"That's not respeccing, that's trudging through the whole game again, repeating rinsed garbage, and painstakingly redoing all of your work with the hope you won't mess up again, at which point you would have to do the same thing over."
simple solution DONT MESS UP
if you dont like diablo 2 the way it is, why are you here?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DIABLO = DEVIL its not supposed to be a nice game autostats are rediclous lack of pots is not welcome if it aint broke dont fix it! (diablo2)
First off, characters aren't interchangable, only the skills. The gear would still need to be appropriate as well as the stat points. Secondly, a mistaken skill point or an unwisely invested-in skill does not make your character unique, it makes it weak. Making that permanent is not fair to a player who has spent hours playing that character and earned every level they have. Only allowing it to be "fixed" by redoing those hours of play is not fun, for me or many thousands of other players who are making and remaking characters hourly and just rushing through the game. Why are they doing that latter part? Because the part of the game they are interested in at that point is not the story- they've done that already countless times. Forcing anyone to do anything in a game is not conducive to a fun atmosphere. It isn't a challenge, it's an annoyance most of the time.
"Irrevocable" skill point placement does not make the game anymore "fun" for me. If you do not want to use the skill respeccing system, the game will not force you to do so.
if you dont like diablo 2 the way it is,
Because I feel that there are many basic game flaws and glitches in this game that have never been fixed for years, and I am fully within my rights to discuss them, because, in my opinion, fixing them makes the game better. That would be like saying "if I don't agree with everything in the game series, I'm not a fan".
like i said no use arguing or even discussing it.
different values make our views irreconcilable.
maybe the system they implement can bridge our opinions.
Quote from "Seth" »
"Irrevocable" skill point placement does not make the game anymore "fun" for me. If you do not want to use the skill respeccing system, the game will not force you to do so.
on this though.. as ivaron has noted, people keep saying this and it's just silly.
imagine a city in the sky.
people use tightropes to walk from building to building etc. (stay with me.. the tightropes are permanent skill choices)
if i put a road up there, (road = respec) about a foot underneath the tightropes, do you think anyone would continue to use the tightropes or learn to tightrope walk? of course not.
now you're gonna go.. omg roads are so much better than tightropes. but the analogy ended before that, and so it's not the point at all.
...and even if you thought it was applicable, the experience of the city in the sky, with it's fanciful and cautious denizens, is ruined.
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they'll never see me coming.. life is a sequence of tragedies, inconsistent only by fleeting, elusive moments of pleasure,
serving only to ensure absolute vulnerability to the pain of their inevitable absence.
Because I feel that there are many basic game flaws and glitches in this game that have never been fixed for years, and I am fully within my rights to discuss them, because, in my opinion, fixing them makes the game better. That would be like saying "if I don't agree with everything in the game series, I'm not a fan".
you feel wrong.... there are little to no flaws in diablo 2
seems like for the most part, people who have a problem with the game are playing non-ladder where all the duping/hacking/glitching is going on.
i hate you people, ruining it for the real players.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DIABLO = DEVIL its not supposed to be a nice game autostats are rediclous lack of pots is not welcome if it aint broke dont fix it! (diablo2)
you feel wrong.... there are little to no flaws in diablo 2
seems like for the most part, people who have a problem with the game are playing non-ladder where all the duping/hacking/glitching is going on.
i hate you people, ruining it for the real players.
Get out of your hole a little. You are not a real player more than anyone else for any reason whatoever. Little to no flaws in the game? Oh god...
I understand and can show respec to those against respec etc... I mean, you can like something else. But that can of post just scream stupidity. If all you can do is blame others and claim its flawless, and that you are a "real player"... I'm sorry. Its just too much.
im sorry for being passionate, about a game that i loved since day one. im sorry, but i cant sit by idly anymore and watch it slowly beingin to become everything i dont want it to become.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DIABLO = DEVIL its not supposed to be a nice game autostats are rediclous lack of pots is not welcome if it aint broke dont fix it! (diablo2)
When blizzard announced respecs in D3 I was very pleased and i'm sure it will add alot to the game, but I'm against respecs in D2. Why?
Because D2 and D3 are different games. The fact is: D3 are been made to a new generation, not D2 old schoolas. The whole game structure will be builded in a way that respecs not only make sense but are a essential part of the gameplay.
But i don't see the point in D2 respec. Remake characters and creat characters to a sole task is a core element of D2. You like it or not, the only real thing to do in D2 is: build up a new character or PvP. And respec are prejudicial to both. They are changing the core of the game and i'm against it. It doesn't matter if it's for good or for bad, the core of the game should never ever be changed. It's a matter of respect with the people who appreciates it.
And i'm not passionate, nor old fassioned. Actually I allways HATED this aspect of D2, i allwasy though D2 is a AVARAGE (nowdays BAD) game and the only reason I'm here is for Diablo 1. But I feel bad for the fans that will loose a game and i think it's pretty unethical from blizzard.
Core changes and make the game attractive to a more actual crowd is the function of sequels. It's the function of D3. D2 should stay old and filled with "flaws" for all eternity just because theres people who like those flaws playing it and they deserve respect.
So, if you value this "very little time investment", which hangs on wasting a good couple of hours doing the same exact things over in the game, why not just remove the time investment completely so that you can do what really matters with your character- play it?
Theres already a genre of online games that dont require character development. They're called first person shooters. If I wanted a game taht required no time investment to build a character I'd go play one of those rather then whine a relatively fast moving rpg needs to be even faster.
I value how I can tell my character is going to be total garbage with little time investment, but if you can remember the rest of what I said, you can also work on the same character for an entire ladder trying to level and get uber gear.
Still have yet to see a good reason for respecs on this thread other then QQ its not fair that I messed up.
anyway my point is that irrevocable, permanent choices are not a flaw to me; they are deeply important to my diablo experience, both for the gravity of the decision itself and for what it means to the character.
I literally just realized Bashiok said this, even though it looks like it was a little while ago. I think I'm slow.
Quote from "Bashiok" »
There will be an easily accessed but very limited way characters will have access to respecs, and another way ...
So, now I'm wondering what he means here. Does he mean only one of these options (2) will be limited and the other one not as limited, or they're both just as limited but... I don't know. Typical Blizzard crap, not telling you anything useful but just enough to mindfuck you :rolleyes:
Still have yet to see a good reason for respecs on this thread other then QQ its not fair that I messed up.
Actually, tons of other reasons were given. You should try rereading the last fourteen pages
Also, please watch your trolling and off topic discussions, this is about respeccing, not who you think is or is not a "real" fan or player of the game, or infractions will be dealt out accordingly (that is not open to discussion).
do you think anyone would continue to use the tightropes or learn to tightrope walk? of course not.
I think it doesn't matter one way or the other. The choice is there, no one makes it for you or forces you to do anything. But, like you said, differing values will make all of our views unreconcilable, especially over something that seems so far to be a very touchy subject. But then, what subject about Diablo isn't touchy? Every time a change or something new is mentioned, we get people who absolutely hate it, lukewarms, and people who absolutely love it. I just hardly ever feel like discussing anything like this on the board anymore because people in these situations often completely disregard whole points, which unnerves me. I hope to God I'm not doing that myself, though.
Also, please watch your trolling and off topic discussions, this is about respeccing, not who you think is or is not a "real" fan or player of the game, or infractions will be dealt out accordingly (that is not open to discussion).
I apologize for my attitude sometimes, but I don't have your level of control and just speak my mind no matter how bad it is. I'm saying that because I feel that was aimed particularly at me, since you erased one of my post and thats what it was about.
Quote from "blood-doll" »
like i said no use arguing or even discussing it.
different values make our views irreconcilable.
maybe the system they implement can bridge our opinions.
Well, this discussion goes nowhere. People here are dead set on wanting things a way that cannot co-exist with the addition of respecing. There is little they can do to "bridge" opinions, as I believe "too little" or "too much" would not make one side or the other satisfied.
Quote from "Seth" »
So, now I'm wondering what he means here. Does he mean only one of these options (2) will be limited and the other one not as limited, or they're both just as limited but... I don't know. Typical Blizzard crap, not telling you anything useful but just enough to mindfuck you :rolleyes:
I -think- we are talking about 1 easy way, that can be mostly used to fix your build, not change it entirely, but easily accessible. So if you made a mistake going X skill and got 5 points in it, maybe you could undo just that.
And the other way, harder to get/more expensive that you can use to do a real respec, as in reset all your skills.
There was not a single reason given other then "I shouldnt have to go through the whole game again becuase I screwed my character up," which amounts to QQ its not fair that I can't be 1337 just because I don't understand the game as much as some other people.
There was not a single reason given other then "I shouldnt have to go through the whole game again becuase I screwed my character up," which amounts to QQ its not fair that I can't be 1337 just because I don't understand the game as much as some other people.
What about, "I've finished the game after having tested this one build, but I'd like to give this other build a shot?" Or possibly, "This is my first character, I've been playing with friends, and we just got to Hell difficulty, and I'm specced <This way>, but it's worthless here, and re-rolling would undo all of the work we just did."
Remember, not everyone is a hardcore "Lets get g-rushed and do chaos runs until 80" kind of person.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
------------------------------------------- Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
"This is my first character, I've been playing with friends, and we just got to Hell difficulty, and I'm specced <This way>, but it's worthless here, and re-rolling would undo all of the work we just did."
Hey thanks for supporting me, becuase this directly translates to "I screwed up, why should I have to deal with my mistake"
What about, "I've finished the game after having tested this one build, but I'd like to give this other build a shot?"
Remember, not everyone is a hardcore "Lets get g-rushed and do chaos runs until 80" kind of person.
So you do some trist runs, tomb runs, cow runs, anciets at 24, and then start baaling, if you have friends in hell with you who will baal you in pub games, that other lowbies usually join so you all get more exp, you can catch up to them pretty damn fast with no grush involved. Its pretty fun sometimes doing newbie runs like this, but hey who cares if its going to be impossible to ever fill a game up with lowbies becuase everyone can respec their screw ups away. Not all characters are meant to be equal. Some are better pvp and not so good pvm, some awesome pvm and not so good pvp, some decent at both, and some just suck. If you want to be equal in all parts of the game as everyone else, check out Call of Duty.
As far as the not everyone is a hardcore grusher, I've never made an argument for why grushing should be kept around. You can do legit rushes without grushing. To complain about people skipping quests not important to push through the storyline and having help to kill bosses(legit rush omg), then to complain its boring and tedious to have to level a new character in the next breath, just doesn't make very much sense. Even if you had to do every quest to push through the storyline, it'd just mean the difference of a legit rush taking 20 minutes instead of 10.(not counting however fast you can level to 24 to hit 25 off ancients and be able to baal.) Even if they patched it so you couldnt move back to a difficulty after you beat it to prevent people from legit rushing, you'd just see people leaving level 40's in normal forever for the purpose of norm runs, and a level 70 in nm forever for nm rushing. I always thought the ability to have someone give you waypoints and help on bosses was one of the perks to playing on bnet instead of on single player.
Reading this discussion i have realized two things, its now an argument nit picking small irrevent facts from each side of the argument. Every once in a while there is a decent conclusion. I would like to see non-skewed counter arguments, not just I'm right your wrong. I kinda see a war going on between nickm88 and seth.
That being said I am going to try to offer an analogy to respecing pertaining to real life. (I liked the tightrope-road example)
In life we make decisions, we start by going to school, maybe undergraduate, maybe graduate school. We find a job. We do things that promote our interests and develop our lives. We don't break laws, steal, kill people etc. (i know this may provoke... its just a game but bare with me I'm not directly relating the game to life; I'm relating permanent choices to non-permanent.) Each choice we made is done, there are consequences for them... going to jail, comm. service etc. So yes every choice is permanent.
Does that mean you can't go back to school for a new discipline 'ie small repecting?' No! go ahead. Does this mean you can go back to the beginning 'full respecing' not commit the crime that landed you 10 years in jail, well no. (Therefore an option not a luxury of life, make a 'new' character.)
I personally believe for a decision in the game to be more meaning full it should be more permanent. (my whole pursuit of things challenging is more rewarding argument)
What's funny is that he seems to be all about people having to deal with 'screwing up', while at the same time advocating for ridiculous rushing, which basically negates anyone having to 'deal' with anything.
Just imagine Nick with a 'Don't Feed the Troll' sign and this thread would have gone / will go much smoother. I can't believe this thread is still going, it should have been nuked from orbit around page 4.
Well I think it's a wrap, I've read the 2 best comments of this thread (venom + kizerai). Worthless arguing like Sf said :P. Quit nagging and go play outside kids ;)!
Well I think it's a wrap, I've read the 2 best comments of this thread (venom + kizerai). Worthless arguing like Sf said :P. Quit nagging and go play outside kids ;)!
here here. kids....when will they learn that nobody cares what they think..lol
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simple solution DONT MESS UP
if you dont like diablo 2 the way it is, why are you here?
its not supposed to be a nice game
autostats are rediclous
lack of pots is not welcome
if it aint broke dont fix it! (diablo2)
First off, characters aren't interchangable, only the skills. The gear would still need to be appropriate as well as the stat points. Secondly, a mistaken skill point or an unwisely invested-in skill does not make your character unique, it makes it weak. Making that permanent is not fair to a player who has spent hours playing that character and earned every level they have. Only allowing it to be "fixed" by redoing those hours of play is not fun, for me or many thousands of other players who are making and remaking characters hourly and just rushing through the game. Why are they doing that latter part? Because the part of the game they are interested in at that point is not the story- they've done that already countless times. Forcing anyone to do anything in a game is not conducive to a fun atmosphere. It isn't a challenge, it's an annoyance most of the time.
"Irrevocable" skill point placement does not make the game anymore "fun" for me. If you do not want to use the skill respeccing system, the game will not force you to do so.
Because I feel that there are many basic game flaws and glitches in this game that have never been fixed for years, and I am fully within my rights to discuss them, because, in my opinion, fixing them makes the game better. That would be like saying "if I don't agree with everything in the game series, I'm not a fan".
See above.
different values make our views irreconcilable.
maybe the system they implement can bridge our opinions.
on this though.. as ivaron has noted, people keep saying this and it's just silly.
imagine a city in the sky.
people use tightropes to walk from building to building etc. (stay with me.. the tightropes are permanent skill choices)
if i put a road up there, (road = respec) about a foot underneath the tightropes, do you think anyone would continue to use the tightropes or learn to tightrope walk? of course not.
now you're gonna go.. omg roads are so much better than tightropes. but the analogy ended before that, and so it's not the point at all.
...and even if you thought it was applicable, the experience of the city in the sky, with it's fanciful and cautious denizens, is ruined.
they'll never see me coming..
life is a sequence of tragedies, inconsistent only by fleeting, elusive moments of pleasure,
serving only to ensure absolute vulnerability to the pain of their inevitable absence.
you feel wrong.... there are little to no flaws in diablo 2
seems like for the most part, people who have a problem with the game are playing non-ladder where all the duping/hacking/glitching is going on.
i hate you people, ruining it for the real players.
its not supposed to be a nice game
autostats are rediclous
lack of pots is not welcome
if it aint broke dont fix it! (diablo2)
Get out of your hole a little. You are not a real player more than anyone else for any reason whatoever. Little to no flaws in the game? Oh god...
I understand and can show respec to those against respec etc... I mean, you can like something else. But that can of post just scream stupidity. If all you can do is blame others and claim its flawless, and that you are a "real player"... I'm sorry. Its just too much.
its not supposed to be a nice game
autostats are rediclous
lack of pots is not welcome
if it aint broke dont fix it! (diablo2)
Because D2 and D3 are different games. The fact is: D3 are been made to a new generation, not D2 old schoolas. The whole game structure will be builded in a way that respecs not only make sense but are a essential part of the gameplay.
But i don't see the point in D2 respec. Remake characters and creat characters to a sole task is a core element of D2. You like it or not, the only real thing to do in D2 is: build up a new character or PvP. And respec are prejudicial to both. They are changing the core of the game and i'm against it. It doesn't matter if it's for good or for bad, the core of the game should never ever be changed. It's a matter of respect with the people who appreciates it.
And i'm not passionate, nor old fassioned. Actually I allways HATED this aspect of D2, i allwasy though D2 is a AVARAGE (nowdays BAD) game and the only reason I'm here is for Diablo 1. But I feel bad for the fans that will loose a game and i think it's pretty unethical from blizzard.
Core changes and make the game attractive to a more actual crowd is the function of sequels. It's the function of D3. D2 should stay old and filled with "flaws" for all eternity just because theres people who like those flaws playing it and they deserve respect.
Theres already a genre of online games that dont require character development. They're called first person shooters. If I wanted a game taht required no time investment to build a character I'd go play one of those rather then whine a relatively fast moving rpg needs to be even faster.
I value how I can tell my character is going to be total garbage with little time investment, but if you can remember the rest of what I said, you can also work on the same character for an entire ladder trying to level and get uber gear.
Still have yet to see a good reason for respecs on this thread other then QQ its not fair that I messed up.
yes.
So, now I'm wondering what he means here. Does he mean only one of these options (2) will be limited and the other one not as limited, or they're both just as limited but... I don't know. Typical Blizzard crap, not telling you anything useful but just enough to mindfuck you :rolleyes:
Actually, tons of other reasons were given. You should try rereading the last fourteen pages
Also, please watch your trolling and off topic discussions, this is about respeccing, not who you think is or is not a "real" fan or player of the game, or infractions will be dealt out accordingly (that is not open to discussion).
I think it doesn't matter one way or the other. The choice is there, no one makes it for you or forces you to do anything. But, like you said, differing values will make all of our views unreconcilable, especially over something that seems so far to be a very touchy subject. But then, what subject about Diablo isn't touchy? Every time a change or something new is mentioned, we get people who absolutely hate it, lukewarms, and people who absolutely love it. I just hardly ever feel like discussing anything like this on the board anymore because people in these situations often completely disregard whole points, which unnerves me. I hope to God I'm not doing that myself, though.
I apologize for my attitude sometimes, but I don't have your level of control and just speak my mind no matter how bad it is. I'm saying that because I feel that was aimed particularly at me, since you erased one of my post and thats what it was about.
Well, this discussion goes nowhere. People here are dead set on wanting things a way that cannot co-exist with the addition of respecing. There is little they can do to "bridge" opinions, as I believe "too little" or "too much" would not make one side or the other satisfied.
I -think- we are talking about 1 easy way, that can be mostly used to fix your build, not change it entirely, but easily accessible. So if you made a mistake going X skill and got 5 points in it, maybe you could undo just that.
And the other way, harder to get/more expensive that you can use to do a real respec, as in reset all your skills.
At least thats what I get from it.
There was not a single reason given other then "I shouldnt have to go through the whole game again becuase I screwed my character up," which amounts to QQ its not fair that I can't be 1337 just because I don't understand the game as much as some other people.
What about, "I've finished the game after having tested this one build, but I'd like to give this other build a shot?" Or possibly, "This is my first character, I've been playing with friends, and we just got to Hell difficulty, and I'm specced <This way>, but it's worthless here, and re-rolling would undo all of the work we just did."
Remember, not everyone is a hardcore "Lets get g-rushed and do chaos runs until 80" kind of person.
-------------------------------------------
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
-------------------------------------------
Hey thanks for supporting me, becuase this directly translates to "I screwed up, why should I have to deal with my mistake"
So you do some trist runs, tomb runs, cow runs, anciets at 24, and then start baaling, if you have friends in hell with you who will baal you in pub games, that other lowbies usually join so you all get more exp, you can catch up to them pretty damn fast with no grush involved. Its pretty fun sometimes doing newbie runs like this, but hey who cares if its going to be impossible to ever fill a game up with lowbies becuase everyone can respec their screw ups away. Not all characters are meant to be equal. Some are better pvp and not so good pvm, some awesome pvm and not so good pvp, some decent at both, and some just suck. If you want to be equal in all parts of the game as everyone else, check out Call of Duty.
As far as the not everyone is a hardcore grusher, I've never made an argument for why grushing should be kept around. You can do legit rushes without grushing. To complain about people skipping quests not important to push through the storyline and having help to kill bosses(legit rush omg), then to complain its boring and tedious to have to level a new character in the next breath, just doesn't make very much sense. Even if you had to do every quest to push through the storyline, it'd just mean the difference of a legit rush taking 20 minutes instead of 10.(not counting however fast you can level to 24 to hit 25 off ancients and be able to baal.) Even if they patched it so you couldnt move back to a difficulty after you beat it to prevent people from legit rushing, you'd just see people leaving level 40's in normal forever for the purpose of norm runs, and a level 70 in nm forever for nm rushing. I always thought the ability to have someone give you waypoints and help on bosses was one of the perks to playing on bnet instead of on single player.
That being said I am going to try to offer an analogy to respecing pertaining to real life. (I liked the tightrope-road example)
In life we make decisions, we start by going to school, maybe undergraduate, maybe graduate school. We find a job. We do things that promote our interests and develop our lives. We don't break laws, steal, kill people etc. (i know this may provoke... its just a game but bare with me I'm not directly relating the game to life; I'm relating permanent choices to non-permanent.) Each choice we made is done, there are consequences for them... going to jail, comm. service etc. So yes every choice is permanent.
Does that mean you can't go back to school for a new discipline 'ie small repecting?' No! go ahead. Does this mean you can go back to the beginning 'full respecing' not commit the crime that landed you 10 years in jail, well no. (Therefore an option not a luxury of life, make a 'new' character.)
I personally believe for a decision in the game to be more meaning full it should be more permanent. (my whole pursuit of things challenging is more rewarding argument)
I'm sick of this. All you support is punishing people IN A GAME. That tells everything about your mindset. Its worthless arguing.
Just imagine Nick with a 'Don't Feed the Troll' sign and this thread would have gone / will go much smoother. I can't believe this thread is still going, it should have been nuked from orbit around page 4.
here here. kids....when will they learn that nobody cares what they think..lol