billion single target dps with MS arsenal. MS will do substancially more damage when its able to hit 30, 50, or 100+ additional targets. Prior to doing this I thought that CA would surely do more dmg in low target situations, evidently my napkin math was low balled. (For the sheep; CA - shooting stars only hits 136.2 billion single target dps.)
The reason for this is because all of MS's support legendaries directly effect M4 and M6, while the cookie cutter CA uses BRS, while incredibly strong doesn't effect M6 an x31 multiplier.
Additionally, zodiac brings 100% wolf uptime, 50 hatred every 5-7 seconds, and sentries are more readily available. Yangs recurve also has 50 RCR, while manticore is specifically CA RCR. This makes spirit spenders and sentry cost twice as cheap.
The cons, MS hatred per second is 56.25, while CA is only 43.56. Considering both builds have seethe, bat, and a Templar, they gain 17hps. Leaving them at 39.25 and 26.56. Factor in bat activation 8.33hps for MS, and 2.5hps for CA.
MS requires 30.92 hatred cost per second
CA requires 24.06 hps
Both builds should be adequately topped in resource with 1 globe support in your party.
Aptis
Apart from anything else we had discussed,
Why not Zei's Stone?!
Why Pain Enhancer?
Zei's Stone is the number one dps gem for Marauder builds because of the synergy with sentries..
In the situation I would like to apply this build, high GR experience runs or pushes if the dmg ends up being worthy. Ideally a globe barb present. In the 75 solo grs I did I could face tank quite comfortably.
This leads me to reason, with ignore pain in group, I could comfortably plant near density to make use of 30 stacks of pain enhancer (90% ias) in GR85s.
Using Endless walk, Zei's may make me consider repositioning and break dmg. Or I stay still and mobs move closer to me reducing Zei's bonus.
Another reason would be with MS my dmg makes up roughly 45% and sentries make up 55%. CA is something like 33/66%. So sentry dmg and position I think gets a bit less benifit from Zeis.
Pain enhancers IAS can nearly double your damage when resource can support it. I would certainly use Zei's in solo though. Zei's is stupid strong and could be used for groups too, but I think I'll prefer the IAS and zodiac synergy from PE.
This is taken from diablo wiki, not any "advanced" source;
And this is from Icy Veins;
I'm aware that I need 30 targets within range bleeding to get the full benifit of PE. THE bleed is negligable dmg as M6 doesn't boost it, physical build or not.
To my knowledge, Zei's max bonus is 50+ yards away which CA can reach and sentries can fire from off screen. Was your point that CA is often utilizing the 50+ yrd dmg bonus?
Zei treats each source of damage seperately, which means a massive amount of damage bonus for farther located sentries. While it may be limited to 50 yards, damage multiplier can be upgraded infinitely.
On the other hand the proximity required to benefit from exterior bleed source is 20-30yards or smt. Even if you somehow manage to stay alive trying to collect those stacks from the group "bleeder", the attack speed you are trying to squeeze out is already overkill for MS version. For CA builds attack speed is maybe the least favourable damage stat, because they already get boosted from using a heavier weapon, higher base damage/chc/chd
"While it may be limited to 50 yards, damage multiplier can be upgraded infinitely."
Are you saying that Zei's will do more damage at 70yds vs 50yds? To my knowledge zei's bonus is the same at 50 yds or 100yds.
I would think that if you and all 5 sentries are 50+ yrds you would get the listed 50yd multiplier. If I am wrong here something could be said for keeping your sentries incredibly far off screen.
Either way Zei's would be a more grounded and static option while Pain Enhancer would shine in density. Think GG caverns of arenea(spelling >. <), or Spire tile sets.
Damage you deal is increased by X for every 10 yards between you and the enemy hit. Maximum 5X increase at 50 yards.
50 yards is a fixed maximum range but you can upgrade X infintely. There isn't a single averaged outcome. Each and every source of damage is calculated separately; you , sentry-1, sentry-2, pet-1,pet-2, etc.
Ok I see what you are saying, that a lvl80 zei's is better then a lvl75, but pain enhancer doesn't get much better lvl25 to 80. Gotcha
I'm sure I could figure it out, at how many stacks of pain enhancer beats say a lvl90 Zeis (42.5%) my guess would be like 50%ias, or 16-17 targets bleeding.
No I'm saying that a Zei's Stone of Vengeance is completely on another league as a dynamic damage multiplier.
I'm having a hard time understanding how Zei's works with how you explained it so let me ask you a question.
If you were to compare a lvl90 Bane of the Trapped (42%) multiplier, and a lvl90 Zeis (42.5%) assuming you and all 5 sentries are casting 50+ yds. Are you saying that Zei's gives more then .5% advantage over trapped?
Follow up question, do you think zei's continues to get higher @60, 70, 80 yards?
I never compared Zei with Bott.
You brought up some build(s) using Pain Enhancer instead of Zei.
If you are comparing the simulation results in d3 planner, it would be totally missleading because you have adjusted PE stacks to 30, which is totally unrealistic. When averaging ups and downs in any given scenario, I wouldn't set it higher than 5-6 to have a fair calculation. With same logic I would set Zei distance parameter to 35- 40, to have an average and more believeable result.
Bott is totally another story, with different variables.
My final words regarding gems;
Bott and Zei are top 2 choices for any Marauder build. I would not even consider changing those unless a superior new design pops up in a future patch.
Taeguk is arguaby best 3rd gem whether you love it or hate it..
Ok... I was having trouble understanding your explination of how Zei's worked so I asked a question regarding bott to give me an idea of how strong you believe zei's is.
2nd, I'm aware that avg stacks of PE will be lower then 30 throughout a rift. Why I will still likely use PE in a high GR push setting is because it would further amplify MS's strength in high density scenarios. Which is what your team will be fishing for anyways.
When a GG spires map keeps the mob cluster growing the deeper you go, PE is doing phenomenal work moving the progress bar.