Quote from SniggleJake»
Third party sites always find ways to make money off of a game.
Only not off of legendary items or gold.
Quote from SniggleJake»
They will just sell accounts instead of single items now.
I explained why that won't work in a previous post in this thread.
Quote from SniggleJake»
Or have people pay to be put into a 'farming party', 2-3 super geared players that sell the items to the person just chilling in town.
Selling random items which may or may not drop while the customer sits in town for hours? That's some wild imagination.
Quote from SniggleJake»
There will always be ways around what Blizzard implements.
Nope. Any other ideas?
People are already selling farming party runs in D3. Back when most people couldnt do MP10 they would sell a prepped act 3 run (like 15 champ packs at low life and lots of white mobs taken down some). They are currently doing prepped MP10 crypt runs (5 champion packs for NV and the mothers with a couple sets of zombies spawned). They also obviously sold MP10 ubers.
EDIT: Link to a run with just elites as proof that they happened http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6297430142
If all the black marketeers can find a market for is whole accounts, then, I find that's a good thing. Only the desperate will buy them, and it's a risky proposition anyway.
Removing legendaries from being able to be sold cross-account, and having good rares be not too hard to find, as it is on PTR, is a huge step toward making the black marketeers irrelevant. Bravo, Blizzard.
As far as bots, I'm sure some will still self-bot for their own legendaries, but, they're only messing up their own gameplay, not everyone else's. And, Blizzard can ban them when they wish. Less bots overall = easier to pin down the ones left.
Without items to sell, the 3rd-party RMT will be a shadow of what it is even now. I'm sure they'll still have a stockpile of legacy legendaries for a while, but even those will be low demand once people are headed for level 70.
The removal of trading to fight third party sites is such a narrow minded thought...
There are genuine players that likes to trade and barter with other people, not everyone is a credit card warrior or a guy that sells gear for real money.
The removal of trading to fight third party sites is such a narrow minded thought...
There are genuine players that likes to trade and barter with other people, not everyone is a credit card warrior or a guy that sells gear for real money.
You've been on this site long enough to understand the propaganda, though.
It leads with someone categorizing trading as "cheating" and then it follows through with "killing monsters is the only legit way to acquire gear." Well, we have that on the PTR now, and it's boring as fuck. I have this clan full of people and I barely socialize with them, and even less frequently do I group with them because it's basically pointless.
The casualty here, sadly, is the community. I don't even WANT to log into D3 because it's a single player game with LAN co-op features and battle.net chat. It's nothing more. It's pathetic because an always-online game should EMBRACE community, grouping, trading, and all that jazz because it's ONLINE and that's one of the biggest features of being online. Most people who get addicted to WoW don't get addicted to the actual game, they get addicted to the friendships they make and the good times they have in-game with those friends. Trying to ignore that when developing D3 is a major mistake.
no trading = I'm not getting this game. I don't even recognize it as Diablo any more.
When you couple BoA with smart drops (I very rarely find gear to give my non-int followers and other characters) I, sadly, have to agree with you. It's terribly not-fun. I don't have access to level 70 content, but I can't imagine it alleviating what I experienced as a very major problem. Being 100% at the mercy of RNG makes me burn out on the game very... very... quickly despite some of the other changes RoS features which I think are amazing.
Blizzard (and the anti-trading cartel) have just severely overestimated how much longevity a game can have when everyone is playing purely self-found all the time. It's a clear case of a group of very-vocal whiners determining that "killing monsters is the only right way to get gear" and then forcing it on everyone else. How Blizzard fell for that I will never, ever, understand... because it's very un-Blizzard to do something like this. They, typically, have been much more open-minded about things like this.
Well, i stopped logging on the PTR too because exping is quite boring, hunting items is uninteresting (hi upgrades every 10 minutes) and density is terrible.
After i read your reply, i realized a fallacy from Blizzard... They wanted us to group up with other players so we are able to trade but if the majority of loot we drop is tailored for our current character... when do we need to trade with our companions?
Let's add another brainfart... Blizzard wanted us to play in co-op because we can trade Legendaries on drop with other players (cough, BoA is stupid, cough), doesn't this make solo play a lot less profitable? What if i don't feel like playing in group and a piece of gear drops and a friend is offline and he needs it?
Meh, i'm beating a pretty wounded horse here.... But Blizzard is making some mistakes on trading and how loot works that's going to hurt the longevity and the community...
I've said it before, I'll say it again: D3 is not an mmo, and I don't play this game to socialize. If I have to give up trading to get a solid solo experience, I'm cool with that. Coop is still fun with the focus on killing instead of trading, I just don't see why you need to be able to trade with people to have fun killing demons.
Coop is still fun with the focus on killing instead of trading
It is? My experience on the PTR is that "farming" is actually even more boring than it currently is on live. My experience is that none of this hand-waving has really worked and that the heart of the game hasn't truly improved. When I got on the PTR I expected to be blown away with the experience. Clans are awesome. Skill balancing is great. The new items (particularly the rares that are completely dominated by skill-specific rolls) and the actual hunt for those items, though... left tons to be desired.
BoA was supposed to IMPROVE the self-found experience. Sure as shit doesn't feel like that to me.
Just keep in mind that there are plenty of people who think the PTR's way has completely ruined live for them. Blizzard can't satisfy both of us. The current live is a horrible cesspool of searching through haystacks of dropped crap looking for that one bright needle, while PTR is a complete different, and imo much improved setup. Actual useful rares w/o having to trade or buy things! Real, actual legendaries dropping, that are USEFUL to the toon getting them.
Of course, if you take your level 60 to PTR that has all the 'best' gear from trading/AH, no wonder you don't like the new loot. Hard to get upgrades when you already bought or traded for the best. Seems to me you just want to do that again, and start the bitching about not getting upgrades all over again, when the real problem is that your 'free trade' already gave you 'the best' of everything you wanted.
No, I think the PTR/RoS setup is much better, BoAs included. Self-found is actually viable now, not a pipe-dream killed by the AH and its drop adjustments. I'm entitled to my opinion as much as you are, and just from what I've seen in chat on PTR/beta, I see a lot more people happy with loot 2.0 than unhappy. All trading does in this context is shorten up the time to 'fully-geared'.
YMMV.
It's very ignorant to categorize people who dislike BoA as people who already have the best gear, who bought it all with their credit card, and are spoiled brats. The character I played primarily on the PTR was an ~80k DPS WD who was 90%+ self-found. A character like that, in the new environment we were promised, should not find the PTR frustrating. After months of playing self-found on live a character like that should be reveling in the PTR and singing its praises. The PTR should fix EVERYTHING that character finds frustrating. Someone like me should log into the PTR and feel like it fixed all the issues I had playing self-found.
But it didn't. If you don't understand just how much of a problem that is, well... sorry?
I took a prime candidate for this new experience to the PTR. Blizzard sold me on a system that would be way better than what we had. The only way this system is "better" is that other people can't get gear faster (and it doesn't make me enjoy the game more if you are basically just nerfing other people). As for MY self-found experience, there is no doubt at all that it has not improved significantly. That's what's alarming. This system was supposed to be DRASTICALLY better than what we have on live. It's not. It's not even close to it. It's a massive let-down and there are more problems with it (particularly smart drops) than there are solutions.
Why is trading and RMT a bad thing? If people are willing to go outside of the game to trade for money then that is their prerogative. Without being able to trade legendaries it is going to be a pain in the ass to gear yourself around a specific "game changing" legendary especially with the current droprates.
It doesn't sound too great to me to get a great legendary and be forced between a fun but weak build because I need more items to build around that legendary or a build that is strong and I put that legendary in the stash until I finish the set when I could have traded for it. This is exacerbated by the still decently large range on items and the still random rolls on what stats appear on the item.
Because creating RMT as the *best* way to acquire items is bad for the entire game as a whole.
I absolutely LOVE the way it's set up right now. I'm having a blast on PTR just farming for myself and my alts, and / or whoever I'm playing with.
RMT wouldn't be officially supported, it didn't drastically change D2. Most people don't even use RMT for items in D3 even with official support, most of it is gold (or gems, as gem prices determine the value of gold for real money). You can still farm for yourself and your alts with trading in the game.
Well imo it did. How many dupe hacks and exploits were created by these site owners because the value in it? Also all the botting really started in LoD when these item shops really started to run profit (pre-lod only some dupe rares and maybe sojs were sold in ebay mostly).
Other side effects are also account theft, scamming, spamming that happens already now.. PVPgold.
Quote from SniggleJake
If Blizzard actually banned people who used third party sites, this issue would not exist.
Except nobody can prove that someone used a third party site.
RMAH/AH was the best and quickest way to acquire items. Blizzard knows full well that by removing those, 3rd party sites will become the best thing which would be idiotic even if you restrict yourself from doing it because you realize it is idiotic. I don't care if people like to do it - too bad for them. No sympathy.
If you think getting items will be too hard - well too bad again - no sympathy for those who complain that something that should be hard in the game actually turns out to be hard.
In 1.0.8 there are over 200 items that are legendary. In RoS there will be even more, and all of them can be dropped at any level. If you get 1 legendary every three hours, it will take thousands of hours to see them all. Beyond that, they only roll for your own class and you may get shitty rolls, so you are talking an exponentially larger amount of time to get the ideal legendaries for one class, let alone 6. If you are wanting to make a specific build involving a specific two or three pieces you may get them back to back or you may not see it for hundreds of legendaries down the road.
Let us take an example: How many mempo's have you seen drop? How many have had crit chance? How many have had 6% crit chance? Now imagine every single legendary is even more rare than that (as instead of it being maybe one in 40 legendaries it is one in over 200, since any legendary can drop even a leorics)
This is what it is going to be like without trading.
Is Legendary always a Smart Drop? If so then okey. But still many of the Legendaries that drop fits your class quite well anyways since the stats are correct. It might not be a perfect piece for your character right now but if it is an upgrade wouldn't you be happy about it?
I haven't found any Mempo's... not sure if I care about that specific item very much.. it is one of those OP items that shouldn't even exist in the game. I really hate when some item become defacto that pretty much every class and build must have.. same goes with many other items atm. Even if I could trade that Mempo.. i couldn't afford it EVER in D3 vanilla.. Okey maybe in RMAH but I'm not gonna spend 200+ for pixels.
The game need trading because how the game is design. You cannot survive high level with low level item. Your damage, your life, your armor, your resist, all tie to item. The item level determine those number. For example, I think the earthquake set is one of the coolest set, but if you collect the hold set at level 50, what good is it for you when you level 70? You will have to hunt for the whole set again.
D2, some of the end games item are in the level 40s, like Occulus and you still use it until level 90. Sure, they are better items, but the Occulus is sufficient. YES, every sorc has one and I am fine with it.
Coop is still fun with the focus on killing instead of trading
It is? My experience on the PTR is that "farming" is actually even more boring than it currently is on live. My experience is that none of this hand-waving has really worked and that the heart of the game hasn't truly improved. When I got on the PTR I expected to be blown away with the experience. Clans are awesome. Skill balancing is great. The new items (particularly the rares that are completely dominated by skill-specific rolls) and the actual hunt for those items, though... left tons to be desired.
BoA was supposed to IMPROVE the self-found experience. Sure as shit doesn't feel like that to me.
Not sure if I got my point across. If you feel that the items are still not interesting enough, or that farming isn't fun, then maybe that side of the game needs to be improved. But that has nothing to do with whether or not coop, or just combat in general, is fun. Simply removing BoA wouldn't make the items better.
I said a long time ago that Blizzard needs to either make a new trade system or just make solo viable. If they don't want people trading but they also haven't made the item hunt fun and rewarding, then that is a major problem. I just don't think "remove BoA" would solve the problem. They would need to go a lot further than that, otherwise we'll just be back to D2.
At this point, I would much rather see rebalancing on droprates and item rolls than yet another complete shift in philosophy. If a few months down the line it becomes apparent that it isn't working, then they might give trading another shot, but there is simply not enough time between now and RoS to make that happen.
In short, if you want trading because you honestly think the act of trading is fun or because you like to socialize in this game, then you and I simply don't agree. If you want trading because you think the itemization in this game is still not up to par, then I think you are asking for the wrong solution to the problem, at least at this point in time.
In short, if you want trading because you honestly think the act of trading is fun or because you like to socialize in this game, then you and I simply don't agree. If you want trading because you think the itemization in this game is still not up to par, then I think you are asking for the wrong solution to the problem, at least at this point in time.
No, it's the very right solution. BoA and smart drops were supposed to improve the experience. For me, that meant that the struggles of playing self-found on live would be ERADICATED in this system. It meant that I wouldn't be constantly fighting for an upgrade (can we admit that an 80k DPS WD has plenty of room for improvement?). It meant that I wouldn't be finding tons of useless items.
Unfortunately, when I play on the PTR, it's almost a running joke in clan chat anymore, but at least 50% of weapons are STILL USELESS. I still find sources/mojos in Master 60 with 40 average damage. I still find weapons in Master 60 with ~500 DPS because they have no damage (elemental/physical, or %age increase) rolls at all. This shows a fundamental gap in their understanding as to what a useful item is and what the rest of us know it to be.
They repeatedly told us that BoA would allow them to give us all an appropriate experience. It's not good if I log into the PTR and think "I had more fun farming in vanilla." That means that the net sum of BoA, Smart Drops, and Loot 2.0 missed the mark.
Ultimately, though, this isn't about "finding trading fun." It's more about the fact that trying to boil the game down to "just kill monsters" is eliminating variety and variety is the spice of life. Remember the monster density patch? It was awesome. Why? Because it gave us more variety. Yeah there were "best" spots still, but if you decided to go off the beaten path you didn't feel nearly as penalized as you did if you weren't farming Act 3 runs prior to the patch. What BoA does is, in no uncertain terms, put you in a box where the game is only about killing monsters. The moment you tire of killing monsters there's nothing left. You have no option to chill out, take a break, and say "I haven't found <item> and I'm kinda burnt out on farming, let's see if I can make a trade" and allow that new item which makes a new build viable to inject some vitality back into the game for you. It's farm or don't play.
We don't have PvP because, instead of giving us a sandbox PvP much like D2 had, Blizzard wants to define HOW we PvP. This is proving to be a major misstep because there's just no reason for this amazing PvP to have been delayed for almost two years now. Strangely, the approach to PvM is similar. We don't have what we had in D2 because Blizzard is too concerned with telling us how to have fun and much less concerned with understanding what "fun" actually is.
Killing monsters should be most people's primary means of getting gear. But if you get 90% of your gear from monsters and 10% from trades, who gives a shit? The problem with the whole argument is it's absolutist. It comes down to this mentality that if you don't get 100% of your items from monsters then you can't be having fun because "killing monsters is fun." YES. It is fun. But just because something is fun doesn't mean it's the only possible way to garner enjoyment. As an example, I work in a casino. Most people play multiple games despite varying house advantages. Blackjack and Baccarat, typically, have the best odds for the player. But you see people taking a break from Blackjack and Baccarat to play 3-Card Poker or Craps because it gets BORING if all you do is play Blackjack every single fucking minute you spend in the casino even if that's your best shot to win.
What I'm saying is that I don't disagree with the idea that "killing monsters is fun." I disagree with the follow-through on that that says "therefore everyone should do it at all times when playing Diablo 3." It's that absolutist attitude that has directly led to this whole situation. It's black, or white, but not grey. The insistence on treating this as black or white only is stunning coming from Blizzard. They make the big bucks to come up with creative solutions that appeal to a large fanbase. This solution is anything but creative. It's punitive and divisive.
That being said, I'm done posting. I probably will not be buying RoS unless they really change up the PTR and I can log in and think "this is really fun" and not "this is no more fun than vanilla." It's on them to win me back as a customer. I have no qualms about taking my dollars elsewhere. I did it with WoW when they got preachy with the "we feel that you shouldn't be playing alts as much as you did in Cata" shit in MoP and I'll do it with RoS. I'm not going to continue to pump dollar after dollar into a company who lately seems more intent on telling me what I enjoy as opposed to simply delivering an enjoyable product.
If Blizzard were selling oranges and I didn't like the oranges some guy in the store saying "these oranges are tastier than the other stores oranges" wouldn't get me to keep buying them. Similarly this "killing monsters is fun" lecturing that's bordering on patronizing isn't going to convince me that I'm enjoying something that really isn't enjoyable. More focus on making the game fun. Less focus on blowing around hot air trying to convince people that the game is fun. If the game is fun then none of this defense would be necessary. If the game is fun it will speak for itself.
on it and play the game... that's why the RMAH killed it.... Fun to me is getting gear and playing the game.... knowing i can sell pixels easily for hundreds of dollars takes the fun out... i'd rather have hundreds of dollars....
In short, if you want trading because you honestly think the act of trading is fun or because you like to socialize in this game, then you and I simply don't agree. If you want trading because you think the itemization in this game is still not up to par, then I think you are asking for the wrong solution to the problem, at least at this point in time.
No, it's the very right solution. BoA and smart drops were supposed to improve the experience. For me, that meant that the struggles of playing self-found on live would be ERADICATED in this system. It meant that I wouldn't be constantly fighting for an upgrade (can we admit that an 80k DPS WD has plenty of room for improvement?). It meant that I wouldn't be finding tons of useless items.
Ok, now I'm certain I didn't get my point across.
My point is this: whether or not you can trade has no effect on whether or not killing demons is fun, regardless if you mean solo or coop. Killing demons by yourself should be fun and rewarding, even if you can't take the items that aren't good for you and give them to other people. Killing demons with your friends should be its own reward, not an opportunity to gear each other up.
If playing the game isn't fun because all your drops are crap, then that's a problem. Taking BoA out of the game without also introducing some type of new trading system AND/OR improving drops is not the solution to that problem. At this point, it is much more reasonable to expect improvements to itemization than a complete back-pedal on Blizzard's philosophy regarding trading. If we get the improvements to itemization, that's awesome. If, down the road, Blizzard decides to give trading another shot, that's also awesome. BoA itself is not the issue.
What I'm saying is that I don't disagree with the idea that "killing monsters is fun." I disagree with the follow-through on that that says "therefore everyone should do it at all times when playing Diablo 3." It's that absolutist attitude that has directly led to this whole situation. It's black, or white, but not grey. The insistence on treating this as black or white only is stunning coming from Blizzard. They make the big bucks to come up with creative solutions that appeal to a large fanbase. This solution is anything but creative. It's punitive and divisive.
By "killing demons", I don't mean doing nothing but mindless grinding. The game could absolutely use more variety. Rifts and bounties are a great step in that direction, and I'd love to see more stuff like that. Ladder and PVP are other potentials; I'm not crazy about them, but that's really a whole other discussion. If you want more ways to play the game, that's cool. If you think trading, by itself, is fun and that your experience is somehow worse simply because trading isn't there, then I just don't agree with you. I don't think we need trading for getting loot and improving your character to be rewarding, and I don't think insisting on bringing trade back to the game simply to have more options is a good attitude. More options /= better.
In short, if you want trading because you honestly think the act of trading is fun or because you like to socialize in this game, then you and I simply don't agree. If you want trading because you think the itemization in this game is still not up to par, then I think you are asking for the wrong solution to the problem, at least at this point in time.
No, it's the very right solution. BoA and smart drops were supposed to improve the experience. For me, that meant that the struggles of playing self-found on live would be ERADICATED in this system. It meant that I wouldn't be constantly fighting for an upgrade (can we admit that an 80k DPS WD has plenty of room for improvement?). It meant that I wouldn't be finding tons of useless items.
Ok, now I'm certain I didn't get my point across.
My point is this: whether or not you can trade has no effect on whether or not killing demons is fun, regardless if you mean solo or coop. Killing demons by yourself should be fun and rewarding, even if you can't take the items that aren't good for you and give them to other people. Killing demons with your friends should be its own reward, not an opportunity to gear each other up.
If playing the game isn't fun because all your drops are crap, then that's a problem. Taking BoA out of the game without also introducing some type of new trading system AND/OR improving drops is not the solution to that problem. At this point, it is much more reasonable to expect improvements to itemization than a complete back-pedal on Blizzard's philosophy regarding trading. If we get the improvements to itemization, that's awesome. If, down the road, Blizzard decides to give trading another shot, that's also awesome. BoA itself is not the issue.
What I'm saying is that I don't disagree with the idea that "killing monsters is fun." I disagree with the follow-through on that that says "therefore everyone should do it at all times when playing Diablo 3." It's that absolutist attitude that has directly led to this whole situation. It's black, or white, but not grey. The insistence on treating this as black or white only is stunning coming from Blizzard. They make the big bucks to come up with creative solutions that appeal to a large fanbase. This solution is anything but creative. It's punitive and divisive.
By "killing demons", I don't mean doing nothing but mindless grinding. The game could absolutely use more variety. Rifts and bounties are a great step in that direction, and I'd love to see more stuff like that. Ladder and PVP are other potentials; I'm not crazy about them, but that's really a whole other discussion. If you want more ways to play the game, that's cool. If you think trading, by itself, is fun and that your experience is somehow worse simply because trading isn't there, then I just don't agree with you. I don't think we need trading for getting loot and improving your character to be rewarding, and I don't think insisting on bringing trade back to the game simply to have more options is a good attitude. More options /= better.
Trading brought people together in diablo 1.
Trading brought people together in diablo 2.
Trading did not bring people together in Diablo 3. The auction house was an anonymous bulletin board. People used the auction house to get what they wanted. People traded in d2 because you never know what deals could be waiting in the next game. Hell yeah trading is fun and its a staple in Diablo. If I cannot share my loot with my friends then they should make a single player mode. Sorry bro I disagree and so do a lot of folks.
I agree that Blizzard has gone into an extreme here. I'm not a huge fan of trading and I never cared if someone else is trading or not. The issue with the AH was not that it allowed someone to get better gear, the issue was that it was mandatory to use the AH if you wanted to farm higher difficulties. Drops were balanced around the AH, because it was open for everyone and if everyone had a small chance of finding a good item, it meant that this item will flood the AH, which in turn meant that it will have a low price, which meant that everyone would be able to buy it. And this happened when Blizz tuned drop rates, so that people could actually find weapons with DPS higher than 300 (back when there was no MP and each next act was more difficult than the previous). Those good weapons (and not only weapons) flooded the AH, and suddenly Inferno was too easy, so Blizz were forced to introduce MP. By telling all this I try to describe why AH was bad. It was not trading in general, but the ease of access to a global and powerful trading tool. I haven't spent as much time in D2 as I have in D3, but the existence of d2jsp was not bothering me at all. There was a part of the community, that wanted to trade there or buy items for real money or whatever, but I wasn't part of it. And so weren't many others. Some may have even been oblivious to the fact that RMT existed at all. And here's what this BoA change does wrong: it makes an ordinary player like myself unable to play as I used to, it is hurting my experience without giving anything in return. I have a wife and she prefers to play alone, but we like to share our loot with each other. We can't do that anymore. I have a close friend that has more spare time and is playing much more often, and he also likes Wizards while I like melee classes. Thanks to loot 2.0 he has little to no chance to find a piece of gear suitable for me (as do I to find an item for him), and on top of that we can only share items found while farming together. We have guildies from WoW with whom we were going to form a clan, and we can't share items within our clan. It's not even trading - it's sharing with people I like. You can't lend your alt's gear to a friend that recently started to play and wants to farm faster. All of this is frustrating, because those are such fundamental things. I agree with Shaggy and his particular opinion that they areturning an online game into a single-player sandbox. BoA was a cure for this issue with good items with an acceptable chance to drop flooding the AH, but with the AH gone, there's no need for this cure. Especially for the much stronger version of it.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6297430142
If all the black marketeers can find a market for is whole accounts, then, I find that's a good thing. Only the desperate will buy them, and it's a risky proposition anyway.
Removing legendaries from being able to be sold cross-account, and having good rares be not too hard to find, as it is on PTR, is a huge step toward making the black marketeers irrelevant. Bravo, Blizzard.
As far as bots, I'm sure some will still self-bot for their own legendaries, but, they're only messing up their own gameplay, not everyone else's. And, Blizzard can ban them when they wish. Less bots overall = easier to pin down the ones left.
Without items to sell, the 3rd-party RMT will be a shadow of what it is even now. I'm sure they'll still have a stockpile of legacy legendaries for a while, but even those will be low demand once people are headed for level 70.
I think it's a great move.
no trading = I'm not getting this game. I don't even recognize it as Diablo any more.
You've been on this site long enough to understand the propaganda, though.
It leads with someone categorizing trading as "cheating" and then it follows through with "killing monsters is the only legit way to acquire gear." Well, we have that on the PTR now, and it's boring as fuck. I have this clan full of people and I barely socialize with them, and even less frequently do I group with them because it's basically pointless.
The casualty here, sadly, is the community. I don't even WANT to log into D3 because it's a single player game with LAN co-op features and battle.net chat. It's nothing more. It's pathetic because an always-online game should EMBRACE community, grouping, trading, and all that jazz because it's ONLINE and that's one of the biggest features of being online. Most people who get addicted to WoW don't get addicted to the actual game, they get addicted to the friendships they make and the good times they have in-game with those friends. Trying to ignore that when developing D3 is a major mistake.
When you couple BoA with smart drops (I very rarely find gear to give my non-int followers and other characters) I, sadly, have to agree with you. It's terribly not-fun. I don't have access to level 70 content, but I can't imagine it alleviating what I experienced as a very major problem. Being 100% at the mercy of RNG makes me burn out on the game very... very... quickly despite some of the other changes RoS features which I think are amazing.
Blizzard (and the anti-trading cartel) have just severely overestimated how much longevity a game can have when everyone is playing purely self-found all the time. It's a clear case of a group of very-vocal whiners determining that "killing monsters is the only right way to get gear" and then forcing it on everyone else. How Blizzard fell for that I will never, ever, understand... because it's very un-Blizzard to do something like this. They, typically, have been much more open-minded about things like this.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: D3 is not an mmo, and I don't play this game to socialize. If I have to give up trading to get a solid solo experience, I'm cool with that. Coop is still fun with the focus on killing instead of trading, I just don't see why you need to be able to trade with people to have fun killing demons.
It is? My experience on the PTR is that "farming" is actually even more boring than it currently is on live. My experience is that none of this hand-waving has really worked and that the heart of the game hasn't truly improved. When I got on the PTR I expected to be blown away with the experience. Clans are awesome. Skill balancing is great. The new items (particularly the rares that are completely dominated by skill-specific rolls) and the actual hunt for those items, though... left tons to be desired.
BoA was supposed to IMPROVE the self-found experience. Sure as shit doesn't feel like that to me.
Of course, if you take your level 60 to PTR that has all the 'best' gear from trading/AH, no wonder you don't like the new loot. Hard to get upgrades when you already bought or traded for the best. Seems to me you just want to do that again, and start the bitching about not getting upgrades all over again, when the real problem is that your 'free trade' already gave you 'the best' of everything you wanted. No, I think the PTR/RoS setup is much better, BoAs included. Self-found is actually viable now, not a pipe-dream killed by the AH and its drop adjustments. I'm entitled to my opinion as much as you are, and just from what I've seen in chat on PTR/beta, I see a lot more people happy with loot 2.0 than unhappy. All trading does in this context is shorten up the time to 'fully-geared'. YMMV.
It's very ignorant to categorize people who dislike BoA as people who already have the best gear, who bought it all with their credit card, and are spoiled brats. The character I played primarily on the PTR was an ~80k DPS WD who was 90%+ self-found. A character like that, in the new environment we were promised, should not find the PTR frustrating. After months of playing self-found on live a character like that should be reveling in the PTR and singing its praises. The PTR should fix EVERYTHING that character finds frustrating. Someone like me should log into the PTR and feel like it fixed all the issues I had playing self-found.
But it didn't. If you don't understand just how much of a problem that is, well... sorry?
I took a prime candidate for this new experience to the PTR. Blizzard sold me on a system that would be way better than what we had. The only way this system is "better" is that other people can't get gear faster (and it doesn't make me enjoy the game more if you are basically just nerfing other people). As for MY self-found experience, there is no doubt at all that it has not improved significantly. That's what's alarming. This system was supposed to be DRASTICALLY better than what we have on live. It's not. It's not even close to it. It's a massive let-down and there are more problems with it (particularly smart drops) than there are solutions.
Is Legendary always a Smart Drop? If so then okey. But still many of the Legendaries that drop fits your class quite well anyways since the stats are correct. It might not be a perfect piece for your character right now but if it is an upgrade wouldn't you be happy about it? I haven't found any Mempo's... not sure if I care about that specific item very much.. it is one of those OP items that shouldn't even exist in the game. I really hate when some item become defacto that pretty much every class and build must have.. same goes with many other items atm. Even if I could trade that Mempo.. i couldn't afford it EVER in D3 vanilla.. Okey maybe in RMAH but I'm not gonna spend 200+ for pixels.
RIP: Demon Hunter: lvl 50 | Barb: lvl 60 (plvl 5) | Monk: lvl12 & lvl70 (plvl 200)
The game need trading because how the game is design. You cannot survive high level with low level item. Your damage, your life, your armor, your resist, all tie to item. The item level determine those number. For example, I think the earthquake set is one of the coolest set, but if you collect the hold set at level 50, what good is it for you when you level 70? You will have to hunt for the whole set again.
D2, some of the end games item are in the level 40s, like Occulus and you still use it until level 90. Sure, they are better items, but the Occulus is sufficient. YES, every sorc has one and I am fine with it.
Not sure if I got my point across. If you feel that the items are still not interesting enough, or that farming isn't fun, then maybe that side of the game needs to be improved. But that has nothing to do with whether or not coop, or just combat in general, is fun. Simply removing BoA wouldn't make the items better.
I said a long time ago that Blizzard needs to either make a new trade system or just make solo viable. If they don't want people trading but they also haven't made the item hunt fun and rewarding, then that is a major problem. I just don't think "remove BoA" would solve the problem. They would need to go a lot further than that, otherwise we'll just be back to D2.
At this point, I would much rather see rebalancing on droprates and item rolls than yet another complete shift in philosophy. If a few months down the line it becomes apparent that it isn't working, then they might give trading another shot, but there is simply not enough time between now and RoS to make that happen.
In short, if you want trading because you honestly think the act of trading is fun or because you like to socialize in this game, then you and I simply don't agree. If you want trading because you think the itemization in this game is still not up to par, then I think you are asking for the wrong solution to the problem, at least at this point in time.
No, it's the very right solution. BoA and smart drops were supposed to improve the experience. For me, that meant that the struggles of playing self-found on live would be ERADICATED in this system. It meant that I wouldn't be constantly fighting for an upgrade (can we admit that an 80k DPS WD has plenty of room for improvement?). It meant that I wouldn't be finding tons of useless items.
Unfortunately, when I play on the PTR, it's almost a running joke in clan chat anymore, but at least 50% of weapons are STILL USELESS. I still find sources/mojos in Master 60 with 40 average damage. I still find weapons in Master 60 with ~500 DPS because they have no damage (elemental/physical, or %age increase) rolls at all. This shows a fundamental gap in their understanding as to what a useful item is and what the rest of us know it to be.
They repeatedly told us that BoA would allow them to give us all an appropriate experience. It's not good if I log into the PTR and think "I had more fun farming in vanilla." That means that the net sum of BoA, Smart Drops, and Loot 2.0 missed the mark.
Ultimately, though, this isn't about "finding trading fun." It's more about the fact that trying to boil the game down to "just kill monsters" is eliminating variety and variety is the spice of life. Remember the monster density patch? It was awesome. Why? Because it gave us more variety. Yeah there were "best" spots still, but if you decided to go off the beaten path you didn't feel nearly as penalized as you did if you weren't farming Act 3 runs prior to the patch. What BoA does is, in no uncertain terms, put you in a box where the game is only about killing monsters. The moment you tire of killing monsters there's nothing left. You have no option to chill out, take a break, and say "I haven't found <item> and I'm kinda burnt out on farming, let's see if I can make a trade" and allow that new item which makes a new build viable to inject some vitality back into the game for you. It's farm or don't play.
We don't have PvP because, instead of giving us a sandbox PvP much like D2 had, Blizzard wants to define HOW we PvP. This is proving to be a major misstep because there's just no reason for this amazing PvP to have been delayed for almost two years now. Strangely, the approach to PvM is similar. We don't have what we had in D2 because Blizzard is too concerned with telling us how to have fun and much less concerned with understanding what "fun" actually is.
Killing monsters should be most people's primary means of getting gear. But if you get 90% of your gear from monsters and 10% from trades, who gives a shit? The problem with the whole argument is it's absolutist. It comes down to this mentality that if you don't get 100% of your items from monsters then you can't be having fun because "killing monsters is fun." YES. It is fun. But just because something is fun doesn't mean it's the only possible way to garner enjoyment. As an example, I work in a casino. Most people play multiple games despite varying house advantages. Blackjack and Baccarat, typically, have the best odds for the player. But you see people taking a break from Blackjack and Baccarat to play 3-Card Poker or Craps because it gets BORING if all you do is play Blackjack every single fucking minute you spend in the casino even if that's your best shot to win.
What I'm saying is that I don't disagree with the idea that "killing monsters is fun." I disagree with the follow-through on that that says "therefore everyone should do it at all times when playing Diablo 3." It's that absolutist attitude that has directly led to this whole situation. It's black, or white, but not grey. The insistence on treating this as black or white only is stunning coming from Blizzard. They make the big bucks to come up with creative solutions that appeal to a large fanbase. This solution is anything but creative. It's punitive and divisive.
That being said, I'm done posting. I probably will not be buying RoS unless they really change up the PTR and I can log in and think "this is really fun" and not "this is no more fun than vanilla." It's on them to win me back as a customer. I have no qualms about taking my dollars elsewhere. I did it with WoW when they got preachy with the "we feel that you shouldn't be playing alts as much as you did in Cata" shit in MoP and I'll do it with RoS. I'm not going to continue to pump dollar after dollar into a company who lately seems more intent on telling me what I enjoy as opposed to simply delivering an enjoyable product.
If Blizzard were selling oranges and I didn't like the oranges some guy in the store saying "these oranges are tastier than the other stores oranges" wouldn't get me to keep buying them. Similarly this "killing monsters is fun" lecturing that's bordering on patronizing isn't going to convince me that I'm enjoying something that really isn't enjoyable. More focus on making the game fun. Less focus on blowing around hot air trying to convince people that the game is fun. If the game is fun then none of this defense would be necessary. If the game is fun it will speak for itself.
Ciao!
on it and play the game... that's why the RMAH killed it.... Fun to me is getting gear and playing the game.... knowing i can sell pixels easily for hundreds of dollars takes the fun out... i'd rather have hundreds of dollars....
Ok, now I'm certain I didn't get my point across. My point is this: whether or not you can trade has no effect on whether or not killing demons is fun, regardless if you mean solo or coop. Killing demons by yourself should be fun and rewarding, even if you can't take the items that aren't good for you and give them to other people. Killing demons with your friends should be its own reward, not an opportunity to gear each other up. If playing the game isn't fun because all your drops are crap, then that's a problem. Taking BoA out of the game without also introducing some type of new trading system AND/OR improving drops is not the solution to that problem. At this point, it is much more reasonable to expect improvements to itemization than a complete back-pedal on Blizzard's philosophy regarding trading. If we get the improvements to itemization, that's awesome. If, down the road, Blizzard decides to give trading another shot, that's also awesome. BoA itself is not the issue. By "killing demons", I don't mean doing nothing but mindless grinding. The game could absolutely use more variety. Rifts and bounties are a great step in that direction, and I'd love to see more stuff like that. Ladder and PVP are other potentials; I'm not crazy about them, but that's really a whole other discussion. If you want more ways to play the game, that's cool. If you think trading, by itself, is fun and that your experience is somehow worse simply because trading isn't there, then I just don't agree with you. I don't think we need trading for getting loot and improving your character to be rewarding, and I don't think insisting on bringing trade back to the game simply to have more options is a good attitude. More options /= better.
I agree that Blizzard has gone into an extreme here. I'm not a huge fan of trading and I never cared if someone else is trading or not. The issue with the AH was not that it allowed someone to get better gear, the issue was that it was mandatory to use the AH if you wanted to farm higher difficulties. Drops were balanced around the AH, because it was open for everyone and if everyone had a small chance of finding a good item, it meant that this item will flood the AH, which in turn meant that it will have a low price, which meant that everyone would be able to buy it. And this happened when Blizz tuned drop rates, so that people could actually find weapons with DPS higher than 300 (back when there was no MP and each next act was more difficult than the previous). Those good weapons (and not only weapons) flooded the AH, and suddenly Inferno was too easy, so Blizz were forced to introduce MP. By telling all this I try to describe why AH was bad. It was not trading in general, but the ease of access to a global and powerful trading tool. I haven't spent as much time in D2 as I have in D3, but the existence of d2jsp was not bothering me at all. There was a part of the community, that wanted to trade there or buy items for real money or whatever, but I wasn't part of it. And so weren't many others. Some may have even been oblivious to the fact that RMT existed at all. And here's what this BoA change does wrong: it makes an ordinary player like myself unable to play as I used to, it is hurting my experience without giving anything in return. I have a wife and she prefers to play alone, but we like to share our loot with each other. We can't do that anymore. I have a close friend that has more spare time and is playing much more often, and he also likes Wizards while I like melee classes. Thanks to loot 2.0 he has little to no chance to find a piece of gear suitable for me (as do I to find an item for him), and on top of that we can only share items found while farming together. We have guildies from WoW with whom we were going to form a clan, and we can't share items within our clan. It's not even trading - it's sharing with people I like. You can't lend your alt's gear to a friend that recently started to play and wants to farm faster. All of this is frustrating, because those are such fundamental things. I agree with Shaggy and his particular opinion that they areturning an online game into a single-player sandbox. BoA was a cure for this issue with good items with an acceptable chance to drop flooding the AH, but with the AH gone, there's no need for this cure. Especially for the much stronger version of it.
edit: grammar...