And they confirms what i been saying, its all because of their long term plan of itemization, its a bullet we have to bite for a better long term balance. They got to plan ahead for other expansion(s) this time, otherwise we are gona have another vanilla D3 on our laps. Forget about the vanilla debacle and let them fine tune their actual new vision for the game, judge the concept when it stands on its own, not how it affects the old vanilla gear for the first weeks. Eventually the past will be in the past. Buffing everything "because" is not an answer either.
If they had the time to go with the less painful idea of making them roll only lvl 60 stats, it would be slightly better, but lest be honest here, most of the current upset people would still be upset, they arent upset because they cant play with their lvl 60 gear reroll for fun like Maka mentioned, which i agree with is a downer. Most complainers stock piled a bunch of Echoing fury and crap, they wanted to exploit a huge loop hole and got shut down, making the reroll lvl 60 only would still shut down that loop hole and we would still be here arguing with them, except we would have the reasonable people that only object to the change for the right reasons also on our side.
Note that they not only provide the honest reason for why this decision was made, but also shed light on the question why 900+ish main stats and 3k DPS weapons were nerfed:
Inflation can, at a certain point, cause numerical values to become less meaningful. When numbers get too big, it's often overwhelming. During the Friends & Family Beta, we received exactly that kind of feedback from both our internal and external testers. The jump in power wastoosignificant, and the journey lost some of its oomph in the process. That's why we scaled it back.
So after all, this long debate concludes with three insights:
1) Buffing all level 70 items to F&F stats will not be a solution because it'll make the transition from 60 to 70 gear even less smooth.
2) The reason why legacy items can't be enchanted at all, rather than lowering the enchanting affix range for legacy items, is because there isn't enough time for balancing legacy enchanting.
3) This solution might come with some drawbacks, but it will only affect the transition from 60 to 70 which will be done for most people on March 25 in the early morning. One of RoS's goals is to take the unbalanced D3V items out of the game and introduce a new concept of itemization, and this process is now sped up a bit.
In my opinion, I'd rather see this drastic change than a months-long balancing process, with the only purpose to have a "smoother" transition to level 70 gear. The danger here is that this balance isn't struck well and enchanted level 60 items jeopardize the effort of loot 2.0 to achieve a more balanced loot system. Also keep in mind that we talk about prolonging the beta just for balancing a transition process which takes a couple of hours. Once you are 70, do a couple of bounties, gamble some rares, enchant them, and the huge majority of your level 60 gear will be gone. Only those who have perfect quintfecta rings/amulets/gloves and an insane Witching Hour might wait for a legendary to replace said items. This entire discussion actually doesn't even affect the vast majority of the playerbase at all :-)
We really need to acknowledge that this entire debate has absolutely no influence whatsoever on RoS endgame.
No, BIS 70>enchanted BIS 60. Not all 70 items have the potential to be better than enchanted BIS 60 items. There are many examples in this thread if you want to look for them.
In my opinion, the only real debate is why you assume your information/feedback is correct and other players' are wrong. You know, there are ways to give Blizzard feedback other than the battle.net forums: fan forums, videos/streams, e-mail... Do you know how many people gave feedback regarding this issue? Probably no. So do not say that Blizzard is making changes based off incorrect information/feedback when you are the one who don't have any basis for your argument.
No, BIS 70>enchanted BIS 60. Not all 70 items have the potential to be better than enchanted BIS 60 items. There are many examples in this thread if you want to look for them.
In my opinion, the only real debate is why you assume your information/feedback is correct and other players' are wrong. You know, there are ways to give Blizzard feedback other than the battle.net forums: fan forums, videos/streams, e-mail... Do you know how many people gave feedback regarding this issue? Probably no. So do not say that Blizzard is making changes based off incorrect information/feedback when you are the one who don't have any basis for your argument.
Quote from Jaetch» There are many Legacy items that qualify as "disproportionately strong" when enchanted. These include:
- Chantodo's Will (innate APoC and high APS)
- Calamity (high IAS and crit damage)
- Echoing Fury (high APS if all you care about is DPS and not its annoying Fear)
- high-end trifecta or quadfecta jewelry pieces
...etc.
Of course, some level 70 items in the current Closed Beta can beat out enchanted Legacy gear, but that's the problem. Only some of the new items are good enough.
"The last thing I want to say is that I don't disagree that a hardcore player who spend lots of time or resources on D3v to have a bit of advantage over people who hasn't, and we already have the advantage, being para 1000 on live and have good lv60 items to start with (and hopefully a better knowledge of the game), I will be able to level up and start doing harder difficulties quicker than most of you. That's the advantage I deserve. But if owning lv60 items become a pre-condition to play certain powerful builds, or using some lv60 items resulting in dealing more DPS than BIS lv70 version, it then create an issue. I like the idea of starting the next level of farming knowing doesn't matter whether I have spend money or flip or store anything before RoS, as long as I farm hard in RoS, I will progress just fine."
Shouldn't 70 > 60? What exactly is wrong with that?
Ever since we knew the expansion would go up to lvl 70 (WoW-style, instead of LoD style), we knew its items were going to "eventually" (and that's the keyword here) outclass vanilla items.If anything, when the first people had access to the RoS beta, they complained that they were still using their MP 9-10 gear even at lvls 66+, hence not hunting or upgrading anything for a big part of the expansion's storyline.
And even so, that's not the main point of the argument. The point is how "some lvl 60s in particular, when enchanted, were beating a lot of near-BiS lvl 70 items, because of the changes to the affix systems". It was never about 60 > 70, 60 = 70, 70 > 60
Shouldn't 70 > 60? What exactly is wrong with that?
Ever since we knew the expansion would go up to lvl 70 (WoW-style, instead of LoD style), we knew its items were going to "eventually" (and that's the keyword here) outclass vanilla items.If anything, when the first people had access to the RoS beta, they complained that they were still using their MP 9-10 gear even at lvls 66+, hence not hunting or upgrading anything for a big part of the expansion's storyline. And even so, that's not the
Agreed. I have no idea why he keeps mentioning 70>60. And if 70>60 in all cases, what does the change matter then? It wont effect 99.9% of your play time which will be played at max level.
Level 60 gear, quite simply, has very different (and in many cases, completely broken) rules for rolling stats.
There has to be some kind of separation between gloves that can, essentially, roll 6 primary stats, and other gloves that are capped at 3 or 4 primary stats otherwise the ones that have 6 primary stats OBVIOUSLY become better than 95%+ of the 3 or 4 primary stat gloves. It's just common sense.
This isn't simply a case of "just buff level 70 shit" - it's not exactly genius to suggest MORE stat inflation, by the way - it's more of a case of "unless we do something, a handful of level 60 stuff is going to be super-desireable because we've completely changed HOW items are generated." SOME level 60 items basically have a massive loophole in how they roll as compared to their loot 2.0 counterparts. Something has to be done whether we like it or not.
It would be ABSURD for people to be rocking BiS-type items day 1 in RoS because they didn't do anything. This is a clear example of doing something > doing nothing, even if the "something" is controversial.
EDIT
I mean, honestly, do you people really want MORE instances of Legacy Nat's? I'd think it's much better for the game if they avoid stuff like that. Strangely enough, Legacy Nat's never got nerfed because people use the "I spent so much time attaining this so you can't nerf it!" logic... even though most of us knew the set bonus would still be OP. When did people start to expect that a level 60 item would have a shot at being useable at level 70? I sure as hell never found a level 50 item and expected it to compete with level 60 items... because that seems patently shortsighted and ignorant.
Level 60 gear, quite simply, has very different (and in many cases, completely broken) rules for rolling stats.There has to be some kind of separation between gloves that can, essentially, roll 6 primary stats, and other gloves that are capped at 3 or 4 primary stats otherwise the ones that have 6 primary stats OBVIOUSLY become better than 95%+ of the 3 or 4 primary stat gloves. It's just common sense.This isn't simply a case of "just buff level 70 shit" - it's not exactly genius to suggest MORE stat inflation, by the way - it's more of a case of "unless we do something, a handful of level 60 stuff is going to be super-desireable because we've completely changed HOW items are generated. SOME level 60 items basically have a massive loophole in how they roll as compared to their loot 2.0 counterparts. Something has to be done whether we like it or not.It would be ABSURD for people to be rocking BiS-type items day 1 in RoS because they didn't do anything. This is a clear example of doing something > doing nothing, even if the "something" is controversial.
Level 60 gear, quite simply, has very different (and in many cases, completely broken) rules for rolling stats.
There has to be some kind of separation between gloves that can, essentially, roll 6 primary stats, and other gloves that are capped at 3 or 4 primary stats otherwise the ones that have 6 primary stats OBVIOUSLY become better than 95%+ of the 3 or 4 primary stat gloves. It's just common sense.
This isn't simply a case of "just buff level 70 shit" - it's not exactly genius to suggest MORE stat inflation, by the way - it's more of a case of "unless we do something, a handful of level 60 stuff is going to be super-desireable because we've completely changed HOW items are generated." SOME level 60 items basically have a massive loophole in how they roll as compared to their loot 2.0 counterparts. Something has to be done whether we like it or not.
It would be ABSURD for people to be rocking BiS-type items day 1 in RoS because they didn't do anything. This is a clear example of doing something > doing nothing, even if the "something" is controversial.
And even Shaggy nailed it. I wonder how many times we have to say this. Old itemization needs to die, period. Loot 2.0 items will roll 4 primary affixes max, and you need to choose what stats you want because you can't have everything on one item like in Classic (gloves, jewels and weapons are the worst offender). If i have a trifecta glove, you bet i would try to roll a primary stat to level 70 and bam, i have a close to BiS piece of gear with high crit chance, crit damage and attack speed and maybe All Resistance too.... Something that wouldn't exist in the new itemization because all those stats share the same category.
And i think, as i said in a previous post, that in a month into RoS, we will forget about this problem because we already replaced all our stuff with upgrades and enchanted them to our liking.
I'm really starting to feel the enchanting legacy items is being blown out of the water.
Would I have liked to enchant some current gear or enchant some items from my stash? Sure, it would be fun experimenting early on, having fun, then run train on monsters.
But apart of me feels like this is turning into a huge distraction. There are plenty of things to address and I'm not sure exerting all this energy on enchanting legacy items is worth it. The main idea behind it is simple, just make loot 2.0 epic, and most people will shrug off legacy items.
We already ran how many hours with a witching hour? Just make the new loot as epic. Easier said then done, but hey I'm not the one making a fortune for making the game, I'm the guy giving you money to hopefully deliver me an epic game. A
I'm really starting to feel the enchanting legacy items is being blown out of the water.
Would I have liked to enchant some current gear or enchant some items from my stash? Sure, it would be fun experimenting early on, having fun, then run train on monsters.
But apart of me feels like this is turning into a huge distraction. There are plenty of things to address and I'm not sure exerting all this energy on enchanting legacy items is worth it. The main idea behind it is simple, just make loot 2.0 epic, and most people will shrug off legacy items.
We already ran how many hours with a witching hour? Just make the new loot as epic. Easier said then done, but hey I'm not the one making a fortune for making the game, I'm the guy giving you money to hopefully deliver me an epic game. A
I think people are angry at the philosophy. I think those angry after having discovered the trick to create wildly overpowered level 60 items will get angry and their anger has no weight. I think that's why they made this rule, to cut the legs off of those tricksters. so in that respect its OK to put in a hard fast rule
But it does not address the underlying model of the game.
They keep resetting the gear. first they design legendaries during development. and they fucking SUCK. Then the redesign them, and a very small portion of them surge past the rest in terms of power. Many still completely suck. Then trifecta gear absolutely steamrolls all other gear, all other gear sucks then they roll out "demonic Essence gear" which is kind fun to chase after for a while. but 90% of all the crafting still sucks from the beginning.
So now whats their next plan? lets take 100% of all the items ever generated pre patch, and 100% of peoples interest in the game voraciously tracking these items down and ban them from our next "gear block" which also happens to be the most interesting one. It includes the brand new enchanting system.
it just seems like FFS....they are the "game masters" overseeing our table top adventure....so....get with it and master the fucking game. It seems like they are zig zagging all over the place with out a clue in the world. as if they have never made a world consuming large scale online rolepayign game before. except they have. probably more than once LOL.
I've mostly been lurking, but I love this change. I would always put overall game balance and uniformity over "keeping what I already earned", even if it was to my own detriment. I hated [Legacy] items, just seems tacky. Same with Diablo 2 and the whole 1.08 versions of this and that unique/set. Such inelegant game design just to spare some players hurt feelings. Just force the item to reroll to the new standards and suck it up. People will whine, but if it is in the overall best interest of the game so be it. To me, Blizzard should not be in the business of keeping people's emotional state in tact. If the item is broken have the determination to own that mistake and fix it in all instances it exists.
If they had the time to go with the less painful idea of making them roll only lvl 60 stats, it would be slightly better, but lest be honest here, most of the current upset people would still be upset, they arent upset because they cant play with their lvl 60 gear reroll for fun like Maka mentioned, which i agree with is a downer. Most complainers stock piled a bunch of Echoing fury and crap, they wanted to exploit a huge loop hole and got shut down, making the reroll lvl 60 only would still shut down that loop hole and we would still be here arguing with them, except we would have the reasonable people that only object to the change for the right reasons also on our side.
Note that they not only provide the honest reason for why this decision was made, but also shed light on the question why 900+ish main stats and 3k DPS weapons were nerfed:
Originally Posted by (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Inflation can, at a certain point, cause numerical values to become less meaningful. When numbers get too big, it's often overwhelming. During the Friends & Family Beta, we received exactly that kind of feedback from both our internal and external testers. The jump in power wastoosignificant, and the journey lost some of its oomph in the process. That's why we scaled it back.
Which is what I suspected in post #27 in this thread.
So after all, this long debate concludes with three insights:
1) Buffing all level 70 items to F&F stats will not be a solution because it'll make the transition from 60 to 70 gear even less smooth.
2) The reason why legacy items can't be enchanted at all, rather than lowering the enchanting affix range for legacy items, is because there isn't enough time for balancing legacy enchanting.
3) This solution might come with some drawbacks, but it will only affect the transition from 60 to 70 which will be done for most people on March 25 in the early morning. One of RoS's goals is to take the unbalanced D3V items out of the game and introduce a new concept of itemization, and this process is now sped up a bit.
In my opinion, I'd rather see this drastic change than a months-long balancing process, with the only purpose to have a "smoother" transition to level 70 gear. The danger here is that this balance isn't struck well and enchanted level 60 items jeopardize the effort of loot 2.0 to achieve a more balanced loot system. Also keep in mind that we talk about prolonging the beta just for balancing a transition process which takes a couple of hours. Once you are 70, do a couple of bounties, gamble some rares, enchant them, and the huge majority of your level 60 gear will be gone. Only those who have perfect quintfecta rings/amulets/gloves and an insane Witching Hour might wait for a legendary to replace said items. This entire discussion actually doesn't even affect the vast majority of the playerbase at all :-)
We really need to acknowledge that this entire debate has absolutely no influence whatsoever on RoS endgame.
The first rule of Topic is - you talk about the Topic.
And not ask cheapshot questions there isn't an answer that would satisfy a multitude of opinions.
Ha. Bagstone.
Yes. It's totally fine to talk about endgame. In a topic about endgame.
And from this post onward: on topic!
Ha. Bagstone.
70 > 60
/debate
the only REAL debate is why Blizzard continues to make game changes based off incorrect information/feedback from players.
http://www.youtube.com/mannercookie
http://www.twitch.tv/mannercookie
In my opinion, the only real debate is why you assume your information/feedback is correct and other players' are wrong. You know, there are ways to give Blizzard feedback other than the battle.net forums: fan forums, videos/streams, e-mail... Do you know how many people gave feedback regarding this issue? Probably no. So do not say that Blizzard is making changes based off incorrect information/feedback when you are the one who don't have any basis for your argument.
http://www.twitch.tv/mannercookie/c/3685263
1.5 hour explanation for you
Cheers
http://www.youtube.com/mannercookie
http://www.twitch.tv/mannercookie
No need for a hours-long video.
Cheers.
Edit: Also found this: http://www.diablofans.com/forums/diablo-iii-general-forums/diablo-iii-general-discussion/80666-blizzard-removes-enchanting-for-60-items-oh-but-2?comment=146
"The last thing I want to say is that I don't disagree that a hardcore player who spend lots of time or resources on D3v to have a bit of advantage over people who hasn't, and we already have the advantage, being para 1000 on live and have good lv60 items to start with (and hopefully a better knowledge of the game), I will be able to level up and start doing harder difficulties quicker than most of you. That's the advantage I deserve. But if owning lv60 items become a pre-condition to play certain powerful builds, or using some lv60 items resulting in dealing more DPS than BIS lv70 version, it then create an issue. I like the idea of starting the next level of farming knowing doesn't matter whether I have spend money or flip or store anything before RoS, as long as I farm hard in RoS, I will progress just fine."
Ever since we knew the expansion would go up to lvl 70 (WoW-style, instead of LoD style), we knew its items were going to "eventually" (and that's the keyword here) outclass vanilla items.If anything, when the first people had access to the RoS beta, they complained that they were still using their MP 9-10 gear even at lvls 66+, hence not hunting or upgrading anything for a big part of the expansion's storyline.
And even so, that's not the main point of the argument. The point is how "some lvl 60s in particular, when enchanted, were beating a lot of near-BiS lvl 70 items, because of the changes to the affix systems". It was never about 60 > 70, 60 = 70, 70 > 60
There has to be some kind of separation between gloves that can, essentially, roll 6 primary stats, and other gloves that are capped at 3 or 4 primary stats otherwise the ones that have 6 primary stats OBVIOUSLY become better than 95%+ of the 3 or 4 primary stat gloves. It's just common sense.
This isn't simply a case of "just buff level 70 shit" - it's not exactly genius to suggest MORE stat inflation, by the way - it's more of a case of "unless we do something, a handful of level 60 stuff is going to be super-desireable because we've completely changed HOW items are generated." SOME level 60 items basically have a massive loophole in how they roll as compared to their loot 2.0 counterparts. Something has to be done whether we like it or not.
It would be ABSURD for people to be rocking BiS-type items day 1 in RoS because they didn't do anything. This is a clear example of doing something > doing nothing, even if the "something" is controversial.
EDIT
I mean, honestly, do you people really want MORE instances of Legacy Nat's? I'd think it's much better for the game if they avoid stuff like that. Strangely enough, Legacy Nat's never got nerfed because people use the "I spent so much time attaining this so you can't nerf it!" logic... even though most of us knew the set bonus would still be OP. When did people start to expect that a level 60 item would have a shot at being useable at level 70? I sure as hell never found a level 50 item and expected it to compete with level 60 items... because that seems patently shortsighted and ignorant.
And i think, as i said in a previous post, that in a month into RoS, we will forget about this problem because we already replaced all our stuff with upgrades and enchanted them to our liking.
I really think this is the solution at this point.
wipe the gold,exp,60 items.
wipe it all
http://www.youtube.com/mannercookie
http://www.twitch.tv/mannercookie
Would I have liked to enchant some current gear or enchant some items from my stash? Sure, it would be fun experimenting early on, having fun, then run train on monsters.
But apart of me feels like this is turning into a huge distraction. There are plenty of things to address and I'm not sure exerting all this energy on enchanting legacy items is worth it. The main idea behind it is simple, just make loot 2.0 epic, and most people will shrug off legacy items.
We already ran how many hours with a witching hour? Just make the new loot as epic. Easier said then done, but hey I'm not the one making a fortune for making the game, I'm the guy giving you money to hopefully deliver me an epic game. A
But it does not address the underlying model of the game.
They keep resetting the gear. first they design legendaries during development. and they fucking SUCK. Then the redesign them, and a very small portion of them surge past the rest in terms of power. Many still completely suck. Then trifecta gear absolutely steamrolls all other gear, all other gear sucks then they roll out "demonic Essence gear" which is kind fun to chase after for a while. but 90% of all the crafting still sucks from the beginning.
So now whats their next plan? lets take 100% of all the items ever generated pre patch, and 100% of peoples interest in the game voraciously tracking these items down and ban them from our next "gear block" which also happens to be the most interesting one. It includes the brand new enchanting system.
it just seems like FFS....they are the "game masters" overseeing our table top adventure....so....get with it and master the fucking game. It seems like they are zig zagging all over the place with out a clue in the world. as if they have never made a world consuming large scale online rolepayign game before. except they have. probably more than once LOL.
TLDR: IMHO rah rah ****ing bullsh**t!! /angry !!
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