YOU of all people know I rerolled my (almost) perfect MoonLight Ward 67 times before getting Crit Hit % damage stat! I was starting to bump up almost numerical improbability.
It would not surprise me at all if there is a bug or two present here ;-)
I spent 50+ Fiery Brimstones, and 500+ Iridescent Tears (that's how I spent most of what I had), but you don't see me going around stating how I know for a fact that the RNG in the game is broken.
And then I got a 90%+ Crit Dmg roll on my first try on my Golden Gorget. Now what? How do you balance that out? Oh getting on the first try is fine, but not getting after 50 is broken? So people just really want a "safety net" against RNG? Another one?
And the Moonlight Ward took 50+ tries and never gave me Crit Dmg. I had to settle for Int =|
If there's a bug, I'm absolutely in favour of people giving their finds and feelings on the matter, and letting Blizzard know that they should look into it.
But there's a huuuge difference between proposing something humbly and giving some data to back it up, and coming forward as a dick and stating beyond all reasonable doubt that "the game is broken, I know and whoever disagrees with me is wrong" sort of attitude. That's what we've mostly seen here. Absolutism and aggressiveness. That's why almost nobody agrees with it.
There is a less know statistical law called the Law of Truly Large Numbers (not the Law of Large Numbers), that basically says: Given enough samples, any outrageous thing is likely to happen. So if you enchant dozens and dozens of items, you have to get unlucky some of the times. Now, multiply this across the whole player base. (This was the reason they changed the drop rate of legendaries to slowly increase over time if you don't find one for a long time.)
Anyways, my personal experience with the Mystic is fairly favorable. She gives me what I want reasonably quickly enough most of the time.
I reacted to the fact that Finder wanted to have something "useful" instead of the +XP from monsters killed. Doesn't he realize that it's a secondary stat he's re-rolling, which basically aren't useful... ever. =P
Yeah I really hope he clicked on the question mark and checked what affixes were possible before flying into a rage because he didn't get the one he wanted after a few rolls...
Almsot everything that i wanted to say has already been said by others.
Not enough data to support your point...
Mystic is a great tool, basically allows us to maximize the potential of our gear relatively very easily.Some would even argue that with the smart loot system and the mystic enchants, it is currently too easy to get good gear.
But there's a huuuge difference between proposing something humbly and giving some data to back it up, and coming forward as a dick and stating beyond all reasonable doubt that "the game is broken, I know and whoever disagrees with me is wrong" sort of attitude. That's what we've mostly seen here. Absolutism and aggressiveness. That's why almost nobody agrees with it.
In a random system (or a system that closely approximates random) there are going to be "good streaks" and "bad streaks" regardless. Oddly enough, working at a casino, I hear what amounts to essentially the same whining all the time. "The card shufflers are rigged." "I can never win here." Sure, maybe YOU, personally, have never won at the casino, but there are plenty of people who have. The fallacy amounts to assuming that your experience is the status quo.
What he's proposing is that there is some kind of bizarre bug associated with something that no one would think of that is making his "random" experience not actually random and just bad. That is pretty difficult to prove because anyone who understands RNG or pRNG knows that in any sample there's going to be the "good luck guy" and the "bad luck guy." With millions of people playing there are going to be tens of thousands of each. So even if he can prove that he has "bad luck" that doesn't actually prove that the system is broken.
And that's why people respond to this crap with "RNG is RNG." Unless you can actually prove that, in this case, having some weird circumstance (like the last two letters of your characer's name being __, for example) alters how your enchanting pans out... there really isn't anything to bitch about. But simply suggesting that could be the case based solely on your individual experience, not even attempting to corroborate it with others who share that circumstance, its just silliness.
There is a reason that humans believed that the Earth was flat. It wasn't because they were stupid. It was for lack proof otherwise. Even though the round Earth theory was met with resistance, because there was concrete proof, it became accepted among intelligent people pretty quickly and, therefore, became the norm to our understanding. In the absence of that proof we'd still believe the Earth was flat. Key in changing peoples minds is the proof.
I spent 50+ Fiery Brimstones, and 500+ Iridescent Tears (that's how I spent most of what I had), but you don't see me going around stating how I know for a fact that the RNG in the game is broken.
I find it interesting to note we had difficulty on the very same item. If I were a betting man, I'd bet the game weighs Int and vitality more heavily on mlw because the item lacks both as an artifact of the smart loot system I bet they are using to save on development costs. Ironically, the op may be correct that the mystic system isnt random at all, but weighted. Maybe.
OP actually has a valid point here, I also have been having similar issues there's no way it's just bad RNG. Just last night I rolled my 20 sided die 67 times before rolling a 12! FIX THIS BUG ASAP!!!
rng is exactly that. iv rolled soct on first-third try with 15 weapons in a row and then got an upgrade and it took 20 rolls to get it. then the next time i got a weapon for a diff char, 3rd roll soct. its the same with legs. one day i will get legs to drop almost 10 minutes apart and the next day its 1 an hour. shit happens man. dont b*tch about it on forums making it out to be what its not cuz then you just look stupid af.
quite enjoy reading the absurdities that are proposed here.
May it be as simple as that it weighs certain stats higher than others, as to make it more rare to actually roll the bis stats?
Also, as so many others have said, rng, is just that. R N G.
Now. The above is a simple way of putting it. A bit more in depth would be, how many different outcomes does each different stat have.
I am completely sure that main stats, Life on hit, Life regen and so on got EXTREME ammounts of chances compared to say attack speed or critl
Life on hit on my main hand etc: 2276-2971
Int on my main hand: 626-750
Compare the odds on the above if i had to reroll. if i can have ANY number inbetween both of em like i assume is the case, then the odds of getting life on hit are quite a bit larger than int.
This ofc can be debated if that is how it works, as it may also be working in the way that it first chooses a stat, and then rolls. Even if this is the case, the odds of you rolling that 1 stat out of 10+, are abysmal.
Finally, please, PLEASE dont whine untill you try to reroll one of the wiz sources or similar items (legendary ofc) that can have any of the % spell dmg affixes. THAT is a living rng hell i swear.
It is possible that there are bugs, people shouldn't always discount things as simple RNG. Just look at mighty belts/xbows dropping.
I wonder if anybody else has had a similar problem: I like 1h xbows on DH and I want to level my DH up, so I tried rerolling a few 1h xbows that had dex + socket for lower level req. I have rolled several to the million+ gold reroll range and haven't gotten lower level req. Has anybody else experienced this as well?
While a single person's experience is certainly not enough to criticize D3's PRNG system, this does not mean the system doesn't have any issues. There are frequent issues in cryptographic systems where the PRNG is not quite as random as expected, leading to theoretical or practical attacks.
The Mystic has been sometimes nice and sometimes frustrating for me, but I don't have enough of a sample to seriously comment on that point. I still have my doubts about their PRNG seed, though, because of the way legendaries have been dropping for me and my clanmates. We often get the same legendary several times : I got two Nailbiters, 2 Wyrdwards and 3 Odyn's Son over the course of 25 legs, for instance, while a guildie got 2 pairs of Depth Diggers, 3 Blackguards and 2 or 3 Nemesis Bracers. It almost feels like there's a character- or account-specific seed.
"Feels" being the operative word, of course, as you mentioned, without extensive data, there's no way to know, but I'd be curious to know whether anyone else has a similar - or distinctly different - experience.
While a single person's experience is certainly not enough to criticize D3's PRNG system, this does not mean the system doesn't have any issues.
Right. But if he's not willing to catalog his information and attempt to corroborate it with others then he's setting himself up for "RNG is RNG" comments and ridicule because he's not doing the one thing that's of severe importance in this particular discussion... generating a significant enough, and scientific enough, sample.
Just having to reroll a single item 40 times isn't proof of anything. In fact, a good pRNG system will have that as a possibility, even if it's a long shot. So, in small doses, that experience actually helps prove that things might be working properly.
Now. The above is a simple way of putting it. A bit more in depth would be, how many different outcomes does each different stat have.
I am completely sure that main stats, Life on hit, Life regen and so on got EXTREME ammounts of chances compared to say attack speed or critl
Life on hit on my main hand etc: 2276-2971
Int on my main hand: 626-750
Compare the odds on the above if i had to reroll. if i can have ANY number inbetween both of em like i assume is the case, then the odds of getting life on hit are quite a bit larger than int.
This ofc can be debated if that is how it works, as it may also be working in the way that it first chooses a stat, and then rolls. Even if this is the case, the odds of you rolling that 1 stat out of 10+, are abysmal.
I've wondered if this is the case myself. If anyone has any information from Blizzard specifying whether a single roll or double roll system is used, please share.
Example: You want to re-roll a primary, and there are 4 possible choices: A, B, C and D. You currently have A, but it is still a possibility. You want D, so you assume you have a 25% chance (I know, it actually chooses 2 each roll, but this is just an illustration). This would be the case if it were a double roll, or if A, B, C and D all have only a single value.
What if Blizzard uses a single roll system? What type of system would this be? Let's say A has a possible value of 1-10, B can range from 11-20, C can range from 21-24, and D can only roll with a value of 25. In a single roll system, both the type of attribute and the value of that attribute would be determined in a single roll. In other words, the RNG rolls and produces a number from 1 to 25. Values 1-10 would add primary A, and would also determine that the value of A would be 1, 2, 3,...,9, 10. This would cause A and B to appear more often simply because they have a wider range of possibilities. Meanwhile D would have a much smaller change of being chosen since it only rolls with one possible value.
I would hope it doesn't work this way, as sockets would be very rare, while attributes with large ranges would dominate. So, has any information been given out on how the rolls work?
While a single person's experience is certainly not enough to criticize D3's PRNG system, this does not mean the system doesn't have any issues. There are frequent issues in cryptographic systems where the PRNG is not quite as random as expected, leading to theoretical or practical attacks.
The Mystic has been sometimes nice and sometimes frustrating for me, but I don't have enough of a sample to seriously comment on that point. I still have my doubts about their PRNG seed, though, because of the way legendaries have been dropping for me and my clanmates. We often get the same legendary several times : I got two Nailbiters, 2 Wyrdwards and 3 Odyn's Son over the course of 25 legs, for instance, while a guildie got 2 pairs of Depth Diggers, 3 Blackguards and 2 or 3 Nemesis Bracers. It almost feels like there's a character- or account-specific seed.
"Feels" being the operative word, of course, as you mentioned, without extensive data, there's no way to know, but I'd be curious to know whether anyone else has a similar - or distinctly different - experience.
I definitely agree with you here.
Just lemme clarify something, because maybe my post was a bit too blunt and didn't convey my point of view correctly, so people are getting the wrong idea here.
I'm not saying there are absolutely no issues at all with enchanting. As I have pointed out in previous posts, I have also been through some bad luck streaks (20-30 enchants and not getting the desired stat - not even a bad roll).
But in this particular thread, from a user that has a history of mostly complaining, I find it hard to believe the report to be completely honest and true. If you show me a video of someone doing 100 enchanting attempts and getting +experience (which they shouldn't even when trying to get CC/CHD/Mainstat, since that's a secondary roll) onevery single attempt, as was kinda hinted at the OP, then I'm all for making a huge deal out of it and make sure Blizzard fixes it asap!
If instead people wanna supply (what seem like) biased reports as evidence about how they didn't get "the roll" they wanted after a couple tries (aka: got angry because mommy didn't give them their ice cream and want a safety net on everything), then went on to complain on forums about how the entire system is "broken", with 0 knowledge of the actual code behind it - that's when I can't just watch and have to step in. Because we've had enough people spreading this sort of misinformation based purely on "feelings" on D3V. As was explained before (in shaggy's post) randomness has a stong tendency of affecting our brains and making us very, very biased. See this recent thread.
I spent 50+ Fiery Brimstones, and 500+ Iridescent Tears (that's how I spent most of what I had), but you don't see me going around stating how I know for a fact that the RNG in the game is broken.
And then I got a 90%+ Crit Dmg roll on my first try on my Golden Gorget. Now what? How do you balance that out? Oh getting on the first try is fine, but not getting after 50 is broken? So people just really want a "safety net" against RNG? Another one?
And the Moonlight Ward took 50+ tries and never gave me Crit Dmg. I had to settle for Int =|
If there's a bug, I'm absolutely in favour of people giving their finds and feelings on the matter, and letting Blizzard know that they should look into it.
But there's a huuuge difference between proposing something humbly and giving some data to back it up, and coming forward as a dick and stating beyond all reasonable doubt that "the game is broken, I know and whoever disagrees with me is wrong" sort of attitude. That's what we've mostly seen here. Absolutism and aggressiveness. That's why almost nobody agrees with it.
There is a less know statistical law called the Law of Truly Large Numbers (not the Law of Large Numbers), that basically says: Given enough samples, any outrageous thing is likely to happen. So if you enchant dozens and dozens of items, you have to get unlucky some of the times. Now, multiply this across the whole player base. (This was the reason they changed the drop rate of legendaries to slowly increase over time if you don't find one for a long time.)
Anyways, my personal experience with the Mystic is fairly favorable. She gives me what I want reasonably quickly enough most of the time.
Not enough data to support your point...
Mystic is a great tool, basically allows us to maximize the potential of our gear relatively very easily.Some would even argue that with the smart loot system and the mystic enchants, it is currently too easy to get good gear.
And by the way...
Weighted = made heavy or heavier
Weighed = To measure the weight of
What he's proposing is that there is some kind of bizarre bug associated with something that no one would think of that is making his "random" experience not actually random and just bad. That is pretty difficult to prove because anyone who understands RNG or pRNG knows that in any sample there's going to be the "good luck guy" and the "bad luck guy." With millions of people playing there are going to be tens of thousands of each. So even if he can prove that he has "bad luck" that doesn't actually prove that the system is broken.
And that's why people respond to this crap with "RNG is RNG." Unless you can actually prove that, in this case, having some weird circumstance (like the last two letters of your characer's name being __, for example) alters how your enchanting pans out... there really isn't anything to bitch about. But simply suggesting that could be the case based solely on your individual experience, not even attempting to corroborate it with others who share that circumstance, its just silliness.
There is a reason that humans believed that the Earth was flat. It wasn't because they were stupid. It was for lack proof otherwise. Even though the round Earth theory was met with resistance, because there was concrete proof, it became accepted among intelligent people pretty quickly and, therefore, became the norm to our understanding. In the absence of that proof we'd still believe the Earth was flat. Key in changing peoples minds is the proof.
May it be as simple as that it weighs certain stats higher than others, as to make it more rare to actually roll the bis stats?
Also, as so many others have said, rng, is just that. R N G.
Now. The above is a simple way of putting it. A bit more in depth would be, how many different outcomes does each different stat have.
I am completely sure that main stats, Life on hit, Life regen and so on got EXTREME ammounts of chances compared to say attack speed or critl
Life on hit on my main hand etc: 2276-2971
Int on my main hand: 626-750
Compare the odds on the above if i had to reroll. if i can have ANY number inbetween both of em like i assume is the case, then the odds of getting life on hit are quite a bit larger than int.
This ofc can be debated if that is how it works, as it may also be working in the way that it first chooses a stat, and then rolls. Even if this is the case, the odds of you rolling that 1 stat out of 10+, are abysmal.
Finally, please, PLEASE dont whine untill you try to reroll one of the wiz sources or similar items (legendary ofc) that can have any of the % spell dmg affixes. THAT is a living rng hell i swear.
I wonder if anybody else has had a similar problem: I like 1h xbows on DH and I want to level my DH up, so I tried rerolling a few 1h xbows that had dex + socket for lower level req. I have rolled several to the million+ gold reroll range and haven't gotten lower level req. Has anybody else experienced this as well?
The Mystic has been sometimes nice and sometimes frustrating for me, but I don't have enough of a sample to seriously comment on that point. I still have my doubts about their PRNG seed, though, because of the way legendaries have been dropping for me and my clanmates. We often get the same legendary several times : I got two Nailbiters, 2 Wyrdwards and 3 Odyn's Son over the course of 25 legs, for instance, while a guildie got 2 pairs of Depth Diggers, 3 Blackguards and 2 or 3 Nemesis Bracers. It almost feels like there's a character- or account-specific seed.
"Feels" being the operative word, of course, as you mentioned, without extensive data, there's no way to know, but I'd be curious to know whether anyone else has a similar - or distinctly different - experience.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Taliesyn-2517/hero/66020932
And it was fine.
Do you want to know why? Because its still way way way faster than finding a 2,3k dps 1hand again with socket.
They should even nerf the chance at the mystic to get your desired stat.
Just having to reroll a single item 40 times isn't proof of anything. In fact, a good pRNG system will have that as a possibility, even if it's a long shot. So, in small doses, that experience actually helps prove that things might be working properly.
Example: You want to re-roll a primary, and there are 4 possible choices: A, B, C and D. You currently have A, but it is still a possibility. You want D, so you assume you have a 25% chance (I know, it actually chooses 2 each roll, but this is just an illustration). This would be the case if it were a double roll, or if A, B, C and D all have only a single value.
What if Blizzard uses a single roll system? What type of system would this be? Let's say A has a possible value of 1-10, B can range from 11-20, C can range from 21-24, and D can only roll with a value of 25. In a single roll system, both the type of attribute and the value of that attribute would be determined in a single roll. In other words, the RNG rolls and produces a number from 1 to 25. Values 1-10 would add primary A, and would also determine that the value of A would be 1, 2, 3,...,9, 10. This would cause A and B to appear more often simply because they have a wider range of possibilities. Meanwhile D would have a much smaller change of being chosen since it only rolls with one possible value.
I would hope it doesn't work this way, as sockets would be very rare, while attributes with large ranges would dominate. So, has any information been given out on how the rolls work?
Just lemme clarify something, because maybe my post was a bit too blunt and didn't convey my point of view correctly, so people are getting the wrong idea here.
I'm not saying there are absolutely no issues at all with enchanting. As I have pointed out in previous posts, I have also been through some bad luck streaks (20-30 enchants and not getting the desired stat - not even a bad roll).
But in this particular thread, from a user that has a history of mostly complaining, I find it hard to believe the report to be completely honest and true. If you show me a video of someone doing 100 enchanting attempts and getting +experience (which they shouldn't even when trying to get CC/CHD/Mainstat, since that's a secondary roll) onevery single attempt, as was kinda hinted at the OP, then I'm all for making a huge deal out of it and make sure Blizzard fixes it asap!
If instead people wanna supply (what seem like) biased reports as evidence about how they didn't get "the roll" they wanted after a couple tries (aka: got angry because mommy didn't give them their ice cream and want a safety net on everything), then went on to complain on forums about how the entire system is "broken", with 0 knowledge of the actual code behind it - that's when I can't just watch and have to step in. Because we've had enough people spreading this sort of misinformation based purely on "feelings" on D3V. As was explained before (in shaggy's post) randomness has a stong tendency of affecting our brains and making us very, very biased. See this recent thread.
You'll get it eventually, as did I.