Actually Seth, there is a way to make a bet on the forums.
Atrumentis made an official betting thread a while back, it never saw much use though :(.
Might still be active, you should check it out :D.
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Quote from "Sixen" »
"One in every 10 million people can potentially have a headache from this pill." God forbid she is the 0.000000001% of having a headache.
I never said you had to do every single quest, but okay. If the game was designed better, then the quests should be advantageous or fun enough to make you want to do them. Since they obviously weren't made that way, respeccing should be an option to avoid having to do this kind of crap all over again when you don't really want to, or you wouldn't be rushing (skipping huge parts of the game, long series of quests or areas).
If you do every quest essential to drive the main plot line to get to the next quest, and every quest that offers a worthwhile reward, you pretty much just did every quest. Rushing, as you keep talking about as a glitch, is no more then having a high level help you do so faster.
Please stop confusing glitch rushing with rushing. I can see how a level 1 in hell isnt exactly legit, but having a level 70 teleport act 3 for me because I'm too lazy to walk it all, isnt cheating, glitching, or a flaw in the game any way you dice it up, so get over it.
Besides, if rushing is a flaw in game design, how exactly is respeccing going to fix rushing? I'm still gonna rush every character I make with the exception of the first I make after reset when nobodies really capable of rushing.
Want to know why? Because I'm doing exactly what you're doing to everyone with a fair argument. I'm ignoring your good points.
You've given 2 reasons, and I already responded to them both.
1. Its not fair I have to relevel a character I screwed up or some variation there of.
2. Rushing in all its forms is a massive flaw in the game and respeccing will somehow magically fix it.
Response.
1. Permanent character development has always been part of D2. Not all characters should be able to do everything, its what makes your character have a more unique feel. You seem to disagree with the following, but if you screw up your character you should have to deal with it, not have an ezfix option.
Lower population of lowbies after a few weeks into ladder will make it awfully boring to level any new alts as norm and nm will be far less populated. The vast majority of games will be hell chaos and baals, as those are the best to level in. I hope you enjoy any other type of run becoming much less common.
Everyone will pvm as one of the better pvm builds for each class. Example, no way in hell am I going to level as a ghost sin instead of a light traper. Its going to make pvm a lot more boring when theres even less character variation then there is now. Hope you really like hammerdins and summoners. Likewise for pvp, seeing a high level ghost is totally gonna lose its mystique and coolness factor when everyone can just level as a light trapper w/infinity merc and respec when they wanna start pvp'ing.
2. See above. Also
No, my definition of rushing is skipping through large parts of the game (quests and/or areas) using glitches., or things that are not supposed to happen in the game which should be patched, if you really want to know.
I'd agree with glitch rushing fitting this definition. If you can't differentiate the two, glitch rushing allows you to have a level 1 all the way to helll if you want.
Regular rushing, you still have to put the time in to leveling the character to a high enough level to beat ancients in each difficulty. Your merely allowing a high level to get you through some of the slower areas of the game faster so you can level in the more efficient ones. If allowing a higher level to help you out is wrong in any way, then I guess every multiplayer rpg type game I've ever played has the same design flaw.
There you have it, direct answers with some relevance to the game, debunking one answer thats just whining and another thats on a totally related topic and still doesn't even amount to a decent argument. When the anti-respec arguments clearly outweigh the pro-respec arguments, that is why I do not support respecs in this game.
There is nothing "permanent" about your character in D2. You can move your items, delete your character, make a new one and rush it to 85 in one day, get the items back. Free respec in one day.
If they fix rushing (meaning that it MUST take you months to build a character) and implement a cooldown on the respec function, they can make it more restrictive than it used to be. And I am absolutely sure they will make it restrictive.
This thread is the rhetorical equivalent of a round-a-bout. People driving in and out, some staying a while before driving off then back in later, but the landscape never changes.
Go look at the poll. The overwhelming majority view this as a positive change. Blizzard did as well or they wouldn't be implementing it.
I guess you can keep going on and on citing your right 'to discussing the game as much as I want', but really, you've exhausted your opinion about a dozen times over now.
If you do every quest essential to drive the main plot line to get to the next quest, and every quest that offers a worthwhile reward, you pretty much just did every quest. Rushing, as you keep talking about as a glitch, is no more then having a high level help you do so faster.
Not rushing in my definition, no. A glitch is an unintended fault in the game. The game makers obviously did not spend months creating the game so that everyone on Battle.net would skip over 95% of it.
Please stop confusing glitch rushing with rushing.
I am not, I can assure you.
I can see how a level 1 in hell isnt exactly legit, but having a level 70 teleport act 3 for me because I'm too lazy to walk it all, isnt ... a flaw in the game any way you dice it up,
Yes it is. It is a flaw because allowing people to just skip everything is not encouraging people to play the game. It's a flaw.
so get over it.
Don't get sassy with me.
Besides, if rushing is a flaw in game design, how exactly is respeccing going to fix rushing?
I never said it would *fix* rushing. I would never be so stupid as to ascribe an absolute statement to anything. It would lessen the demand for rushing greatly.
I'm still gonna rush every character I make with the exception of the first I make after reset when nobodies really capable of rushing.
Go ahead, no one is stopping you and either is respeccing. I, in fact, told you on numerous occasions that respeccing is not going to force you in to not rushing- the option is still there until it is fixed.
You've given 2 reasons,
Incorrect.
1. Its not fair I have to relevel a character I screwed up or some variation there of.
Way to oversimplify it and cleverly place negative connotations on it. My argument was that is is unfair to expect all players to have the same exact foreknowledge and thus expect even the thousands of new players to conform to this predisposition of assumed knowledge base. It is not logical or feasible from a game development standpoint to assume that at all. The game offers no help what-so-ever in showing you the features of the game, advice on building your first build, or anything else that could be remotely considered user-friendly.
It is a flaw, therefor, to avoid trying to help people to understand the game and should be compensated for.
2. Rushing in all its forms is a massive flaw in the game and respeccing will somehow magically fix it.
Once again, you are completely ignoring what I said, glossing over my argument and placing childish antics in it. I never, ever said respeccing would "magically" fix the rushing flaw. I said that it would lessen the need for it greatly.
My other two arguments, the only ones I can remember, are:
So, instead it's okay for the same system to encourage you to just make characters over and over again, filling up account after account with characters you'll probably never use again? Games don't exist to punish people, government does that for us. Games are there to be fun. Forcing a player to have to go through the whole entire game because of a mess-up or because they want a new build even though they spent countless hours earning each level in the game is ludicrous.
I could understand it in, say, a true RPG where choices are what make the game fun. Diablo II, however, is an ARPG, which I think is entirely different. Forcing you to redo countless hours of play through the same exact areas is not cohesive with the play theme that the developers of both Diablo II and Diablo III have constantly stated as a fast-paced game. Especially if you are only doing it because of mistakes in your build, in which case you will be playing with the same character with a very similar build and very similar gear and stats through the same areas in all three difficulties.
1. Permanent character development has always been part of D2.
There is nothing permanent about characters in Diablo II. People make new ones by the buttload every hour.
Not all characters should be able to do everything
That was never said by me or assumed by me.
, its what makes your character have a more unique feel.
Characters in Diablo II will never be unique besides their name. Unique character customization was never a part of Diablo II. Elite gear will always exist in the game (another game flaw), and so the vast majority of characters will always look the same and because of immunities and synergies the only functionally acceptable builds will always be inherently the same (another two game flaws).
but if you screw up your character you should have to deal with it,
No, you shouldn't. That makes no sense. See my arguments both in this post and all over the thread as well as the other thirty people that disagree with you.
not have an ezfix option.
It would not ideally be an easy thing to do. Bashiok, for all he's worth, I suppose, already noted that the respeccing option would be hard to do. I have never said that I would like the option to just be some button you click and everything is dandy.
Lower population of lowbies after a few weeks into ladder will make it awfully boring to level any new alts as norm and nm will be far less populated.
Exactly. And so if you could respec a large amount of skill points, you would not have to remake a character and re-level as heavily, instead of exploiting glitches and game flaws.
The vast majority of games will be hell chaos and baals, as those are the best to level in.
I hope you enjoy any other type of run becoming much less common.
This is exactly my point. This "runs" aren't even entertaining, they're a choir. You sit in a room or follow a Hammderin or some other abused character around, most likely with tons of duped runes and gear, usually a bot, and leech experience points. There's hardly ever even any talking. You just go from "Baal 01" to "Baal 02". Wow, that really brings the Diablo community together! That is really a challenge!
Adding the respeccing option would lessen the need for this and allow players to focus more of their time doing other things which I feel are more multiplayer-oriented, like dueling.
Everyone will pvm as one of the better pvm builds for each class. Example, no way in hell am I going to level as a ghost sin instead of a light traper.
I'm glad to see you are stating my previous argument that Diablo II characters are not unique.
Its going to make pvm a lot more boring when theres even less character variation then there is now.
Why the hell would there be any less character variation? All it is is an option to relocate a preset number of skill points. It's not like it's something like immunities or synergies which lock skills in to rigid builds. In fact, it would not affect builds at all.
Hope you really like hammerdins and summoners.
What the heck does that have to do with anything?
Likewise for pvp, seeing a high level ghost is totally gonna lose its mystique and coolness factor when everyone can just level as a light trapper w/infinity merc and respec when they wanna start pvp'ing.
First off, why shouldn't they be able to? If they can't, they'll just exploit more game flaws and glitches to come about the same effect. When you get rushed, first off, you're trying to get through the game as fast as possible. If you could respec, you would essentially be doing the ultimate rush. It's a win-win situation, I see no reason why you should even be arguing it.
Regular rushing, you still have to put the time in to leveling the character to a high enough level to beat ancients in each difficulty.
So, you would agree that it is a good thing that restriction was added by the legacy team in patch 1.10? If so, you would also have to agree that they do not want to have everyone just skipping through the game or they wouldn't have implemented it.
Your merely allowing a high level to get you through some of the slower areas of the game faster
Not doing any of the work, got it.
so you can level in the more efficient ones.
So you can milk areas for experience following bots or other cloned characters once again doing all the work with little-to-no player-to-player interaction and once again taking advantage of a game flaw- that you weren't intended to just level and level in these areas, you were intended to get to an adequate level before hand on the way there through the various fields and dungeons.
If allowing a higher level to help you out is wrong in any way,
Never said that.
When the anti-respec arguments clearly outweigh the pro-respec arguments
They obviously don't, since you're in a 16.28% minority and you and others have been repeatedly rebutted by other members and me in this thread.
There is nothing "permanent" about your character in D2. You can move your items, delete your character, make a new one and rush it to 85 in one day, get the items back. Free respec in one day.
There is permanance now. Once you assign stats or skills its permanent to that character. If you delete and make a new one its not the same character anymore. However you seem to grasp the concept of how easy it is to correct mistakes, do you really want it to be made even easier? btw when I mentioned previously how fast you could level people still cried about it being tedious and unfair to have to use the delete/remake method to fix a mistake, yet you refer to it as free respec in a day lol.
If they fix rushing (meaning that it MUST take you months to build a character) and implement a cooldown on the respec function, they can make it more restrictive than it used to be. And I am absolutely sure they will make it restrictive.
Try and argue with that.
Ok.
I'm just going on the assumption they can't ever really make multiplayer slower then single player, and I could walk a character up to hell baal in a few days, so I don't see how it'd ever take months to build a character for anyone with a clue. You say "fix rushing," how do you suggest fixing someone having a friend help them out to do something faster? Like I mentioned before, even if you had to complete every quest in the game, it just means a rush would take 20 minutes instead of 10, big deal.
Otherwise, I can't really tell if you think making the game more restrictive is a good or bad thing. I always thought it was a good thing to not be restrictive. I love how in this game, knowing what your doing can allow you to accomplish more in an hour then some clueless guy can accomplish in 5. If you make game progession more restrictive its just making it so game knowledge, efficiency, and actually bothering to make a few bnet friends means a lot less, and the game will become more of a mindless grindfest. Top it off with respecs making it so you can't even make any mistakes, and it just doesn't seem like that would be evolving the game into something more appealing.
Not rushing in my definition, no. A glitch is an unintended fault in the game. The game makers obviously did not spend months creating the game so that everyone on Battle.net would skip over 95% of it.
Got it, so you should have to kill 95% of the monsters in each area to proceed to the next, otherwise, your skipping more then your allocated 5% allowance and exploiting a flaw.
Yes it is. It is a flaw because allowing people to just skip everything is not encouraging people to play the game. It's a flaw.
Your right, I'll inform my friends they are no longer aloud to help me in certain areas of the game because its abusing a flaw in the design of the game.
Way to oversimplify it and cleverly place negative connotations on it. My argument was that is is unfair to expect all players to have the same exact foreknowledge and thus expect even the thousands of new players to conform to this predisposition of assumed knowledge base. It is not logical or feasible from a game development standpoint to assume that at all. The game offers no help what-so-ever in showing you the features of the game, advice on building your first build, or anything else that could be remotely considered user-friendly.
It is a flaw, therefor, to avoid trying to help people to understand the game and should be compensated for.
So, we should have to dumb down the game to make it more newbie friendly, rather then expect newbs to put a little effort into learning the game. Good idea.
My other two arguments, the only ones I can remember, are:
Let me paraphrase:
1. Its not fair I have to relevel a character I screwed up or some variation there of.
2. Its not fair I have to relevel a character I screwed up or some variation there of.
There is nothing permanent about characters in Diablo II. People make new ones by the buttload every hour.
Uh...they make new characters because the previous are all permanantly what they made them to be. If I make a sorc, spend all my stat and skill points, I can't ever change it, how is that not permanant? If I make a new sorc, the previous is still there. If I erase it, the sorc is permanantly gone.
Characters in Diablo II will never be unique besides their name. Unique character customization was never a part of Diablo II. Elite gear will always exist in the game (another game flaw), and so the vast majority of characters will always look the same and because of immunities and synergies the only functionally acceptable builds will always be inherently the same (another two game flaws).
Wow thats digging pretty deep, lack of character skins means your character has no uniqueness to it lol.
Otherwise, I half agree, half disagree. Sure, theres only so many possible ways to distribute your stat and skill points, and some ways just arent good, and theres only so many pieces of gear, some of which are more desireable then others, so naturally there are always going to be similar characters. Even still the only characters with exactly the same score screen you'll ever come across are level 99's on non ladder wearing identle sets of perfect modded gear and carrying identicle inventories of perfect torches, perfect annies, and perfect charms.
However, I disagree with functionally acceptable builds always inherently being the same. Example, WWsin. Some people use chaos/fury, some use chaos/fools claw, some even use chaos/bartucs. Some only use 1 point into lightning sentry/wof for locking people, some dump more points into traps so they can actually do meaningful damage, some max traps and prefer to do trap damage over ww damage. Some use dragon flight, some dont. Some wear nigma, some wear fort, some wear bramble. Regardless, the point is I could go on and on listing ways people tweak WWsins, and thats just one build for one class. It comes down to what you can afford for gear, and your personal playstyle, and your ability to best tailor your character to those two factors.
But seriously now, how is elite gear a game flaw? Theres always going to be "best" gear, if variations in gear quality is a flaw why not just play a shooter? I'm starting to even wonder why you bother with this game if it has so many deep rooted design flaws lol.
Why the hell would there be any less character variation? All it is is an option to relocate a preset number of skill points. It's not like it's something like immunities or synergies which lock skills in to rigid builds. In fact, it would not affect builds at all.
Wow, and you said I am ignoring all your good points. You quoted from me a few lines above where you said this...
Everyone will pvm as one of the better pvm builds for each class. Example, no way in hell am I going to level as a ghost sin instead of a light traper.
And shortly when I make a witty comment about hammerdins and summoners, because they are two of the dominant pvm builds for paladins and necros you come back with...
What the heck does that have to do with anything?
I don't know how to break it down any further for you.
Never said that.
Then why do you keep complaining about how flawed allowing a higher level character to help speed you through the game is? If its so flawed as you say, then there is something wrong with it.
Ok, so your admitting respecs will make hell baal and chaos runs more common...
Exactly. And so if you could respec a large amount of skill points, you would not have to remake a character and re-level as heavily, instead of exploiting glitches and game flaws.
The vast majority of games will be hell chaos and baals, as those are the best to level in.
Then one line later...
This is exactly my point. This "runs" aren't even entertaining, they're a choir. You sit in a room or follow a Hammderin or some other abused character around, most likely with tons of duped runes and gear, usually a bot, and leech experience points. There's hardly ever even any talking. You just go from "Baal 01" to "Baal 02". Wow, that really brings the Diablo community together! That is really a challenge!
Adding the respeccing option would lessen the need for this and allow players to focus more of their time doing other things which I feel are more multiplayer-oriented, like dueling.
Your talking about how awful they are. Fixing bots would do a lot more to make the game enjoyable then respecs, because guess what, your going to be a worthless dueler with crappy gear, and the only way to get decent gear is to do some runs. Even if your an epic trader, your gonna have to do some runs on occasion to get things to trade off.
So you can milk areas for experience following bots or other cloned characters once again doing all the work with little-to-no player-to-player interaction and once again taking advantage of a game flaw- that you weren't intended to just level and level in these areas, you were intended to get to an adequate level before hand on the way there through the various fields and dungeons.
*palm to face* I thought we already covered this. Some areas are going to be more efficient then others simply because they are more densely packed with monsters or have more unique monsters. I guess I'll just revert down to one of your tactics since I'm getting tired of your obvious trolling. If you don't like bots don't use one.(
They obviously don't, since you're in a 16.28% minority and you and others have been repeatedly rebutted by other members and me in this thread.
People can still support something for stupid reasons. Guess I'll just make sure to bump this thread and say I told ya so 6 months after the patch when bnet is deader then ever.
There is nothing "permanent" about your character in D2. You can move your items, delete your character, make a new one and rush it to 85 in one day, get the items back. Free respec in one day.
If they fix rushing (meaning that it MUST take you months to build a character) and implement a cooldown on the respec function, they can make it more restrictive than it used to be. And I am absolutely sure they will make it restrictive.
Try and argue with that.
They would have to change the game A LOT if it would take months to build a character. In Classic 1.09 I've made a 78 level barb in 1 day without any WP given to me and all quests completed (but hell diablo). I just ran through all the areas and quests. In 1.09 and Classic in general your exp gain is lower so 78 is quite fast imo, so there would have to be a lot of changes to exp gain and stuff.
Imo they could prevent rushing since playing the game through normally is really fast even without it.. Nowadays I almost always do all quests and it doesn't take long time.. more unpatient people could just get wp's from someone and go through the game even a bit faster.
The worst part is normal ofc.. nm and hell is just a run through with your powerful skills.
Got it, so you should have to kill 95% of the monsters in each area to proceed to the next, otherwise, your skipping more then your allocated 5% allowance and exploiting a flaw.
Yes, if you want to take it to extremes, since that's what you seem locked in to arguing in.
Your right, I'll inform my friends they are no longer aloud to help me in certain areas of the game because its abusing a flaw in the design of the game.
There is a huge difference between helping you through an area and killing everything for you so that you get quests done with no work invested.
So, we should have to dumb down the game
There would not be any "dumbing down" of the game. There would be an option to fix prior mistakes should they arise, and the option would be ideally hard to obtain.
to make it more newbie friendly,
To make it user friendly, for both the older player and the newer player. But you've so far ignored both arguments.
rather then expect newbs to put a little effort into learning the game.
That was never suggested. They will obviously have to put effort in the game to get anywhere in the game, otherwise there would be no progress.
Good idea.
Thank you.
Let me paraphrase:
1. Its not fair I have to relevel a character I screwed up or some variation there of.
2. Its not fair I have to relevel a character I screwed up or some variation there of.
You are very bad at paraphrasing. There's hardly any point in debating with you because you are so set on ignorance.
If I make a sorc, spend all my stat and skill points, I can't ever change it, how is that not permanant?
Because you can just go and make another and get another rush to skip as much of the content as possible again and again (exploit game flaws).
If I make a new sorc, the previous is still there. If I erase it, the sorc is permanantly gone.
What is the point of having "permanent" characters if you can just go and make them by the bucket load as much as you please? Yes, technically the data of the character, itself, is permanent, but you can still make as many as you'd like, which is the same as remaking the same character over and over. So they're not permanent in practice.
Wow thats digging pretty deep, lack of character skins means your character has no uniqueness to it lol.
No, I said nothing about character skins. I said that because of flaws in the game already (including, but not limited to, dual-immunities, synergies, over-powered runewords and uniques, and so on) essentially every character wears the same stuff, or strives to wear the same stuff, on Battle.net and the vast majority of players utilize the same exact builds because the game is not designed to accommodate variation
Otherwise, I half agree, half disagree. Sure, theres only so many possible ways to distribute your stat and skill points, and some ways just arent good, and theres only so many pieces of gear, some of which are more desireable then others, so naturally there are always going to be similar characters.
I can go in to channels in Diablo II and pick out tons of people with the same gear as others of their class just by looking at them. Just by sitting in a channel you can evidence that people are asking purely about cookie-cutter builds. They're all the same.
Even still the only characters with exactly the same score screen you'll ever come across are level 99's on non ladder wearing identle sets of perfect modded gear and carrying identicle inventories of perfect torches, perfect annies, and perfect charms.
Nonesense, they're all over ladder right now.
However, I disagree with functionally acceptable builds always inherently being the same. Example, WWsin. Some people use chaos/fury, some use chaos/fools claw, some even use chaos/bartucs. Some only use 1 point into lightning sentry/wof for locking people, some dump more points into traps so they can actually do meaningful damage, some max traps and prefer to do trap damage over ww damage. Some use dragon flight, some dont. Some wear nigma, some wear fort, some wear bramble. Regardless, the point is I could go on and on listing ways people tweak WWsins, and thats just one build for one class. It comes down to what you can afford for gear, and your personal playstyle, and your ability to best tailor your character to those two factors.
And what do the vast majority use? The commonly-accepted items. And what do they strive for? The most powerful items for their build, which are the same for every character using the same build.
But seriously now, how is elite gear a game flaw?
Because there is almost no variation with gear.
I'm starting to even wonder why you bother with this game if it has so many deep rooted design flaws lol.
There are only a few I consider issues, and once they are gone all the other side-effects would clear up- dual-immunes and synergies. Those are my biggest issues.
Wow, and you said I am ignoring all your good points. You quoted from me a few lines above where you said this...
And shortly when I make a witty comment about hammerdins and summoners, because they are two of the dominant pvm builds for paladins and necros you come back with...
I don't know how to break it down any further for you.
Because they weren't even relevant to the argument.
Then why do you keep complaining about how flawed allowing a higher level character to help speed you through the game is?
It's annoying how many times I have to repeat this for you: I have no problem with a higher-leveled character helping out a weaker one. What I have an issue with is hundreds of games all being created for the soul purpose of a cookie-cutter build doing all the work for the weaker character to get all the quests done. That is not playing the game in any sense, that is getting someone to play it for you.
If its so flawed as you say, then there is something wrong with it.
Funny how you continue to just attack me on a personal level.
Ok, so your admitting respecs will make hell baal and chaos runs more common...
How the heck did you even get that out of it? I said that if you are allowed to respec, you will not need to re-level, so all of these "runs" will not be in such high demand. That is not contradictory at all.
*palm to face* I thought we already covered this. Some areas are going to be more efficient then others simply because they are more densely packed with monsters or have more unique monsters.
I'm talking about hundreds of games all going at once in which a full game of players simply sits in a room and leeches experience, not even talking to each other, not even strategizing. If they were doing both of those things, if there was a challenge and they were all pitching in and cooperating instead of just having some random runner kill monsters for them while they sit there like dumb sheep for game after game, then I would feel differently about it.
I guess I'll just revert down to one of your tactics since I'm getting tired of your obvious trolling.
I'm not the one throwing personal attacks all over the place.
If you don't like bots don't use one.(
I don't, so we're square. The difference here is that bots are against the EULA and respecs would not be since they would be implemented in a patch as an option integrated in to the game.
People can still support something for stupid reasons.
I agree.
Guess I'll just make sure to bump this thread and say I told ya so 6 months after the patch when bnet is deader then ever.
Sure, and I'll make sure to hold up on my part in this and do the same thing when it proves that it is not "deader" and is, in fact, thriving as it always has been.
Yes, if you want to take it to extremes, since that's what you seem locked in to arguing in.
There is a huge difference between helping you through an area and killing everything for you so that you get quests done with no work invested.
Well I don't see where your coming from when you say having a higher level friend help me out is a flaw in the game, but that I shouldnt have to kill a majority of monsters in an area to proceed. What should I have to walk from entrance to exit of each area on my own only killing whats on my way, because clearing the area would be extreme, and having help to speed past it would be extreme?
That was never suggested.
Way to oversimplify it and cleverly place negative connotations on it. My argument was that is is unfair to expect all players to have the same exact foreknowledge and thus expect even the thousands of new players to conform to this predisposition of assumed knowledge base. It is not logical or feasible from a game development standpoint to assume that at all. The game offers no help what-so-ever in showing you the features of the game, advice on building your first build, or anything else that could be remotely considered user-friendly.
It is a flaw, therefor, to avoid trying to help people to understand the game and should be compensated for.
It is unfair to expect newer players to be as knowledgable of the game as someone with years of experience, therefore we should dumb the game down to make it easier for them. Its a point and click game, with a character menu, a skills tree menu, and an inventory menu. It comes with an instruction manual. Theres tons of websites, some of which are even afilliated with blizzard, designed to share knowledge of the game. Yeah your not talking about newbies, because theres a lot of veteran players on here that are still having a hard time learning features of the game, and that are working on their first build still.
Because you can just go and make another
Clearly there is character permanance if I must do this.
What is the point of having "permanent" characters if you can just go and make them by the bucket load as much as you please? Yes, technically the data of the character, itself, is permanent, but you can still make as many as you'd like, which is the same as remaking the same character over and over.
Oh ok, I'm going to keep erasing characters to make the same exact thing over and over without making any tweaks to it. Besides, if I have a red corvette, someone steals it and I collect insurance money and buy a new red corvette, I don't still have the same red corvette do I?
No, I said nothing about character skins
the vast majority of characters will always look the same
Lies.
And what do the vast majority use? The commonly-accepted items. And what do they strive for? The most powerful items for their build, which are the same for every character using the same build.
I can go in to channels in Diablo II and pick out tons of people with the same gear as others of their class just by looking at them. Just by sitting in a channel you can evidence that people are asking purely about cookie-cutter builds. They're all the same.
I just wrote a paragraph about similar builds using different gear set ups. If your smart and into dueling, your not even going to have 1 gear set up, your going to have swaps in stash, which would be why I'm against any sort of stash expansion/shared stashes if you'd like to know. Your pretty slick if you can tell the difference between an assassin with a bramble, a nigma, a fort, or one with a cracked version of the same armor as the others while sitting in a channel, even in game the only one you'd be able to pick out without playing with them for a bit would be the bramble, thanks to the aura.
Even hammerdins, probably the most numerous build have many gear variations. Some wear coas, some wear shakos, some wear circlets. Some swear by hotos, others wizardspikes. You see a lot using hoz's, but a lot also use spirit shields. Depending on their gear set up some use soj's, others use rare fcr rings. Every build has variations, which, like I said earlier, depend upon your budget and your personal playstyle or taste. What's the best weapon for a charger?
Because they weren't even relevant to the argument.
Yes it does. I must have mentioned 30 times now that allowing people to respec will encourage everyone to level as one of the better pvm builds for their class. So by asking you if you like hammerdins and summoners, its because your going to see a ton of them. Do you understand?
Because there is almost no variation with gear.
*palm to face* Sure not everyone is going to use something different, but there is quite a bit of variation from build to build, and even different tweaks of the same build. Are you still trying to figure out why some wind druids use spirit monarchs and others use stormshields, or you just thought all windy's were the same becuase they looked the same? Even back in the day when randoms were often your best gear choices, there were still ideal mods on randoms that were more commonly sought after then others.
I have no problem with a higher-leveled character helping out a weaker one. What I have an issue with is hundreds of games all being created for the soul purpose of a cookie-cutter build doing all the work for the weaker character to get all the quests done. That is not playing the game in any sense, that is getting someone to play it for you.
Ever try to level an auradin, you know, one of the real ones that your main aura is conviction and most of your damage comes froms auras off gears? Good luck getting anything done solo. Ever try to level a ghost? Have fun. You'd probably run out of money to fix your chaos claw, if you even could level enough to get to wear it. Some builds suck at pvm, its a multiplayer game, you get help to do it as quickly as possible.
I know, I know, I'm about to put words in your mouth again so I'll phrase it as a question. What do you want every character to be equal dps and have an equal amount of single immune monsters so pvm is fair? My old fire sorc blew nuts at pvm in hell, couldnt even solo a baal or chaos run with godly gear, but I could join a pub duel with her and kill everyone in it no problem. I never had a problem with that. Same for my bva, sucked pretty bad at pvm, was slow and costed a lot to keep gear repaired, but was a nasty dueler. So yeah, if I wanted to level one of these, I'd obviously go leech someone, but if I felt like hosting the runs I'd use one of my more capable pvm characters.
How the heck did you even get that out of it? I said that if you are allowed to respec, you will not need to re-level, so all of these "runs" will not be in such high demand. That is not contradictory at all.
The vast majority of games will be hell chaos and baals, as those are the best to level in.
Doot dee doo.
Funny how you continue to just attack me on a personal level.
It wasn't attacking you on a personal level. You keep pointing out flaws in the game. A flaw is something not right with something. How exactly is the statement "If its so flawed as you say, then there is something wrong with it" attacking you? You said its flawed, if it has flaws, there are things wrong with it...
I'm not the one throwing personal attacks all over the place.
If you didnt contradict yourself so much and keep denying you said things when I can scroll back and quote them I wouldn't assume you were trolling.
I don't, so we're square. The difference here is that bots are against the EULA and respecs would not be since they would be implemented in a patch as an option integrated in to the game.
Agreed, but it doesn't change the fact that bots have a huge negative impact on the game for anyone not using one, as will respecs.
I'm talking about hundreds of games all going at once in which a full game of players simply sits in a room and leeches experience, not even talking to each other, not even strategizing. If they were doing both of those things, if there was a challenge and they were all pitching in and cooperating instead of just having some random runner kill monsters for them while they sit there like dumb sheep for game after game, then I would feel differently about it.
Fixing bots would solve some of this, however, like I mentioned above, some builds just suck at pvm. They arent useless characters, its just why bother even pretending to do anything when your in a baal run where 3 hdins, a trapper, and a blizz sorc kill everything within 5 seconds of each spawn and your on a bvc and dont feel like damaging your weapons.
I'm glad this game doesn't have the same features a lot of other games have, like in guild wars, when an 8 man group has to follow the basic set up of 2 healers, 2 tanks, and some nukers/status/hex spammers to do anything. If your two heales leave your screwed, if your tanks leave, your screwed. At least in D2 every character has potential to be a pvm or pvp power house depending how you build them, your not at the constant mercy of finding people of complementing classes to play with. However if you do, it can speed things up a lot and make things much easier. Hate dual immunes? Find a friend that plays a pally with conviction or necro that has lower res, or try a bowzon with an amp damage spammer.
Sure, and I'll make sure to hold up on my part in this and do the same thing when it proves that it is not "deader" and is, in fact, thriving as it always has been.
I wouldn't exactly call it thriving compared to what it used to be like unless you count bots.
Yes it does. I must have mentioned 30 times now that allowing people to respec will encourage everyone to level as one of the better pvm builds for their class. So by asking you if you like hammerdins and summoners, its because your going to see a ton of them. Do you understand?
Ever try to level an auradin, you know, one of the real ones that your main aura is conviction and most of your damage comes froms auras off gears? Good luck getting anything done solo. Ever try to level a ghost? Have fun. You'd probably run out of money to fix your chaos claw, if you even could level enough to get to wear it. Some builds suck at pvm, its a multiplayer game, you get help to do it as quickly as possible.
You have conflicting arguments here. The second paragraph is a pointed and powerful argument FOR respecing. Leveling some builds absolutely sucks, all experienced players know this. Adding respecs enables people to more easily play the game the way it was meant to be played, without relying on grushes or power leveling to make the character they want.
Adding respecs without fixing grush, uber leveling and bots is perhaps not the best idea as good players will find a way to exploit it with whatever class/spec makes it into 1.13 as overpowered. However, if they do manage to curtail bots and stop grushing, respecing would make playing the game through a lot more fun as you wouldn't have to suffer through being useless until your skills & gear become available by level.
You have conflicting arguments here. The second paragraph is a pointed and powerful argument FOR respecing. Leveling some builds absolutely sucks, all experienced players know this. Adding respecs enables people to more easily play the game the way it was meant to be played, without relying on grushes or power leveling to make the character they want.
Nah, its a multiplayer game, make friends and get help. You don't have to grush and power level to build harder to level builds, you can just find some friends doing a playthrough and follow along. Some builds have more of a coolness factor to them since they are harder to make. Most of such builds are basically pvp builds anyhow, so if you make them uber at pvp and uber at pvm, then what becomes the use of builds that are more pvm oriented?
Adding respecs without fixing grush, uber leveling and bots is perhaps not the best idea as good players will find a way to exploit it with whatever class/spec makes it into 1.13 as overpowered. However, if they do manage to curtail bots and stop grushing, respecing would make playing the game through a lot more fun as you wouldn't have to suffer through being useless until your skills & gear become available by level.
Grushing would be an easy fix if they wanted to. I dont have very much faith in blizzard to fix the botting though, seems to me like each ladders just been more hacked then the previous. Like some other dude already mentioned, and its not going to be a big suprise when it happens, people will just bot level 99 on a pvm build and respec to something more pvp oriented that couldnt handle functioning as a bot. Way to implement a change that rewards botting even more blizzard, I applaud you.
Back to the thing with some characters sucking at pvm and why I like it, how many level 99 auradins did you see last ladder vs level 99 hammerdins? If you were to actually level an auardin to 99 it'd be cool as hell, since you'd probably be the only one to do it on ladder, but after respeccing it wont mean anything. It'll just mean you fully botted a hammerdin, respecced, and leveled up another character to run as your hdin bot. Fixing bots and duping would be infinitely more beneficial to the game then respecs. Bet you won't see either fixed.
Nah, its a multiplayer game, make friends and get help. You don't have to grush and power level to build harder to level builds, you can just find some friends doing a playthrough and follow along. Some builds have more of a coolness factor to them since they are harder to make. Most of such builds are basically pvp builds anyhow, so if you make them uber at pvp and uber at pvm, then what becomes the use of builds that are more pvm oriented?
If i'm playing through the game with some friends, I don't want to follow them and watch them kill everything while I sit and uselessly white attack everything because I'm playing a wind druid before level 24. That is a separate issue, that some builds are utterly useless before lvl 24/30 but it ties into respecs because the build issue is unlikely to be fixed, and is much easier to bypass by adding respecs.
Grushing would be an easy fix if they wanted to. I dont have very much faith in blizzard to fix the botting though, seems to me like each ladders just been more hacked then the previous. Like some other dude already mentioned, and its not going to be a big suprise when it happens, people will just bot level 99 on a pvm build and respec to something more pvp oriented that couldnt handle functioning as a bot. Way to implement a change that rewards botting even more blizzard, I applaud you.
Back to the thing with some characters sucking at pvm and why I like it, how many level 99 auradins did you see last ladder vs level 99 hammerdins? If you were to actually level an auardin to 99 it'd be cool as hell, since you'd probably be the only one to do it on ladder, but after respeccing it wont mean anything. It'll just mean you fully botted a hammerdin, respecced, and leveled up another character to run as your hdin bot. Fixing bots and duping would be infinitely more beneficial to the game then respecs. Bet you won't see either fixed.
I doubt they would put the effort into a patch if they didn't make some effort with it to lower the prevalancy of bots and dupes. How effective they'll be is yet to be seen, and you're right that it probably won't work well or for long. But to say that respecs will encourage more botting? If you're going to set up a bot, you're going to do it whether respecs are in the game or not. Respecs may lower the number of bots running for all we know, because people only have to level 1 of each class instead of 2 or more.
Also, there is nothing stopping people from botting non-hdin characters to 99 right now. You simply need to have the bot follow another bot doing baal runs. It may take longer, but it is definately doable. It pretty much makes any character over 95 suspect of botting, because who in their right mind is going to put that much manual time into a game this old? Some may, but a great many of them probably are botted. Also, all of our chacters are tainted by bots and dupes, since almost everyone follows botted baal runs and the odds are overwhelmingly in favor of every HR you trade for is a dupe.
Respecs - if done right - will keep me from leveling 2-3 copies of some classes each season to test different builds and playstyles. I welcome them. If people bot a cold sorc up to 99 then switch it to fire, it has almost no impact. They could have done nearly the exact same thing today, only following another bot instead of killing everything themselves.
Respecs are here now in D2 so that the transition of it's implementation in D3 runs smoothly and ease out the possible qualms the "community" might have about it...
Consider it a test platform for what's to come.
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lol it can still easily be a ranger since who said you cant shoot arrows at melee distance xD
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The Barbarian is from Arreat, a very cold snowy mountain top, but they are much tougher than normal humans, so they don't need warmth.
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Where are Barbarians originally from? Sumeria, or more specifically Mesopotamia, AKA Europe. Think the Alps and the Pyrenees
Respecs are here now in D2 so that the transition of it's implementation in D3 runs smoothly and ease out the possible qualms the "community" might have about it...
Consider it a test platform for what's to come.
No.
Don't bring that up AGAIN.
I'm aware not everyone wants to read through the whole topic... but damnit.
Respeccing is getting to reallocate your skill points.
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Atrumentis made an official betting thread a while back, it never saw much use though :(.
Might still be active, you should check it out :D.
Oh ok. That would be aweomse.
If you do every quest essential to drive the main plot line to get to the next quest, and every quest that offers a worthwhile reward, you pretty much just did every quest. Rushing, as you keep talking about as a glitch, is no more then having a high level help you do so faster.
Please stop confusing glitch rushing with rushing. I can see how a level 1 in hell isnt exactly legit, but having a level 70 teleport act 3 for me because I'm too lazy to walk it all, isnt cheating, glitching, or a flaw in the game any way you dice it up, so get over it.
Besides, if rushing is a flaw in game design, how exactly is respeccing going to fix rushing? I'm still gonna rush every character I make with the exception of the first I make after reset when nobodies really capable of rushing.
You've given 2 reasons, and I already responded to them both.
1. Its not fair I have to relevel a character I screwed up or some variation there of.
2. Rushing in all its forms is a massive flaw in the game and respeccing will somehow magically fix it.
Response.
1. Permanent character development has always been part of D2. Not all characters should be able to do everything, its what makes your character have a more unique feel. You seem to disagree with the following, but if you screw up your character you should have to deal with it, not have an ezfix option.
Lower population of lowbies after a few weeks into ladder will make it awfully boring to level any new alts as norm and nm will be far less populated. The vast majority of games will be hell chaos and baals, as those are the best to level in. I hope you enjoy any other type of run becoming much less common.
Everyone will pvm as one of the better pvm builds for each class. Example, no way in hell am I going to level as a ghost sin instead of a light traper. Its going to make pvm a lot more boring when theres even less character variation then there is now. Hope you really like hammerdins and summoners. Likewise for pvp, seeing a high level ghost is totally gonna lose its mystique and coolness factor when everyone can just level as a light trapper w/infinity merc and respec when they wanna start pvp'ing.
2. See above. Also
I'd agree with glitch rushing fitting this definition. If you can't differentiate the two, glitch rushing allows you to have a level 1 all the way to helll if you want.
Regular rushing, you still have to put the time in to leveling the character to a high enough level to beat ancients in each difficulty. Your merely allowing a high level to get you through some of the slower areas of the game faster so you can level in the more efficient ones. If allowing a higher level to help you out is wrong in any way, then I guess every multiplayer rpg type game I've ever played has the same design flaw.
There you have it, direct answers with some relevance to the game, debunking one answer thats just whining and another thats on a totally related topic and still doesn't even amount to a decent argument. When the anti-respec arguments clearly outweigh the pro-respec arguments, that is why I do not support respecs in this game.
If they fix rushing (meaning that it MUST take you months to build a character) and implement a cooldown on the respec function, they can make it more restrictive than it used to be. And I am absolutely sure they will make it restrictive.
Try and argue with that.
Go look at the poll. The overwhelming majority view this as a positive change. Blizzard did as well or they wouldn't be implementing it.
I guess you can keep going on and on citing your right 'to discussing the game as much as I want', but really, you've exhausted your opinion about a dozen times over now.
Not rushing in my definition, no. A glitch is an unintended fault in the game. The game makers obviously did not spend months creating the game so that everyone on Battle.net would skip over 95% of it.
I am not, I can assure you.
Yes it is. It is a flaw because allowing people to just skip everything is not encouraging people to play the game. It's a flaw.
Don't get sassy with me.
I never said it would *fix* rushing. I would never be so stupid as to ascribe an absolute statement to anything. It would lessen the demand for rushing greatly.
Go ahead, no one is stopping you and either is respeccing. I, in fact, told you on numerous occasions that respeccing is not going to force you in to not rushing- the option is still there until it is fixed.
Incorrect.
Way to oversimplify it and cleverly place negative connotations on it. My argument was that is is unfair to expect all players to have the same exact foreknowledge and thus expect even the thousands of new players to conform to this predisposition of assumed knowledge base. It is not logical or feasible from a game development standpoint to assume that at all. The game offers no help what-so-ever in showing you the features of the game, advice on building your first build, or anything else that could be remotely considered user-friendly.
It is a flaw, therefor, to avoid trying to help people to understand the game and should be compensated for.
Once again, you are completely ignoring what I said, glossing over my argument and placing childish antics in it. I never, ever said respeccing would "magically" fix the rushing flaw. I said that it would lessen the need for it greatly.
My other two arguments, the only ones I can remember, are:
There is nothing permanent about characters in Diablo II. People make new ones by the buttload every hour.
That was never said by me or assumed by me.
Characters in Diablo II will never be unique besides their name. Unique character customization was never a part of Diablo II. Elite gear will always exist in the game (another game flaw), and so the vast majority of characters will always look the same and because of immunities and synergies the only functionally acceptable builds will always be inherently the same (another two game flaws).
No, you shouldn't. That makes no sense. See my arguments both in this post and all over the thread as well as the other thirty people that disagree with you.
It would not ideally be an easy thing to do. Bashiok, for all he's worth, I suppose, already noted that the respeccing option would be hard to do. I have never said that I would like the option to just be some button you click and everything is dandy.
Exactly. And so if you could respec a large amount of skill points, you would not have to remake a character and re-level as heavily, instead of exploiting glitches and game flaws.
The vast majority of games will be hell chaos and baals, as those are the best to level in.
This is exactly my point. This "runs" aren't even entertaining, they're a choir. You sit in a room or follow a Hammderin or some other abused character around, most likely with tons of duped runes and gear, usually a bot, and leech experience points. There's hardly ever even any talking. You just go from "Baal 01" to "Baal 02". Wow, that really brings the Diablo community together! That is really a challenge!
Adding the respeccing option would lessen the need for this and allow players to focus more of their time doing other things which I feel are more multiplayer-oriented, like dueling.
I'm glad to see you are stating my previous argument that Diablo II characters are not unique.
Why the hell would there be any less character variation? All it is is an option to relocate a preset number of skill points. It's not like it's something like immunities or synergies which lock skills in to rigid builds. In fact, it would not affect builds at all.
What the heck does that have to do with anything?
First off, why shouldn't they be able to? If they can't, they'll just exploit more game flaws and glitches to come about the same effect. When you get rushed, first off, you're trying to get through the game as fast as possible. If you could respec, you would essentially be doing the ultimate rush. It's a win-win situation, I see no reason why you should even be arguing it.
So, you would agree that it is a good thing that restriction was added by the legacy team in patch 1.10? If so, you would also have to agree that they do not want to have everyone just skipping through the game or they wouldn't have implemented it.
Not doing any of the work, got it.
So you can milk areas for experience following bots or other cloned characters once again doing all the work with little-to-no player-to-player interaction and once again taking advantage of a game flaw- that you weren't intended to just level and level in these areas, you were intended to get to an adequate level before hand on the way there through the various fields and dungeons.
Never said that.
They obviously don't, since you're in a 16.28% minority and you and others have been repeatedly rebutted by other members and me in this thread.
There is permanance now. Once you assign stats or skills its permanent to that character. If you delete and make a new one its not the same character anymore. However you seem to grasp the concept of how easy it is to correct mistakes, do you really want it to be made even easier? btw when I mentioned previously how fast you could level people still cried about it being tedious and unfair to have to use the delete/remake method to fix a mistake, yet you refer to it as free respec in a day lol.
Ok.
I'm just going on the assumption they can't ever really make multiplayer slower then single player, and I could walk a character up to hell baal in a few days, so I don't see how it'd ever take months to build a character for anyone with a clue. You say "fix rushing," how do you suggest fixing someone having a friend help them out to do something faster? Like I mentioned before, even if you had to complete every quest in the game, it just means a rush would take 20 minutes instead of 10, big deal.
Otherwise, I can't really tell if you think making the game more restrictive is a good or bad thing. I always thought it was a good thing to not be restrictive. I love how in this game, knowing what your doing can allow you to accomplish more in an hour then some clueless guy can accomplish in 5. If you make game progession more restrictive its just making it so game knowledge, efficiency, and actually bothering to make a few bnet friends means a lot less, and the game will become more of a mindless grindfest. Top it off with respecs making it so you can't even make any mistakes, and it just doesn't seem like that would be evolving the game into something more appealing.
Seth hath lain down the law. Now respect his *Cartman's pronunciation* Authority!
Temporary Edit: I'll post a link to the episode where Cartman says "Respect my Authority". But for now, I'm hitting the haystack.
Got it, so you should have to kill 95% of the monsters in each area to proceed to the next, otherwise, your skipping more then your allocated 5% allowance and exploiting a flaw.
Your right, I'll inform my friends they are no longer aloud to help me in certain areas of the game because its abusing a flaw in the design of the game.
So, we should have to dumb down the game to make it more newbie friendly, rather then expect newbs to put a little effort into learning the game. Good idea.
Let me paraphrase:
1. Its not fair I have to relevel a character I screwed up or some variation there of.
2. Its not fair I have to relevel a character I screwed up or some variation there of.
Uh...they make new characters because the previous are all permanantly what they made them to be. If I make a sorc, spend all my stat and skill points, I can't ever change it, how is that not permanant? If I make a new sorc, the previous is still there. If I erase it, the sorc is permanantly gone.
Wow thats digging pretty deep, lack of character skins means your character has no uniqueness to it lol.
Otherwise, I half agree, half disagree. Sure, theres only so many possible ways to distribute your stat and skill points, and some ways just arent good, and theres only so many pieces of gear, some of which are more desireable then others, so naturally there are always going to be similar characters. Even still the only characters with exactly the same score screen you'll ever come across are level 99's on non ladder wearing identle sets of perfect modded gear and carrying identicle inventories of perfect torches, perfect annies, and perfect charms.
However, I disagree with functionally acceptable builds always inherently being the same. Example, WWsin. Some people use chaos/fury, some use chaos/fools claw, some even use chaos/bartucs. Some only use 1 point into lightning sentry/wof for locking people, some dump more points into traps so they can actually do meaningful damage, some max traps and prefer to do trap damage over ww damage. Some use dragon flight, some dont. Some wear nigma, some wear fort, some wear bramble. Regardless, the point is I could go on and on listing ways people tweak WWsins, and thats just one build for one class. It comes down to what you can afford for gear, and your personal playstyle, and your ability to best tailor your character to those two factors.
But seriously now, how is elite gear a game flaw? Theres always going to be "best" gear, if variations in gear quality is a flaw why not just play a shooter? I'm starting to even wonder why you bother with this game if it has so many deep rooted design flaws lol.
Wow, and you said I am ignoring all your good points. You quoted from me a few lines above where you said this...
And shortly when I make a witty comment about hammerdins and summoners, because they are two of the dominant pvm builds for paladins and necros you come back with...
I don't know how to break it down any further for you.
Then why do you keep complaining about how flawed allowing a higher level character to help speed you through the game is? If its so flawed as you say, then there is something wrong with it.
Ok, so your admitting respecs will make hell baal and chaos runs more common...
Then one line later...
Your talking about how awful they are. Fixing bots would do a lot more to make the game enjoyable then respecs, because guess what, your going to be a worthless dueler with crappy gear, and the only way to get decent gear is to do some runs. Even if your an epic trader, your gonna have to do some runs on occasion to get things to trade off.
*palm to face* I thought we already covered this. Some areas are going to be more efficient then others simply because they are more densely packed with monsters or have more unique monsters. I guess I'll just revert down to one of your tactics since I'm getting tired of your obvious trolling. If you don't like bots don't use one.(
People can still support something for stupid reasons. Guess I'll just make sure to bump this thread and say I told ya so 6 months after the patch when bnet is deader then ever.
Imo they could prevent rushing since playing the game through normally is really fast even without it.. Nowadays I almost always do all quests and it doesn't take long time.. more unpatient people could just get wp's from someone and go through the game even a bit faster.
The worst part is normal ofc.. nm and hell is just a run through with your powerful skills.
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
Yes, if you want to take it to extremes, since that's what you seem locked in to arguing in.
There is a huge difference between helping you through an area and killing everything for you so that you get quests done with no work invested.
There would not be any "dumbing down" of the game. There would be an option to fix prior mistakes should they arise, and the option would be ideally hard to obtain.
To make it user friendly, for both the older player and the newer player. But you've so far ignored both arguments.
That was never suggested. They will obviously have to put effort in the game to get anywhere in the game, otherwise there would be no progress.
Thank you.
You are very bad at paraphrasing. There's hardly any point in debating with you because you are so set on ignorance.
Because you can just go and make another and get another rush to skip as much of the content as possible again and again (exploit game flaws).
What is the point of having "permanent" characters if you can just go and make them by the bucket load as much as you please? Yes, technically the data of the character, itself, is permanent, but you can still make as many as you'd like, which is the same as remaking the same character over and over. So they're not permanent in practice.
No, I said nothing about character skins. I said that because of flaws in the game already (including, but not limited to, dual-immunities, synergies, over-powered runewords and uniques, and so on) essentially every character wears the same stuff, or strives to wear the same stuff, on Battle.net and the vast majority of players utilize the same exact builds because the game is not designed to accommodate variation
I can go in to channels in Diablo II and pick out tons of people with the same gear as others of their class just by looking at them. Just by sitting in a channel you can evidence that people are asking purely about cookie-cutter builds. They're all the same.
Nonesense, they're all over ladder right now.
And what do the vast majority use? The commonly-accepted items. And what do they strive for? The most powerful items for their build, which are the same for every character using the same build.
Because there is almost no variation with gear.
There are only a few I consider issues, and once they are gone all the other side-effects would clear up- dual-immunes and synergies. Those are my biggest issues.
Wow, and you said I am ignoring all your good points. You quoted from me a few lines above where you said this...
Because they weren't even relevant to the argument.
It's annoying how many times I have to repeat this for you: I have no problem with a higher-leveled character helping out a weaker one. What I have an issue with is hundreds of games all being created for the soul purpose of a cookie-cutter build doing all the work for the weaker character to get all the quests done. That is not playing the game in any sense, that is getting someone to play it for you.
Funny how you continue to just attack me on a personal level.
How the heck did you even get that out of it? I said that if you are allowed to respec, you will not need to re-level, so all of these "runs" will not be in such high demand. That is not contradictory at all.
I'm talking about hundreds of games all going at once in which a full game of players simply sits in a room and leeches experience, not even talking to each other, not even strategizing. If they were doing both of those things, if there was a challenge and they were all pitching in and cooperating instead of just having some random runner kill monsters for them while they sit there like dumb sheep for game after game, then I would feel differently about it.
I'm not the one throwing personal attacks all over the place.
I don't, so we're square. The difference here is that bots are against the EULA and respecs would not be since they would be implemented in a patch as an option integrated in to the game.
I agree.
Sure, and I'll make sure to hold up on my part in this and do the same thing when it proves that it is not "deader" and is, in fact, thriving as it always has been.
Honestly, I think respeccing is awesome, but keep everything else the same.
Well I don't see where your coming from when you say having a higher level friend help me out is a flaw in the game, but that I shouldnt have to kill a majority of monsters in an area to proceed. What should I have to walk from entrance to exit of each area on my own only killing whats on my way, because clearing the area would be extreme, and having help to speed past it would be extreme?
It is unfair to expect newer players to be as knowledgable of the game as someone with years of experience, therefore we should dumb the game down to make it easier for them. Its a point and click game, with a character menu, a skills tree menu, and an inventory menu. It comes with an instruction manual. Theres tons of websites, some of which are even afilliated with blizzard, designed to share knowledge of the game. Yeah your not talking about newbies, because theres a lot of veteran players on here that are still having a hard time learning features of the game, and that are working on their first build still.
Clearly there is character permanance if I must do this.
Oh ok, I'm going to keep erasing characters to make the same exact thing over and over without making any tweaks to it. Besides, if I have a red corvette, someone steals it and I collect insurance money and buy a new red corvette, I don't still have the same red corvette do I?
Lies.
I just wrote a paragraph about similar builds using different gear set ups. If your smart and into dueling, your not even going to have 1 gear set up, your going to have swaps in stash, which would be why I'm against any sort of stash expansion/shared stashes if you'd like to know. Your pretty slick if you can tell the difference between an assassin with a bramble, a nigma, a fort, or one with a cracked version of the same armor as the others while sitting in a channel, even in game the only one you'd be able to pick out without playing with them for a bit would be the bramble, thanks to the aura.
Even hammerdins, probably the most numerous build have many gear variations. Some wear coas, some wear shakos, some wear circlets. Some swear by hotos, others wizardspikes. You see a lot using hoz's, but a lot also use spirit shields. Depending on their gear set up some use soj's, others use rare fcr rings. Every build has variations, which, like I said earlier, depend upon your budget and your personal playstyle or taste. What's the best weapon for a charger?
Yes it does. I must have mentioned 30 times now that allowing people to respec will encourage everyone to level as one of the better pvm builds for their class. So by asking you if you like hammerdins and summoners, its because your going to see a ton of them. Do you understand?
*palm to face* Sure not everyone is going to use something different, but there is quite a bit of variation from build to build, and even different tweaks of the same build. Are you still trying to figure out why some wind druids use spirit monarchs and others use stormshields, or you just thought all windy's were the same becuase they looked the same? Even back in the day when randoms were often your best gear choices, there were still ideal mods on randoms that were more commonly sought after then others.
I have no problem with a higher-leveled character helping out a weaker one. What I have an issue with is hundreds of games all being created for the soul purpose of a cookie-cutter build doing all the work for the weaker character to get all the quests done. That is not playing the game in any sense, that is getting someone to play it for you.
Ever try to level an auradin, you know, one of the real ones that your main aura is conviction and most of your damage comes froms auras off gears? Good luck getting anything done solo. Ever try to level a ghost? Have fun. You'd probably run out of money to fix your chaos claw, if you even could level enough to get to wear it. Some builds suck at pvm, its a multiplayer game, you get help to do it as quickly as possible.
I know, I know, I'm about to put words in your mouth again so I'll phrase it as a question. What do you want every character to be equal dps and have an equal amount of single immune monsters so pvm is fair? My old fire sorc blew nuts at pvm in hell, couldnt even solo a baal or chaos run with godly gear, but I could join a pub duel with her and kill everyone in it no problem. I never had a problem with that. Same for my bva, sucked pretty bad at pvm, was slow and costed a lot to keep gear repaired, but was a nasty dueler. So yeah, if I wanted to level one of these, I'd obviously go leech someone, but if I felt like hosting the runs I'd use one of my more capable pvm characters.
Doot dee doo.
It wasn't attacking you on a personal level. You keep pointing out flaws in the game. A flaw is something not right with something. How exactly is the statement "If its so flawed as you say, then there is something wrong with it" attacking you? You said its flawed, if it has flaws, there are things wrong with it...
If you didnt contradict yourself so much and keep denying you said things when I can scroll back and quote them I wouldn't assume you were trolling.
Agreed, but it doesn't change the fact that bots have a huge negative impact on the game for anyone not using one, as will respecs.
Fixing bots would solve some of this, however, like I mentioned above, some builds just suck at pvm. They arent useless characters, its just why bother even pretending to do anything when your in a baal run where 3 hdins, a trapper, and a blizz sorc kill everything within 5 seconds of each spawn and your on a bvc and dont feel like damaging your weapons.
I'm glad this game doesn't have the same features a lot of other games have, like in guild wars, when an 8 man group has to follow the basic set up of 2 healers, 2 tanks, and some nukers/status/hex spammers to do anything. If your two heales leave your screwed, if your tanks leave, your screwed. At least in D2 every character has potential to be a pvm or pvp power house depending how you build them, your not at the constant mercy of finding people of complementing classes to play with. However if you do, it can speed things up a lot and make things much easier. Hate dual immunes? Find a friend that plays a pally with conviction or necro that has lower res, or try a bowzon with an amp damage spammer.
I wouldn't exactly call it thriving compared to what it used to be like unless you count bots.
You have conflicting arguments here. The second paragraph is a pointed and powerful argument FOR respecing. Leveling some builds absolutely sucks, all experienced players know this. Adding respecs enables people to more easily play the game the way it was meant to be played, without relying on grushes or power leveling to make the character they want.
Adding respecs without fixing grush, uber leveling and bots is perhaps not the best idea as good players will find a way to exploit it with whatever class/spec makes it into 1.13 as overpowered. However, if they do manage to curtail bots and stop grushing, respecing would make playing the game through a lot more fun as you wouldn't have to suffer through being useless until your skills & gear become available by level.
Nah, its a multiplayer game, make friends and get help. You don't have to grush and power level to build harder to level builds, you can just find some friends doing a playthrough and follow along. Some builds have more of a coolness factor to them since they are harder to make. Most of such builds are basically pvp builds anyhow, so if you make them uber at pvp and uber at pvm, then what becomes the use of builds that are more pvm oriented?
Grushing would be an easy fix if they wanted to. I dont have very much faith in blizzard to fix the botting though, seems to me like each ladders just been more hacked then the previous. Like some other dude already mentioned, and its not going to be a big suprise when it happens, people will just bot level 99 on a pvm build and respec to something more pvp oriented that couldnt handle functioning as a bot. Way to implement a change that rewards botting even more blizzard, I applaud you.
Back to the thing with some characters sucking at pvm and why I like it, how many level 99 auradins did you see last ladder vs level 99 hammerdins? If you were to actually level an auardin to 99 it'd be cool as hell, since you'd probably be the only one to do it on ladder, but after respeccing it wont mean anything. It'll just mean you fully botted a hammerdin, respecced, and leveled up another character to run as your hdin bot. Fixing bots and duping would be infinitely more beneficial to the game then respecs. Bet you won't see either fixed.
If i'm playing through the game with some friends, I don't want to follow them and watch them kill everything while I sit and uselessly white attack everything because I'm playing a wind druid before level 24. That is a separate issue, that some builds are utterly useless before lvl 24/30 but it ties into respecs because the build issue is unlikely to be fixed, and is much easier to bypass by adding respecs.
I doubt they would put the effort into a patch if they didn't make some effort with it to lower the prevalancy of bots and dupes. How effective they'll be is yet to be seen, and you're right that it probably won't work well or for long. But to say that respecs will encourage more botting? If you're going to set up a bot, you're going to do it whether respecs are in the game or not. Respecs may lower the number of bots running for all we know, because people only have to level 1 of each class instead of 2 or more.
Also, there is nothing stopping people from botting non-hdin characters to 99 right now. You simply need to have the bot follow another bot doing baal runs. It may take longer, but it is definately doable. It pretty much makes any character over 95 suspect of botting, because who in their right mind is going to put that much manual time into a game this old? Some may, but a great many of them probably are botted. Also, all of our chacters are tainted by bots and dupes, since almost everyone follows botted baal runs and the odds are overwhelmingly in favor of every HR you trade for is a dupe.
Respecs - if done right - will keep me from leveling 2-3 copies of some classes each season to test different builds and playstyles. I welcome them. If people bot a cold sorc up to 99 then switch it to fire, it has almost no impact. They could have done nearly the exact same thing today, only following another bot instead of killing everything themselves.
Consider it a test platform for what's to come.
No.
Don't bring that up AGAIN.
I'm aware not everyone wants to read through the whole topic... but damnit.