Actually it was like that at release and Inferno A2+. And it was hard. People like you, who think the content is 'hard' and 'harsh' now never ever get beyond Inferno A1 while people like Kripp were killing Diablo on inferno, on hardcore.
But people like you whined so much that Blizz nerfed the hell out of Diablo and made it casual-fest it is right now.
The game was 'designed' to be hard.
"People like me"
You don't know jack about what I was doing at release. I did higher acts of inferno before it was nerfed. I just happen to understand principles of design that are apparently going over your head. One shots do not make a game hard. Need for grinding do not make a game hard.
Need for strategy and awareness. For mechanical skill. For synergy of skill and item choices. Those make a game hard. Making usability changes does not diminish that. I provide a perfectly reaosnable point of feedback (it should be easy to keep a coordinated team together farming keys) and you respond with "why not just make it so you trade rares"
My point was in no way a change to the difficulty of getting the item. No way a change in the number of hellfires you'll roll before you get the one you need. And since that number is higher than "1" it's no real change in the time taken to get the thing either. All I said was "make the RNG shared instead of separate". And you act like that's the breakdown of all difficulty, like it's a whining casual who just wants the amulet NOW and doesn't want to work for it.
Because that's what you want to see. You want to be a special snowflake at GRift 100 so you can feel superior.
Here's a hint: I play D3 every hour I'm not working or doing classwork. I'm nowhere CLOSE to a casual. I put in time and effort and research. And I happen to have the experience in system design to know the difference between a reasonable change with no appreciable impact on players "like me" putting in 8+ hours a day, and players who can only afford an hour or two. Because I've been in both places, I've got experience as that guy who can only put in a rift every couple days and also as that guy putting in 14 hours a day for weeks at a time.
If you can't recognize the difference between making something that needs to be attainable at a consistent rate possible to do so, and completely gutting any effort required to get that something that's your problem and has nothing to do with casual whining.
Keys should be partywide like trials.
RoRG and other targetable staples for progression that happen to be BiS for damn near everyone should be attainable as a staple.
It's Blizz's fault they missed the right benchmark, but I'm not going to complain because I'm still putting in 8+ hours a day looking for my FotF and Ramaldni's.
Min/maxing does not matter when applied to items that are used only to switch-get-buff-switch-back
Anyway, now imagine that you get this items and min/maxed them in ~~2 weeks thanks to the buff. You get yourself another goal and after 1 day of playing Blizz nerf the hell out of it and hand it to you on a silver plate.
Blizzard seems to be blind that those kind of "way of dealing things" works only for a moment. The people who does not want to commit and 'farm' will play for week or two and be gone until next ridiculous buff happens. This is unbelievable short-mind trouble-fix for company as big as Blizzard.
They fixed an issue with RNG in the ladder. That issue was "Found RoRG? Have fin in GRift 30+, don't have it? Keep looking"
They were heavy handed. That happens.
But the only people getting things on a "silver platter" are people "like me" who are playing so much per day they have the gear already.
Well then, they should fix the Unity as well. Unity is the ring that grands you 50% damage reduction and it is almost must-have for most classes and builds (just like RoRG).
And they have to fix mercenery immortal tokens, and they need to give us the amulets that gives invulnerability for each damage type. Man they have to fix* so many things that are required to have fun on Grift30+....
*give us them for free
Fun fact: Unity isn't BiS for every 30+ GRift build. In fact SoJ+RoRG beats pretty much every other ring combination thanks to the raw power of sets, and the need for DPS. Sure it's damn near BiS for solo, but only solo.
Fun Fact #2: Parties are better for higher GRift levels.
Fun Fact #3: Nobody is being given anything for free. On top of needing the gear to do T6 for that guaranteed legend (at which point if you're still doing caches it's because you've had terrible luck and NEED that RoRG as the next step in your build), you also aren't even CLOSE to guaranteed the legend you want.
Taking "making the game smoother" to "crazy stupidland" doesn't make any kind of point. Absolutely nothing has changed for dedicated players.The stuff you're looking for to min-max your builds is just as rare and time consuming to get as it always was, and that's not going to change.
Obviously we should force all legends to roll level 1 stats, because my friend pulled a literally perfect SoJ within hours of hitting 70. Obviously that's too easy, obviously that SoJ should be level 1 because it was so easy to get.
Doesn't matter. New items will be introduced, rorg will not be the one and only ring forever. Also, it's almost always like that where content is hard and it becomes easier as time passes and more patches are released. How is it better game design to have people farm 2k bounties to get 1 crappy ring? Why waste so much time on shit when there are other activities that can promote a much more thought provoking gameplay like coop on high GR or trying to maximize effeciency on T6 rifts or whatever.
Again, just like every other change blizzard makes, some self entitled elitists will bitch and whine with the usual "gj blizz" and "thanks blizz".... I've had enough with this bullshit. Sure it's easy to get a rorg now but after what? People who farmed like crazy and got a good rorg a while back actually profited from it because it enabled them to clear more content. Now it's easier to get for all those people who didn't have the chance to get it. Oh no they are nerfing the game! Well if you did not notice, D3 is not exactly hard anyway... Just requires some time spent and some luck. Sure d3v inferno was hard at the beginning but for how long exactly? Like a month or two... Stop clinging to that period of time like it's the old testament or something... I'll remind you that when d3v was released, the same self entitled brats where whinning that the game is crap and now when theyreminisce with a sense of nostalgia it all seems like fun and games to them... Give me a break.
Surely one thing that was keeping me off Seasons (something that i would have done sooner or later) was this bloody ring. Let's face it, the whole build meta revolves around the RoRG and i was lucky to get multiple ones before this buff, but i think i had my share of pain and "satisfaction" (if we can talk about being satisfied on the luck of the draw). Now i can be a bit more laid back if i restart a new char.
I think the problem isn't that bounties are finally worth something, but that this ring exists. It's just too strong to pass and it's BiS for every top build in existance so the choice of this particular slot is null.
This whole buff simply reminded me that the Ring of Royal Grandeur is THE prime example of bad game design. In my opinion there shouldn't exist any items that are absolutely mandatory for each class regardless of the build. In fact I find it insulting that I have to get this ring in order to achieve higher Greater Rifts.
I'll end up with that Ring eventually, but I really do hope that Blizzard will delete this horribly designed item from the game at some point.
As far as the topic goes, I think that 100% chance on T6 is overkill. The chance-to-difficulty curve should be much more flat. I'd say that 25% chance on T1 and 50% chance on T6 would be fine + disable legendary cache drops below Torment 1.
They won't be able to delete it. The best they can do is to introduce something like the weapon socket item to make it obsolete.
How is it better game design to have people farm 2k bounties to get 1 crappy ring?
It's not. It's just more rose-tinted nostalgia circlejerking, to put it bluntly.
Having to farm hundreds, and thousands, of bounties just to get one ring, and have that ring subject to RNG, doesn't work with seasons. There was already pretty big backlash about that very fact on Reddit. People saying that RoRG was going to keep them from playing multiple classes in a season because it's just not enjoyable to have to farm like that.
Let's be honest here. Even on T6, even with this buff, you're still getting fewer legendaries/hour doing bounties than doing rifts. But, unlike before, your time doing bounties isn't completely wasted.
And, while we're being honest, let's remember that on T6 you're getting one legendary per cache. You are not getting one RoRG per cache. I did three A1 bounty sets last night. I got two RoRGs, one Mad Monarch's Scepter. Both RoRGs were bad. I don't see the problem there. I've only ever received one "good" RoRG and it had the wrong primary stat, meaning it really wasn't even "good" for the character I was currently playing. What fun is that? How nostalgic does someone have to be to think that was enjoyable?
All they have to do is fix split farming and I think this solution is spot-on, especially considering seasons.
In order for the current RoRG to lose it's BiS status they would have to either:
- introduce something even more ridiculously powerful = replacing a bad idea with a worse idea
- retroactively change the RoRG to make it desirable instead of mandatory = much hate from community.
I wonder if Blizzard sees the mandatory state of RoRG as an issue at all...
They have to introduce something new it doesn't have to be even more ridiculously powerful just new items or set pieces that can provide a character with something as good or just better than the rorg... My point is that when the next expansion comes out they will probably just make all the lvl 70 gear obsolete anyway... Might as well just enjoy it i guess...
Good change. Think of all the time wasted doing the same A1 bounties over and over just so you could make a build work. Great change, anyone who says otherwise is a masochist and/or a dummy.
After doing 500+ A1 bounties and still no RoRG I can say that I'm VERY happy with this change!!! I gave up on bounties because farming for this ring made me hate the game, I took a couple months off because of it.
I guess it's ironic that people will now be gifted a RoRG much more quickly than they can possibly acquire the set pieces needed to make it useful. :-)
This whole buff simply reminded me that the Ring of Royal Grandeur is THE prime example of bad game design. In my opinion there shouldn't exist any items that are absolutely mandatory for each class regardless of the build. In fact I find it insulting that I have to get this ring in order to achieve higher Greater Rifts.
I'll end up with that Ring eventually, but I really do hope that Blizzard will delete this horribly designed item from the game at some point.
As far as the topic goes, I think that 100% chance on T6 is overkill. The chance-to-difficulty curve should be much more flat. I'd say that 25% chance on T1 and 50% chance on T6 would be fine + disable legendary cache drops below Torment 1.
Well said.
The topic title epitomizes it. That to me eclipses the issue of the drop buff because it only exacerbates the true issue of an indispensable item. The title wasn't "Mad Monarch/Leoric's Gorget drop buff" after all. It's scary to think where to go from here. I would fervently abhor its removal as I am a slow plodsome player with limited skills that wouldn't be able to run T6 otherwise. Change it? Introduce something greater? Options that are potentially just as dramatic and damaging... I'll think about it.
Regarding the actual buff. This in my opinion would make a great time limited buff. As of now I think they swung for the fences and now they are off searching for the ball. Hopefully they'll take another look at this and move on from there.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"We", "Everyone" - Argumentum ad populum. "You people" - Argumentum ad hominem. "Your dumb" - Contractionem absum.
They have to introduce something new it doesn't have to be even more ridiculously powerful just new items or set pieces that can provide a character with something as good or just better than the rorg... My point is that when the next expansion comes out they will probably just make all the lvl 70 gear obsolete anyway... Might as well just enjoy it i guess...
True, next expansion = lvl80 gear and such, but that isn't the point. The point is that being somewhat forced to farm RoRG on each new character in every future season until we get the next expansion (regardless of how easy it is) is highly undesirable. Blizzard made some steps to enrich build and item diversity, but the addition of RoRG in 2.0 is simply a backward step.
I would VERY MUCH like to see the next expansion just bring us straight to 100, and have future expansions take the BL2 route and add "overlevels" or some such.
I don't think adding levels per expansion is good design. It results in retarded damage scaling. We're already gaining ten-fold damage every ten levels, by the time we hit level 100 we'll be doing tens of billions of damage per hit. The whole system needs to be reconstructed from the ground up to be more linear in base.
The point is that being somewhat forced to farm RoRG on each new character in every future season until we get the next expansion (regardless of how easy it is) is highly undesirable.
I'd like to emphasize that this situation is far less horrible with the new drop rates as compared to the old drop rates.
The old drop rates were a MASSIVE deterrent to playing seasons. Seriously, with the old drop rates who really would want to farm up a RoRG once per X months? Even if X is 12, that doesn't sound anywhere close to fun for me. It's very similar to why most people aren't even touching Ubers. There are simply too many layers of RNG.
Did the keys drop to make the IMs?
Did the organs drop to make the ring/neck?
Did the ring/neck roll well?
Did you get a legendary from the cache?
Was it a ring?
Did it roll well?
That kind of RNG clusterfuck is completely counterproductive in seasons. The game is based on RNG, surely. But there's just too many RNG walls to slam into for those two systems, in particular, to be engaging and enjoyable when repeated every X months. Think about the Hellfire Ring/Amulet. Even if they made the keys and organs 100% drop rate on T6 there would still be a ton of RNG in terms of how the items are rolled.
The RNG most people are used to conquering in these games are:
1) Rarity (like Starmetal Kukiri, Wand of Woh, or Enigma); and,
2) Quality of stat rolls
Once you lump in that third layer of RNG it becomes rather punitive and unbearable for most players. Having high drop rates for non-rift activities tends to make up for the otherwise-horrible legendary drop rates outside of rifts, so I'm OK with it. Split bounties are still a total exploit as far as I'm concerned, but there really does need to be a reason to do things other than rifts. This, at least partially, addresses that by making cache-only items not seem like an impossible task unless you have three other people split farming with you. They need to similarly address Ubers.
When we're not doing rifts we're sacrificing drops. Therefore the items we're trying to target MUST be more-accessible to counterbalance that. Risk vs. reward. It's important.
once again.. the collective qq of the masses has nerfed an aspect of the game.
first it was inferno mode, then both ahs, then legendary drops, then legendary drops in cache.
this almost feels like every other wow expansion after vanilla...... wow 2.0 social experiment and beyond: The catering to the casuals
This is nothing like this, RORG is actually a mistake from the begining. Its literally required for every build but pet doctor. Its stupid to have a single mandatory item for all classes/builds. People wasted huge amounts of time to farm a single item that only drop from a single source. They had 2 options, delete it or make it easy to get. The easy way was to make it easier to get since with almost any hero youll make you need the ring.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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"People like me"
You don't know jack about what I was doing at release. I did higher acts of inferno before it was nerfed. I just happen to understand principles of design that are apparently going over your head. One shots do not make a game hard. Need for grinding do not make a game hard.
Need for strategy and awareness. For mechanical skill. For synergy of skill and item choices. Those make a game hard. Making usability changes does not diminish that. I provide a perfectly reaosnable point of feedback (it should be easy to keep a coordinated team together farming keys) and you respond with "why not just make it so you trade rares"
My point was in no way a change to the difficulty of getting the item. No way a change in the number of hellfires you'll roll before you get the one you need. And since that number is higher than "1" it's no real change in the time taken to get the thing either. All I said was "make the RNG shared instead of separate". And you act like that's the breakdown of all difficulty, like it's a whining casual who just wants the amulet NOW and doesn't want to work for it.
Because that's what you want to see. You want to be a special snowflake at GRift 100 so you can feel superior.
Here's a hint: I play D3 every hour I'm not working or doing classwork. I'm nowhere CLOSE to a casual. I put in time and effort and research. And I happen to have the experience in system design to know the difference between a reasonable change with no appreciable impact on players "like me" putting in 8+ hours a day, and players who can only afford an hour or two. Because I've been in both places, I've got experience as that guy who can only put in a rift every couple days and also as that guy putting in 14 hours a day for weeks at a time.
If you can't recognize the difference between making something that needs to be attainable at a consistent rate possible to do so, and completely gutting any effort required to get that something that's your problem and has nothing to do with casual whining.
Keys should be partywide like trials.
RoRG and other targetable staples for progression that happen to be BiS for damn near everyone should be attainable as a staple.
It's Blizz's fault they missed the right benchmark, but I'm not going to complain because I'm still putting in 8+ hours a day looking for my FotF and Ramaldni's.
They were heavy handed. That happens.
But the only people getting things on a "silver platter" are people "like me" who are playing so much per day they have the gear already.
Fun Fact #2: Parties are better for higher GRift levels.
Fun Fact #3: Nobody is being given anything for free. On top of needing the gear to do T6 for that guaranteed legend (at which point if you're still doing caches it's because you've had terrible luck and NEED that RoRG as the next step in your build), you also aren't even CLOSE to guaranteed the legend you want.
Taking "making the game smoother" to "crazy stupidland" doesn't make any kind of point. Absolutely nothing has changed for dedicated players.The stuff you're looking for to min-max your builds is just as rare and time consuming to get as it always was, and that's not going to change.
Obviously we should force all legends to roll level 1 stats, because my friend pulled a literally perfect SoJ within hours of hitting 70. Obviously that's too easy, obviously that SoJ should be level 1 because it was so easy to get.
Again, just like every other change blizzard makes, some self entitled elitists will bitch and whine with the usual "gj blizz" and "thanks blizz".... I've had enough with this bullshit. Sure it's easy to get a rorg now but after what? People who farmed like crazy and got a good rorg a while back actually profited from it because it enabled them to clear more content. Now it's easier to get for all those people who didn't have the chance to get it. Oh no they are nerfing the game! Well if you did not notice, D3 is not exactly hard anyway... Just requires some time spent and some luck. Sure d3v inferno was hard at the beginning but for how long exactly? Like a month or two... Stop clinging to that period of time like it's the old testament or something... I'll remind you that when d3v was released, the same self entitled brats where whinning that the game is crap and now when theyreminisce with a sense of nostalgia it all seems like fun and games to them... Give me a break.
I think the problem isn't that bounties are finally worth something, but that this ring exists. It's just too strong to pass and it's BiS for every top build in existance so the choice of this particular slot is null.
They won't be able to delete it. The best they can do is to introduce something like the weapon socket item to make it obsolete.
Having to farm hundreds, and thousands, of bounties just to get one ring, and have that ring subject to RNG, doesn't work with seasons. There was already pretty big backlash about that very fact on Reddit. People saying that RoRG was going to keep them from playing multiple classes in a season because it's just not enjoyable to have to farm like that.
Let's be honest here. Even on T6, even with this buff, you're still getting fewer legendaries/hour doing bounties than doing rifts. But, unlike before, your time doing bounties isn't completely wasted.
And, while we're being honest, let's remember that on T6 you're getting one legendary per cache. You are not getting one RoRG per cache. I did three A1 bounty sets last night. I got two RoRGs, one Mad Monarch's Scepter. Both RoRGs were bad. I don't see the problem there. I've only ever received one "good" RoRG and it had the wrong primary stat, meaning it really wasn't even "good" for the character I was currently playing. What fun is that? How nostalgic does someone have to be to think that was enjoyable?
All they have to do is fix split farming and I think this solution is spot-on, especially considering seasons.
WD Season 8 https://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/Kildare/84509816
Monk season 7 http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/MojoJoJo/42225505
DH season 6 http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/DeadShot/75655606
Angry Chicken http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/WhoDoVooDoo/68187610
What? Me worry?
Now I wish they'd just make Vault portals eligible to be opened within rifts, and we're all good.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Spiral-1401/hero/65250518
The topic title epitomizes it. That to me eclipses the issue of the drop buff because it only exacerbates the true issue of an indispensable item. The title wasn't "Mad Monarch/Leoric's Gorget drop buff" after all. It's scary to think where to go from here. I would fervently abhor its removal as I am a slow plodsome player with limited skills that wouldn't be able to run T6 otherwise. Change it? Introduce something greater? Options that are potentially just as dramatic and damaging... I'll think about it.
Regarding the actual buff. This in my opinion would make a great time limited buff. As of now I think they swung for the fences and now they are off searching for the ball. Hopefully they'll take another look at this and move on from there.
"We", "Everyone" - Argumentum ad populum. "You people" - Argumentum ad hominem. "Your dumb" - Contractionem absum.
I don't think adding levels per expansion is good design. It results in retarded damage scaling. We're already gaining ten-fold damage every ten levels, by the time we hit level 100 we'll be doing tens of billions of damage per hit. The whole system needs to be reconstructed from the ground up to be more linear in base.
The old drop rates were a MASSIVE deterrent to playing seasons. Seriously, with the old drop rates who really would want to farm up a RoRG once per X months? Even if X is 12, that doesn't sound anywhere close to fun for me. It's very similar to why most people aren't even touching Ubers. There are simply too many layers of RNG.
Did the keys drop to make the IMs?
Did the organs drop to make the ring/neck?
Did the ring/neck roll well?
Did you get a legendary from the cache?
Was it a ring?
Did it roll well?
That kind of RNG clusterfuck is completely counterproductive in seasons. The game is based on RNG, surely. But there's just too many RNG walls to slam into for those two systems, in particular, to be engaging and enjoyable when repeated every X months. Think about the Hellfire Ring/Amulet. Even if they made the keys and organs 100% drop rate on T6 there would still be a ton of RNG in terms of how the items are rolled.
The RNG most people are used to conquering in these games are:
1) Rarity (like Starmetal Kukiri, Wand of Woh, or Enigma); and,
2) Quality of stat rolls
Once you lump in that third layer of RNG it becomes rather punitive and unbearable for most players. Having high drop rates for non-rift activities tends to make up for the otherwise-horrible legendary drop rates outside of rifts, so I'm OK with it. Split bounties are still a total exploit as far as I'm concerned, but there really does need to be a reason to do things other than rifts. This, at least partially, addresses that by making cache-only items not seem like an impossible task unless you have three other people split farming with you. They need to similarly address Ubers.
When we're not doing rifts we're sacrificing drops. Therefore the items we're trying to target MUST be more-accessible to counterbalance that. Risk vs. reward. It's important.
first it was inferno mode, then both ahs, then legendary drops, then legendary drops in cache.
this almost feels like every other wow expansion after vanilla...... wow 2.0 social experiment and beyond: The catering to the casuals
This is nothing like this, RORG is actually a mistake from the begining. Its literally required for every build but pet doctor. Its stupid to have a single mandatory item for all classes/builds. People wasted huge amounts of time to farm a single item that only drop from a single source. They had 2 options, delete it or make it easy to get. The easy way was to make it easier to get since with almost any hero youll make you need the ring.