The point I was trying to make was that in Diablo 2 you would start off weak but would quickly progress. You felt frail early on but as you gained power you felt like a total badass. In Diablo 3, you start off with VERY strong skills. You're able to destroy monsters even in expert difficulity sometimes, every skill's effect looks powerful. You don't get as much of an increase in power as you did in Diablo 2. In diablo 2 the over tthe top spells like blizzard and meteor were rewarded to you later on. It was far more clear that you were gaining power. Even if the tuning was off.
I disagree. In both games, D2 and D3, you had basically access to all spells fairly soon in the leveling process. Of course, it's about synergies and items with +skills (D2) or items (D3) to make these skills stronger. But here's the thing where D3 is even better: in D2, you'd level up your character and search for better +skill level charms to make your Blizzard hit for higher numbers. In D3, you can get the same - if not even a higher range: a casual who just hit 70 will hit for a few hundred thousand and rarely see millions; a fully geared Jade WD will see crits for billions. The amount of power you gain is insane. Upgrades on T6 geared characters are rare, but they add up once you get them. Even more so, in D2 playing a level 80 character or playing a level 95 character wasn't that much of a difference as playing a T1 character compared to a T6 character, although I would say that's about equal in terms of progress.
What's even better in D3 is that when getting new items the skill's mechanics change drastically. This somewhat is related to what you said here:
On a side note items in Diablo 2 had more affixes to them that feel rewarding. It takes a legendary item now to give you a chance to proc posiion nova whenever you attack. Whereas it took a rare or even magic item back in diablo 2. Legendary items are the only items that have intresting and rewarding affixes. The items in Diablo 2 built upon your characters choices.
On that we just disagree. The most commonly mentioned example is the strength melee sorceress or similar niche builds - yeah, not really. Most people ended up playing the FotM (or rather FotSeasons/FotPatch/FotYear) builds like Blizzard sorc or Hammerdin or whatever, as those ensured getting to the top. In D3, when you finish your Marauder set the DH almost becomes an entirely different class in terms of playstyle. If you use the Hexing Pants your movement will obviously be completely different. I really disagree with that argument that affixes in D2 where anywhere better than they are in D3. After all, affixes in D2 were as bad as in D3V: in D2 it was just about getting +skill level, in D3V it was just about trifecta stats. In RoS you have at least a few choices on some slots.
Yeah, D3 is not better in every single aspect compared to D2, but in terms of items it's miles ahead in my opinion.
The point I was trying to make was that in Diablo 2 you would start off weak but would quickly progress. You felt frail early on but as you gained power you felt like a total badass. In Diablo 3, you start off with VERY strong skills. You're able to destroy monsters even in expert difficulity sometimes, every skill's effect looks powerful. You don't get as much of an increase in power as you did in Diablo 2. In diablo 2 the over tthe top spells like blizzard and meteor were rewarded to you later on. It was far more clear that you were gaining power. Even if the tuning was off.
I disagree. In both games, D2 and D3, you had basically access to all spells fairly soon in the leveling process. Of course, it's about synergies and items with +skills (D2) or items (D3) to make these skills stronger. But here's the thing where D3 is even better: in D2, you'd level up your character and search for better +skill level charms to make your Blizzard hit for higher numbers. In D3, you can get the same - if not even a higher range: a casual who just hit 70 will hit for a few hundred thousand and rarely see millions; a fully geared Jade WD will see crits for billions. The amount of power you gain is insane. Upgrades on T6 geared characters are rare, but they add up once you get them. Even more so, in D2 playing a level 80 character or playing a level 95 character wasn't that much of a difference as playing a T1 character compared to a T6 character, although I would say that's about equal in terms of progress.
What's even better in D3 is that when getting new items the skill's mechanics change drastically. This somewhat is related to what you said here:
On a side note items in Diablo 2 had more affixes to them that feel rewarding. It takes a legendary item now to give you a chance to proc posiion nova whenever you attack. Whereas it took a rare or even magic item back in diablo 2. Legendary items are the only items that have intresting and rewarding affixes. The items in Diablo 2 built upon your characters choices.
On that we just disagree. The most commonly mentioned example is the strength melee sorceress or similar niche builds - yeah, not really. Most people ended up playing the FotM (or rather FotSeasons/FotPatch/FotYear) builds like Blizzard sorc or Hammerdin or whatever, as those ensured getting to the top. In D3, when you finish your Marauder set the DH almost becomes an entirely different class in terms of playstyle. If you use the Hexing Pants your movement will obviously be completely different. I really disagree with that argument that affixes in D2 where anywhere better than they are in D3. After all, affixes in D2 were as bad as in D3V: in D2 it was just about getting +skill level, in D3V it was just about trifecta stats. In RoS you have at least a few choices on some slots.
Yeah, D3 is not better in every single aspect compared to D2, but in terms of items it's miles ahead in my opinion.
Power only matters in relation to the current difficulty level you are playing on. It's true that on Torment 6 you would get billion crits. But that also ignores the fact that the monsters you're fighting have stats adjusted to that. Whenever you start feeling really powerful you know it's time to move onto the next difficulty level where you're weaker again. Then you have to start back up. The point though is, you never feel this unified sense of progression. it's like a roller coaster. You get better on one difficulty and then you're moved up to the next one. Imagine if instead of feeling as weak as you do in torment 1 when you first started off, and as strong as you feel in Hard or normal. you start off feeling as weak as you do in Torment but end up feeling as strong as you do in Hard by getting better items and by graudally getting better skills. The range becomes just a pure number difference and not an actual gameplay difference when the system is set up like that. Admittely there issomefeeling once you hit torment 6 and that's the last difficulty level so gains made there stay.
I may have misphrased what I said in the second point. By building upon one's characters choices I mean that if you wanted to be a frenzy/WW barb there was physical gear that helped that build survive. You mentioned that one would spend time looking for items that had +1s to a skill. That's only true if you're a caster. And even then Diablo 2 was better because there were stats you had to balance on gear. You had to get the right amount of dexterity and attack rating if you were a melee. There were interesting choices to be made. It's true many people would end up doing cookie cutter builds because they were the most efficent in ladder. But the wide array of gear.
Also, in order to advance to a diffiuclity in Diablo 3. You must have a certain amount of stats, enough mainstat, enough vitality, enough all resistance. There is almost no diversity there except for Legendaries, which must be kept on in order to keep the kind of build they enable. And a small deviation between tanky classes and DPS oriented builds
One last thing; if you like playing the game that's the most important thing. It's about fun. I'm just saying this to those reading this thread and thinking "oh is the character progression doing what it's supposed to?" all that matters is that you're having a blast.
As a side note: i really dislike how Diablo 3 puts so much emphasis on one's weapon instead of all gear.
You can but only 3 times each difficulty. Diablo 3 lets you change your character in a fundamental way on the fly. I'm still mostly referring to before that patch because that's what most people played but I do think being able to change into totally different builds three times just by completing a simple quest was a bit generous.
Every system is a weigh of benefits versus costs. If you look at the costs of the Diablo 3 system you see. Lack of character identity, lack of replay ability, you can't specialize in builds that aren't predetermined to you through the passive skill system. At the same time you get the freedom to try out new builds. But is that really a good thing? When you can try all unique builds in minutes rather than weeks you lose replay ability, when you can change your tanky barbarian into a damage oriented one within a few seconds what does that do to character identity?
Patches changing around the landscape of a build surely is a problem. But it's not one that can't be worked You can give those affected re specs like you pointed out.
The problem with this is the notion that replay-ability in order to enjoy different skill builds shouldn't be considered such a good thing. I mean, is it really necessary to spend hours upon hours just to enjoy a different spec? What makes that better than the ability to respec whenever you like to whatever you like as often as you want? No offense, but the thought that this sort of replay-ability is needed seems like bullshit to me because that's not real replay-ability of a game, that's forced and not necessarily a good design just because you desire it. Instead of spending time leveling a new character to try out a particular build people now spend time leveling other classes or farming. There's still plenty of replay-ability in the game without the need to add bad game designs just to force players to play the game more.
Character identity isn't as important as you're making it out to be in Diablo 3, neither is the idea that just because we have the ability to respec means we lack character identity. In fact, it could enrich the experience because instead of having to level new characters every time you want to try a new build out you don't need to because the character you've spent hours on can simply change to that build. Again I mean no offense, but it sounds like you're nostalgically caught up in archaic designs of old rpgs as though they're so superior to the player having actual options in a game.
You can but only 3 times each difficulty. Diablo 3 lets you change your character in a fundamental way on the fly. I'm still mostly referring to before that patch because that's what most people played but I do think being able to change into totally different builds three times just by completing a simple quest was a bit generous.
Every system is a weigh of benefits versus costs. If you look at the costs of the Diablo 3 system you see. Lack of character identity, lack of replay ability, you can't specialize in builds that aren't predetermined to you through the passive skill system. At the same time you get the freedom to try out new builds. But is that really a good thing? When you can try all unique builds in minutes rather than weeks you lose replay ability, when you can change your tanky barbarian into a damage oriented one within a few seconds what does that do to character identity?
Patches changing around the landscape of a build surely is a problem. But it's not one that can't be worked You can give those affected re specs like you pointed out.
The problem with this is the notion that replay-ability in order to enjoy different skill builds shouldn't be considered such a good thing. I mean, is it really necessary to spend hours upon hours just to enjoy a different spec? What makes that better than the ability to respec whenever you like to whatever you like as often as you want? No offense, but the thought that this sort of replay-ability is needed seems like bullshit to me because that's not real replay-ability of a game, that's forced and not necessarily a good design just because you desire it. Instead of spending time leveling a new character to try out a particular build people now spend time leveling other classes or farming. There's still plenty of replay-ability in the game without the need to add bad game designs just to force players to play the game more.
Character identity isn't as important as you're making it out to be in Diablo 3, neither is the idea that just because we have the ability to respec means we lack character identity. In fact, it could enrich the experience because instead of having to level new characters every time you want to try a new build out you don't need to because the character you've spent hours on can simply change to that build. Again I mean no offense, but it sounds like you're nostalgically caught up in archaic designs of old rpgs as though they're so superior to the player having actual options in a game.
I will concede that to many people character ownership/identity does not matter as much. But to the point on replay ability, what happens if for example your single barbrian beocmes fully geared? That's it! You don't get any more gameplay out of that barbrian aside from hunting from small upgrades which aren't as rewarding.
You can but only 3 times each difficulty. Diablo 3 lets you change your character in a fundamental way on the fly. I'm still mostly referring to before that patch because that's what most people played but I do think being able to change into totally different builds three times just by completing a simple quest was a bit generous.
Every system is a weigh of benefits versus costs. If you look at the costs of the Diablo 3 system you see. Lack of character identity, lack of replay ability, you can't specialize in builds that aren't predetermined to you through the passive skill system. At the same time you get the freedom to try out new builds. But is that really a good thing? When you can try all unique builds in minutes rather than weeks you lose replay ability, when you can change your tanky barbarian into a damage oriented one within a few seconds what does that do to character identity?
Patches changing around the landscape of a build surely is a problem. But it's not one that can't be worked You can give those affected re specs like you pointed out.
The problem with this is the notion that replay-ability in order to enjoy different skill builds shouldn't be considered such a good thing. I mean, is it really necessary to spend hours upon hours just to enjoy a different spec? What makes that better than the ability to respec whenever you like to whatever you like as often as you want? No offense, but the thought that this sort of replay-ability is needed seems like bullshit to me because that's not real replay-ability of a game, that's forced and not necessarily a good design just because you desire it. Instead of spending time leveling a new character to try out a particular build people now spend time leveling other classes or farming. There's still plenty of replay-ability in the game without the need to add bad game designs just to force players to play the game more.
Character identity isn't as important as you're making it out to be in Diablo 3, neither is the idea that just because we have the ability to respec means we lack character identity. In fact, it could enrich the experience because instead of having to level new characters every time you want to try a new build out you don't need to because the character you've spent hours on can simply change to that build. Again I mean no offense, but it sounds like you're nostalgically caught up in archaic designs of old rpgs as though they're so superior to the player having actual options in a game.
I will concede that to many people character ownership/identity does not matter as much. But to the point on replay ability, what happens if for example your single barbrian beocmes fully geared? That's it! You don't get any more gameplay out of that barbrian aside from hunting from small upgrades which aren't as rewarding.
Regarding the starting out weak scenario. I start my characters at lvl1 in Torment 1. The game does balance to an extent, but you are in Torment 1. I find it much more fun than starting out in expert. Its a bit of a challenge. And if you're feeling too powerful, hit the button, move up.
If T-6 is too soft for you, there's GRifts on the way, or play Hardcore and see what its like. The game HAS options so you can try to find your happy place.
I played D2, I played D1. I've never been happier than atm. Of course I'm only at 330ish Para and still climbing.
Regarding the starting out weak scenario. I start my characters at lvl1 in Torment 1. The game does balance to an extent, but you are in Torment 1. I find it much more fun than starting out in expert. Its a bit of a challenge. And if you're feeling too powerful, hit the button, move up.
If T-6 is too soft for you, there's GRifts on the way, or play Hardcore and see what its like. The game HAS options so you can try to find your happy place.
I played D2, I played D1. I've never been happier than atm. Of course I'm only at 330ish Para and still climbing.
The reason I broguht that scenario up is that I wanted to illistruate how it might feel better if there was one smooth curve of difficulty. Were you would start off weak and end up strong. Instead of what we have now,where you start off weak in one difficulty and then advance to another only to be challenged again.it hurts the games reward system if you don't feel like you've gotten stronger overall
Playing a game that you find fun is after all what matters. I actually do the same. I'm playing my barb in the background right now haha.it's great if you enjoy beingchallengedthat way. I know I do sometimes.
I will concede that to many people character ownership/identity does not matter as much. But to the point on replay ability, what happens if for example your single barbrian beocmes fully geared? That's it! You don't get any more gameplay out of that barbrian aside from hunting from small upgrades which aren't as rewarding.
There's two issues I take with your example. One, is the fact that there are other classes you can play, as well as paragon levels you could grind, or even start the class all over again. There are options outside of gearing up a single character. The other is the idea that a fully geared barb is what the average player is going to achieve and something we should be concerned about.
People spending hundreds of hours playing the game complaining that their character is max geared is one thing, but the average player will never come close to reaching that. With that, why should we concern ourselves with the end game of a player who has already put thousands of hours into the game over the average player? It's basically a non-factor for Blizzard because so few people have reached that point. Forcing people to re-level characters just to try new builds is not the way to improve the game's replay-ability.
The next patch helps this problem a lot though. Between ladders and legendary gems, it gives players who've achieved most, or even all, of what is possible in the game more to do. I think they should have focused on releasing a ladder with the expansion rather than as it's first major patch, but I'll gladly welcome it.
I will concede that to many people character ownership/identity does not matter as much. But to the point on replay ability, what happens if for example your single barbrian beocmes fully geared? That's it! You don't get any more gameplay out of that barbrian aside from hunting from small upgrades which aren't as rewarding.
There's two issues I take with your example. One, is the fact that there are other classes you can play, as well as paragon levels you could grind, or even start the class all over again. There are options outside of gearing up a single character. The other is the idea that a fully geared barb is what the average player is going to achieve and something we should be concerned about.
People spending hundreds of hours playing the game complaining that their character is max geared is one thing, but the average player will never come close to reaching that. With that, why should we concern ourselves with the end game of a player who has already put thousands of hours into the game over the average player? It's basically a non-factor for Blizzard because so few people have reached that point. Forcing people to re-level characters just to try new builds is not the way to improve the game's replay-ability.
The next patch helps this problem a lot though. Between ladders and legendary gems, it gives players who've achieved most, or even all, of what is possible in the game more to do. I think they should have focused on releasing a ladder with the expansion rather than as it's first major patch, but I'll gladly welcome it.
It's true it would take the average player a long long time to do that. But take a look at a game like diablo 2. People are still able to play and enjoy it after 13 years! It would be impossible to conceive that with the current system we have. In diablo 2 it took a year to get to level 99 and then you had more playstyles to try out and level. I did misjudge RoS replayability. BUt still it dosen't live up to the longevity of the other games
Let's be careful about using the phrase "average player". There's really no such thing, and as a concept it's hazardously misleading... remember that the average Englishman has two testicles, but the average American only has one.
A hell of a lot of D3 players bought the game, noodled around for a bit, had some fun, then left the game never to return. The 1-70 journey with quests and cutscenes and unlocking skills and all that stuff we consider to be a brief, annoying preamble is the main game for millions of people. For the rest of us, there's still very much a situation where your longevity is my dull grind. Sure, you could get 'longevity' from D3 by reducing droprates and XP by a factor ten, making it a year-long project to get even a single character geared... but longevity shouldn't be the aim, it should be a side-effect. D3 attempts to induce that side-effect by giving us a pile of options for keeping gameplay fresh... easy respeccing, minimal cost for switching characters and (in theory) multiple things to do while in the game. Yes, that comes at a cost of (respectively) removing skills as a meaningful progression goal, diminishing our attachment to any particular character, and... well...D3 doesn'thave that many options for game types in practice, so the last one is moot.
It's true it would take the average player a long long time to do that. But take a look at a game like diablo 2. People are still able to play and enjoy it after 13 years! It would be impossible to conceive that with the current system we have. In diablo 2 it took a year to get to level 99 and then you had more playstyles to try out and level. I did misjudge RoS replayability. BUt still it dosen't live up to the longevity of the other games
Firstly, while it's still played, let's not act like it's played by so many people it matters. Sure I could start it up and play it and enjoy it right now, but I could do that with a lot of decade old games that I've spent enough time in already and don't any more because there are better options. That's more fed by nostalgia than actually enjoying the gameplay. Secondly, why would that be impossible with the current system? Because it doesn't take as long to get to level cap? You'd be hard pressed to sell a game designed in the same manner that D2 was for several reasons. For instance, competition for D2 in it's own genre was basically non-existent, while D3 has considerable competition that's as worthy of being played.
The problem I have with your suggestions is that while they may appeal to you, they're still overall bad game designs in the modern gaming era. You want longevity for longevity's sake, instead of for entertainment. And no offense, to claim it doesn't live up to the longevity of other games is just ignorant. Just because it took longer to do something in D2 may mean it has more longevity, but that's not anywhere near the type of longevity that's actually good for a game. They could easily increase leveling experience to the point of it taking just as long in D3 to reach level cap as it did in D2, but what exactly would that accomplish?
diablo 3 would be better thn d2 is there was customizzation. but theres very very little. They're starting to add it in some of the items affixes they're starting to get but they need to take a page from PoE book. massive customization with tons of skills being viable.
I feel like you could delete 3/4 of my crusaders abilities in the tree and i wouldn't even be fazed.
Not to mention theres only ONE set of armor a crusader can use to be viable (and by viable i mean competitive with other sets/classes) . ahkans. if you're not using 6 set piece you're gimped as fuck. without it you might as well take off all your gear and walk into fire and reroll. its completely abysmal. AND on top of them we have to reroll stats on all gear almost to get 50% CDR or as soon as it falls off you either run and wait the time for it to come off CD or die. And since spells cost so fucking much wrath cast alot of skills 3 times and completely out and it takes ages to it to build back up. But this is lessened with ahkans. but still needs to be fixed.
on a good note blizzard did way better going from d2 to d3 then whoever went from sacred 2 to 3.
The 1-70 journey with quests and cutscenes and unlocking skills and all that stuff we consider to be a brief, annoying preamble is the main game for millions of people. For the rest of us, there's still very much a situation where your longevity is my dull grind. Sure, you could get 'longevity' from D3 by reducing droprates and XP by a factor ten, making it a year-long project to get even a single character geared... but longevity shouldn't be the aim, it should be a side-effect.
Thank you so fucking much. I love you dearly.
It makes me violently angry when people talk about "longevity" as if it's something that can, and should, be the #1 priority of the developers. Just reduce the drop rates so that everyone has to play 2,000 hours before they get good stuff. No! Don't do that! Make me keep playing because it's fun, not because you've created a Sisyphean task for me to complete.
The 1-70 journey with quests and cutscenes and unlocking skills and all that stuff we consider to be a brief, annoying preamble is the main game for millions of people. For the rest of us, there's still very much a situation where your longevity is my dull grind. Sure, you could get 'longevity' from D3 by reducing droprates and XP by a factor ten, making it a year-long project to get even a single character geared... but longevity shouldn't be the aim, it should be a side-effect.
Thank you so fucking much. I love you dearly.
It makes me violently angry when people talk about "longevity" as if it's something that can, and should, be the #1 priority of the developers. Just reduce the drop rates so that everyone has to play 2,000 hours before they get good stuff. No! Don't do that! Make me keep playing because it's fun, not because you've created a Sisyphean task for me to complete.
I don't mean gaining longevity that way, if you look at the Diablo 2 system, which surely had some major flaws it still provided many people with a lot to do.in the words of one commentator "I had three sorceresses, each of them with thier own different playstyle. And it was enough to keep me entertained for years" That's what I mean by longevity. I would loathe, i repeat LOATHE nerfing drop rates for the point of longevity. I agree it's not a primary aim but it's still important. Besides that little bit of character permanence sets your character apart from every other character with that same class. I know many don't care about it. which is fine but it's not the only benefit.
I don't mean gaining longevity that way, if you look at the Diablo 2 system, which surely had some major flaws it still provided many people with a lot to do.in the words of one commentator "I had three sorceresses, each of them with thier own different playstyle. And it was enough to keep me entertained for years" That's what I mean by longevity. I would loathe, i repeat LOATHE nerfing drop rates for the point of longevity. I agree it's not a primary aim but it's still important. Besides that little bit of character permanence sets your character apart from every other character with that same class. I know many don't care about it. which is fine but it's not the only benefit.
Sure, but the discussion we should be having isn't "How do we improve D3's longevity"... that's too vague, and usually results in suggestions that involve making it more like some other game. A more productive discussion is "Do the features in D3 that are supposed to keep people playing actually work?".
Are easy respecs actually useful, or is there a tiny handful of cookie-cutter builds that make respeccing pointless?
Is each class uniquely fun and more or less equally accessible and effective, or does switching classes feel like a downgrade or a chore?
Is the loot-hunt too easy to 'finish', or are there still some items to look forward even after 1000 hours of play?
Are the various game modes engaging and rewarding, or are most of them underwhelming trudges?
Because in the end, it's somewhat pointless talking about how cool D3 would be if it was more like D2, or PoE, or Torchlight, or Darkstone... Blizzard's only interested (rightly so, IMO) in making D3 a better version of itself.
I don't mean gaining longevity that way, if you look at the Diablo 2 system, which surely had some major flaws it still provided many people with a lot to do.in the words of one commentator "I had three sorceresses, each of them with thier own different playstyle. And it was enough to keep me entertained for years" That's what I mean by longevity. I would loathe, i repeat LOATHE nerfing drop rates for the point of longevity. I agree it's not a primary aim but it's still important. Besides that little bit of character permanence sets your character apart from every other character with that same class. I know many don't care about it. which is fine but it's not the only benefit.
Sure, but the discussion we should be having isn't "How do we improve D3's longevity"... that's too vague, and usually results in suggestions that involve making it more like some other game. A more productive discussion is "Do the features in D3 that are supposed to keep people playing actually work?".
Are easy respecs actually useful, or is there a tiny handful of cookie-cutter builds that make respeccing pointless?
Is each class uniquely fun and more or less equally accessible and effective, or does switching classes feel like a downgrade or a chore?
Is the loot-hunt too easy to 'finish', or are there still some items to look forward even after 1000 hours of play?
Are the various game modes engaging and rewarding, or are most of them underwhelming trudges?
Because in the end, it's somewhat pointless talking about how cool D3 would be if it was more like D2, or PoE, or Torchlight, or Darkstone... Blizzard's only interested (rightly so, IMO) in making D3 a better version of itself.
I brought up D2 because it's the prequel to D3. You're right that diablo 3 should try to be a better version of itself. But part of that is looking at what past games in the series did right and what other games do right. Then trying to learn from those things so you can make a better game overall. In the same way Diablo 2 built on the original diablo. Diablo 3 shouldn't try to reinvent the wheel. It should reap the benefits of past successes as well as innovate. The developers often got caught up with the slogan of delivering new experiences. What matters is that you deliver a cool experience. It dosen't have to be different for the sake of different (not saying you're saying that).
The four questions you pose are admittedly what I should have focused on more and I thank you for pointing them out.
I think it does an abysmal job of character progression. but describing why is a tricky thing. When you envision D3 character progression, you are envisioning how tough the monsters are that you can kill. Their is only one way to kill a monster. drain its life bar. Which may seem under-handed to hold that simple idea under an accusatory spotlight, but it seems that Blizzard did not do that. and if they did character progression would be more exciting.
The problem is lack of choice. Ideally in terms of character progression I think the fun is "what you choose to do" and the challenge is "what you hope to overcome". Well in D3 what you choose to do and what you overcome is all very well known unfortunately.
it's the same monsters, same bosses, not alot of variety, keywardens are scaled up models of the same creatures.. the same items drop, they have the same smart loot stats, you might kill demons for a week....
whats your reward? you get to click that same paragon arrow.
what gems will you socket this piece of gear with? the same ones as the gear your replacing. the same gems as Jaetch and the same as druin
and then what happens? a legendary drops. the same goddamn fucking one. or a different one, but the same as a hundred thousand other demon hunters. a hundred thousand demon hunters. all wearing the EXACT. SAME. SET.
sounds crazy? well it time its the case.
then expansion rolls out and adventure mode is the same bosses,monsters and quests jumbled in a different order...............
The players should have lots to choose from and the threats should be DIVERSE to encourage what you choose to do to survive and to conquer. and just adding a few zeros to monster life and damage is not the way to go about it...
simply piling on zeros should cost you your job when it comes to game design if you kept doing it......certainly isnt the mark of a real master of their artform......
and as fara s diversity is concerned in relation to character progression, its sad that certain skills sat in the corner molding away for 2 years before finally being brought into focus....sleet storm, strafe, and god knows which others....
It's really the lack of experience and the lack of choice and personalization that scrapes away at the fabric of this game. especially when viewing the notion of character progression.
Take my lovely wife for example.
She picks gems based on what colour she wants them to be that week. the green and red percentages on tool tips are too daunting. she'd had never even HEARD of a role-playing game before she met me, so to say she is a noob is a crazy understatement. And she loves the game. and in her words she enjoys it because she does not play it as intensely as other people, she does not sympathize with what a write here and on the official forums because she feels differently about the game than I do and she feels differently about it, because she is not let down by it. It offers her something new every few minutes. She only plays about an hour every few months........but at that rate?? 1 class set is enough. She does not even know what it is.....
for me and my friends? and how many other people? 1 or 2 class sets is not enough. and the same goes with builds and skills.
how the builds and skills oppose your enemies is more than enough choice for people like my wife....they are not nearly enough many many people, who are passionate about role playing games, like me, my friends and loads of other people, who probably followed D# development for years and rushed to the store to buy it......
Legendary items with no interesting effects? some people don't even care....my wife sure doesn't....
it really highlights the fact that good game making is a real black art.
books are better than movies because your envisioning the book in your mind, the movie is envisioning it for you. one is wildly constrained compared to the other...
and my experience with D3, especially on this specific topic about character progression, is WILDLY, BRUTALLY constrained compared to my wife's experience....in her experience running around in the desert fighting monsters dressed like "a princess" with a magic spear has been thoroughly enjoyable.......
I don't mean gaining longevity that way, if you look at the Diablo 2 system, which surely had some major flaws it still provided many people with a lot to do.in the words of one commentator "I had three sorceresses, each of them with thier own different playstyle. And it was enough to keep me entertained for years" That's what I mean by longevity. I would loathe, i repeat LOATHE nerfing drop rates for the point of longevity. I agree it's not a primary aim but it's still important. Besides that little bit of character permanence sets your character apart from every other character with that same class. I know many don't care about it. which is fine but it's not the only benefit.
Yes, D2 had longevity. But in this day and age of video games, that type of longevity is bad. I'd even argue the primary reason D2 got away with that type of longevity is because it had no competition. Providing longevity by preventing people from playing whatever spec they want, which is a staple of D3, is bad in every possible way.
I find it odd when people complain of personal customization in order to set yourself apart in a game like D3. This isn't an MMO where you can go to a town to look at idling peoples' gear. Concerning yourself so much with how other people see you is no way to enjoy a video game. I'm not saying you can't do it, just suggesting that D3 isn't the game for that sort of thing.
Your post seems to be shooting at the theoretical problem that the skill system and rune system in D3 are not well-designed. In contract, they are the best way to create such a skill progression system by today's RPG standards.
This game really has only two flaws (which, unfortunately, are so major that they degrade the quality of the game):
1) The character stats and item affixes system(s)
2) The lack of attractive game modes (PvP arenas, endless dungeons)
Your post seems to be shooting at the theoretical problem that the skill system and rune system in D3 are not well-designed. In contract, they are the best way to create such a skill progression system by today's RPG standards.
This game really has only two flaws (which, unfortunately, are so major that they degrade the quality of the game):
1) The character stats and item affixes system(s)
2) The lack of attractive game modes (PvP arenas, endless dungeons)
Don't you think it's true that you're character never really feels that much stronger at higher levels? Once you get a set or something yeah it feels great but you don't really have this system in place with the leveling structure and itemization were you could constantly be finding upgrades and you're character would be stronger. Once you start to feel strong you just move up to a new difficulty were you feel weak again. It's an oft made point by online reviewers and critics as well.
The reason I criticize the skill and rune system is because they aren't set up in a way that feels rewarding and that gives you a desire to improve them. Whenever I play Diablo 3, I find myself in love with the fluidity of combat and at the same time feel unsatisified because my character never really gets stronger in proportion to the monsters he prides himself on fighting.
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What's even better in D3 is that when getting new items the skill's mechanics change drastically. This somewhat is related to what you said here:
On that we just disagree. The most commonly mentioned example is the strength melee sorceress or similar niche builds - yeah, not really. Most people ended up playing the FotM (or rather FotSeasons/FotPatch/FotYear) builds like Blizzard sorc or Hammerdin or whatever, as those ensured getting to the top. In D3, when you finish your Marauder set the DH almost becomes an entirely different class in terms of playstyle. If you use the Hexing Pants your movement will obviously be completely different. I really disagree with that argument that affixes in D2 where anywhere better than they are in D3. After all, affixes in D2 were as bad as in D3V: in D2 it was just about getting +skill level, in D3V it was just about trifecta stats. In RoS you have at least a few choices on some slots.
Yeah, D3 is not better in every single aspect compared to D2, but in terms of items it's miles ahead in my opinion.
I may have misphrased what I said in the second point. By building upon one's characters choices I mean that if you wanted to be a frenzy/WW barb there was physical gear that helped that build survive. You mentioned that one would spend time looking for items that had +1s to a skill. That's only true if you're a caster. And even then Diablo 2 was better because there were stats you had to balance on gear. You had to get the right amount of dexterity and attack rating if you were a melee. There were interesting choices to be made. It's true many people would end up doing cookie cutter builds because they were the most efficent in ladder. But the wide array of gear.
Also, in order to advance to a diffiuclity in Diablo 3. You must have a certain amount of stats, enough mainstat, enough vitality, enough all resistance. There is almost no diversity there except for Legendaries, which must be kept on in order to keep the kind of build they enable. And a small deviation between tanky classes and DPS oriented builds
One last thing; if you like playing the game that's the most important thing. It's about fun. I'm just saying this to those reading this thread and thinking "oh is the character progression doing what it's supposed to?" all that matters is that you're having a blast.
As a side note: i really dislike how Diablo 3 puts so much emphasis on one's weapon instead of all gear.
Character identity isn't as important as you're making it out to be in Diablo 3, neither is the idea that just because we have the ability to respec means we lack character identity. In fact, it could enrich the experience because instead of having to level new characters every time you want to try a new build out you don't need to because the character you've spent hours on can simply change to that build. Again I mean no offense, but it sounds like you're nostalgically caught up in archaic designs of old rpgs as though they're so superior to the player having actual options in a game.
If T-6 is too soft for you, there's GRifts on the way, or play Hardcore and see what its like. The game HAS options so you can try to find your happy place.
I played D2, I played D1. I've never been happier than atm. Of course I'm only at 330ish Para and still climbing.
WD Season 8 https://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/Kildare/84509816
Monk season 7 http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/MojoJoJo/42225505
DH season 6 http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/DeadShot/75655606
Angry Chicken http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/WhoDoVooDoo/68187610
What? Me worry?
Playing a game that you find fun is after all what matters. I actually do the same. I'm playing my barb in the background right now haha.it's great if you enjoy beingchallengedthat way. I know I do sometimes.
l.
People spending hundreds of hours playing the game complaining that their character is max geared is one thing, but the average player will never come close to reaching that. With that, why should we concern ourselves with the end game of a player who has already put thousands of hours into the game over the average player? It's basically a non-factor for Blizzard because so few people have reached that point. Forcing people to re-level characters just to try new builds is not the way to improve the game's replay-ability.
The next patch helps this problem a lot though. Between ladders and legendary gems, it gives players who've achieved most, or even all, of what is possible in the game more to do. I think they should have focused on releasing a ladder with the expansion rather than as it's first major patch, but I'll gladly welcome it.
A hell of a lot of D3 players bought the game, noodled around for a bit, had some fun, then left the game never to return. The 1-70 journey with quests and cutscenes and unlocking skills and all that stuff we consider to be a brief, annoying preamble is the main game for millions of people. For the rest of us, there's still very much a situation where your longevity is my dull grind. Sure, you could get 'longevity' from D3 by reducing droprates and XP by a factor ten, making it a year-long project to get even a single character geared... but longevity shouldn't be the aim, it should be a side-effect. D3 attempts to induce that side-effect by giving us a pile of options for keeping gameplay fresh... easy respeccing, minimal cost for switching characters and (in theory) multiple things to do while in the game. Yes, that comes at a cost of (respectively) removing skills as a meaningful progression goal, diminishing our attachment to any particular character, and... well...D3 doesn'thave that many options for game types in practice, so the last one is moot.
The problem I have with your suggestions is that while they may appeal to you, they're still overall bad game designs in the modern gaming era. You want longevity for longevity's sake, instead of for entertainment. And no offense, to claim it doesn't live up to the longevity of other games is just ignorant. Just because it took longer to do something in D2 may mean it has more longevity, but that's not anywhere near the type of longevity that's actually good for a game. They could easily increase leveling experience to the point of it taking just as long in D3 to reach level cap as it did in D2, but what exactly would that accomplish?
I feel like you could delete 3/4 of my crusaders abilities in the tree and i wouldn't even be fazed.
Not to mention theres only ONE set of armor a crusader can use to be viable (and by viable i mean competitive with other sets/classes) . ahkans. if you're not using 6 set piece you're gimped as fuck. without it you might as well take off all your gear and walk into fire and reroll. its completely abysmal. AND on top of them we have to reroll stats on all gear almost to get 50% CDR or as soon as it falls off you either run and wait the time for it to come off CD or die. And since spells cost so fucking much wrath cast alot of skills 3 times and completely out and it takes ages to it to build back up. But this is lessened with ahkans. but still needs to be fixed.
on a good note blizzard did way better going from d2 to d3 then whoever went from sacred 2 to 3.
It makes me violently angry when people talk about "longevity" as if it's something that can, and should, be the #1 priority of the developers. Just reduce the drop rates so that everyone has to play 2,000 hours before they get good stuff. No! Don't do that! Make me keep playing because it's fun, not because you've created a Sisyphean task for me to complete.
Are easy respecs actually useful, or is there a tiny handful of cookie-cutter builds that make respeccing pointless?
Is each class uniquely fun and more or less equally accessible and effective, or does switching classes feel like a downgrade or a chore?
Is the loot-hunt too easy to 'finish', or are there still some items to look forward even after 1000 hours of play?
Are the various game modes engaging and rewarding, or are most of them underwhelming trudges?
Because in the end, it's somewhat pointless talking about how cool D3 would be if it was more like D2, or PoE, or Torchlight, or Darkstone... Blizzard's only interested (rightly so, IMO) in making D3 a better version of itself.
The four questions you pose are admittedly what I should have focused on more and I thank you for pointing them out.
The problem is lack of choice. Ideally in terms of character progression I think the fun is "what you choose to do" and the challenge is "what you hope to overcome". Well in D3 what you choose to do and what you overcome is all very well known unfortunately.
it's the same monsters, same bosses, not alot of variety, keywardens are scaled up models of the same creatures.. the same items drop, they have the same smart loot stats, you might kill demons for a week....
whats your reward? you get to click that same paragon arrow.
what gems will you socket this piece of gear with? the same ones as the gear your replacing. the same gems as Jaetch and the same as druin
and then what happens? a legendary drops. the same goddamn fucking one. or a different one, but the same as a hundred thousand other demon hunters. a hundred thousand demon hunters. all wearing the EXACT. SAME. SET.
sounds crazy? well it time its the case.
then expansion rolls out and adventure mode is the same bosses,monsters and quests jumbled in a different order...............
The players should have lots to choose from and the threats should be DIVERSE to encourage what you choose to do to survive and to conquer. and just adding a few zeros to monster life and damage is not the way to go about it...
simply piling on zeros should cost you your job when it comes to game design if you kept doing it......certainly isnt the mark of a real master of their artform......
and as fara s diversity is concerned in relation to character progression, its sad that certain skills sat in the corner molding away for 2 years before finally being brought into focus....sleet storm, strafe, and god knows which others....
It's really the lack of experience and the lack of choice and personalization that scrapes away at the fabric of this game. especially when viewing the notion of character progression.
Take my lovely wife for example.
She picks gems based on what colour she wants them to be that week. the green and red percentages on tool tips are too daunting. she'd had never even HEARD of a role-playing game before she met me, so to say she is a noob is a crazy understatement. And she loves the game. and in her words she enjoys it because she does not play it as intensely as other people, she does not sympathize with what a write here and on the official forums because she feels differently about the game than I do and she feels differently about it, because she is not let down by it. It offers her something new every few minutes. She only plays about an hour every few months........but at that rate?? 1 class set is enough. She does not even know what it is.....
for me and my friends? and how many other people? 1 or 2 class sets is not enough. and the same goes with builds and skills.
how the builds and skills oppose your enemies is more than enough choice for people like my wife....they are not nearly enough many many people, who are passionate about role playing games, like me, my friends and loads of other people, who probably followed D# development for years and rushed to the store to buy it......
Legendary items with no interesting effects? some people don't even care....my wife sure doesn't....
it really highlights the fact that good game making is a real black art.
books are better than movies because your envisioning the book in your mind, the movie is envisioning it for you. one is wildly constrained compared to the other...
and my experience with D3, especially on this specific topic about character progression, is WILDLY, BRUTALLY constrained compared to my wife's experience....in her experience running around in the desert fighting monsters dressed like "a princess" with a magic spear has been thoroughly enjoyable.......
I find it odd when people complain of personal customization in order to set yourself apart in a game like D3. This isn't an MMO where you can go to a town to look at idling peoples' gear. Concerning yourself so much with how other people see you is no way to enjoy a video game. I'm not saying you can't do it, just suggesting that D3 isn't the game for that sort of thing.
This game really has only two flaws (which, unfortunately, are so major that they degrade the quality of the game):
1) The character stats and item affixes system(s)
2) The lack of attractive game modes (PvP arenas, endless dungeons)
The reason I criticize the skill and rune system is because they aren't set up in a way that feels rewarding and that gives you a desire to improve them. Whenever I play Diablo 3, I find myself in love with the fluidity of combat and at the same time feel unsatisified because my character never really gets stronger in proportion to the monsters he prides himself on fighting.