I still think that this is the right decision. Blizzard changed Loot 2.0 to avoid items with 6 perfect stats, just look how weapons were rolling in Vanilla.
It's harsh to not being able to enchant old items or not being able to use a particular build without an enchanted classic item but it's necessary to move away from the ultra stacked items that we had in this game. The sooner we forget about LS/CHD/Socket weapons and tri/quadrifecta jewels the better.
And i'm pretty sure after a month in RoS, this "problem" will be forgotten because we already found better stuff to gear our toons with.
Removing the option to dosen't solve anything. It just angers people. I'm sorry, but that is the truth.
Already explained in this thread what it solves, the lvl 60 items arent competitive with everything, but its competitive against many items, many items that dont have perfect stats according to the vanilla model of gear, which was a mistake from the start and they want to go away from. Quadfeca rings, cannot exist anymore, they still gives more raw DPS than most of the lvl 70 loot bar the most rare and very best.
Not solving it now is short sighting as seems to be the argument that it angers people, it angers people for like a month and than no one will care. They balanced themselves into a wall with crit/cd and AS. These stats were too over inflated on gear, if you keep adding expansion and inflating the number on the gear everytime, eventually everyones running around with 100% crit, 1000% crit damage and capped attack speed. If you dont add more of these stats every new tier, than no one even needs to get new gear.
They had 3 big ways to do that, remove the old crit/cd/ias as stats and turn them into rating that diminish in power for every level up you gain like in an MMO, so that you never hit the caps and need more of the stats that you find on stronger gear or do what they just did and kill the old itemisation mistake and make the dps rating much lower and spread out, meaning you can cap them, its harder, but youll be missing more stats doing it. The third one was having caps on these stats, caps that gear could not pass, people cried about that for pretty much the same reasons, "but my old gear", so they gave in and found something else. One way or another the old gear was gona go bye bye enchanted or not.
They went for the easy and quick way, the logical one if they didnt want to rework how these stats work. Its very, very short sighted to ask for them to buff loot 2.0 even more to work out the issue, that would be counter productive to what the change is addressing. Because evetually they have to do it, better in the first expansion than later.
But it makes some people angry is not a logical argument against their attempt to have a more balance and long term plan about itemization, if anything it shows that they did learn at least one lesson from vanillas mistake. Buffing the loot would just be making the same mistake twice.
Something that just popped into my head: what's the real danger here? Can someone give me some concrete examples of lvl60 gear that you would enchant to make it lvl70 torment gear? Because, and I may be completely off-base here, it seems to me that all this can be avoided if you make it so that when you enchant pre-Loot 2.0 gear you only get pre-Loot 2.0 rolls.
Again, I might be totally off base, so I'd like some concrete examples from people that are in the beta.
Exactly this...pleas give us examples of this amazing lvl 60 gear being enchanted so its better 10 levels later in T1 (70) or more...
My current legacy gear can be replaced at lvl 60....without reforging..I have found upgrades.
Please...give us examples...because even my lvl 61 perfect ammy was replaced.
Something that just popped into my head: what's the real danger here? Can someone give me some concrete examples of lvl60 gear that you would enchant to make it lvl70 torment gear? Because, and I may be completely off-base here, it seems to me that all this can be avoided if you make it so that when you enchant pre-Loot 2.0 gear you only get pre-Loot 2.0 rolls.
Again, I might be totally off base, so I'd like some concrete examples from people that are in the beta.
Most people complaining about the no reroll are also against the idea of rerolling to only lvl 60 stats (which would also fix the issue). I think for blizzard it has more to do with technicality, since they do want you to twink your gear with enchanting when you level up (as you did with gems). But they dont want to keep some of the lvl 60 pre 2.0 loot into the system with that function. It could very well be that they cannot turn that knob only for pre 2.0 loot, as evident from the beta for that fact that the patch will render even the loot 2.0 impossible to enchant on the beta as well if it dropped before the lastest patch. It sounds more like a technical reason than just for the hell of it.
If it was possible to make only pre loot 2.0 reroll only enchants to their level, it would fix it. But the people complaining would still be complaining and the result would be the same really. Its just a little band aid on their gaping wound.
Something that just popped into my head: what's the real danger here? Can someone give me some concrete examples of lvl60 gear that you would enchant to make it lvl70 torment gear? Because, and I may be completely off-base here, it seems to me that all this can be avoided if you make it so that when you enchant pre-Loot 2.0 gear you only get pre-Loot 2.0 rolls.
Again, I might be totally off base, so I'd like some concrete examples from people that are in the beta.
Exactly this...pleas give us examples of this amazing lvl 60 gear being enchanted so its better 10 levels later in T1 (70) or more...
My current legacy gear can be replaced at lvl 60....without reforging..I have found upgrades.
Please...give us examples...because even my lvl 61 perfect ammy was replaced.
Exemple were already given in the OP, by someone that is against the changes? Im not sure what you are looking for? A rerolled Calamity for exemple is more raw damage than most loot 2.0 weapons, the only way to beat it is find something with an appropriate new legendary effect that beats it, because on damage alone nothing does.
A witching hour with rerolled main stat is by far the best belt again raw damage wise, you lose alot of surviability, but thats a manageable trade, the only way to beat it is find very rare legendaries with a proc that will give you better potential, the difference is the witching hour provide its raw power to any build.
Most of these items arent the best, what blizzard clearly doesent like is that they do come pretty high up there. The diffrence between letting them be rerolled to lvl 70 or letting them being rerolled to lvl 60/not at all is this: Youll keep the lvl 60 item until you find the very best proc for that slot or youll probably drop it instantly when you hit lvl 70. Blizzard clearly want you to change ALL of your gear, sooner than later, which is what the change manifest.
Jaetch (in the first post), INVIS (in yesterdays's thread), and a few other people on the official forum have provided lots of examples for 60 loot being used on level 70. It seems that it's less of an issue for barbarians, especially since MannerCookie claims to be farming T6 with zero level 60 items, but for wizards and monks at least there are quite a few items that make it into endgame.
That's the more elegant solution to the issue but someone already mentioned that time is running short and the "fix" we will receive next beta patch was the faster to code. I think that RoS should have shipped in April or May to have a bit more of testing...
I was gonna say exactly that Bagstone. There's a dozen examples in the original post alone.
And Maka, some items are too good even with lower range main stat. There simply aren't a lot of Belts (even with massively inflated stats) that can compete with a 200 stat, 9% attackspeed, 50% crit dmg Witching Hour. That's similar to decent Tri/Quadfecta jewelry.
My gear is hardly top notch, and I played all the way to level 70 (about 2-4 hours?), and then farmed for 20-30 more hours without ever finding an upgrade (to some slots). That's not "trashing items around in the first half hour". That's killing a huge part about hunting items in lvls 60+. Now apply that to enchanted Gloves and Weapons.
The reason for all that guys is that,design wise, they are moving away from the mandatory 2-3 highly "scalable" stats. In the new Loot 2.0, they are limiting the stats some items can rolls, like crit damage on weapons. Every transition system is hard to adapt to (that's true for most law systems too). They have to find a way to implement the new ruleswithouthaving us "stuck in the past". Inflating stats will only get them so far, there has to be boundaries between the 2 systems. This is just a boundary.
And let's kill the myth right here!!! People with high-end MP10 vanilla gear WILL use their gear for considerable time after RoS is released!!!My gear was barely MP 7-8, and I played for AT LEAST 4-6 hours before switching most gear pieces. I was plowing through RoS in Master+ difficulty up until lvl 65-66. People with MP10 gear will be able to start farming on higher difficulties immediately (and both level to 70 and get the better drops much faster than people with MP 2-3 gear).
Once again, to protect the people with OP gear, to stop them ruining their own fun ("People with high-end MP10 vanilla gear WILL use their gear for considerable time after RoS is released" -your words), they're screwing with the people that just want to go into RoS and tinker a bit with their middle-of-the-road gear.
I can't think of a scenario where anyone would be "screwed" by this change. Worst case scenario is a player has to play on a lower difficulty than he/she expected they would be able to play.
Once again, to protect the people with OP gear, to stop them ruining their own fun ("People with high-end MP10 vanilla gear WILL use their gear for considerable time after RoS is released" -your words), they're screwing with the people that just want to go into RoS and tinker a bit with their middle-of-the-road gear.
I can't think of a scenario where anyone would be "screwed" by this change. Worst case scenario is a player has to play on a lower difficulty than he/she expected they would be able to play.
"Screwed" was poetic license, it's notthat big of a deal. I just think that, for the majority of 'normal' players, a lot of the fun would be to go into RoS and tinkering with their current gear, not necessarily to make it OP, but just because it's fun to tinker. It's more fun than just outright replace it (to me, at least).
The normal players (likely MP0-MP1 at the very best) will be able to tinker sooner since most drops early on in Act V will be upgrades. This change seems to be like the easiest/cheapest/straight-forward to a solution that impacts a handful of well-rolled high-end legendaries. Doing a bunch of rebalancing and power boosting at the high end is just a lot of work to solve a pretty simple problem.
You can reroll a weapon's damage Maka, that's why the lvl 60 weapons with good affixes could compete with lvl 70s. And lvl 70s have different rules now for rolling affixes.
My point was that the more hardcore you were about finding good gear in vanilla, the longer you're gonna use it in RoS.And I don't think the devs intention is to screw anyone, middle of the road players or not. It's simply to prevent lvl 60 gear from outclassing 90%+ of all lvl 70 gear, simple as that.
It's a pretty straightforward (and good imo) reason.
I see a lot of me me me... as per usual...
Once they introduced a level cap they turned it into a WoW based game for gear... every xpac will have a higher level cap and better gear to anticipate for inflated numbers. Remove the level cap and legacy gear can have meaning, once you accept and understand this you can move on. D3 is not D2.
Zero brought up a good point moving to the new system and I fully agree with this points.
Viewpoint 1: I have to replace my gear sooner than later = butthurt
Viewpoint 2: I can't keep my legacy items like previous Diablo games = butthurt
Viewpoint 3: It's an expac with level cap, of course you need to replace gear = butthurt
Now continue my minions rant about the most overrated news of the history of D3. At least the cut content, nerfs, and AH news was a real reason to get butthurt. Nothing to see here, move along, move along.
Why would anyone want to make the game less fun for themselves?
It's not us, it's Blizzard
Quote from dallten»There's no harm in that. In fact (and this I've been saying since the other thread that got locked started) there's no harm in either, but the thing is WHY they decide to remove the option. WHY remove something people are looking forward to? WHY remove something that brings another INCENTIVE to playing the game?
Because a fair bit of vanilla gear that is floating around can be turned into something better than most if not all lvl 70 gear. It's called balancing because they fucked up everything so badly in vanilla.
Oh ok, I misunderstood you. My bad, didn't pay attention to the entire post.Thought you were just asking how a lower lvl weapon can compete with a higher lvl one.
Either way, maybe it's a lot harder to code something like "ilvl = affix lvl" into the game than have this. I don't know why they chose this solution over something like what you proposed (a lot more elegant). Is it a lazier solution? Maybe. Probably. I guess. We can't tell for sure unless they tell us.
This is not the real problem honestly, the real problem is that we don't have a skill tree/skill modifier anymore. Then, all the possible variety that exists in the game must come from, yeah, items.
I believe, that the reason for this was a business call, altogether with the RMAH, now with the RMAH gone, maybe, just maybe the next step is to introduce some kind of control in skills, D2-like.
If they implement something like that, then a lot of weight will be removed from the itemization, and builds will reappear.
This is not the real problem honestly, the real problem is that we don't have a skill tree/skill modifier anymore. Then, all the possible variety that exists in the game must come from, yeah, items.I believe, that the reason for this was a business call, altogether with the RMAH, now with the RMAH gone, maybe, just maybe the next step is to introduce some kind of control in skills, D2-like.If they implement something like that, then a lot of weight will be removed from the itemization, and builds will reappear.
D2 isn't coming back... get over it seriously. They shifted emphasis to gear instead of skill trees and so far it hasn't worked out well. It can be fixed but were not there yet.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
I don't need to get over anything, I never said I want D2 back, I said that since the RMAH is gone, the only impediment to have a D2-likeskill system, should be development.
Btw, English is not my native language, type properly, use we are or we're and not were, can't stand it.
It's harsh to not being able to enchant old items or not being able to use a particular build without an enchanted classic item but it's necessary to move away from the ultra stacked items that we had in this game. The sooner we forget about LS/CHD/Socket weapons and tri/quadrifecta jewels the better.
And i'm pretty sure after a month in RoS, this "problem" will be forgotten because we already found better stuff to gear our toons with.
Not solving it now is short sighting as seems to be the argument that it angers people, it angers people for like a month and than no one will care. They balanced themselves into a wall with crit/cd and AS. These stats were too over inflated on gear, if you keep adding expansion and inflating the number on the gear everytime, eventually everyones running around with 100% crit, 1000% crit damage and capped attack speed. If you dont add more of these stats every new tier, than no one even needs to get new gear.
They had 3 big ways to do that, remove the old crit/cd/ias as stats and turn them into rating that diminish in power for every level up you gain like in an MMO, so that you never hit the caps and need more of the stats that you find on stronger gear or do what they just did and kill the old itemisation mistake and make the dps rating much lower and spread out, meaning you can cap them, its harder, but youll be missing more stats doing it. The third one was having caps on these stats, caps that gear could not pass, people cried about that for pretty much the same reasons, "but my old gear", so they gave in and found something else. One way or another the old gear was gona go bye bye enchanted or not.
They went for the easy and quick way, the logical one if they didnt want to rework how these stats work. Its very, very short sighted to ask for them to buff loot 2.0 even more to work out the issue, that would be counter productive to what the change is addressing. Because evetually they have to do it, better in the first expansion than later.
But it makes some people angry is not a logical argument against their attempt to have a more balance and long term plan about itemization, if anything it shows that they did learn at least one lesson from vanillas mistake. Buffing the loot would just be making the same mistake twice.
My current legacy gear can be replaced at lvl 60....without reforging..I have found upgrades.
Please...give us examples...because even my lvl 61 perfect ammy was replaced.
If it was possible to make only pre loot 2.0 reroll only enchants to their level, it would fix it. But the people complaining would still be complaining and the result would be the same really. Its just a little band aid on their gaping wound.
A witching hour with rerolled main stat is by far the best belt again raw damage wise, you lose alot of surviability, but thats a manageable trade, the only way to beat it is find very rare legendaries with a proc that will give you better potential, the difference is the witching hour provide its raw power to any build.
Most of these items arent the best, what blizzard clearly doesent like is that they do come pretty high up there. The diffrence between letting them be rerolled to lvl 70 or letting them being rerolled to lvl 60/not at all is this: Youll keep the lvl 60 item until you find the very best proc for that slot or youll probably drop it instantly when you hit lvl 70. Blizzard clearly want you to change ALL of your gear, sooner than later, which is what the change manifest.
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Wise ElderAnd Maka, some items are too good even with lower range main stat. There simply aren't a lot of Belts (even with massively inflated stats) that can compete with a 200 stat, 9% attackspeed, 50% crit dmg Witching Hour. That's similar to decent Tri/Quadfecta jewelry.
My gear is hardly top notch, and I played all the way to level 70 (about 2-4 hours?), and then farmed for 20-30 more hours without ever finding an upgrade (to some slots). That's not "trashing items around in the first half hour". That's killing a huge part about hunting items in lvls 60+. Now apply that to enchanted Gloves and Weapons.
The reason for all that guys is that,design wise, they are moving away from the mandatory 2-3 highly "scalable" stats. In the new Loot 2.0, they are limiting the stats some items can rolls, like crit damage on weapons. Every transition system is hard to adapt to (that's true for most law systems too). They have to find a way to implement the new ruleswithouthaving us "stuck in the past". Inflating stats will only get them so far, there has to be boundaries between the 2 systems. This is just a boundary.
And let's kill the myth right here!!!
People with high-end MP10 vanilla gear WILL use their gear for considerable time after RoS is released!!!My gear was barely MP 7-8, and I played for AT LEAST 4-6 hours before switching most gear pieces. I was plowing through RoS in Master+ difficulty up until lvl 65-66. People with MP10 gear will be able to start farming on higher difficulties immediately (and both level to 70 and get the better drops much faster than people with MP 2-3 gear).
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Wise ElderMy point was that the more hardcore you were about finding good gear in vanilla, the longer you're gonna use it in RoS.And I don't think the devs intention is to screw anyone, middle of the road players or not. It's simply to prevent lvl 60 gear from outclassing 90%+ of all lvl 70 gear, simple as that.
It's a pretty straightforward (and good imo) reason.
Sometimes yes sometimes no, half the time I don't realize it lol
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Wise ElderEither way, maybe it's a lot harder to code something like "ilvl = affix lvl" into the game than have this. I don't know why they chose this solution over something like what you proposed (a lot more elegant). Is it a lazier solution? Maybe. Probably. I guess. We can't tell for sure unless they tell us.
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ModeratorBut contrary to the rushed D3V release, I don't think this will enter in an unfixable distaster.
I believe, that the reason for this was a business call, altogether with the RMAH, now with the RMAH gone, maybe, just maybe the next step is to introduce some kind of control in skills, D2-like.
If they implement something like that, then a lot of weight will be removed from the itemization, and builds will reappear.
Btw, English is not my native language, type properly, use we are or we're and not were, can't stand it.