IMO, for greater rifts 30+ I wouldn't wear anything other than one of the immunity necks because higher tier rifts feel like pre-nerf inferno, everything that isn't your basic white mob 1 shots you... Toughness feels relatively worthless and the only survivability stats that are worth-while are immunities. I doubt any of the extra passives (considering it's not going to be one of your top 4) outweighs the amount of time spent running back from checkpoint because you got clipped by an arcane torrent for 1/5th of a second.
It isn't an elitist attitude: it is an achievement that takes dedication. If, by making keywardens drop keys 100% of the time, and uber bosses drop their parts 100% of the time, is "making the game fun", every character will have an amulet within 2-3 hours of the 2.1 patch and the game will become dull very quickly. People need something that takes time and effort to continue playing.
The one thing Blizzard would be wise to do is to ignore the noise from the instant gratification crowd AND the "I wear diapers while I'm playing because getting up to go pee during my 20-hour play sessions would cost me two legendary drops per week" crowd.
Neither group really helps create a better game. One group wants to get things without much effort/time, the other group expects that because of their effort/time they should be entitled to spoils beyond that of others who can't, for whatever reason, devote more time to playing video games per week than to going to their job.
This is a video game. Things don't have to be "earned" all the time. That being said, in many cases, "earning" something provides a sense of pride and/or contentment. A healthy mix of things is to be desired. The game can't solely be based on PLAY MOAR TO GET MOAR... it's a bad philosophy that I never will endorse.
More time will ALWAYS correlate to more rewards in games like these. There's nothing wrong with attempting to mitigate that to some degree because, God forbid, people don't play D3 for 50 hours/week. They don't deserve stuff then.
Ultimately, layered RNG (RNG to get the keys, RNG to get the organs, RNG to get the right rolls) feels exponentially more-punitive the less time you have to play the game. That's NOT a good paradigm. What I would suggest is that the crafting cost of the amulets & rings are moved to the Infernal Machines and, instead of collecting organs, each boss has a chance to drop an amulet or ring, or maybe even both. We sure as fuck don't need 100% drops. People asking for 100% drops are really just hinting at a better solution: remove one of the layers of RNG.
Make it farm keys => kill ubers instead of farm keys => farm organs => craft ring/amulet. Even if the rate of acquisition was roughly the same, it would have a pretty profound psychological effect on people who are farming it and would go a LONG way to eliminating bad organ streaks. I know I sure as fuck didn't have anything close to even organ distribution on lvl 60 ubers.
IMO, for greater rifts 30+ I wouldn't wear anything other than one of the immunity necks because higher tier rifts feel like pre-nerf inferno, everything that isn't your basic white mob 1 shots you... Toughness feels relatively worthless and the only survivability stats that are worth-while are immunities. I doubt any of the extra passives (considering it's not going to be one of your top 4) outweighs the amount of time spent running back from checkpoint because you got clipped by an arcane torrent for 1/5th of a second.
Good point. If we assume that greater rifts will be the main time spender for the majority of players - yes, I'd definitely take the arcane damage immunity amuletover anything else, since there's nothing more frustrating for me than dying from unavoidable damage of jailers on higher levels.
However, as some people in these forums have already pointed out, greater rifts aren't the most rewarding place in terms of loot. Which means you'll still need a max DPS build to clear T6 rifts as fast as possible - and for that I'd rather take a 5th passive.
Depends on what kind of passives you have access to. And what kind of immunity you think you need.
I mean I'd happily take indestructible over immunity to a single damage type on my crusader.
The point is though, you can have indestructible if you want... This neck will only reward you with your 5th best passive and on most classes that isn't that amazing.
How about a ressurect passive? If you can't be immune, live twice!
Some classes have them, right? If it isn't on a set you're wearing already.
Yeah... WD, wizard, monk, and crusader have those. Those are passives on amulets I'd take for any of those classes any day. They're awesome unless you're doing something like normal bounties where you're never dying, but then you can also wear a fun amulet like the Murlocket or whatever... ;-)
About the immunity amulets - can't really say I would prefer them. I have an almost perfect Star of Azkaranth on my crusader (with CDR instead of elemental damage, otherwise perfect), and I would instantly switch it out for any other amulet that gives me just 1% more DPS (well, and if I could afford to lose the CDR). Sure, at first it sounds insanely nice to be immune to fire, but in reality it's not. Molten? I don't care, usually I'm done killing all mobs and looting before the explosion takes off. If you die to Molten, don't even think about ever stepping into a 35+ Greater Rift ;-) The other fire damage spell that really hurts are fire chains. Those are really nice to heal me up and dodge incoming damage. However, any other damage spell (like Arcane Enchanted) hits so much harder than the Fire Chains heal me that it only works if the mob have no other (melee) damage affix. And Fire Chains aren't the most common mobs around either. All other fire affixes I don't care. So in the end... the Star sounds OP, but it really is not. In my personal ranking it's only third tied with Mara's Kaleidoscope. For my holy shotgun Crusader Electrified is actually worst, therefore the lightning amulet is awesome; and of course Julia's Cameo. The cold immunity amulet... meh, useless, just like Ice Climbers. Cold is annoying, but doesn't really kill you often enough to make it even worth switching the amulet.
On Greater Rifts, where you can't switch gear (unless you Teleport to town - which might only be an option for Rift Guardians, but I hope they disable that as well) I wouldn't wear any of those amulets because of their affix. I will wear whatever amulet has the best stats overall. If that happens to be one of the immunity amulets, so be it, but there is no clear winner in the discussion of Hellfire amulet versus immunity amulets versus other legendary/set amulets. Heck, if you really like the immunity amulets, you should consider the new Blackthorne's as well!
How about a ressurect passive? If you can't be immune, live twice!
Some classes have them, right? If it isn't on a set you're wearing already.
Yeah... WD, wizard, monk, andcrusader have those. Those are passives on amulets I'd take for any of those classes any day. They're awesome unless you're doing something like normal bounties where you're never dying, but then you can also wear a fun amulet like the Murlocket or whatever... ;-)
About the immunity amulets - can't really say I would prefer them. I have an almost perfect Star of Azkaranth on my crusader (with CDR instead of elemental damage, otherwise perfect), and I would instantly switch it out for any other amulet that gives me just 1% more DPS (well, and if I could afford to lose the CDR). Sure, at first it sounds insanely nice to be immune to fire, but in reality it's not. Molten? I don't care, usually I'm done killing all mobs and looting before the explosion takes off. If you die to Molten, don't even think about ever stepping into a 35+ Greater Rift ;-)The other fire damage spell that really hurts are fire chains. Those are really nice to heal me up and dodge incoming damage. However, any other damage spell (like Arcane Enchanted) hits so much harder than the Fire Chains heal me that it only works if the mob have no other (melee) damage affix. And Fire Chains aren't the most common mobs around either. All other fire affixes I don't care. So in the end... the Star sounds OP, but it really is not. In my personal ranking it's only third tied with Mara's Kaleidoscope. For my holy shotgun Crusader Electrified is actually worst, therefore the lightning amulet is awesome; and of course Julia's Cameo. The cold immunity amulet... meh, useless, just like Ice Climbers. Cold is annoying, but doesn't really kill you often enough to make it even worth switching the amulet.
On Greater Rifts, where you can't switch gear (unless you Teleport to town - which might only be an option for Rift Guardians, but I hope they disable that as well) I wouldn't wear any of those amulets because of their affix. I will wear whatever amulet has the best stats overall. If that happens to be one of the immunity amulets, so be it, but there is no clear winner in the discussion of Hellfire amulet versus immunity amulets versus other legendary/set amulets. Heck, if you really like the immunity amulets, you should consider the new Blackthorne's as well!
If you think Ice Climbers are useless wiether you're wearing 6pc Akkan or multi piece BTs. Immujnity to nearly all CC is one of the best effects in the game.
ok, but then it's also a question of efficiency, because the mobs have more hp and i think running all together to each boss takes not really less time than running solo.
but if some members of the group are lucky enough to get the artifacts most of the time, you maybe can clear "more" portals, i agree.
I think he meant the cold immune ammy was useless BECAUSE of Ice climbers. I tend to agree.
Ice Climbers are useless outside of Monks, Barbarians, Crusaders. They seriously need to up the cold damage reduction because you still get 1-shotted as a WD/Wiz/DH in T6 even with ~1800 resists + Ice Climbers.
And you peeps who think you have perfect ammies, need a reality check, lol. Socket is more valuable than 100% crit damage for some classes now thanks to those legendary jewels.
Hellfire Ammy looks awesome. Can't wait to grind for a Socket/100cd/10cc/X + Passive.
Maybe it will be good, but as I only have one character, and currently have a Haunt of Vaxo with 705str/10cc/80chd/20lightning(enchantable into socket) AND health globe bonus (For a barb, that's $$) and a unique affix that's pretty lame, but something. Let me know how many ammies you think I'll need to craft to beat it... 30? More? Not something I'll be investing in, unfortunately.
And my ammy isn't perfect.. it's pretty darn good, but it could be a fire or arcane immunity amulet.. at which point I don't think the Hellfire could hold a hellcandle to it except maybe 1/1000 with a useful passive and pretty much perfect stats.
If you think Ice Climbers are useless wiether you're wearing 6pc Akkan or multi piece BTs. Immujnity to nearly all CC is one of the best effects in the game.
Ice Climbers are useless outside of Monks, Barbarians, Crusaders. They seriously need to up the cold damage reduction because you still get 1-shotted as a WD/Wiz/DH in T6 even with ~1800 resists + Ice Climbers.
Yes and no. Like oldschool said, I just said that the cold amulet is useless because if you have trouble with cold, get Ice Climbers. However, I would not use Ice Climbers EVER. Why?
Like ActionJunkie said, ranged classes don't need Ice Climbers. Monks have Epiphany, Crusaders have Akkarat's Champion, and Barbarian are almost always wearing Lut Socks.
Grated, I don't have Ice Climbers (I haven't found them at all yet!) but even if I'd find them, right now I have not a single class on which I would use them. Not sure about 2.1 though, but just saying... I get by without Ice Climbers and haven't missed them or felt a strong desire to get them ever.
They're pretty great on a MM-wizard. Frees a defensive skill slot to break CC (teleport), which means you either get another defensive, or just another dmg ability. Not a lot of alternatives, either, for that specific spec (2 set cains being the only other one with legs/feet - new DD's means that isn't an option anymore, though). It's pretty undervalued how much you actually get slowed down/frozen etc, even as a ranged, doing everything "perfectly". It is true that it does not prevent the damage, but unless you're doing G30-35 rifts, then you're not going to be oneshotted by the initial application - you're going to get killed because you can't get out of subsequent shit fast enough.
I think the number of viable end game builds/variants will increase dramatically by having a fifth passive, of course there will always be a "best" but it might be nice to see something other than foth crusaders, lfb DH's and jade WDs everywhere
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Neither group really helps create a better game. One group wants to get things without much effort/time, the other group expects that because of their effort/time they should be entitled to spoils beyond that of others who can't, for whatever reason, devote more time to playing video games per week than to going to their job.
This is a video game. Things don't have to be "earned" all the time. That being said, in many cases, "earning" something provides a sense of pride and/or contentment. A healthy mix of things is to be desired. The game can't solely be based on PLAY MOAR TO GET MOAR... it's a bad philosophy that I never will endorse.
More time will ALWAYS correlate to more rewards in games like these. There's nothing wrong with attempting to mitigate that to some degree because, God forbid, people don't play D3 for 50 hours/week. They don't deserve stuff then.
Ultimately, layered RNG (RNG to get the keys, RNG to get the organs, RNG to get the right rolls) feels exponentially more-punitive the less time you have to play the game. That's NOT a good paradigm. What I would suggest is that the crafting cost of the amulets & rings are moved to the Infernal Machines and, instead of collecting organs, each boss has a chance to drop an amulet or ring, or maybe even both. We sure as fuck don't need 100% drops. People asking for 100% drops are really just hinting at a better solution: remove one of the layers of RNG.
Make it farm keys => kill ubers instead of farm keys => farm organs => craft ring/amulet. Even if the rate of acquisition was roughly the same, it would have a pretty profound psychological effect on people who are farming it and would go a LONG way to eliminating bad organ streaks. I know I sure as fuck didn't have anything close to even organ distribution on lvl 60 ubers.
However, as some people in these forums have already pointed out, greater rifts aren't the most rewarding place in terms of loot. Which means you'll still need a max DPS build to clear T6 rifts as fast as possible - and for that I'd rather take a 5th passive.
Some classes have them, right? If it isn't on a set you're wearing already.
WD Season 8 https://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/Kildare/84509816
Monk season 7 http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/MojoJoJo/42225505
DH season 6 http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/DeadShot/75655606
Angry Chicken http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/WhoDoVooDoo/68187610
What? Me worry?
Yeah... WD, wizard, monk, and crusader have those. Those are passives on amulets I'd take for any of those classes any day. They're awesome unless you're doing something like normal bounties where you're never dying, but then you can also wear a fun amulet like the Murlocket or whatever... ;-)
About the immunity amulets - can't really say I would prefer them. I have an almost perfect Star of Azkaranth on my crusader (with CDR instead of elemental damage, otherwise perfect), and I would instantly switch it out for any other amulet that gives me just 1% more DPS (well, and if I could afford to lose the CDR). Sure, at first it sounds insanely nice to be immune to fire, but in reality it's not. Molten? I don't care, usually I'm done killing all mobs and looting before the explosion takes off. If you die to Molten, don't even think about ever stepping into a 35+ Greater Rift ;-) The other fire damage spell that really hurts are fire chains. Those are really nice to heal me up and dodge incoming damage. However, any other damage spell (like Arcane Enchanted) hits so much harder than the Fire Chains heal me that it only works if the mob have no other (melee) damage affix. And Fire Chains aren't the most common mobs around either. All other fire affixes I don't care. So in the end... the Star sounds OP, but it really is not. In my personal ranking it's only third tied with Mara's Kaleidoscope. For my holy shotgun Crusader Electrified is actually worst, therefore the lightning amulet is awesome; and of course Julia's Cameo. The cold immunity amulet... meh, useless, just like Ice Climbers. Cold is annoying, but doesn't really kill you often enough to make it even worth switching the amulet.
On Greater Rifts, where you can't switch gear (unless you Teleport to town - which might only be an option for Rift Guardians, but I hope they disable that as well) I wouldn't wear any of those amulets because of their affix. I will wear whatever amulet has the best stats overall. If that happens to be one of the immunity amulets, so be it, but there is no clear winner in the discussion of Hellfire amulet versus immunity amulets versus other legendary/set amulets. Heck, if you really like the immunity amulets, you should consider the new Blackthorne's as well!
but if some members of the group are lucky enough to get the artifacts most of the time, you maybe can clear "more" portals, i agree.
WD Season 8 https://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/Kildare/84509816
Monk season 7 http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/MojoJoJo/42225505
DH season 6 http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/DeadShot/75655606
Angry Chicken http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/finiar-1655/WhoDoVooDoo/68187610
What? Me worry?
And you peeps who think you have perfect ammies, need a reality check, lol. Socket is more valuable than 100% crit damage for some classes now thanks to those legendary jewels.
Hellfire Ammy looks awesome. Can't wait to grind for a Socket/100cd/10cc/X + Passive.
And my ammy isn't perfect.. it's pretty darn good, but it could be a fire or arcane immunity amulet.. at which point I don't think the Hellfire could hold a hellcandle to it except maybe 1/1000 with a useful passive and pretty much perfect stats.
Like ActionJunkie said, ranged classes don't need Ice Climbers. Monks have Epiphany, Crusaders have Akkarat's Champion, and Barbarian are almost always wearing Lut Socks.
Grated, I don't have Ice Climbers (I haven't found them at all yet!) but even if I'd find them, right now I have not a single class on which I would use them. Not sure about 2.1 though, but just saying... I get by without Ice Climbers and haven't missed them or felt a strong desire to get them ever.
They're pretty great on a MM-wizard. Frees a defensive skill slot to break CC (teleport), which means you either get another defensive, or just another dmg ability. Not a lot of alternatives, either, for that specific spec (2 set cains being the only other one with legs/feet - new DD's means that isn't an option anymore, though). It's pretty undervalued how much you actually get slowed down/frozen etc, even as a ranged, doing everything "perfectly". It is true that it does not prevent the damage, but unless you're doing G30-35 rifts, then you're not going to be oneshotted by the initial application - you're going to get killed because you can't get out of subsequent shit fast enough.