In the Design a Legendary video, the devs already pointed out that they'd try to avoid allowing classes to cast spells that are not native to those particular classes, as it ruins the original class's identity and uniqueness.
The restriction doesn't stop this though, I could farm a Wizzardspike on my Wiz, give it to my WD and got Frozen Orb crazy
That's fine, but again, the weapon by design is for a wizard. I don't think it's a debate that wizards are best suited for cold-based builds considering their vast arsenal of cold spells. A Wizardspike adds a lot more synergy and completion for their cold builds. Yes, a WD may want to run it for whatever odd reason. But what percentage of players will these WDs represent? 1%? 5%? As much as 30-50%? If half the players who run non-wizards pick up a Wizardspike (while playing a wizard) think the Wizardspike will be better suited for a non-wizard class, then the item really shouldn't be class-targeted. If it's still meant to be a wizard item, then change it to a wand, even if it was a knife in D2.
Now I don't know what the patched Wizardspike actually does now. If the patch notes for Wizardspike: "Legendary Power now actually casts the Frozen Orb rune" actually means that the player is required to have Frozen Orb selected as an active skill, then no non-wizard class will be using the dagger for logical reasons. As such, it's a wizard item and will be used predominantly by wizards... which goes back to saying, if I really wanted to use a Wizardspike for my wizard, I'd go farm for it on my wizard.
Not that I'm desperate to leap back into this whirlwind and stir the pot in regard to the Smart Drop system...but Bagstone is definitely right about this part:
Blizzard also is tuning it in response to various smart loot complains on the beta forums.
I haven't spent 100% of my time on the PTR or anything, but I've spent enough time there to understand the concerns with Smart Drops. That too many items were dropping with mainstat/vitality on them. I get it. "Too smart," and all that jazz.
Well, last night I downloaded the newest PTR patch, played a while with my Monk, and felt like I barely found any items with both mainstat and vitality on them. Maybe an ever so slight majority that I didn't notice, but...honestly, just because Blizzard didn't loudly declare that they're tuning Smart Drops down doesn't mean they haven't done that in the background. In the small amount of time I've spent on the PTR compared to others, last night felt night felt like a major difference between the overly common mainstat/vitality items that were constantly dropping before, and the rarely Smart Dropped items that appeared last night.
So truthfully...Smart Drops being "too smart" may not even be an issue anymore. Just FYI...
To weigh in on the subject at hand here....I don't like the fact that the Wizardspike will only drop for Wizards. If nothing else, it means for my other four (soon to be five) other classes, that's one less legendary they can stumble upon, and that's kinda disappointing. Plus, Smart Drops at least seem to be working in the sense that class-specific items do tend to be rolling their appropriate mainstats, which is still good. So as far as Wizardspike goes, I don't think it needs to drop ONLY for Wizards, but have it always drop good affixes for Wizards...Intelligence, skill buffs, etc. That way, whether a Wizard, Demon Hunter or Barb finds one, it'll still always be good for Wizards. Shouldn't matter which classes are able to find it. And I do think it's better for people who play primarily one class to find an item another class can use, and start a new toon because they think the item is cool, than simply removing that item from the available pool because it won't be optimal for them.
Ah, but that's what prolongs the game, whether some people like it or not. Like, if I'm playing a random Pokemon game, I'll have different teams set up. Breeding and training them from level 1 to 100. Takes a lot of work, but it's worthwhile work.
There's a difference between leveling progression and item progression.
People complained about Paragon 1.0 because why would you give up 300% MF to play a different character? It locked you into one character. So Blizzard gave us Paragon 2.0 and allowed us the opportunity to grind Paragon on any character. That has to apply somewhat to difficulties too. If you have a MP10 toon, why farm on an MP0 toon? All you're doing is gimping yourself. There has to be some degree of parity. If you have a Torment 6 toon that doesn't mean your entire cadre of toons needs access to Torment 6 just by virtue of their existence. But it does mean that if those other toons have to start on Expert or Master because they didn't get ANY hand-me-down gear, that may appeal to YOU, but it will also cause others to say "fuck this" and go play something else.
Point being, when you can farm on one character and get access to more MF, more drops, etc. it dis-incentivizes people from farming on another character that doesn't have access to it. That's one of the prime reasons that we have Sharagon instead of Paragon. As much as anyone wants to try to argue against it, that's simply not the truth of the matter. Most people do not want to start at square one, in terms of endgame farming, when it comes to alts.
Trying to portray that as "you just want everything handed to you" is highly hyperbolic and basically propaganda. I don't want everything handed to me. I don't want my other toons to be farming Torment 6 just because my WD can. What I want is not to be back at the very beginning of the item curve because that will cause me to not want to play those other characters. There's a massive difference between the two. Massive.
I think there should be a compromise for legendary drops (much like the smart drop system).
What I would propose would be to simply have another RNG roll when a legendary drops (although it could be applied to any drop, not just legendaries).
Each class would have a handfull of "class specific drops" - either the entire list of class specific items, or just a subset (doesn't really matter).
When a legendary (or any item for that matter drops), there should be a roll to see if this is a class specific item or generic (of course the class specific would have a much lower chance - say 5%). If the class specific item was selected, there was a second roll that determined if it was a "smart drop". If it was a smart drop, then it was class specific (ie - the wizardspike in question [yes, I know that it isn't exactly class specific, but Blizzard has just made it class specific for this discussion's purposes]). 80% of the time, it would be current class specific, with the other 20% being for another class. That way, you could still get a wizardspke (or other item) even if it wasn't with that specific class, but still the majority of drops were specific to the class you're currently playing.
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The other thing that I want to remind people when talking about the smart drops is that Blizzard has said on at least one occasion that the drop rates are increased significantly for Beta and PTR testing so that they drop significantly more than they will in the live version for testing.
I haven't seen anything talking specifically about smart drops, but the smart drops COULD be turned up significantly on those versions specifically for testing purposes.
I like the smart loot at the 75/12.5/12.5 ratio. Even at this ratio I have found plenty of items for other classes on the PTR. I even found a crusader flail which i though was funny since I can't even play the crusader on the PTR.
But, i don't know if i like the "WIzard only drops for the Wizardspike" type of thing. I understand the reasoning behind it (kind of). But if I found this on another character, even if i could use, i would still be psyched to sent it over to my wiz and try it out. So i definitely don't wan't then going this way on any items. But the 75/12.5/12.5 is good with me.
I don't think "Now only drops for Wizards" means what everyone seems to think it means.
I think it means the item will now roll as a Wizard-only item. It would boggle my mind if it actually meant the other 5 characters could not stumble upon a Wizardspike. My 2 cents.
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I play all classes as well. I dont have any main per say. So I dont like this change either if its really the way its worded. I like finding stuff for other classes.
I feel that smart loot is quite good, Some items should be 100% or at least close to it. I have only played the PTR so I do not know how the Mystic works especially when it comes to follower gear since the only issue I have with smart loot is finding items that help out the follower if not playing a character that has the same main stat as the follower. Options that might help is having follower only rings/amulet/weapon/shield. No need to have special art work or animation for them. Maybe even having legendaries just for the followers.
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I don't think "Now only drops for Wizards" means what everyone seems to think it means.
I think it means the item will now roll as a Wizard-only item. It would boggle my mind if it actually meant the other 5 characters could not stumble upon a Wizardspike. My 2 cents.
Would be really funny if it turned out to just mean this.
I think shaggy's posts are being a bit misinterpreted.
At its simplest form, what we're both saying is: "I want to be able to find items for my alternates in my main".
That not only says "look, go try something different for a while" and "congrats, you were able to play on Torment 5, here's an upgrade that will help your alternate try Torment 1 (instead of Master)"; but it also says "we're not gonna hold your hand all the time and ONLY give you items for your class".
I don't think "Now only drops for Wizards" means what everyone seems to think it means.
I think it means the item will now roll as a Wizard-only item. It would boggle my mind if it actually meant the other 5 characters could not stumble upon a Wizardspike. My 2 cents.
If that is the case "Wizardspike is now a wand" would be a much clearer patch note.
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That's fine, but again, the weapon by design is for a wizard. I don't think it's a debate that wizards are best suited for cold-based builds considering their vast arsenal of cold spells. A Wizardspike adds a lot more synergy and completion for their cold builds. Yes, a WD may want to run it for whatever odd reason. But what percentage of players will these WDs represent? 1%? 5%? As much as 30-50%? If half the players who run non-wizards pick up a Wizardspike (while playing a wizard) think the Wizardspike will be better suited for a non-wizard class, then the item really shouldn't be class-targeted. If it's still meant to be a wizard item, then change it to a wand, even if it was a knife in D2.
Now I don't know what the patched Wizardspike actually does now. If the patch notes for Wizardspike: "Legendary Power now actually casts the Frozen Orb rune" actually means that the player is required to have Frozen Orb selected as an active skill, then no non-wizard class will be using the dagger for logical reasons. As such, it's a wizard item and will be used predominantly by wizards... which goes back to saying, if I really wanted to use a Wizardspike for my wizard, I'd go farm for it on my wizard.
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Not that I'm desperate to leap back into this whirlwind and stir the pot in regard to the Smart Drop system...but Bagstone is definitely right about this part:
I haven't spent 100% of my time on the PTR or anything, but I've spent enough time there to understand the concerns with Smart Drops. That too many items were dropping with mainstat/vitality on them. I get it. "Too smart," and all that jazz.
Well, last night I downloaded the newest PTR patch, played a while with my Monk, and felt like I barely found any items with both mainstat and vitality on them. Maybe an ever so slight majority that I didn't notice, but...honestly, just because Blizzard didn't loudly declare that they're tuning Smart Drops down doesn't mean they haven't done that in the background. In the small amount of time I've spent on the PTR compared to others, last night felt night felt like a major difference between the overly common mainstat/vitality items that were constantly dropping before, and the rarely Smart Dropped items that appeared last night.
So truthfully...Smart Drops being "too smart" may not even be an issue anymore. Just FYI...
To weigh in on the subject at hand here....I don't like the fact that the Wizardspike will only drop for Wizards. If nothing else, it means for my other four (soon to be five) other classes, that's one less legendary they can stumble upon, and that's kinda disappointing. Plus, Smart Drops at least seem to be working in the sense that class-specific items do tend to be rolling their appropriate mainstats, which is still good. So as far as Wizardspike goes, I don't think it needs to drop ONLY for Wizards, but have it always drop good affixes for Wizards...Intelligence, skill buffs, etc. That way, whether a Wizard, Demon Hunter or Barb finds one, it'll still always be good for Wizards. Shouldn't matter which classes are able to find it. And I do think it's better for people who play primarily one class to find an item another class can use, and start a new toon because they think the item is cool, than simply removing that item from the available pool because it won't be optimal for them.
There's a difference between leveling progression and item progression.
People complained about Paragon 1.0 because why would you give up 300% MF to play a different character? It locked you into one character. So Blizzard gave us Paragon 2.0 and allowed us the opportunity to grind Paragon on any character. That has to apply somewhat to difficulties too. If you have a MP10 toon, why farm on an MP0 toon? All you're doing is gimping yourself. There has to be some degree of parity. If you have a Torment 6 toon that doesn't mean your entire cadre of toons needs access to Torment 6 just by virtue of their existence. But it does mean that if those other toons have to start on Expert or Master because they didn't get ANY hand-me-down gear, that may appeal to YOU, but it will also cause others to say "fuck this" and go play something else.
Point being, when you can farm on one character and get access to more MF, more drops, etc. it dis-incentivizes people from farming on another character that doesn't have access to it. That's one of the prime reasons that we have Sharagon instead of Paragon. As much as anyone wants to try to argue against it, that's simply not the truth of the matter. Most people do not want to start at square one, in terms of endgame farming, when it comes to alts.
Trying to portray that as "you just want everything handed to you" is highly hyperbolic and basically propaganda. I don't want everything handed to me. I don't want my other toons to be farming Torment 6 just because my WD can. What I want is not to be back at the very beginning of the item curve because that will cause me to not want to play those other characters. There's a massive difference between the two. Massive.
I think there should be a compromise for legendary drops (much like the smart drop system).
What I would propose would be to simply have another RNG roll when a legendary drops (although it could be applied to any drop, not just legendaries).
Each class would have a handfull of "class specific drops" - either the entire list of class specific items, or just a subset (doesn't really matter).
When a legendary (or any item for that matter drops), there should be a roll to see if this is a class specific item or generic (of course the class specific would have a much lower chance - say 5%). If the class specific item was selected, there was a second roll that determined if it was a "smart drop". If it was a smart drop, then it was class specific (ie - the wizardspike in question [yes, I know that it isn't exactly class specific, but Blizzard has just made it class specific for this discussion's purposes]). 80% of the time, it would be current class specific, with the other 20% being for another class. That way, you could still get a wizardspke (or other item) even if it wasn't with that specific class, but still the majority of drops were specific to the class you're currently playing.
--------------
The other thing that I want to remind people when talking about the smart drops is that Blizzard has said on at least one occasion that the drop rates are increased significantly for Beta and PTR testing so that they drop significantly more than they will in the live version for testing.
I haven't seen anything talking specifically about smart drops, but the smart drops COULD be turned up significantly on those versions specifically for testing purposes.
This smart loot probably isn't a bad idea, the only way to know for sure is to test it, and see how it feels.
I like the smart loot at the 75/12.5/12.5 ratio. Even at this ratio I have found plenty of items for other classes on the PTR. I even found a crusader flail which i though was funny since I can't even play the crusader on the PTR.
But, i don't know if i like the "WIzard only drops for the Wizardspike" type of thing. I understand the reasoning behind it (kind of). But if I found this on another character, even if i could use, i would still be psyched to sent it over to my wiz and try it out. So i definitely don't wan't then going this way on any items. But the 75/12.5/12.5 is good with me.
I don't think "Now only drops for Wizards" means what everyone seems to think it means.
I think it means the item will now roll as a Wizard-only item. It would boggle my mind if it actually meant the other 5 characters could not stumble upon a Wizardspike. My 2 cents.
I play all classes as well. I dont have any main per say. So I dont like this change either if its really the way its worded. I like finding stuff for other classes.
I feel that smart loot is quite good, Some items should be 100% or at least close to it. I have only played the PTR so I do not know how the Mystic works especially when it comes to follower gear since the only issue I have with smart loot is finding items that help out the follower if not playing a character that has the same main stat as the follower. Options that might help is having follower only rings/amulet/weapon/shield. No need to have special art work or animation for them. Maybe even having legendaries just for the followers.
I think shaggy's posts are being a bit misinterpreted.
At its simplest form, what we're both saying is: "I want to be able to find items for my alternates in my main".
That not only says "look, go try something different for a while" and "congrats, you were able to play on Torment 5, here's an upgrade that will help your alternate try Torment 1 (instead of Master)"; but it also says "we're not gonna hold your hand all the time and ONLY give you items for your class".
I think that's a very, very fair argument.