I'm going to shoot for GR 40 this weekend using the unity trick. I just want to say that I could do it. I'll hope that Blizz changes the scaling of the damage in the future so progression is still possible without getting 1 shot every 30 seconds.
I'm going to shoot for GR 40 this weekend using the unity trick. I just want to say that I could do it. I'll hope that Blizz changes the scaling of the damage in the future so progression is still possible without getting 1 shot every 30 seconds.
I don't get your logic. When you're not getting one-shot, do you die? If not, then they are GOING TO HAVE TO one-shot you in order to increase the difficulty. I find most people can survive most things on the difficulty they find to be "their limit". If there weren't things one-shotting them, that wouldn't be their limit...
In short, how else do you recommend that they kill you to stop your progress? Because that's what has to happen. If they just add more hps to slow things down so you run out of time, it is natural to adjust away from surviveability and add damage until A) You can pass the challenge, or B ) You start dying, which the point at which everyone tries to stay just shy of.
I'm going to shoot for GR 40 this weekend using the unity trick. I just want to say that I could do it. I'll hope that Blizz changes the scaling of the damage in the future so progression is still possible without getting 1 shot every 30 seconds.
I don't get your logic. When you're not getting one-shot, do you die? If not, then they are GOING TO HAVE TO one-shot you in order to increase the difficulty. I find most people can survive most things on the difficulty they find to be "their limit". If there weren't things one-shotting them, that wouldn't be their limit...
In short, how else do you recommend that they kill you to stop your progress? Because that's what has to happen. If they just add more hps to slow things down so you run out of time, it is natural to adjust away from surviveability and add damage until A) You can pass the challenge, or B ) You start dying, which the point at which everyone tries to stay just shy of.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't like the one shot kill as the way to stop your progress. One shotting to stop you is not a matter of skill it becomes a matter of luck. Like alot of other people say the higher greater rifts are all about RNG and if your "lucky" enough to not get the jailor effect or to have a maps mob density be poor and so on and so fourth.
However I would much prefer it based on a skill perspective somehow. Honestly I don't know what the solution is, however the system that's currently in place, while it "works" to a point it's fundamentally flawed in my opinion. What's the point of having a pinnacle if no one can reach it. Like someone said earlier at GR 40+ you potentially have mobs that will kill you from off the screen. There in no skill in that it's all luck based.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't like the one shot kill as the way to stop your progress. One shotting to stop you is not a matter of skill it becomes a matter of luck. Like alot of other people say the higher greater rifts are all about RNG and if your "lucky" enough to not get the jailor effect or to have a maps mob density be poor and so on and so fourth.
However I would much prefer it based on a skill perspective somehow. Honestly I don't know what the solution is, however the system that's currently in place, while it "works" to a point it's fundamentally flawed in my opinion. What's the point of having a pinnacle if no one can reach it. Like someone said earlier at GR 40+ you potentially have mobs that will kill you from off the screen. There in no skill in that it's all luck based.
OK... but One-shotting is NOT how they stop your progress. They stop your progress by making it timed. You could, I guarantee, change your items and build around to have 2x+ the survivability you have now.. easily.. no matter what your build is. Then you would NOT get one shot by things that one-shot you now. You get one-shot because the way to get the farthest is to have as much damage as you can squeeze in until you're JUST ABOUT getting one-shot. It would be less fun to do less damage, and it may not even be practical, because at some point, it doesn't matter that you don't get one-shot, because you won't kill stuff fast enough to not die from it anyway.
You get one-shot because you're trying to ride the line of "How much damage can I possibly do". Because of that, there is no possible way they can make you NOT on the verge of getting one-shot, because you'll just lower your survivability for more damage until you're right back at the edge.
In short, you can change your build to be FAR more defensive, and you will not get one-shot any more. You WILL run out of time, because you need to ride the edge to get as far as you are now, but that's a choice you're making. You are CHOOSING to be on the verge of being one-shot, you don't have to, you just won't get as far. That's the limit of where skill can take you - to where you die from bad luck because there's nothing left to improve. And that point has to exist.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't like the one shot kill as the way to stop your progress. One shotting to stop you is not a matter of skill it becomes a matter of luck. Like alot of other people say the higher greater rifts are all about RNG and if your "lucky" enough to not get the jailor effect or to have a maps mob density be poor and so on and so fourth.
However I would much prefer it based on a skill perspective somehow. Honestly I don't know what the solution is, however the system that's currently in place, while it "works" to a point it's fundamentally flawed in my opinion. What's the point of having a pinnacle if no one can reach it. Like someone said earlier at GR 40+ you potentially have mobs that will kill you from off the screen. There in no skill in that it's all luck based.
OK... but One-shotting is NOT how they stop your progress. They stop your progress by making it timed. You could, I guarantee, change your items and build around to have 2x+ the survivability you have now.. easily.. no matter what your build is. Then you would NOT get one shot by things that one-shot you now. You get one-shot because the way to get the farthest is to have as much damage as you can squeeze in until you're JUST ABOUT getting one-shot. It would be less fun to do less damage, and it may not even be practical, because at some point, it doesn't matter that you don't get one-shot, because you won't kill stuff fast enough to not die from it anyway.
You get one-shot because you're trying to ride the line of "How much damage can I possibly do". Because of that, there is no possible way they can make you NOT on the verge of getting one-shot, because you'll just lower your survivability for more damage until you're right back at the edge.
In short, you can change your build to be FAR more defensive, and you will not get one-shot any more. You WILL run out of time, because you need to ride the edge to get as far as you are now, but that's a choice you're making. You are CHOOSING to be on the verge of being one-shot, you don't have to, you just won't get as far. That's the limit of where skill can take you - to where you die from bad luck because there's nothing left to improve. And that point has to exist.
They could stop scaling monster damage past T6 and you'd still be limited by time and monster HP while being subject to taking damage on most builds that could kill you. All without 1shot mechanics.
The line for progress shouldn't be "I'm unlucky and got 1shot" it should be "Holy shit I don't have the DPS/speed/coordination to finish this rift in time"
The former is bad design. The latter is a challenge to overcome. IT's not a difficult thing to understand.
They could stop scaling monster damage past T6 and you'd still be limited by time and monster HP while being subject to taking damage on most builds that could kill you. All without 1shot mechanics.
The line for progress shouldn't be "I'm unlucky and got 1shot" it should be "Holy shit I don't have the DPS/speed/coordination to finish this rift in time"
The former is bad design. The latter is a challenge to overcome. IT's not a difficult thing to understand.
Gotcha, but then the end-game is simply you running out of time over and over and never ever dying. Is the end game supposed to be hard in that sense? Because if they don't scale damage, people will adjust their build to the point where they can be "pretty sure" they won't die AT ALL, and that will be where they try to improve from (Because dying is easily the biggest way to lose time). So the highest challenge in the game would still not present a serious risk of death? I don't think that would be preferred.
For example, I rarely die on T6, once I get my Taeguk to 25, I don't imagine I'd have much chance of dying on T6 at all if I'm not being stupid or sloppy (or if I face 3 elite packs at once). Greater Rifts are supposed to get much harder than T6. Increasing mob HP just makes it take longer, once you can fight an elite pack on T6 indefinitely, there is no longer any difficulty added from more HP, just more time to grind down those hps. I don't find that a sufficient 'challenge'.
Now, to be fair, I've seen some good ideas that could definitely be combined with LESS damage scaling, because I do agree that from one GR level to the next, the jump often seems drastic. Such as elite density increasing (that would have to give you less progress-orbs per pack), or even scaling up white mobs by gradually mixing in affixes for them. There are plenty of ideas out there for improvements, but damage scaling should remain part of the package IMO.
Note - even if they made changes as such, I don't think the posts about a particular level being "very very annoying" will ever go away, because this is just people being annoyed by failure. And in an infinitely-scaling difficulty, failure is inevitable.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't like the one shot kill as the way to stop your progress. One shotting to stop you is not a matter of skill it becomes a matter of luck. Like alot of other people say the higher greater rifts are all about RNG and if your "lucky" enough to not get the jailor effect or to have a maps mob density be poor and so on and so fourth.
However I would much prefer it based on a skill perspective somehow. Honestly I don't know what the solution is, however the system that's currently in place, while it "works" to a point it's fundamentally flawed in my opinion. What's the point of having a pinnacle if no one can reach it. Like someone said earlier at GR 40+ you potentially have mobs that will kill you from off the screen. There in no skill in that it's all luck based.
OK... but One-shotting is NOT how they stop your progress. They stop your progress by making it timed. You could, I guarantee, change your items and build around to have 2x+ the survivability you have now.. easily.. no matter what your build is. Then you would NOT get one shot by things that one-shot you now. You get one-shot because the way to get the farthest is to have as much damage as you can squeeze in until you're JUST ABOUT getting one-shot. It would be less fun to do less damage, and it may not even be practical, because at some point, it doesn't matter that you don't get one-shot, because you won't kill stuff fast enough to not die from it anyway.
You get one-shot because you're trying to ride the line of "How much damage can I possibly do". Because of that, there is no possible way they can make you NOT on the verge of getting one-shot, because you'll just lower your survivability for more damage until you're right back at the edge.
In short, you can change your build to be FAR more defensive, and you will not get one-shot any more. You WILL run out of time, because you need to ride the edge to get as far as you are now, but that's a choice you're making. You are CHOOSING to be on the verge of being one-shot, you don't have to, you just won't get as far. That's the limit of where skill can take you - to where you die from bad luck because there's nothing left to improve. And that point has to exist.
Your absolutely right. I could certainly change my gear to be more defensive, absolutely a viable course of action. As you stated though going too defensive will lead you to the other way to stop your progress and that's the timer. So either way your still done. One way you die a lot and the next you don't but your stopped by not making the timer.
So I think the upper limit right now is GR 42? ish...I don't know for certain. Should we all just be happy at getting to that level? Is that the intent? is that considered the end game and now that your there we should feel like we have accomplished the goal?
I don't think any amount of gear that you can obtain in the game at this point would allow even the most skilled player beyond GR 42? Is that a fair statement? and lets say I'm off by a few GR levels, I personally still want to progress though some means on my character (I want to get more powerful) but again we have hit this imaginary wall that no one can climb because of the current way the mechanics are implemented in the game.
One way they sold greater rifts was a way to continually upgrade your character and get more powerful, but the way it has been implemented you will never get too GR 100, for the sake of putting a number out there, because there is no path offensive or defensive that will allow you to climb that high.
Again I'm still going to have fun playing this game, and all my posting isn't about my hating it or anything like that... I really really enjoy the game. I'm just trying to explain what I think is wrong with it.
I think most of what is the issue is monster density in GRifts. I'll post 2 scenarios:
1: What we currently have: My most hated monster is winged assassins, they jump off of screen, using a vortex (which interrupts most other creatures attack animations) still causes their jumps to do damage. Pulling in a large pack of them means I killed myself. If i let them all jump by themselves, they all jump with enough time between that i can possibly kill one or two, while also utilizing life on hit/ life per resource spent/ life per second/ life per kill. When it gets to a certain Grift level, i can still kill one or two of them....but it takes 1/10 the number of them to kill me before my health regen fails to do enough. At higher levels, a big pack of little monsters is like "yes, im gonna get some progress with no threat to my life at all, woot!"
2: What i think we should have: I agree with people saying that monster damage should stay at a flat rate, possibly T6, more likely i would like to see it maybe at a level that is around T7/8 equivalent. I think that we should see larger packs of monsters, for example, on T6 is a single winged assassin scary, no...is a pack of 10, kinda...is a pack of 50, yes...is a pack of 100, ogodwhy. Now that might seem weird, because it makes the Grift go faster...everything has more health, everything gives exp/Grift progress based off health.....but what if the Grift progress bar wasnt a static value, but based off the level of Grift you were in. Maybe the required progress is 20% more than previous level lower Grift, but there is also a 20% density increase, as well as the health increase(numbers are hypothetical, obviously would need balancing). Toughness would still matter, because 50% more things doing damage to you is 50% more damage coming in than it would be without a density increase. It would also mean that certain classes that can go without defensive cooldowns/crowd control effects would possibly consider using them, to ease some of the pack damage to a manageable level, while they kill what they can before their crowd control wears off.
I really dont like having to use a Unity ring to survive higher rifts (also have yet to see a single one drop in seasons >.>) but would like to see greater progress, not hitting a brick wall where the only hope of passing it is to get rediculously high paragon levels for the extra Vit/Mainstat given from 800+ paragon, or to perfect gear down to getting a perfect roll on every single randomly generated stat.
They could stop scaling monster damage past T6 and you'd still be limited by time and monster HP while being subject to taking damage on most builds that could kill you. All without 1shot mechanics.
The line for progress shouldn't be "I'm unlucky and got 1shot" it should be "Holy shit I don't have the DPS/speed/coordination to finish this rift in time"
The former is bad design. The latter is a challenge to overcome. IT's not a difficult thing to understand.
Gotcha, but then the end-game is simply you running out of time over and over and never ever dying. Is the end game supposed to be hard in that sense? Because if they don't scale damage, people will adjust their build to the point where they can be "pretty sure" they won't die AT ALL, and that will be where they try to improve from (Because dying is easily the biggest way to lose time). So the highest challenge in the game would still not present a serious risk of death? I don't think that would be preferred.
For example, I rarely die on T6, once I get my Taeguk to 25, I don't imagine I'd have much chance of dying on T6 at all if I'm not being stupid or sloppy (or if I face 3 elite packs at once). Greater Rifts are supposed to get much harder than T6. Increasing mob HP just makes it take longer, once you can fight an elite pack on T6 indefinitely, there is no longer any difficulty added from more HP, just more time to grind down those hps. I don't find that a sufficient 'challenge'.
Now, to be fair, I've seen some good ideas that could definitely be combined with LESS damage scaling, because I do agree that from one GR level to the next, the jump often seems drastic. Such as elite density increasing (that would have to give you less progress-orbs per pack), or even scaling up white mobs by gradually mixing in affixes for them. There are plenty of ideas out there for improvements, but damage scaling should remain part of the package IMO.
Note - even if they made changes as such, I don't think the posts about a particular level being "very very annoying" will ever go away, because this is just people being annoyed by failure. And in an infinitely-scaling difficulty, failure is inevitable.
Let us say that damage scaling in GRifts stopped at T6 damage (or a bit past it if that felt fair). This does not mean that incoming damage is no longer going up, since incoming damage is a function of monster density and types. It does not mean there are not additional secondary damage scaling systems on monsters, because you could add global affixes to GRift levels and that would not represent inclusion of 1shot mechanics. And this would not mean that even without those factors the player would be safe.
And that's because eventually enemy HP will hit a point where you must give up toughness in order to complete a rift in time. Yes you could play indefinitely with no chance of death, but you can already do that in many ways. You just couldn't progress that way.
The best progression will remain players who take risks and give up safety for speed. You just won't innately hit a point where you go from viable to being one shot, you'll have to work there through a spectrum of toughness trades, and you can find ways to get DPS without losing toughness rather than hit a wall where one misstep means death no matter what you do.
The point is that raw damage scaling doesn't need to become 1shot "balance." In fact it's disappointingly bad design coming from an experienced and prestigious company like Blizzard. Like you said there are other options that leave the player in a state of vulnerability, and that should have been the route taken in the first place.
As an aside, I'd like to see items that are available only in GRifts above certain levels. Hell a seasonal class-agnostic armor set that has its pieces drop in 40+ (in 10 level increments) would be a great prestige addition, even if the set itself was transmog-only.
I have DH also and tied some GR rifts and its be far easiest class to play, did 37 btw
what about mellee class who needs to tank all dmg and not hiding behind corner.
You want 2 things if i understand: be max dmg and never die, well choose one
Either get more toughness so jailer wont oneshoot u or get unity so it wont oneshoot u until certain Grift, yes u will loose some dmg.
Just trying to have a discussion man. No QQing. I've explained multiple time what I think is wrong. I'm trying to be as clear as possible without being degrading or inflammatory. Ive explained my views on the difference and how I feel about more defense and less offense. I'm also not trying to make any sort of comparison to any other class. I'm not trying to compare apples to oranges here. It's a discussion and that's all.
If you disagree with me ...that's just fine. Please don't take my thoughts on this as QQ'ing though. If I was doing that there would be a large difference in how I'm structuring my comments.
Unity is an item that disappoints me as well. I can complete greater rift 27 in time, but 28 I'm short by just a few seconds, only because I die 1-2 times. I imagine then that at higher level rifts, dying would happen nearly all the time for me. But then Blizzard comes along and says, "Wait, you can take 50% less damage!" All you need to do is find two Unity rings and a legendary for your follower so they can't die.
I always imagined Unity to be something that a group of players would use, so that four players all using Unity would have a far more even distribution of spiked damage, such that one person standing in the fire is off-loading half of that damage to someone else who isn't. In its current form though, this isn't at all how Unity is used. Instead, Unity is a gimmick that gives a static 50% damage reduction because of another legendary that prevents them from dying.
To put this into perspective, imagine the rune for Call of the Ancients, Together as One, which divides 50% of the damage you take amongst the three ancients. This doesn't work at all in practice, because once you get to levels where that 50% is the difference between you being alive or dead, your ancients are taking so much damage from it that they fall over dead instantly. The only thing stopping your follower from following the same demise is a legendary.
To further put that into perspective, imagine there was another four piece set that, instead of allowing your ancients to stay until they die, it prevented them from dying (while they were out). And with Ring of Royal Grandeur, let's assume you could have both sets active (just as I have both Raekor and IK full set bonuses).
Every Barbarian would be stupid not to run a 50% damage reduction set. It might as well read, "You take 50% less damage from all sources" then, because that's what Unity reads like. And once you reach that wall where you have two options: more damage, or more survivability, the choice is forced on you, because you can't do much damage when you're dead.
I believe this is what OP is getting at Jamoose. It's an artificial barrier. Yes, Greater Rifts aren't supposed to go on forever, but at the same time, putting ONE option into the game that EVERY player has to use to get past a barrier, is poor item implementation and gameplay design. In other words, you can't get an item that increases your damage enough to kill creatures before they kill you, but you can get an item that significantly reduces incoming damage so that you can do the same damage and eventually kill them.
The problem? One of your ring slots isn't interchangeable with anything else, one of your follower's rings is locked in as well, as is their focus/token/relic. What's the point of introducing additional legendary items such as the one that reduces cooldown by 50% of follower skills, if the only people who can use it are those who haven't reached the wall requiring them to use unity+(skeleton key/smoking thurible/enchanting favor)?
They could put out one that says "Your follower dealer 100% more damage" and people would still be stuck using "Your follower cannot die" legendary. At what point does mandatory equipment lose its fun value?
Clearly you have not used unity, theoretically i guess what you say could be correct, reality though. 4 people using unity = 4 dead people. I was the only melee in a 4 man group 3 of us were using unity (we didn't check before we went in) I killed the 2 ranged in seconds. using unity in group play was NEVER its purpose Solo play with invulnerable followers is
I can do 35 rift without unity as melee it's how I got there when I didn't have unity, but now I'm stuck at greater rift 39 with unity, I have yet to finish a lvl 39 greater rift as melee. Greater rift is based on luck at this point where I'm at to go higher in ranks, it's dumb don't really like this system at the moment, I don't like a game where there is infinite difficulty levels, my goal is always to finish all the difficulties of a game, but in Diablo 3 with the greater rifts there is no end to the difficulty and that annoys me right now.
But yeah if you think you have a hard time playing as ranged, please try playing as melee hmmm that electrified... so sweet xD
It's starting to feel like the old inferno vanilla
The problem? One of your ring slots isn't interchangeable with anything else, one of your follower's rings is locked in as well, as is their focus/token/relic. What's the point of introducing additional legendary items such as the one that reduces cooldown by 50% of follower skills, if the only people who can use it are those who haven't reached the wall requiring them to use unity+(skeleton key/smoking thurible/enchanting favor)?
They could put out one that says "Your follower dealer 100% more damage" and people would still be stuck using "Your follower cannot die" legendary. At what point does mandatory equipment lose its fun value?
Uh.."must have items" you're complaining about rings...yet not about sets? There are so many "must haves" in this game for particular slots across all classes. You might as well be complaining about people requiring set items. The problem isn't "item implementation" the problem is that some items are just better than others for different purposes. You say "poor item implementation" I say it's nigh impossible to balance every single item to build set up.
It seems to me that you and the OP are more so complaining about the "mandatory equipment" aspect of greater rifts. Here's the problem you all are seeming to miss: greater rifts are a COMPETITION. Once the best of anything is determined and agreed upon, then that's the pigeon hole creation. Not going to go into detail about the fact that no matter how many new items or skills are introduced, this will always remain the same.
This system, to me, seems pretty clear. Season one was never meant to have a group reach level 100. I doubt season two will have someone reach 100. Season one or s1, is invariably looking like a test run and I'm sure Blizzard has mentioned something about it being their first way to analyze the difference(s) between the classes, which, no doubt, is also another way to see what to change for the next season. Why does everyone expect to be able to complete the greater rift 100 when it required some pretty obscene and ridiculous tactics to beat it while the patch was being tested? Did you all not see the amount of health normal mobs had? It wasn't even being displayed properly and I bet, it still isn't. Like I said, I don't think Blizzard intends for everyone to reach 100. I'd be surprised if anyone made it past 60.
Clearly you have not used unity, theoretically i guess what you say could be correct, reality though. 4 people using unity = 4 dead people. I was the only melee in a 4 man group 3 of us were using unity (we didn't check before we went in) I killed the 2 ranged in seconds. using unity in group play was NEVER its purpose Solo play with invulnerable followers is
I'll go out on a limb here and state that you aren't a developer of Diablo 3, so you can't make such statements that an item was designed for this type of play and not another type of play. It is definitely true that Blizzard has supported the use of Unity on Followers, specifically by saying that it is working as intended and that it's a creative use of mechanics. However, it would be foolish to say that Blizzard didn't implement Unity with the idea that two (or more) players could also use the item. Some classes take far less damage than others or have abilities that can mitigate damage easier. Blizzard has always advertised Diablo 3 as a multiplayer game first, but supported solo play.
I really don't feel that I'm complaining about anything. Rather I am making observations regarding the structure of the game. I'm not a very competitive person myself. I'm not participating in Seasons, and I have no illusions of even making the top 1000 for my class in greater rifts. I just enjoy my own time playing Diablo 3. I usually do a rift, normal or greater, and maybe switch to Hearthstone, and back again. And I agree, sets are definitely required. I run full Immortal King and Raekor with Ring of Grandeur.
I actually like the leaderboards and it makes me wanna go hard.....such a shame that my build and skill have little reason for my advancement up this board.....IMO if u get lucky and get a good open grift with certain monsters then u are a show.
There have been occasions where i have smashed it and ran out of time and its so frustrating to play so well and have no reward.IMO the Grfts should be chocker block with elites and as hard as possible and if u make ur way through then u should be stoked and well rewarded and the game is hella fun when u have elites everywhere bombing u with walls and freeze and ur dodging and weaving and returning fire......its AWESOME.
But trundling up a windy map,,,with bugger all monsters and watching ur time tick away is just evil.
And why is there barely any junk on the ground in grifts thus rendering Harringtons useless.....man i would love to wear it but you just cant.
Clearly you have not used unity, theoretically i guess what you say could be correct, reality though. 4 people using unity = 4 dead people. I was the only melee in a 4 man group 3 of us were using unity (we didn't check before we went in) I killed the 2 ranged in seconds. using unity in group play was NEVER its purpose Solo play with invulnerable followers is
I'll go out on a limb here and state that you aren't a developer of Diablo 3, so you can't make such statements that an item was designed for this type of play and not another type of play. It is definitely true that Blizzard has supported the use of Unity on Followers, specifically by saying that it is working as intended and that it's a creative use of mechanics. However, it would be foolish to say that Blizzard didn't implement Unity with the idea that two (or more) players could also use the item. Some classes take far less damage than others or have abilities that can mitigate damage easier. Blizzard has always advertised Diablo 3 as a multiplayer game first, but supported solo play.
Sorry for the late reply only just caught that someone had replied, like i said there were 3 of us wearing the ring 2 ranged 1 melee. if ranged are taking more damage than melee they are doing something wrong, so lets mix it up a little lets add melee into the mix, chances are more melee characters would be taking just as much damage as the other melee characters at best the ring will cancel itself out so that is pointless, but like i said AT BEST. the problem now here is theoretical mechanics. i take damage 50% of that feeds to someone else, but hang on now they have taken damage from me, feeding back to me another 25% of my original damage back to me, in turn i bounce it back to them, this is why followers don't take damage with that invulnerable relic/focus/token
oh and http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/11890059972#13 you said so yourself, as "intended" perhaps you don't quite know what "intended" means, i take it meaning using it for anything other than a follower is as you say "creative use of mechanics"
Rift levels should have a fixed map, it's one level and it's the same for everyone*.
(*) ofcourse every different level has a different fixed map (I mean greater rift level x).
Rift levels should have the same amount of normal mobs, elite mobs and bosses.*
(*) the only variation should be which affixes you get (immunity shielding and ghosts need to be removed).
Rift levels should also not have any form of pylons in them because it just makes 0 sense.
Solo play should come without followers, followers just do too much imo.
Also unity and similar items should be disabled in greater rifts.
Too many players are getting carried by this legendary and it's sad.
I guess opinions are different. The picture you paint would be insanely boring. If every rift was the same, it would be like the Alkaizer run or Keep Depth runs, just more difficult. You would optimize your spec based on the map and the mob types, everything would be predictable and it'd be insanely boring if you always had the same GR layout and density.
The RNG is too much at this point, but I actually think that very slight adjustments (make zombies give less progress as they're too easy, make Stonesinger a bit harder by doubling his HP or so, let Saxtris spawn less adds below 50%) and the removal of Conduit Pylons would be enough to reduce the RNG such that it's acceptable. I'm completely against making everything the same, it defies the concept of rifts.
If you'd remove followers and Unity, solo play would be impossible and you could just subtract 3-5 GR levels from everyone on the solo leaderboards. Even with those benefits, groups are still performing better than single players - therefore Unity and followers are not a problem. They are a necessity to make solo play viable and diverse enough (certain builds are impossible without a follower).
I'm going to shoot for GR 40 this weekend using the unity trick. I just want to say that I could do it. I'll hope that Blizz changes the scaling of the damage in the future so progression is still possible without getting 1 shot every 30 seconds.
I couldn't agree more. The scaling is just out of hands as off right now. I can't even imagine anyone solo reaching GR 50 in this game. And if they can, it's only half of the way done, lol. With the amount of damage we receive at GR 40+ it sounds more like how a GR 80+ should be or something.
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In short, how else do you recommend that they kill you to stop your progress? Because that's what has to happen. If they just add more hps to slow things down so you run out of time, it is natural to adjust away from surviveability and add damage until A) You can pass the challenge, or B ) You start dying, which the point at which everyone tries to stay just shy of.
However I would much prefer it based on a skill perspective somehow. Honestly I don't know what the solution is, however the system that's currently in place, while it "works" to a point it's fundamentally flawed in my opinion. What's the point of having a pinnacle if no one can reach it. Like someone said earlier at GR 40+ you potentially have mobs that will kill you from off the screen. There in no skill in that it's all luck based.
You get one-shot because you're trying to ride the line of "How much damage can I possibly do". Because of that, there is no possible way they can make you NOT on the verge of getting one-shot, because you'll just lower your survivability for more damage until you're right back at the edge.
In short, you can change your build to be FAR more defensive, and you will not get one-shot any more. You WILL run out of time, because you need to ride the edge to get as far as you are now, but that's a choice you're making. You are CHOOSING to be on the verge of being one-shot, you don't have to, you just won't get as far. That's the limit of where skill can take you - to where you die from bad luck because there's nothing left to improve. And that point has to exist.
The line for progress shouldn't be "I'm unlucky and got 1shot" it should be "Holy shit I don't have the DPS/speed/coordination to finish this rift in time"
The former is bad design. The latter is a challenge to overcome. IT's not a difficult thing to understand.
For example, I rarely die on T6, once I get my Taeguk to 25, I don't imagine I'd have much chance of dying on T6 at all if I'm not being stupid or sloppy (or if I face 3 elite packs at once). Greater Rifts are supposed to get much harder than T6. Increasing mob HP just makes it take longer, once you can fight an elite pack on T6 indefinitely, there is no longer any difficulty added from more HP, just more time to grind down those hps. I don't find that a sufficient 'challenge'.
Now, to be fair, I've seen some good ideas that could definitely be combined with LESS damage scaling, because I do agree that from one GR level to the next, the jump often seems drastic. Such as elite density increasing (that would have to give you less progress-orbs per pack), or even scaling up white mobs by gradually mixing in affixes for them. There are plenty of ideas out there for improvements, but damage scaling should remain part of the package IMO.
Note - even if they made changes as such, I don't think the posts about a particular level being "very very annoying" will ever go away, because this is just people being annoyed by failure. And in an infinitely-scaling difficulty, failure is inevitable.
So I think the upper limit right now is GR 42? ish...I don't know for certain. Should we all just be happy at getting to that level? Is that the intent? is that considered the end game and now that your there we should feel like we have accomplished the goal?
I don't think any amount of gear that you can obtain in the game at this point would allow even the most skilled player beyond GR 42? Is that a fair statement? and lets say I'm off by a few GR levels, I personally still want to progress though some means on my character (I want to get more powerful) but again we have hit this imaginary wall that no one can climb because of the current way the mechanics are implemented in the game.
One way they sold greater rifts was a way to continually upgrade your character and get more powerful, but the way it has been implemented you will never get too GR 100, for the sake of putting a number out there, because there is no path offensive or defensive that will allow you to climb that high.
Again I'm still going to have fun playing this game, and all my posting isn't about my hating it or anything like that... I really really enjoy the game. I'm just trying to explain what I think is wrong with it.
Thank you too all for posting your thoughts.
1: What we currently have: My most hated monster is winged assassins, they jump off of screen, using a vortex (which interrupts most other creatures attack animations) still causes their jumps to do damage. Pulling in a large pack of them means I killed myself. If i let them all jump by themselves, they all jump with enough time between that i can possibly kill one or two, while also utilizing life on hit/ life per resource spent/ life per second/ life per kill. When it gets to a certain Grift level, i can still kill one or two of them....but it takes 1/10 the number of them to kill me before my health regen fails to do enough. At higher levels, a big pack of little monsters is like "yes, im gonna get some progress with no threat to my life at all, woot!"
2: What i think we should have: I agree with people saying that monster damage should stay at a flat rate, possibly T6, more likely i would like to see it maybe at a level that is around T7/8 equivalent. I think that we should see larger packs of monsters, for example, on T6 is a single winged assassin scary, no...is a pack of 10, kinda...is a pack of 50, yes...is a pack of 100, ogodwhy. Now that might seem weird, because it makes the Grift go faster...everything has more health, everything gives exp/Grift progress based off health.....but what if the Grift progress bar wasnt a static value, but based off the level of Grift you were in. Maybe the required progress is 20% more than previous level lower Grift, but there is also a 20% density increase, as well as the health increase(numbers are hypothetical, obviously would need balancing). Toughness would still matter, because 50% more things doing damage to you is 50% more damage coming in than it would be without a density increase. It would also mean that certain classes that can go without defensive cooldowns/crowd control effects would possibly consider using them, to ease some of the pack damage to a manageable level, while they kill what they can before their crowd control wears off.
I really dont like having to use a Unity ring to survive higher rifts (also have yet to see a single one drop in seasons >.>) but would like to see greater progress, not hitting a brick wall where the only hope of passing it is to get rediculously high paragon levels for the extra Vit/Mainstat given from 800+ paragon, or to perfect gear down to getting a perfect roll on every single randomly generated stat.
And that's because eventually enemy HP will hit a point where you must give up toughness in order to complete a rift in time. Yes you could play indefinitely with no chance of death, but you can already do that in many ways. You just couldn't progress that way.
The best progression will remain players who take risks and give up safety for speed. You just won't innately hit a point where you go from viable to being one shot, you'll have to work there through a spectrum of toughness trades, and you can find ways to get DPS without losing toughness rather than hit a wall where one misstep means death no matter what you do.
The point is that raw damage scaling doesn't need to become 1shot "balance." In fact it's disappointingly bad design coming from an experienced and prestigious company like Blizzard. Like you said there are other options that leave the player in a state of vulnerability, and that should have been the route taken in the first place.
As an aside, I'd like to see items that are available only in GRifts above certain levels. Hell a seasonal class-agnostic armor set that has its pieces drop in 40+ (in 10 level increments) would be a great prestige addition, even if the set itself was transmog-only.
If you disagree with me ...that's just fine. Please don't take my thoughts on this as QQ'ing though. If I was doing that there would be a large difference in how I'm structuring my comments.
But yeah if you think you have a hard time playing as ranged, please try playing as melee hmmm that electrified... so sweet xD
It's starting to feel like the old inferno vanilla
It seems to me that you and the OP are more so complaining about the "mandatory equipment" aspect of greater rifts. Here's the problem you all are seeming to miss: greater rifts are a COMPETITION. Once the best of anything is determined and agreed upon, then that's the pigeon hole creation. Not going to go into detail about the fact that no matter how many new items or skills are introduced, this will always remain the same.
This system, to me, seems pretty clear. Season one was never meant to have a group reach level 100. I doubt season two will have someone reach 100. Season one or s1, is invariably looking like a test run and I'm sure Blizzard has mentioned something about it being their first way to analyze the difference(s) between the classes, which, no doubt, is also another way to see what to change for the next season. Why does everyone expect to be able to complete the greater rift 100 when it required some pretty obscene and ridiculous tactics to beat it while the patch was being tested? Did you all not see the amount of health normal mobs had? It wasn't even being displayed properly and I bet, it still isn't. Like I said, I don't think Blizzard intends for everyone to reach 100. I'd be surprised if anyone made it past 60.
I really don't feel that I'm complaining about anything. Rather I am making observations regarding the structure of the game. I'm not a very competitive person myself. I'm not participating in Seasons, and I have no illusions of even making the top 1000 for my class in greater rifts. I just enjoy my own time playing Diablo 3. I usually do a rift, normal or greater, and maybe switch to Hearthstone, and back again. And I agree, sets are definitely required. I run full Immortal King and Raekor with Ring of Grandeur.
There have been occasions where i have smashed it and ran out of time and its so frustrating to play so well and have no reward.IMO the Grfts should be chocker block with elites and as hard as possible and if u make ur way through then u should be stoked and well rewarded and the game is hella fun when u have elites everywhere bombing u with walls and freeze and ur dodging and weaving and returning fire......its AWESOME.
But trundling up a windy map,,,with bugger all monsters and watching ur time tick away is just evil.
And why is there barely any junk on the ground in grifts thus rendering Harringtons useless.....man i would love to wear it but you just cant.
oh and http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/11890059972#13 you said so yourself, as "intended" perhaps you don't quite know what "intended" means, i take it meaning using it for anything other than a follower is as you say "creative use of mechanics"
The RNG is too much at this point, but I actually think that very slight adjustments (make zombies give less progress as they're too easy, make Stonesinger a bit harder by doubling his HP or so, let Saxtris spawn less adds below 50%) and the removal of Conduit Pylons would be enough to reduce the RNG such that it's acceptable. I'm completely against making everything the same, it defies the concept of rifts.
If you'd remove followers and Unity, solo play would be impossible and you could just subtract 3-5 GR levels from everyone on the solo leaderboards. Even with those benefits, groups are still performing better than single players - therefore Unity and followers are not a problem. They are a necessity to make solo play viable and diverse enough (certain builds are impossible without a follower).