In fairness though, I don't know that it's helpful to consider each skill-rune combination as unique. Most runes don't really change the character of the skill enough to warrant that imho. The realistic difference between two otherwise identical builds with a single rune difference where one does +10% damage and the other does +10% movement debuff is pretty small. Is it fair to consider them entirely separate builds in the context you're talking about? Certainly if one is viable, the other is as well simply because there is about a hair's width of difference between them.
I'm not implying every rune results in a new skill worth completely separate considerations. Many are simply different spreads in where the damage goes (Arcane Missile Split vs Charged Blast), but even those are important, subtle differences worth looking at when comparing a number of measures that are equally subtle in difference such as perfect aoe dps vs target limited aoe dps vs multi-directional aoe dps vs hallway aoe dps. I could also add in close vs long range and the amount of time necessary to move. A channeled line aoe such as Disintegrate has runes that greatly affect the values for each of those situations. The rune choice is further impacted by choosing to have something like Temporal Flux or Critical Mass.
I strongly believe Blizzard has done an exceptional job with runes providing that important personal feel to your play, and theorycrafting should dedicate itself to providing information about each of those skills, particularly with their specific synergies, so that users can make an informed decision after considering their preferences. It isn't reasonable to expect there to be optimal builds for every player. For that reason, I believe most, if not all, runed skills need to be examined carefully for when that rune may be appropriate.
Example of something that doesn't meet those situations: Rend Lacerate and Mutilate. Depending on how Mutilate works, it's either 270% vs 350% or 270% vs 210% over a longer period.
Enough people have already bashed the OP in this thread for not doing the calculations correctly, but honestly, did you expect more? He can't even use scientific notation in any reasonable fashion so what are the chances that he would be able to produce the answer to a combinatorics problem correctly?
Ok so I took a common sense approach because the numbers being posted a quite rediculous without some kind of real-world assumptions and restrictions being placed on them.
I have limited my calculations to "sensible" builds. I defined sensible builds as those builds which pick a recommended skill for each skill slot. If we do this, then we ensure that we at least have some generators, some spenders, some defensive, some utility, some ultimates etc. Rather than purely random which means you could end up with builds that make use of 2 mantras, or 2 energy armors, or no monk spirit generators etc. These builds are "not sensible" and are avoided in my calculation.
For the barbarian we have:
(below for each category I am taking [number of recommended skills in category]choose[number you can pick, which is 1] * rune choices = possibilities)
Ok so I took a common sense approach because the numbers being posted a quite rediculous without some kind of real-world assumptions and restrictions being placed on them.
I have limited my calculations to "sensible" builds.
For the barbarian we have:
20,160,000,000 total barbarian combinations, with my given restrictions.
You guys can work out the rest!
Snipped the quote a bit, but thank you for understanding my point sir, you win the thread cookie. There may be wiggle room beyond what would normally be considered sensible, as odd combinations can sometimes provide utility beyond the obvious, but I like the idea you've taken here :D.
Ok so I took a common sense approach because the numbers being posted a quite rediculous without some kind of real-world assumptions and restrictions being placed on them.
I have limited my calculations to "sensible" builds.
For the barbarian we have:
20,160,000,000 total barbarian combinations, with my given restrictions.
You guys can work out the rest!
Snipped the quote a bit, but thank you for understanding my point sir, you win the thread cookie. There may be wiggle room beyond what would normally be considered sensible, as odd combinations can sometimes provide utility beyond the obvious, but I like the idea you've taken here :D.
In fairness though, I don't know that it's helpful to consider each skill-rune combination as unique. Most runes don't really change the character of the skill enough to warrant that imho. The realistic difference between two otherwise identical builds with a single rune difference where one does +10% damage and the other does +10% movement debuff is pretty small. Is it fair to consider them entirely separate builds in the context you're talking about? Certainly if one is viable, the other is as well simply because there is about a hair's width of difference between them.
The rune choices are the whole concept of "builds" in D3. Blizzard's entire plan of having so many choices to experiment with is based on the rune choices.
So I would say each rune choice is extremely relevant in a discussion like this. Most runes are much more unique than you are asserting.
Even if the difference between 2 runes was 10% damage and 10% snare, that is still a choice, a choice that affects how you play the game.
Also, Blizzard has already stated that there is absolutely no reason to leave a skill unruned. Therefore, you really should only count 5 variations per skill, not 6.
This doesn't hold true until you have unlocked all the skills. Sometime the unruned skill willw ork best for the build until maybe the last rune is unlocked.
Also, Blizzard has already stated that there is absolutely no reason to leave a skill unruned. Therefore, you really should only count 5 variations per skill, not 6.
Actually, I thought they said something to the affect that you could* leave it unruned. To be honest, the current rune system has never supported that, as there is always a benefit to runing rather than not. But I could have sworn...
*could, as in the option was viable, not just the obvious meaning.
Quote from "marmelade" »
I really hope blizzard makes a scan after a while. may a weekly scan even. to see how many builds are active and see how many duplicates there are =)
Brilliant idea! That would be very interesting to see. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a list of the number of different builds that have beaten inferno difficulty. Would be cool to see which class has the most diverse builds that can clear it. And of course just the number of different builds at 60 would be cool.
Lets say the number of builds that have at least 3 different skills / passives / runes. As 1 thing differing can hardly be seen as variety.
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is right.
not taking unruned into accounts of course. Otherwise having only 1 skill would be a build too by this logic.
I strongly believe Blizzard has done an exceptional job with runes providing that important personal feel to your play, and theorycrafting should dedicate itself to providing information about each of those skills, particularly with their specific synergies, so that users can make an informed decision after considering their preferences. It isn't reasonable to expect there to be optimal builds for every player. For that reason, I believe most, if not all, runed skills need to be examined carefully for when that rune may be appropriate.
Example of something that doesn't meet those situations: Rend Lacerate and Mutilate. Depending on how Mutilate works, it's either 270% vs 350% or 270% vs 210% over a longer period.
I have limited my calculations to "sensible" builds. I defined sensible builds as those builds which pick a recommended skill for each skill slot. If we do this, then we ensure that we at least have some generators, some spenders, some defensive, some utility, some ultimates etc. Rather than purely random which means you could end up with builds that make use of 2 mantras, or 2 energy armors, or no monk spirit generators etc. These builds are "not sensible" and are avoided in my calculation.
For the barbarian we have:
(below for each category I am taking [number of recommended skills in category]choose[number you can pick, which is 1] * rune choices = possibilities)
Primary : 3choose1 = 3*5 = 15
Secondary : 4choose1 = 4*5 = 20
Defensive : 4choose1 = 4*5 = 20
Tactics : 4choose1 = 4*5 = 20
Might : 4choose1 = 4*5 = 20
Rage : 3choose1 = 4*5 = 15
Total without passives: 36,000,000
Passives: 16 choose 3: 560
20,160,000,000 total barbarian combinations, with my given restrictions.
You guys can work out the rest!
Snipped the quote a bit, but thank you for understanding my point sir, you win the thread cookie. There may be wiggle room beyond what would normally be considered sensible, as odd combinations can sometimes provide utility beyond the obvious, but I like the idea you've taken here :D.
Thank you sir.
The rune choices are the whole concept of "builds" in D3. Blizzard's entire plan of having so many choices to experiment with is based on the rune choices.
So I would say each rune choice is extremely relevant in a discussion like this. Most runes are much more unique than you are asserting.
Even if the difference between 2 runes was 10% damage and 10% snare, that is still a choice, a choice that affects how you play the game.
This doesn't hold true until you have unlocked all the skills. Sometime the unruned skill willw ork best for the build until maybe the last rune is unlocked.
Actually, I thought they said something to the affect that you could* leave it unruned. To be honest, the current rune system has never supported that, as there is always a benefit to runing rather than not. But I could have sworn...
*could, as in the option was viable, not just the obvious meaning.
Brilliant idea! That would be very interesting to see. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a list of the number of different builds that have beaten inferno difficulty. Would be cool to see which class has the most diverse builds that can clear it. And of course just the number of different builds at 60 would be cool.
Lets say the number of builds that have at least 3 different skills / passives / runes. As 1 thing differing can hardly be seen as variety.